England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

What a load of toss from England. Managed to look like they're the ones with 14, and have looked more disjointed than a Barbarians side.

England are awful

Is it too late to cancel the tour?

This is embarassing. Theres nothing positive for me.

I just don't understand what they were working on. So many of the Barbarian's tries were so avoidable, it's not like they were a result of inspirational play. How hard is it to clear the ball?

33 points conceded in the second half. A full-on James Bond barrel roll in that final try.

England are awful

Awful would be an improvement on what they've been like today ...

England got so bad so very very quickly. Beaten at home by a scratch team who were down to 14 for most of the match. I get how the Babaas probably got the rub of the green on the ground etc, but it all feels so bad that only Micky D getting really upset would do it justice.

That lame they're letting Kruis rip the pee put if them.

I can only see a humiliation in Australia....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mind  I'd make a point of smashing Kruis knee so he never walks again.

Thats a disgraceful thing to say.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mind  I'd make a point of smashing Kruis knee so he never walks again.

Wtf.

Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

MichaelT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mind  I'd make a point of smashing Kruis knee so he never walks again.

Thats a disgraceful thing to say.

Whatever

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

I'd also add that Nowell is so far away from when he came through.

The only positive thing to come out of this would be if Jones was sacked and we could put all the sh*t baggage he brings with him to bed and move on. The shirt has been soiled today by so many awful players who can't even catch. Yes the baabaas had some very good players but come on that was p*ss poor. The fact that the best English player on the pitch doesn't want to play for England should speak volumes.

I don't know, I thought Freeman was okay. I agree that Chick struggled to make an impact though. Atkinson on that evidence needs to be nowhere near the squad. I think Rodd suffered from refereeing inconsistency at scrum time, but he is still a young prop, I expect that he shall learn from this.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

Marchant also looked poor. I agree the front five will look a lot different, but the coaches will be the same. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark comes to mind.

I though Smith (outside of the Hollywood moments) had a poor game.

Yoda wrote:The only positive thing to come out of this would be if Jones was sacked and we could put all the sh*t baggage he brings with him to bed and move on. The shirt has been soiled today by so many awful players who can't even catch. Yes the baabaas had some very good players but come on that was p*ss poor. The fact that the best English player on the pitch doesn't want to play for England should speak volumes.

Best coach also English and not involved in the English set-up.

MichaelT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

Marchant also looked poor. I agree the front five will look a lot different, but the coaches will be the same. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark comes to mind.

Meh it's not really England it's just a non capped game. That said I think the next 2 games can really spell out the direction of the team. 2 wins no matter how they come and it's rosy. Although I expect more from the attack.

Cumbrian wrote:I though Smith (outside of the Hollywood moments) had a poor game.

Kicking wasn't great but he put plenty of people through gaps which were then butchered.

MichaelT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

Marchant also looked poor. I agree the front five will look a lot different, but the coaches will be the same. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark comes to mind.

That is the concern, they looked directionless in the six nations and continued the theme today. If the the hype/ analysis is to be believed, Jones is starting to ramp up for the World Cup now. It is difficult to see it though, we look clueless.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

Marchant also looked poor. I agree the front five will look a lot different, but the coaches will be the same. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark comes to mind.

Meh it's not really England it's just a non capped game. That said I think the next 2 games can really spell out the direction of the team. 2 wins no matter how they come and it's rosy. Although I expect more from the attack.

A national team shouldn't be hammered at home by a scratch team down a player for a whole half. Capped game or not.

Australia became very similar to England now under Jones...a very weak underbelly..trying to play this compicsted attacking game.....

Aussies can play it...we can't.

Get Borthwick in to give us some proper English steel then let Smith sort out the flash.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I though Smith (outside of the Hollywood moments) had a poor game.

Kicking wasn't great but he put plenty of people through gaps which were then butchered.

He just didn't seem to control the game, why were we playing in the wrong areas so much? I was literally begging him/ England to kick for territory at times. I guess the game management will come, but I think he has to shoulder as much blame for the performance as others.

