The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: perhaps allow different 'entities' to be entered (maybe clubs); .

Please tell me you're not advocating promoting Carmarthen Quins to go and play in Johannesburg.

No.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

TJ wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.

Why would any club in any English league invite you in?

Money.

What money would the welsh bring?  No extra TV money IMO and no away crowsds.  I do not see how there would be any financial advantage. especially as 4 english teams would need to drop out

Broadcasting contract for 4 elite teams entering the Championship.[/quote]

The money on getting promoted to the premiership would dwarf any TV deal. So Ealing Doncaster jersey and pirates would not want them.

I do understand that 30 years ago joining the English leagues would have been the right choice. But it's not 30 years ago and I cannot see any way in which any of the English leagues would invite you in.

TJ wrote:

But with respect I'm not sure the Scottish model is anything to write home about. If I see the evidence of its success

consistently above the welsh teams in the URC.  decent runs in the minnows cup.  Yes we are fighting for top 4 / 6 places in the league not the top this season but the league results speak for themselves

At this moment Glasgow 3rd, Edinburgh 7th both with a decent chance of top 4 finish
Scarlets 9th with an outside chance, Ospreys 11th, cardiff 14th Dragons 15th with no chance of getting into the top half

Both Scots teams in the last 8 of the minnows cup.  are any of the welsh teams involved any more?  there is no doubt the scots are outperforming the welsh in the league and IMO the lack of a wider squad is why

the key is being canny with your recruitment.  Players like Van der Merwe.  Injured, out of contract so we got him cheap and for 3 years he was the top performing winger in the URC

Which would be better for your team - 1 AWJ or a Scott Cummings and a Gilcrest with a bit of cash left over?

Its winning that gets the crowds in  Your internationals will never be able to play more than half the league games ( 10 internationals a year plus half a dozen european cup games means only around 10 league games they can play)

Consistently above us in the URC? This is the first season of the URC! So 1 season (this one)?! OK. But if you meant consistently above us in the PRO league over the last few years, then.....no. Consistently above the Dragons perhaps:

2020/21 season - Ospreys, Scarlets and Blues all finished above Edinburgh and Glasgow.
2019/20 season - Yes Edinburgh and Glasgow finished above the welsh regions.
2018/19 season - Glasgow finished top of their conference, Ospreys, Blues and Scarlets all finished above Edinburgh.
2017-18 season - Glasgow again finished top, Scarlets finished above Edinburgh. Scarlets came 2nd overall to Leinster though.
2016-17 season - Scarlets and Ospreys finished above Glasgow, Cardiff finished above Edinburgh. Scarlets won it.
2015-16 season - Glasgow were above Scarlets, Cardiff and Ospreys, who were all above Edinburgh.
2014-15 season - Glasgow top - Ospreys and Scarlets above Edinburgh.
2013-14 season - Glasgow above Ospreys, Scarlets and Cardiff, who were all above Edinburgh.

I could go further back but then we have Ospreys winning it a few times, etc. I can't see any evidence of being 'consistently above the Welsh teams' there. Glasgow are often above; Edinburgh are usually below two or three Welsh. Only the Dragons fair worse, and everyone describes them as a basket case and a team to be scrapped, so perhaps to be expected.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

TJ wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.

Why would any club in any English league invite you in?

Money.

What money would the welsh bring?  No extra TV money IMO and no away crowsds.  I do not see how there would be any financial advantage. especially as 4 english teams would need to drop out

Broadcasting contract for 4 elite teams entering the Championship.[/quote]

Errmmm - hardly elite teams small crowds d very little TV audience.  You really think Dragons would be a greater TV draw?

I stand corrected Oracle.

TJ wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Broadcasting contract for 4 elite teams entering the Championship.

Errmmm - hardly elite teams small crowds d very little TV audience.  You really think Dragons would be a greater TV draw?

So let's have a think. You reckon that if the Championship teams added 4 tier 1 professional clubs into a structure that got a broadcasting deal with BT / Sky / BBC etc - this would NOT result in more money than the Championship teams are getting at this moment?

yes - because to do so they lose 4 teams. I do not think 4 teams that are failing in the URC would be any draw. I do not believe they would vote for 4 english teams to drop out. I don't believe the english fans are interested in watching these welsh teams and the welsh teams bring a very small audience

It would be tier 2 clubs as they'd be in the championship.

Erm ok. That's probably end of discussion then.

It does stretch the discussion to the end when you say that Sky or whoever would pay more than the current rights are worth to restrict themselves (for seemingly the draw of Welsh clubs) who you said would only play at 3pm on a Saturday. You see that right?

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to expect tv companies to be more interested in an all Welsh league as LD suggests? Doubtful the rights would be worth anywhere near the URC, Prem or French league but at least an attempt could be made to label it as a top tier league, try to negotiate the rights that the top 4 or whatever could join Europe and not lose that money?

More likely to be able to agree a wage cap so none of you can spend over what, say Ebbw Vale, can afford?

TJ wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:But who has that, Ulster and Munster don’t.

