England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

Blamire for me shows he has the brains to be an international. Made such a difference when he came on at the weekend, and obviously has age on his side. I do like Singleton though. Decent set there to be vying for 3rd choice along with Dolly.

Assuming the squad doesn't change too much ahead of the Baa Baas what are people wanting to see from the lineups? Generally a difficult match for the players, even more so than a Georgia or Japan as win and it's a scratch side, struggle and it's are the players good enough.

I'd go with something like this myself:

Goodrick-Clarke Singleton Alo
Ewels J Hill
Willis Curry
Chick

Randall Bailey
H-C M Atkinson Ojomoh Radwan
Arundell

Davison Blamire Stuart
Clarke Underhill Robson C atkinson Nowell

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:McGuigan is 6ft and 17st 5lbs...
LCD is 6ft and 17st 7lbs
Jamie George is 5ft 10 and 17st
Jamie Blamire is 6'1 and 18st.

Not alot of difference really in actual physical size.

The stats on McGuigan are way off GF, when he was at Tigers he was listed at 5ft 9 and 15st. He's certainly on the smaller side for a hooker, watch this clip of the weekend (3min 35 onwards) when he pretty much gets out muscled by Alex Mitchell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIPtUDAfgIw

Mitchell is listed as 5ft 10" and looks taller than McGuigan.....getting physically dominated by a scrum half....not a good look for a front row forward.

Blamire is a bit of wrecking ball who stood up physically to a SA last AI. If he can fine tune his darts a bit, he'll be right up there (the same clip above from 4'10 to 4'40 - some great stuff from Blamire). I personally wouldn't have McGuigan or Dolly anywhere near an England squad.

Matt Banahan got tackled by Shane Williams...every physically dominant player has been put on his a$$ at some stage. McGuigan might not be an absolute beast, but hes led a very small group of players (Robinson etc) who have pretty much carried a premiership team this season...and been the hooker of the season in the prem.

To dismiss him so readily is laughable Sgt.

Blamire is physcial a specimen and i really hope he comes good in the nitty gritty of lineout throwing etc. But hes not showing up just yet.

Carried us to the dizzy heights of joint bottom of the league.

I don't see anything in McGuigan that screams International class....and he's also lightweight which doesn't help his cause. Him getting manhandled by a 84kg scrum half was perhaps a bit perfect timing, but I'll stand by the point he's not got the physicality to step up.

Robinson isn't good enough either.....but I'd say the say the same about Ewells and he gets picked.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:McGuigan is 6ft and 17st 5lbs...
LCD is 6ft and 17st 7lbs
Jamie George is 5ft 10 and 17st
Jamie Blamire is 6'1 and 18st.

Not alot of difference really in actual physical size.

The stats on McGuigan are way off GF, when he was at Tigers he was listed at 5ft 9 and 15st. He's certainly on the smaller side for a hooker, watch this clip of the weekend (3min 35 onwards) when he pretty much gets out muscled by Alex Mitchell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIPtUDAfgIw

Mitchell is listed as 5ft 10" and looks taller than McGuigan.....getting physically dominated by a scrum half....not a good look for a front row forward.

Blamire is a bit of wrecking ball who stood up physically to a SA last AI. If he can fine tune his darts a bit, he'll be right up there (the same clip above from 4'10 to 4'40 - some great stuff from Blamire). I personally wouldn't have McGuigan or Dolly anywhere near an England squad.

Matt Banahan got tackled by Shane Williams...every physically dominant player has been put on his a$$ at some stage. McGuigan might not be an absolute beast, but hes led a very small group of players (Robinson etc) who have pretty much carried a premiership team this season...and been the hooker of the season in the prem.

To dismiss him so readily is laughable Sgt.

Blamire is physcial a specimen and i really hope he comes good in the nitty gritty of lineout throwing etc. But hes not showing up just yet.

Carried us to the dizzy heights of joint bottom of the league.

I don't see anything in McGuigan that screams International class....and he's also lightweight which doesn't help his cause. Him getting manhandled by a 84kg scrum half was perhaps a bit perfect timing, but I'll stand by the point he's not got the physicality to step up.

Robinson isn't good enough either.....but I'd say the say the same about Ewells and he gets picked.  

No bother we'll agree to disagree

Excited to see Joe Heyes get a chance in Australia. He's developing into a fantastic young TH. Tigers have managed his development very well to get him a such a good level of experience (99 senior caps so should hit the century over the playoffs) without risking injury by overplaying him whilst still developing physically.

He's always had the physicality but since Borthwick came in as head coach and Aled Walters as S&C coach he's actually dropped around 10kg (he was around 21 stone when concentrating on putting weight), improved his fitness a lot and is now a very good fringe defender as well as a useful carrier.