Maybe there is merit in having Farrell as the old head there? Couldn't have done much worse that Atkinson and would probably have nailed the kicks at goal too (obviously just conjecture though).

MichaelT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

Marchant also looked poor. I agree the front five will look a lot different, but the coaches will be the same. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark comes to mind.

Meh it's not really England it's just a non capped game. That said I think the next 2 games can really spell out the direction of the team. 2 wins no matter how they come and it's rosy. Although I expect more from the attack.

A national team shouldn't be hammered at home by a scratch team down a player for a whole half. Capped game or not.

Well depends if the national team is a scratch side as well tbf.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

I think that's being kind 7.5. Freeman less bad the others listed. Jones basically picked woefully out of form players (may, Nowell, Underhill, Randell, big Joe, hill) or ones who are clearly not international standard (Ewell's, chick, walker, Atkinson, scinderling, singleton). He hasn't got a clue what he's doing. On a separate note how good is penoud, olivion and that French scrum half who came on. Apart from penoud they can't get into the French team, that's scary! I liked the baabaas tries they got through their own endeavour. It's lucky they didn't do that all match otherwise it could have been 70plus.

Cumbrian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I though Smith (outside of the Hollywood moments) had a poor game.

Kicking wasn't great but he put plenty of people through gaps which were then butchered.

He just didn't seem to control the game, why were we playing in the wrong areas so much?  I was literally begging him/ England to kick for territory at times.  I guess the game management will come, but I think he has to shoulder as much blame for the performance as others.  

Maybe there is merit in having Farrell as the old head there?  Couldn't have done much worse that Atkinson and would probably have nailed the kicks at goal too (obviously just conjecture though).

Farrell is class so I have no problem with him playing as he's been our best kid fielder for years. I've not looked up kicking stats but I reckon Smith would be very near the top percentage wise for England.

Yes, I suspect you are correct on his kicking stats, but he obviously didn't have his eye in today and Farrell would have offered a very good back up option.

MichaelT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

Marchant also looked poor. I agree the front five will look a lot different, but the coaches will be the same. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark comes to mind.

Was given so little ball and could affect outcome because a horrendously talentless forward kept dropping the ball. He had to defend because we couldn't get past five phases. Can't help but feel sorry for the lad having to share the pitch with donkeys. Prime example is when Ewell's blamed walker when he dropped the ball in the lineout even though it was in the bread basket and my 11 year old daughter who's scared of catching anything would have taken it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

Marchant also looked poor. I agree the front five will look a lot different, but the coaches will be the same. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark comes to mind.

Meh it's not really England it's just a non capped game. That said I think the next 2 games can really spell out the direction of the team. 2 wins no matter how they come and it's rosy. Although I expect more from the attack.

A national team shouldn't be hammered at home by a scratch team down a player for a whole half. Capped game or not.

Well depends if the national team is a scratch side as well tbf.

Then it could be down to the coaches then as I originally said if the team set-up was even.

Yoda wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Let's be honest, the team that takes the field against Australia will not really be the same as the one that played today (in both application an personnel), England will play the percentages and (should) be much more coherent.

It was a damn frustrating watch though...

Few things we can learn really from it. Always hard to impress for the new guys but the ones that did get the chance looked poor tbh. Freeman, Chick, Atkinson, Rodd all looked very average.

Marchant also looked poor. I agree the front five will look a lot different, but the coaches will be the same. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark comes to mind.

Was given so little ball and could affect outcome because a horrendously talentless forward kept dropping the ball. He had to defend because we couldn't get past five phases. Can't help but feel sorry for the lad having to share the pitch with donkeys. Prime example is when Ewell's blamed walker when he dropped the ball in the lineout even though it was in the bread basket and my 11 year old daughter who's scared of catching anything would have taken it.

I don't think Marchant is poor, just he looked poor today. Ewels though is shocking and for him to blame others for that line-out shows how bad he is. Its amazing he still gets picked.