Only Leinster do in the URC

Glasgow, Edinburgh, Ulster, Munster IMO.  I do not know enough about the SA teams.  

SA teams have a salary cap of R60 mil. Squad limit of 45.

How come you want your best players to return home, Old Man? Wouldn’t it be better to have them playing overseas with someone else picking up the bill, which then also frees up space for up n coming talent to get game time at the SA franchises?

Irish system works because for most of the players they are pumped through the academies who grow up in the team and become internationals.

Wales aren't bring through the same number of players and many of the new internationals are having to be brought into the Regions as internationals.

As Italy have shown it only takes about 4 years to start to see results in players coming through. That is probably where the WRU should put the money in to.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

TJ wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Broadcasting contract for 4 elite teams entering the Championship.

Errmmm - hardly elite teams small crowds d very little TV audience.  You really think Dragons would be a greater TV draw?

So let's have a think. You reckon that if the Championship teams added 4 tier 1 professional clubs into a structure that got a broadcasting deal with BT / Sky / BBC etc - this would NOT result in more money than the Championship teams are getting at this moment?

How much extra did Saracens bring into the championship with their squad of internationals and record of being one of the top teams in Europe?

The Oracle wrote:How come you want your best players to return home, Old Man? Wouldn’t it be better to have them playing overseas with someone else picking up the bill, which then also frees up space for up n coming talent to get game time at the SA franchises?

That is the theory SARU is touting. But the reality is when all your top players are out of the country, there is no example to follow of how to be a successful international star, there is nobody to lead by example, all the rugby experience and rugby intellect from a player's perspective is lost to overseas clubs.

We won't get all of them back, but a healthy dose are needed in our teams.

Old Man wrote:

The Oracle wrote:How come you want your best players to return home, Old Man? Wouldn’t it be better to have them playing overseas with someone else picking up the bill, which then also frees up space for up n coming talent to get game time at the SA franchises?

That is the theory SARU is touting. But the reality is when all your top players are out of the country, there is no example to follow of how to be a successful international star, there is nobody to lead by example, all the rugby experience and rugby intellect from a player's perspective is lost to overseas clubs.

We won't get all of them back, but a healthy dose are needed in our teams.

Completely agree. Which is why I don’t get it when people say the Welsh regions should stop retaining their international players and let them make way for youngsters, and let the stars go to England and France. Keep as many as possible I say.

Interesting discussion.

Clearly the WRU need to invest more money into its 4 Welsh regions if they want them to survive - but they may not want that.
Instead of Elite 38, pay the salaries of their top 15 test players - regions can top these up if they want/need to.
Spend the competition income from URC and EPCR on contributing to salaries of all remaining senior squad players. And agree say a 5-year timeframe for committing additional investment in players/coaches with regions to reach objective whereby regions pay the balance of salaries through their earned income from gates/sponsors/private monies.
WRU part-fund the development of regions' academies if they want a decent functioning pathway that allows at least 15-20 players get promoted into the senior squads each season - possibly incentivise the regions to do so and/or set quotas on minimum numbers of WQ/NWQs in squads.

I am not on here much anymore, so I decided to log in and see if my idea had taken any momentum, and I have to say I am pleasantly surprised with how many replies it has got.

But sadly, it's the same old from a lot of members. RugbyFan100 has come up with his idea, what he would like, and still we have people swarming around him telling him how wrong he is. To a degree, he is spot on in what he is saying. The WRU do not fund the regions.

Do people realise that all TV monies/prize monies ect... all go through the WRU, the WRU then divvy that money out to all 4 regions. Then there is the small aspect of player access. The regions put a lot of money into producing talent, and this is talent that the WRU need for team Wales, do you think they should get these players for free ? No, they pay for the privilege of having no hold barred access to these players, even to hold tackle bags during the international window. This is the "funding" everybody is talking about. It is not funding.

Next, the RFU want to raise the profile of their second tier. They want to make it more of an asset, you can bet your bottom dollar that putting the 4 Welsh professional regions into that league will do exactly what the RFU want, so it is not in the realms of fantasy to see that happening. By doing this, you will get more of what I suggested, travelling fans boosting the attendances. Also, the teams involved do not have to spend a fortune travelling to away games, they can get to these games by road, and be back the same day. It will be the same for the fans.

Now onto my next point, which is nothing to do with RugbyFan100. The powers to be have not done a good job with the league in all it's formats.

It was OK at the beginning, but it has changed and altered so many times over the years, people do not know what they are following anymore. Also, the decision to put it in on an obscure paywall channel, however good the deal might have been for the average fan has been to the detriment of the league, especially in Wales, it has caused major damage almost killing it off in some parts, if it were not for the hardcore and more stringent followers of the regions, it would be extinct in Wales. Hopefully, now that some games are on terrestrial, we can start to see some sort of revitalisation in the league, but early signs are not good. TBH I have tried watching a lot of it, but I do not know how things are done properly between the two conferences without having to properly wrap my head around it, and I am a hardened rugby fan, God only knows how the casual fan trying to watch it can fathom out how things work.