You don't get many 23-year-old THs who already have his level of exposure. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he leapfrogs Stuart if he gets the opportunity.

Certainly very promising having him coming through KC.

Well no Fin Smith for Scotland either.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well no Fin Smith for Scotland either.

That's good news, he might well be representing England under 20s then.

Saw this on Walesoneline. I do like the last part of the quote pointing towards the fact that even if he doesn't get a cap it seems he's well set on representing us eventually:

'Henry Arundell has revealed that his nerves over entering England's "big dog zone" were eased during a pub session with Ellis Genge and Marcus Smith.

Arundell was called up by Eddie Jones for the first time a fortnight ago following a series of dynamic displays for London Irish and England Under-20s, highlighted by a series of stunning tries.

The 19-year-old full-back's exploits saw him crowned the Gallagher Premiership's breakthrough player of the season on Tuesday night and he could make his senior international debut against the Barbarians at Twickenham on June 19.

Entering the England camp for the first time a fortnight ago was a daunting experience, yet he soon felt comfortable amid a concerted effort from Jones' squad to make newcomers feel at home.

"I was very nervous at first. Most guys who do go in feel like that," Arundell said.

"But a lot of players were very welcoming, more welcoming than I thought they would be, to be honest.

"You are going into the big dog zone and you think everyone will be horrible, but they are a great group of guys and are really looking after me.

"We went to the pub on the Sunday and I sat with Ellis and Marcus and they were both really good to me, having a chat and calming the nerves.

"Being called up by England is the kind of thing you dream about. It sounds like a cliche, but it's true.

"To get it now is obviously very exciting. It doesn't mean I'm going to play. It doesn't mean I'm going to get capped any time soon.

"It is about learning as much as possible so I can go back to the club or possibly either go on tour to Australia with England or play for the under-20s."'

I've heard it said before Ellis tends to be the guy that welcomes people into camp and arranges the social side of things. He speaks highly of Marcus Smith so I assume Marcus likes a bit of social time as well. Good to hear old school values are still present in the game.

That is one area which has a curtain pulled when we all argue over selection more than any other. What are the players like to play with, to train with, to live with for weeks on end? Seen a fair few comments recently around the England football team of the present day and comparisons to the golden generation. I think most people would say that the GG were probably man for man better with a higher ceiling but there were cliques in that group between Man U and Liverpool players, not to mention John Terry in central defence and we know his idea of team building.

Would you start Ted Hill v the Baa Baas?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Would you start Ted Hill v the Baa Baas?

Probably, yes.

Goodrick-Clark, McGuigan (c), Stuart
Hill, Clarke
Hill, Chick, Willis
Randall, Bailey
Atkinson, Joseph
Cokanasiga, Parton, Arundell

Blamire, Rodd, Alo, Ewels, Barbeary, Robson, Atkinson, May.

Something like that for a nice mix. Give the backline a bit of bosh, a bit of pace and a bit of guile. Ted Hill ensures we have three good lineout options without having to use the number 8 who can instead be ready to carry hard if we opt for ball off the top.

I had Underhill on the bench but tbh Hill who could cover 6 and 8 is probably better than getting Curry to do it again.

Quade Cooper, Samu Kerevi and Marika Koroibete are all due to be picked for the Aus tour according to the Guardian. And possibly Skelton.

Id quite like Odowgu in the mix, just to see how he goes either on the wing or at 13.

But generally that side would be pretty good for the Baa Baas. Hill (Lock) getting a run out again.

Never hid that im a big fan of Ted Hill, but i really want to see if he can take that physicality and power to the next level...

All the chat's about Arundell from a LI point of view, but I'm interested to see how Joseph goes if he gets a run in the Baa Baas game.

He's the kind of player that may make an impact in a hurry in the next year or two. Early days, but he's what I'd want to see in a 13. Big enough (touch bigger than his brother), seriously quick, eye for an offload and good defensively.

Otherwise back row will be really interesting. So many different combinations are possible and it's great to see Willis back.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id quite like Odowgu in the mix, just to see how he goes either on the wing or at 13.

His form has been less than good though.

Eddie's gatherings often have a positive effect on players form...

I'd be tempted to get some minutes into Jonny Hill and Jonny May's legs through the Baabaas game.

I'd probably be looking at fringe players from losing playoff semi-finalists too. LH, TH and lock in particular. There are a lot of likely tourists for the summer unavailable if you leave out all involved in the play-offs. Heyes, Collier, Hill and Painter I'd all pick ahead of Shickerling for instance. At scrum-half one of JvP or Mitchell should be available as well for instance. Personally I'd be getting the 3rd/4th choices game time ahead of 5th/6th choices if they are available after the semis. Just makes more sense to me.