Cumbrian wrote:I don't know,  I thought Freeman was okay.  I agree that Chick struggled to make an impact though.  Atkinson on that evidence needs to be nowhere near the squad.  I think Rodd suffered from refereeing inconsistency at scrum time, but he is still a young prop, I expect that he shall learn from this.  

Freeman looked OK. Atkinson looked like a donkey

Ok having calmed down

Ultimately the team will be very different for the Aus games but it's the manner of the performance and loss that was so disappointing.

Too many poor players bringing down a few quality players.

Hopefully Jones is in his 18 month out from a WC and we'll see some big improvements. Bringing in his new complicated attacking structure.

He's clearly praying that a few injury prone, out of form players are able to stay fit and get back to form.

Ie...Nowell just looks a wasted spot these days.
Cokanasiga had some moments in attack but was also very poor at other times. He just doesn't look "Explosive "like he used to....can he get that back.

Marchants a class act...yet looked lost...

Australia will be a big tour for the guys to learn the system...but the 6n will be the one they want to win and put a stamp down.

Pathetically bad performance from England. Dominated in every facet of the game. The half backs did nothing to control the game and it looked more like they were played the scratch system and not the Baabaas. The 20 year old replacement Baabaas scrum half looked streets ahead of both our options, had he been capped yet? Is he EQ?

Smith showed flashes but looks like he needs assistance controlling the game and Atkinson didn't provide that. Hopefully Farrell will. Nowell looked bright when he came on and Freeman solid enough. Curry the only forward to do enough to warrant automatic selection for Aus. Underhill might not make the cut after that display. Kruis was the best English player on the pitch, Eddie should be on the phone begging for one more year.

The walking at the end as the Baabaas made breaks can't be accepted at this level. The Baabaas had more fight.

Hopefully the Randall thing can be put to bed now...and move on with proper 9s.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Pathetically bad performance from England. Dominated in every facet of the game. The half backs did nothing to control the game and it looked more like they were played the scratch system and not the Baabaas. The 20 year old replacement Baabaas scrum half looked streets ahead of both our options, had he been capped yet? Is he EQ?

Smith showed flashes but looks like he needs assistance controlling the game and Atkinson didn't provide that. Hopefully Farrell will. Nowell looked bright when he came on and Freeman solid enough. Curry the only forward to do enough to warrant automatic selection for Aus. Underhill might not make the cut after that display. Kruis was the best English player on the pitch, Eddie should be on the phone begging for one more year.

The walking at the end as the Baabaas made breaks can't be accepted at this level. The Baabaas had more fight.

He won't tour, as he didn't do enough but Chick actually got over the gainline pretty much everytime he ran and gave the forwards a target to hit....

Dombrandt on crutches so maybe a recall for Billy V...the side stepping former juggernaut or Tom Willis

I got the impression that a lot of the more regular players probably felt they just had to turn up today and it would be champagne rugby.

Ewels, Hill, Marchant, May, Norwell, even Underhill - they were well off their top game. Curry I feel is not Captain material. He doesn't seem dynamic enough when the chips are down.

I think that Jones could have done a far better job by having a look at several youngsters without May, Ewels et al. We all know what they're like. If they were to lose, no problem - they're youngsters learning and Jones would have got a good idea how they'd play in the big time. Instead, like the other year when he picked all the out of form Sarries boys, we got no answers from the same old players who aren't doing very well right now.

Today was the same old trudging garbage. Jones and his team of coaches were shown up massively by Galthie and Edwards. It was so bad it was almost embarrassing.

I appreciate that the Australian tour squad will be different but there are glaring issues with our defence and our attack. It needs help and fast.

To be fair I thought Billy looked good yesterday and would have no complaints about bringing him back in.

Ewells must have compromising pictures of Eddie, he just doesn't look up to it at international level. Pretty nonplussed about all of our props today. I wonder if Schickerling will be a rugby pub quiz answer at some point? Perhaps I'm being unkind.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Pathetically bad performance from England. Dominated in every facet of the game. The half backs did nothing to control the game and it looked more like they were played the scratch system and not the Baabaas. The 20 year old replacement Baabaas scrum half looked streets ahead of both our options, had he been capped yet? Is he EQ?