Then we still have the age old problems, with the standards of refereeing, the lack of more refs from other nations so that we can have more neutrality when it comes to officiating, the scheduling of games, local TMO's. These things have been discussed for years, yet there is nothing being done except for some lip service and token gestures.

Now onto my original point, for me, if we are going to continue with the league, then the WRU need to take drastic steps. I think they should cull one of the regions, and start a new region from scratch. Most likely this would be Dragons to be disbanded, and then start a region up North. But there are other options, we need to keep Ospreys and Cardiff, these are situated in the two big cities in Wales. But they could also disband Scarlets and put a region in the valleys. But the obvious choice is the first one. Dragons have not amounted to much since their inception, and we need to breathe fresh life into rugby in Wales, perhaps trying to peak interest from areas who feel disenfranchised will do this. Start again with a region in North Wales, could it be any worse than what we are seeing with the Dragons ?

Look, these are just my opinions, we all have our own, I do not have all the answers either, if I did, I would not be doing my daily grind every day. But for me, something seriously needs to change in Wales, or pro rugby will be devoured by the monster that is Premiership football. We could lose it all, and that frightens me to no end.

'But sadly, it's the same old from a lot of members. RugbyFan100 has come up with his idea, what he would like, and still we have people swarming around him telling him how wrong he is. To a degree, he is spot on in what he is saying. The WRU do not fund the regions.'

Reminder it's a discussion forum so disagreement will occur, And the funding you talk about is the 80% of wages paid for by the WRU to clubs. It is funding, the teams wouldn't be able to produce that money by themselves. Like it or not the jewel of the crown is the national team, and that's where the big money is.

Having the teams as they are in the Championship may put bums on seats initially but RugyFans point wasn't this but to move them there without prospect of promotion; indeed he said he'd happily see all the stars leave for top level competition if only to have set 3pm Saturday kick offs. So really what you'd see is 2nd tier teams replaced by 2nd tier teams. And how would the RFU get away with the bad press of fewer English teams getting the money but replacing them with Welsh ones? They already get a kicking for lack of funding to the English 2nd tier on the basis it hinders young English players progression.

Refs, well read the comments on the Prem section or the grumbles down under about red cards and you'll see that fans rarely see eye to eye of all of that.

LordDowlais wrote:

TBH I have tried watching a lot of it, but I do not know how things are done properly between the two conferences without having to properly wrap my head around it, and I am a hardened rugby fan, God only knows how the casual fan trying to watch it can fathom out how things work.

 

Err... there aren't two conferences.  There's one table of 16 teams. Each plays the other home or away, and play local derbies at both.  18 games total in regular league games.  It's quite an exciting finish to this season's Championship.  Only a few points separate 2nd to 8th.  

LD only wants agreement with his proposals. Anything else and it’s seen as ‘rounding on the poster’. There’s an element of confirmation bias too, in that if another poster posts something he agrees with then that must be gospel.

We’ve all got opinions and preferences, none are perfect. But some seem more unworkable than others so are bound to be met with more disagreement.

On the suggestion you made, LD. Re. the Dragons - even as I Dragons fan I wouldn’t be completely against them being closed down. I’ve commented this in the past when at my lowest ebb as a supporter! However, Dragons is fully fledged business. You can’t just close it down. You can’t just close down Scarlets either. To use an analogy, my understanding is that you have your own carpet business. If the Welsh Government thought you weren’t making enough money for them they couldn’t just close you down and relocate you elsewhere and give someone else the business. Could they? So why would you be able to do this with Scarlets and Dragons. Maybe Dragons more so as they are WRU owned, but it’s not as clear cut as that as I don’t think they own them outright. I think perhaps they do own the stadium outright though. But I don’t think a sporting governing body has the power to close a business, and they certainly don’t seem to have the willingness to open a brand new one somewhere. They’re too much in debt and there’s too much risk involved, which is why they like the private ownership model.

The Oracle wrote: If the Welsh Government thought you weren’t making enough money for them they couldn’t just close you down and relocate you elsewhere and give someone else the business.

I do not work for the Welsh government.

But we were just forced to vacate our premises to allow a big multi national company to go in there, we had no choice really, and we had to relocate to another unit on the retail park, unfair, yes, but there is nothing we could do about it.

Don't the WRU have to propose what teams they enter into competitions ? They could just say they do not want Dragons in the league anymore. I don't know, but to say they just cant do it is a bit vague.

The Oracle wrote:LD only wants agreement with his proposals. Anything else and it’s seen as ‘rounding on the poster’. There’s an element of confirmation bias too, in that if another poster posts something he agrees with then that must be gospel.

We’ve all got opinions and preferences, none are perfect. But some seem more unworkable than others so are bound to be met with more disagreement.

100% incorrect.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote: If the Welsh Government thought you weren’t making enough money for them they couldn’t just close you down and relocate you elsewhere and give someone else the business.

I do not work for the Welsh government.  

But we were just forced to vacate our premises to allow a big multi national company to go in there, we had no choice really, and we had to relocate to another unit on the retail park, unfair, yes, but there is nothing we could do about it.