1.Rodd
2.Blamire
3.Stuart
4.Clarke
5.Hill
6.Willis
7.Underhill (c)
8.Barbeary

9.Randall
10.Bailey

11.May
12.M Atkinson
13.Joseph
14.Cokanasiga
15.Arundell

16.Singleton
17.Mako/Marler
18.Heyes/Collier/Hill
19.Chessum/Isiekwe/Tizzard
20.T Hill
21.JvP/Mitchell
22.C Atkinson
23.Ojomoh

king_carlos wrote:I'd be tempted to get some minutes into Jonny Hill and Jonny May's legs through the Baabaas game.

I'd probably be looking at fringe players from losing playoff semi-finalists too. LH, TH and lock in particular. There are a lot of likely tourists for the summer unavailable if you leave out all involved in the play-offs. Heyes, Collier, Hill and Painter I'd all pick ahead of Shickerling for instance. At scrum-half one of JvP or Mitchell should be available as well for instance. Personally I'd be getting the 3rd/4th choices game time ahead of 5th/6th choices if they are available after the semis. Just makes more sense to me.

1.Rodd
2.Blamire
3.Stuart
4.Clarke
5.Hill
6.Willis
7.Underhill (c)
8.Barbeary

9.Randall
10.Bailey

11.May
12.M Atkinson
13.Joseph
14.Cokanasiga
15.Arundell

16.Singleton
17.Mako/Marler
18.Heyes/Collier/Hill
19.Chessum/Isiekwe/Tizzard
20.T Hill
21.JvP/Mitchell
22.C Atkinson
23.Ojomoh

Even with players from the top four teams omitted, this is a pretty handy squad you put together.
After Saturday, there should be a veritable host of Sarries and Tigers able to play and crash your squad.

It would be nice to have a better fly half and there's definitely going to be 1 available after the weekend.

7.5

Would you risk some of the top four players for a Baa Baas game? Ie whichever out of Farrell or Marcus is available...would you play them? I wouldnt...its a good chance to have a look at Bailey whos played well in a woeful bath side.

GeordieFalcon wrote:7.5

Would you risk some of the top four players for a Baa Baas game? Ie whichever out of Farrell or Marcus is available...would you play them? I wouldnt...its a good chance to have a look at Bailey whos played well in a woeful bath side.

I always like a bit of experience in there, and with what would be a callow backline yes, I think a Smith, Ford or Farrell would be very beneficial in adding some experienced calm in there. I'm not yet completely sold on either Bailey or Atkinson but the main driver is that bit of a spine for me. The other positions like loosehead prop etc I do see more of a reason to go with the guys in the training squad.

There's a lot of value in this stage at giving Smith as much time with potential backlines as possible, but I am sure he will be hoping not to be available for the BaaBaas game.

If Smith were available I'd be tempted to get him game time with Randall. I'd prefer to see other options to Faz at 12.

I went with Atkinson at 12 as some experience outside Bailey. Nowell and May should be available, both are very experienced. Cokanasiga and Randall are no spring lambs either. Vitally for the 10 discussion it should be a good pack too.

Baabaas will have some cracking players though it seems. Ollivon captain and Penaud already announced. Galthie as coach. Expect a lot of other French players involved. Kruis already announced too. Kolbe, Radrada, Laumape and Finn Russell all rumoured. Danny Care rumoured to have been in touch too - make of that what you will with Quins in the playoffs!

I like the Barbarians trend of getting a current international coach and having a core from that nation. They will still play that Baabaas style but there should be cohesion there to avoid some of the drubbings you can see with completely scratch sides. I'm expecting a really tight but high scoring game. Could be a cracker.

And that's in part the reason why an England team with a bit of experience helps. Too often it's just a disorganised mess with highlights from great individual skill.

So do you expect many Quins to be drafted in?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So do you expect many Quins to be drafted in?

Good question, what's the deal with this?

Could Quins and Saints players make an appearance against the Baa Baas? Not as important for the big names, but would be good to see a guy like Freeman get an opportunity here.

I'd imagine that the squad will be refreshed this week won't it? Doenst mean that Jones will play any of them but he'll want them training.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd imagine that the squad will be refreshed this week won't it? Doenst mean that Jones will play any of them but he'll want them training.

After two pretty bruising playoffs it might be a case of get them into camp and see where they are at.

Freeman for instance had quite a bit of attention from the medics yesterday and had a lot of strapping. He might benefit more from a week off from contact than going into another game.

Freeman played really well from the chunks I seen....I think Steward could have some genuine competition at FB.

Why did Aus leave out Will Skelton and Rory Arnold?