Smith showed flashes but looks like he needs assistance controlling the game and Atkinson didn't provide that. Hopefully Farrell will. Nowell looked bright when he came on and Freeman solid enough. Curry the only forward to do enough to warrant automatic selection for Aus. Underhill might not make the cut after that display. Kruis was the best English player on the pitch, Eddie should be on the phone begging for one more year.

The walking at the end as the Baabaas made breaks can't be accepted at this level. The Baabaas had more fight.

He won't tour, as he didn't do enough but Chick actually got over the gainline pretty much everytime he ran and gave the forwards a target to hit....

Dombrandt on crutches so maybe a recall for Billy V...the side stepping former juggernaut or Tom Willis

Chick was solid, I thought he was a bit unfortunate to get subbed early for Willis. Underhill deserved the shepherds crook. Billy Vunipola was excellent in the game yesterday and Eddie must be contemplating a recall particularly if Dombrandt is out. Unless he's going to go the Ted Hill route?

Ewels really was a passenger in that game. Feel for Freddie Clarke who's been impressive at Glaws all season and who loves to carry, he's the type of player that would have suited a Baabaas game but got dropped in the last training squad reshuffle. Hopefully this is the death knell for Ewels England career and Chessum can take his place instead.

Did not see the game sounds like England had a real mare of a game. Did Care start or come off the bench?

I saw Underhill win one turnover at the breakdown which was more than I remember anyone else doing. A few missed tackles though.

Realistically Jones should have done one of two things. He should have either played his most experienced starting 23 and implemented an attack plan or used it as a possible fixture where all the young lads were selected and see who's got the minerals to play for England against good oppos. He tried to do both and failed miserably. Lads like barbeary, ohc, radwan, Orlando l, Clark could have been given the chance with the proviso that result doesn't matter but it's an opportunity to show what you've got.

majesticimperialman wrote:Did not see the game sounds like England had a real mare of a game. Did Care start or come off the bench?

Came off the bench, Randall started.

One last thing. In addition to everything else, those red alternative jerseys are ugly as a donkey's posterior. How can you win when you look like crap?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Pathetically bad performance from England. Dominated in every facet of the game. The half backs did nothing to control the game and it looked more like they were played the scratch system and not the Baabaas. The 20 year old replacement Baabaas scrum half looked streets ahead of both our options, had he been capped yet? Is he EQ?

Smith showed flashes but looks like he needs assistance controlling the game and Atkinson didn't provide that. Hopefully Farrell will. Nowell looked bright when he came on and Freeman solid enough. Curry the only forward to do enough to warrant automatic selection for Aus. Underhill might not make the cut after that display. Kruis was the best English player on the pitch, Eddie should be on the phone begging for one more year.

The walking at the end as the Baabaas made breaks can't be accepted at this level. The Baabaas had more fight.

He won't tour, as he didn't do enough but Chick actually got over the gainline pretty much everytime he ran and gave the forwards a target to hit....

Dombrandt on crutches so maybe a recall for Billy V...the side stepping former juggernaut or Tom Willis

Chick was solid, I thought he was a bit unfortunate to get subbed early for Willis. Underhill deserved the shepherds crook. Billy Vunipola was excellent in the game yesterday and Eddie must be contemplating a recall particularly if Dombrandt is out. Unless he's going to go the Ted Hill route?

Ewels really was a passenger in that game. Feel for Freddie Clarke who's been impressive at Glaws all season and who loves to carry, he's the type of player that would have suited a Baabaas game but got dropped in the last training squad reshuffle. Hopefully this is the death knell for Ewels England career and Chessum can take his place instead.

Agree Sam, Chessum showed yesterday he was leagues ahead of Ewells at such a young age aswell.

You know I'm a massive Ted Hill fan but I just can't see Jones going with him. Especially when Billy performed like that yesterday....back to his best...nearly. and looks lean and trimmed.

How did Freeman go on today? Did he have a good game and do you think he will play again for England?