Don't the WRU have to propose what teams they enter into competitions ? They could just say they do not want Dragons in the league anymore. I don't know, but to say they just cant do it is a bit vague.

I never said you did work for Welsh government. My point being that even though you pay taxes to the government (I hope) they can’t close you down. Sounds like you don’t own your premises? Perhaps you rent? Therefore, yes someone who owns the premises can relocate you. That’s in their power as the owner of the unit. But the WRU does not own the 3 regions, and only part owns another. They can’t liquidate a business, or whatever the term is, anymore than you or I could close down the WRU.

Entering different teams - yes that is a possibility. But there are bound to be contacts in place that protect the regions as businesses to a certain extent, otherwise they’d be too exposed to the risk of the WRU doing just that and them becoming bankrupt overnight. Bare in mind that as businesses in their own right they have directors, share holders, guarantors, bank loans secured against stuff, etc. No way would they ever be allowed to operate if there was the possibility of the union pulling the plug overnight. They’ve probably got a 5 year agreement or similar, with PRW involved somewhere along the line. Perhaps though this is why outside investment into the regions is so difficult to secure, due to this risk?

Shutting down a team like the Dragons only to start another defeats the purpose somewhat doesn't it? Guess it depends what the aim is though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Shutting down a team like the Dragons only to start another defeats the purpose somewhat doesn't it? Guess it depends what the aim is though.

What purpose would that be ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Shutting down a team like the Dragons only to start another defeats the purpose somewhat doesn't it? Guess it depends what the aim is though.

Particularly when it's just going to be the same players anyway, albeit just re-badged. So you're not likely to say to Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright etc (as "Gwent" boys too), you're now playing for North Wales Dragons.

The teams aren't franchises, so I don't see them doing that. I am also uncertain how much appetite there is for backing in North Wales. I have heard that there are sponsors/backers lined up, but I feel like there would be more noise about it, were that the case.

Well I wrote that guessing, hence the second sentence. Given it was aimed at the Dragons and your comments about being competitive and them not amounting to much my guess was that you'd expect more points on the board?

It's more about trying to breathe fresh life into rugby in Wales than anything else. It doesn't even have to be Dragons. There was talk about merging Ospreys and Scarlets not so long back.

RiscaGame wrote:Particularly when it's just going to be the same players anyway, albeit just re-badged. So you're not likely to say to Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright etc (as "Gwent" boys too), you're now playing for North Wales Dragons.

Why are you looking at it that way ? It's more about the supporters and rejuvenating the sport in Wales.

Look, like it or not, we need to be pragmatic and honest here. If Dragons were underperforming week in week out, but were still drawing in crowds upwards of 8000 each week, then I would say, at least the support is there, lets stick with it. But it's not like that is it ?

Welsh rugby needs a shot in the arm, something else, something to break the mundane. I would not even say a new region would be successful, but we need something drastic. We need to get things going again.

What would you suggest ? Rather than you and Oracle just dismissing ideas, why don't you give some ideas of how we can improve ?

Like I have said, I do not have all the answers.

LordDowlais wrote:

Why are you looking at it that way ? It's more about the supporters and rejuvenating the sport in Wales.

Look, like it or not, we need to be pragmatic and honest here. If Dragons were underperforming week in week out, but were still drawing in crowds upwards of 8000 each week, then I would say, at least the support is there, lets stick with it. But it's not like that is it ?

Welsh rugby needs a shot in the arm, something else, something to break the mundane. I would not even say a new region would be successful, but we need something drastic. We need to get things going again.

What would you suggest ? Rather than you and Oracle just dismissing ideas, why don't you give some ideas of how we can improve ?

Like I have said, I do not have all the answers.

Because it is another point to consider. A bigger point than appeasing potential supporters, who may not be interested in watching what would likely be the same type of performances weekly anyway.

I'm not just dismissing your ideas, but I also find it slightly pointless discussing things when your attitude this entire thread has been about dismissing opinions (when conveniently ignoring the fact you've dismissed mine) and repeating ad infinitem about why you don't bother with this site.

Comes back to the aim? If it's literally getting more people through the gates it may be worth rebranding the dragons and get them up north. Quick scan suggests they get about 3 to5 and half thousand, is that do able up north? Doesn't really impact the other teams though, albeit if they do better you may see them rise above Cardiff.

My thought on you suggesting disbanding is that the money provided by the WRU is then shared among the others to be able to increase the quality of player. Turn a few heads in the English league, better standard of Aussie import etc. Not what you were going for though?


'
Particularly when it's just going to be the same players anyway, albeit just re-badged. So you're not likely to say to Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright etc (as "Gwent" boys too), you're now playing for North Wales Dragons.

The teams aren't franchises, so I don't see them doing that. I am also uncertain how much appetite there is for backing in North Wales. I have heard that there are sponsors/backers lined up, but I feel like there would be more noise about it, were that the case.'

Surely it's going to be slightly tribal the response too? Can't say if Boro were disbanded I'd even consider supporting a re badged Newcastle or other permutations.