Was expecting Skelton to be in. Perhaps they feel it's too much of a risk with him just coming back from injury or he needs a bit of a reset.

Freeman does look a very good talent at 15.

Suddenly full back has a few options...and competition...

Yeah, really like the look of Freeman. Seems to have a really nice combo of size, speed, vision and ball skills.

In other news the Mail think Care is in line for a recall. They're often on the money with these things

GeordieFalcon wrote:Freeman does look a very good talent at 15.

Suddenly full back has a few options...and competition...

He's a very classy player, lot to like there. He's scored quite a few tries from the wing as well so could conceivably line up alongside Steward in the back three and suddenly we'd be pretty rock solid under the high ball as well as looking more physical ball in hand.

Both of them took heavy knocks yesterday so may walking wounded for a week or 2.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Was expecting Skelton to be in. Perhaps they feel it's too much of a risk with him just coming back from injury or he needs a bit of a reset.

Current Oz selections rules are three players based outside of Australia. Koroibete and Kerevi are nailed on, they've gone with Cooper as the 3rd.

Skelton has never brought his club performances to internationals so I'd argue Arnold is the bigger loss for his set-piece work.

Darcy Swain has been impressive so far for Australia at lock but Izack Rodda is a loss with injury. I was hoping to see that partnership for the 3 tests as realistically we need our second rows to be challenged so they keep improving as they need to.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Both of them took heavy knocks yesterday so may walking wounded for a week or 2.

Freeman always has a lot of strapping round that knee. Hopefully he hasn't irritated anything beyond the normal he took some treatment but then carried on looking fine. Steward's shouldn't have been too serious as otherwise he'd have come off and not Burns for Nadolo.

I'd very much like to see them in tandem AN Other in the back three

Can Johnny Hill be the lock that can help England win the WC alongside Itoje? Is he that level...or become that level

Or does another need to come in before the WC?

Good to see Radwan back in an England squad.  My impression these days is that the back 3 contains two full-backs or that ilk plus an out and out winger.

Steward, Freeman/Arundell and Radwan would be an interesting combination.

cb wrote:Good to see Radwan back in an England squad.  My impression these days is that the back 3 contains two full-backs or that ilk plus an out and out winger.

Steward, Freeman/Arundell and Radwan would be an interesting combination.

Hopefully they give as many of the younger guys a chance as possible next weekend. Despite being likely to benefit from a bit of gametime, it would be a little disappointing if the wings were May/Nowell in this.

Updated squad. Care back in as the headline.

FORWARDS

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Will Collier (Harlequins, 2 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 40 caps)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 9 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 30 caps)
Will Goodrick-Clarke (London Irish, uncapped)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 2 caps)
Sam Jeffries (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 93 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 20 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 28 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 3 caps)

BACKS
Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped)
Mark Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 84 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped)
Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 12 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 69 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 39 caps)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 10 caps)


Nicked from Twitter, but think that make it the following as changes:

Walker for McGuigan
Collier for Alo
Lawes for Clarke
Ludlam for Pearson
Dombrandt for Barbeary
Care & Mitchell for Robson
Smith for Atkinson
Dingwall for Ojomoh
Marchant for Odogwu
Freeman for Parton

cb wrote:Good to see Radwan back in an England squad.  My impression these days is that the back 3 contains two full-backs or that ilk plus an out and out winger.

Steward, Freeman/Arundell and Radwan would be an interesting combination.

Ah I'm bored with 2 full backs.

We have a brick wall now at 15 ...Just put two cracking wingers along side him and work on areas they can improve.....

Well I guess McGuigan should have gone to Ireland for international recognition...

Great for Care but I can't help but deal Barbeary, Ojamoh and Alo (Collier is clas though) should still be there.

Feel sorry for Clarke, Ojomoh and McGuigan. They all deserved a chance with the side. Not really sold on Dingwall, he appears a solid all rounder but isn't going create or carry to a noticeable degree. Jeffries somehow manages to stay in but Clarke is out? Don't get that.

Eddie is obviously looking for something attacking at 9 as he's got some serious creativity in there now. Not a lot of game management competence outside of Mitchell and he's got issues in terms of stamina. I'm interested to see what he does there.

McGuigan especially very unlucky. Not much more he could have done this season to impress. EJ obviously doesn't fancy him.

Looking at it, the squad looks a little lopsided. Tons of back row and outside backs. Hardly any locks or 12s

Well Atkinscan cover 12 for the baa baas...he's just keeping it warm for Farrell.

Disappointed Ojomoh isn't kept on.

Dingwall...is he a 12 or a 13. I thought he was a 13

I hope Eddie's not going to mess Marchant around again...just flippin play him at 13!!!!

Danny Care called back Into the England squad after almost 4years.