RiscaGame wrote:I'm not just dismissing your ideas, but I also find it slightly pointless discussing things when your attitude this entire thread has been about dismissing opinions (when conveniently ignoring the fact you've dismissed mine) and repeating ad infinitem about why you don't bother with this site.

What ideas of yours have I dismissed ? You haven't given any.

Again, you are debating me, rather than the subject. Lets hear your ideas, I would love to discuss them with you.

TJ wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:But who has that, Ulster and Munster don’t.

Only Leinster do in the URC

Glasgow, Edinburgh, Ulster, Munster IMO.  I do not know enough about the SA teams.  

You think Ulster have 35-40 players capable of playing for the 1st XV?
We only started the season with 38 full professionals
Some of those are nowhere near good enough.
It is true the some youngest, on Development contracts, have step into the gap - notably Doak but even so
35-40 is pushing it and some.

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Particularly when it's just going to be the same players anyway, albeit just re-badged. So you're not likely to say to Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright etc (as "Gwent" boys too), you're now playing for North Wales Dragons.

Why are you looking at it that way ? It's more about the supporters and rejuvenating the sport

You are of course right. That response is not in the slightest bit dismissive.

I responded to your initial post on page 1.

RiscaGame wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Why are you looking at it that way ? It's more about the supporters and rejuvenating the sport in Wales.

Look, like it or not, we need to be pragmatic and honest here. If Dragons were underperforming week in week out, but were still drawing in crowds upwards of 8000 each week, then I would say, at least the support is there, lets stick with it. But it's not like that is it ?

Welsh rugby needs a shot in the arm, something else, something to break the mundane. I would not even say a new region would be successful, but we need something drastic. We need to get things going again.

What would you suggest ? Rather than you and Oracle just dismissing ideas, why don't you give some ideas of how we can improve ?

Like I have said, I do not have all the answers.

Because it is another point to consider. A bigger point than appeasing potential supporters, who may not be interested in watching what would likely be the same type of performances weekly anyway.

I'm not just dismissing your ideas, but I also find it slightly pointless discussing things when your attitude this entire thread has been about dismissing opinions (when conveniently ignoring the fact you've dismissed mine) and repeating ad infinitem about why you don't bother with this site.

I gave my ideas, 2nd post on the thread. A detailed post. You’ve just chosen to ignore it completely. Ignorant man.

RiscaGame wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Particularly when it's just going to be the same players anyway, albeit just re-badged. So you're not likely to say to Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright etc (as "Gwent" boys too), you're now playing for North Wales Dragons.

Why are you looking at it that way ? It's more about the supporters and rejuvenating the sport

You are of course right. That response is not in the slightest bit dismissive.

I responded to your initial post on page 1.

Sorry, look, I know you are getting annoyed with me, but I do not know why. Perhaps it's because I suggested that the Dragons should be culled ? But it does not have to be them who get the chop, or indeed anyone. But what would you suggest ?

What initial post on page 1 did you reply to ? My original post to start the topic ?

Why wouldn't Taine Basham or Aaron Wainwright play for another region ?

What was dismissive about my response ? I am only asking why are you looking at it that way ? I can counter that you are being dismissive because you have not given an answer, but I am not really bothered to be honest.

Unfortunately, you cannot get passed debating me, rather than talk about the topic. Which is a shame. Do you think everything is fine with Welsh professional rugby ? If thats what you think, then fine.

'100% there should be a split in the pro and community game. The fact that so many people have a say in it, is a bit mad. The fact that we lost a good rugby brain in Gareth Davies over the man who got voted in, speaks volumes. There are too many on the gravy train in Welsh rugby, as I know all too well as one prominent member of it is at my club.

It was interesting to note a prominent Ospreys board member (I think) state that he believed that all pro teams should be equally funded. Obviously we've had a disparity for a while, with teams being rewarded for success and producing players etc. My problem with the difference in funding is that producing players is pretty subjective, especially if it is related to international selection.

I am a bit of a fan of the mooted changes for the Premiership, of what I believe to be two teams from each "region" plus RGC. If the Premiership is used properly, then it could be a better tool. It has been used quite effectively by Dragons this season, as evidenced by players like Will Reed and other academy prospects like Ben Moa being made available for Newport and Ebbw Vale. I do get the opinion offered that prospects might not learn much playing against semi pro players, but there's currently no other option available and I'd rather the likes of Reed be playing regularly.

Rather than pumping money into vanity projects like a hotel etc, the WRU could be investing that money on state of the art academy centres. During the pandemic, it spoke volumes how Leinster opened a new academy and we had Cardiff and Dragons training on council facilities. That shouldn't be happening (I know Cardiff's was only a temporary measure).

I don't think we will ever reduce teams, nor change them. But the relationship has to change. If there is an appropriate board for the professional game, then the teams can be held to account properly. The WRU's incompetence is more than evident by their running of the Dragons, where for some absurd reason they have renewed Dean Ryan's contract. It is also evident by how we see Byron Hayward getting another decent job, when if anything he should've gone back to building his reputation in the club game. It's insanity that playing budgets aren't decided yet, especially after the supposed fuss last season (Dragons having to panic buy their props/losing Harris etc).

Anyway, I could probably go on longer, but it's time to shut down my laptop. I wanted to chuck some thoughts out though, as there probably is a good discussion to be had here. One final point, is it is good to see WOL start to write articles questioning things, but I also think they and other outlets like Scrum V could do a lot more. Articles like this are only scratching the surface a little, but it's good to read articles like this, rather than lists etc.'


That is one of the most even handed responses I've seen!

The Oracle wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Why are you looking at it that way ? It's more about the supporters and rejuvenating the sport in Wales.

Look, like it or not, we need to be pragmatic and honest here. If Dragons were underperforming week in week out, but were still drawing in crowds upwards of 8000 each week, then I would say, at least the support is there, lets stick with it. But it's not like that is it ?

Welsh rugby needs a shot in the arm, something else, something to break the mundane. I would not even say a new region would be successful, but we need something drastic. We need to get things going again.

What would you suggest ? Rather than you and Oracle just dismissing ideas, why don't you give some ideas of how we can improve ?

Like I have said, I do not have all the answers.

Because it is another point to consider. A bigger point than appeasing potential supporters, who may not be interested in watching what would likely be the same type of performances weekly anyway.

I'm not just dismissing your ideas, but I also find it slightly pointless discussing things when your attitude this entire thread has been about dismissing opinions (when conveniently ignoring the fact you've dismissed mine) and repeating ad infinitem about why you don't bother with this site.

I ganmve my ideas, 2nd post on the thread. A detailed post. You’ve just chosen to ignore it completely. Ignorant man.

Is there any need for this ? Thats the second time you have insulted me on this thread, yet I am being made out to be the bad guy on here. Come on guys.

The Oracle wrote:Now, just like every other proposal this one is riddled with flaws and issues but no plan is ever perfect. Remember, this is just my suggestion. I would like to see 4 pro club sides being entered into Pro16 and Europe on licence. I actually don’t care who at this point but they just have to have the strongest business cases and tick all the boxes for backing, stadia, growth potential, etc. I want it to be an open and transparent application process with those missing out being given clear feedback about why and what they need to do to get a better chance the next time. Maybe a 4 or 5 year licence and then if any of the pro teams are struggling then they are kicked out and the next best option gets a shot. So let’s for argument sake say that Newport, Cardiff, Llanelli and Swansea get the pro licenses. They would then not feature in the semi-pro Welsh prem that sits at a level below the pro league. Obviously this has lots of issues as you now have new businesses such as Ospreys, and you can’t just close them down and transfer their assets to Swansea. So I’m not sure how we approach that. We’d also need to consider the player pathways because for me we do need some sort of ‘regional’ approach to schools and community rugby in terms of the areas of Wales and how it is split. But that would come from the community game, which I agree with many others should be split completely from the pro game in Wales. My feeling is that the pro teams with licences will have a better chance of marketing themselves as clubs than as made up entities; I would like to see a few more spaces for foreign players; and of course I’d like to see a situation where these pro teams have budgets that are comparable with each other (like all Scarlets level). Not sure how we achieve that or whether the WRU should provide more funding to them? But I disagree with a lot of the talk about the WRU bankrolling the current regions. My understanding is that they are much less involved financially than the unions in other nations. So in that respect maybe they should be doing more to underpin the pro game here in Wales.

For the record, I agree with all you have said, and I think that this is a very good idea, and not a hundred miles off what I am thinking. I am at a crossroads with the community game, only because I think that rugby in the community is a key fundamental in Wales, and it should not be sidelined. It's like a ying and yang thing, but the pro game and the community game are symbiotic with each other, I just do not feel that one can exist without the other. The two should be separate, but both need nurturing and looking after, perhaps we need to be in a situation, where the community game and the pro game are run as two separate enterprises, and the only time the paths should cross is for player development. People in charge of clubs below the pro game perhaps should not have so much power over how things are run.

Also, what I like about your idea with regards to pro licenses, is that it gives that fear of failure to the team that is not there at the moment. I will urge them on to improve, or they do not get another go.

What is failure in your view?

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:LD only wants agreement with his proposals. Anything else and it’s seen as ‘rounding on the poster’. There’s an element of confirmation bias too, in that if another poster posts something he agrees with then that must be gospel.

We’ve all got opinions and preferences, none are perfect. But some seem more unworkable than others so are bound to be met with more disagreement.

100% incorrect.

Someone loses all credibility when their ‘proposals’ suggest putting a pro team in North Wales, or even worse the Valleys. I don’t get why someone would suggest that, what is the incentive for them?

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is failure in your view?

Losing games and not making a profit I guess. If you look at Welsh teams and the Regions, they are losing badly from U18 level right up the seniors, Sevens included.

Does the WRU not get the income from the leagues because the URC gives the money to the owners of the team spots and it's up to them what they do with it.

As far as I understand it, the WRU could sell their spots and keep the money as they are leasing out the spots to the 4 Regions. It's the league that sells the TV rights so the league and it's owns are the only ones to are entitled to the profits. The Ospreys etc don't agree their TV deal nor do the WRU so not sure how the Regions don't get their share. URC gets money for entering teams in Europe so again not team but league income.

I am fairly sure a participating team is not entitled to anything the league generates. They are only entitled to x number of games of which they get to pick the location of half.

Semantics for me, Brendan. Yes, you are of course right. The unions enter the teams in the URC and they get the money. Not sure about Europe. I know in the past the monies used to go direct to clubs for Euro comps. Not sure when it changed for the Welsh, but now it goes to the Union first (I think). To look at it another way, do you expect the clubs/regions to compete in competitions for free? I don’t. And therefore their participation in it should be rewarded. Therefore they are ‘owed’ money for being in it. Yes the union could decide to enter different teams (in Wales at least) but I’m sure there are are least some sort of time-bound contracts in place to protect the regions from being suddenly cut out of the competitions by the union. It would be no way to run a business having that hanging over their heads from day to day, so I think when they agree the funding model with the WRU (e.g. x amount of funding for the next two years) that ‘contract’ or agreement includes agreement that those 4 are the teams being entered in the comps as the pro team representatives for Wales. So in that respect there are probably contractual obligations for the wru to actually pass on the tv and comp monies the regions are paid. I don’t think it’s much different to England is it? The the RFU get all of the tv and comp monies? Doubt they’d consider withholding it from the teams that play in those comps and appear on tv.

The only time this has been an issue is this year. The tv and comp monies that should have been passed on to the regions was kept by the union to plug a hole in their own accounts. No other union did this. Most were able to negotiate a raft of support from their respective governments. RFU and IRFU I know secured support for their sports and pro clubs. Instead the union in Wales organised a loan on behalf of the regions, yet the union still spent millions on this new hotel which is why some people are a bit miffed. The regions are essentially playing in the comps for free this year, in a way. None of the tv monies or comp monies has come their way (well, very little. Was it £2m between them?). Which is why there was talk of legal action, etc. So wages and other costs have been paid from the loan.

Not sure what you mean by a split of the profits? But if TV deals were to increase then yes I would expect the entrants to get more funding from it, as passed on via the unions. It would be terrible for a union to just hold onto that and spend it on jollies to France for the blazers. It’s the entrants to the competitions that actually generate the money, after all. No one switches the TV on to watch the WRU. No one goes to stadia to watch the union. So if no entrants are chosen no money would be paid to the unions in the first place. So call it ‘earned’ or ‘owed’ or ‘generated’ or whatever, but for me even though the unions negotiate the deals I still think it is the teams themselves that are entitled to the monies, at least in Wales. Might be a bit different in Ireland as the union is the clubs (provinces) and the clubs are the union.

I don't agree with the WRU decision to not pay during Covid. Also from Welsh podcasts I get the impression that funding for next year hasn't been confirmed yet which is causing problems for next year.

I think the problem is maybe there is no contract between the WRU and private owners in relation to funding and that could be causing the funding issues.

I don't know if the problem is down to the Dragons funding levels and how much the WRU is allowed to put in reverses how much they want to do. But clearly there is something wrong that the WRU can cut off expected funding and there is no legal avenue for the Regions to get it.

The Oracle wrote:Semantics for me, Brendan. Yes, you are of course right. The unions enter the teams in the URC and they get the money. Not sure about Europe. I know in the past the monies used to go direct to clubs for Euro comps. Not sure when it changed for the Welsh, but now it goes to the Union first (I think). To look at it another way, do you expect the clubs/regions to compete in competitions for free? I don’t. And therefore their participation in it should be rewarded. Therefore they are ‘owed’ money for being in it. Yes the union could decide to enter different teams (in Wales at least) but I’m sure there are are least some sort of time-bound contracts in place to protect the regions from being suddenly cut out of the competitions by the union. It would be no way to run a business having that hanging over their heads from day to day, so I think when they agree the funding model with the WRU (e.g. x amount of funding for the next two years) that ‘contract’ or agreement includes agreement that those 4 are the teams being entered in the comps as the pro team representatives for Wales. So in that respect there are probably contractual obligations for the wru to actually pass on the tv and comp monies the regions are paid. I don’t think it’s much different to England is it? The the RFU get all of the tv and comp monies? Doubt they’d consider withholding it from the teams that play in those comps and appear on tv.

The only time this has been an issue is this year. The tv and comp monies that should have been passed on to the regions was kept by the union to plug a hole in their own accounts. No other union did this. Most were able to negotiate a raft of support from their respective governments. RFU and IRFU I know secured support for their sports and pro clubs. Instead the union in Wales organised a loan on behalf of the regions, yet the union still spent millions on this new hotel which is why some people are a bit miffed. The regions are essentially playing in the comps for free this year, in a way. None of the tv monies or comp monies has come their way (well, very little. Was it £2m between them?). Which is why there was talk of legal action, etc. So wages and other costs have been paid from the loan.

Not sure what you mean by a split of the profits? But if TV deals were to increase then yes I would expect the entrants to get more funding from it, as passed on via the unions. It would be terrible for a union to just hold onto that and spend it on jollies to France for the blazers. It’s the entrants to the competitions that actually generate the money, after all. No one switches the TV on to watch the WRU. No one goes to stadia to watch the union. So if no entrants are chosen no money would be paid to the unions in the first place. So call it ‘earned’ or ‘owed’ or ‘generated’ or whatever, but for me even though the unions negotiate the deals I still think it is the teams themselves that are entitled to the monies, at least in Wales. Might be a bit different in Ireland as the union is the clubs (provinces) and the clubs are the union.

From WRU Annual Report:
"Competition income represents amounts received from European Professional Club Rugby, and Celtic Rugby Designated Activity Company in consideration for the participation of teams nominated by the Group in the respective tournaments of those entities. To the extent that the nominated teams have participated in those tournaments the Group remits any competition income, less any costs incurred by the Group in respect of the competitions, to them."
The Annual Report 2021 states that allocations to 3 private regions were £12.6m compared to £25m the previous year.

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Semantics for me, Brendan. Yes, you are of course right. The unions enter the teams in the URC and they get the money. Not sure about Europe. I know in the past the monies used to go direct to clubs for Euro comps. Not sure when it changed for the Welsh, but now it goes to the Union first (I think). To look at it another way, do you expect the clubs/regions to compete in competitions for free? I don’t. And therefore their participation in it should be rewarded. Therefore they are ‘owed’ money for being in it. Yes the union could decide to enter different teams (in Wales at least) but I’m sure there are are least some sort of time-bound contracts in place to protect the regions from being suddenly cut out of the competitions by the union. It would be no way to run a business having that hanging over their heads from day to day, so I think when they agree the funding model with the WRU (e.g. x amount of funding for the next two years) that ‘contract’ or agreement includes agreement that those 4 are the teams being entered in the comps as the pro team representatives for Wales. So in that respect there are probably contractual obligations for the wru to actually pass on the tv and comp monies the regions are paid. I don’t think it’s much different to England is it? The the RFU get all of the tv and comp monies? Doubt they’d consider withholding it from the teams that play in those comps and appear on tv.

The only time this has been an issue is this year. The tv and comp monies that should have been passed on to the regions was kept by the union to plug a hole in their own accounts. No other union did this. Most were able to negotiate a raft of support from their respective governments. RFU and IRFU I know secured support for their sports and pro clubs. Instead the union in Wales organised a loan on behalf of the regions, yet the union still spent millions on this new hotel which is why some people are a bit miffed. The regions are essentially playing in the comps for free this year, in a way. None of the tv monies or comp monies has come their way (well, very little. Was it £2m between them?). Which is why there was talk of legal action, etc. So wages and other costs have been paid from the loan.

Not sure what you mean by a split of the profits? But if TV deals were to increase then yes I would expect the entrants to get more funding from it, as passed on via the unions. It would be terrible for a union to just hold onto that and spend it on jollies to France for the blazers. It’s the entrants to the competitions that actually generate the money, after all. No one switches the TV on to watch the WRU. No one goes to stadia to watch the union. So if no entrants are chosen no money would be paid to the unions in the first place. So call it ‘earned’ or ‘owed’ or ‘generated’ or whatever, but for me even though the unions negotiate the deals I still think it is the teams themselves that are entitled to the monies, at least in Wales. Might be a bit different in Ireland as the union is the clubs (provinces) and the clubs are the union.

From WRU Annual Report:  
"Competition income represents amounts received from European Professional Club Rugby, and Celtic Rugby Designated Activity Company in consideration for the participation of teams nominated by the Group in the respective tournaments of those entities.  To the extent that the nominated teams have participated in those tournaments the Group remits any competition income, less any costs incurred by the Group in respect of the competitions, to them."  
The Annual Report 2021 states that allocations to 3 private regions were £12.6m compared to £25m the previous year.

I think that might have been a grant the WRU secured, which I’ve just read about and which I therefore have to take back in terms of my criticism of them not securing support from government:

https://www.business-live.co.uk/professional-services/banking-finance/wru-refinances-18m-covid-funding-23467934

“The WRU secured a £13.5m Welsh Government grant in March 2021, which was split equally between the four Welsh regions and itself. A further £500,000 was accessed via the Spectator Sports Survival Fund in January 2022.“

So the question is, what happened to the completion and tv monies that year? And why the need to get a £20m loan?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57665959

“ There is no official mention of the £20m loan in the announcement the WRU negotiated for the four regions under the Coronavirus Large Business Interruption Loan Scheme (CLBILS) in 2020.

The loan was to enable Wales' four professional teams to avoid financial collapse during the pandemic after the expected £26m funding to the regions dropped to £3m for the 2020-21 season, due to the impact of Covid-19.”

So £3m, not £2m as I stated originally. £26m down to £3m is a big drop. Hence the £20m loan.