The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is failure in your view?

Losing games and not making a profit I guess. If you look at Welsh teams and the Regions, they are losing badly from U18 level right up the seniors, Sevens included.

Quite the lost! Is it all those that make it a failure or would 2 turnarounds be OK?

The Oracle wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57665959

“ There is no official mention of the £20m loan in the announcement the WRU negotiated for the four regions under the Coronavirus Large Business Interruption Loan Scheme (CLBILS) in 2020.

The loan was to enable Wales' four professional teams to avoid financial collapse during the pandemic after the expected £26m funding to the regions dropped to £3m for the 2020-21 season, due to the impact of Covid-19.”

So £3m, not £2m as I stated originally. £26m down to £3m is a big drop. Hence the £20m loan.

Thanks for that, Oracle.  Reading the Annual Reports for 2020 and 2021, the CBILS loan (£18m) and World Rugby loan (£2m) are mentioned as loans for the regions, in addition to the allocation they gave the 3 regions in 2021 of £12.6m (£25m:2020).  The £12.6m included Competition Income of £6.1m. (this excludes CI of £2m given to Gwent region) and just £6.5m from WRU compared to £19.7m in 2020.

There's a few figures being bandied around, but I think the regions did receive the Comp Income in that year in addition to the loans.

Hmm, thanks Pat. Well it does seem to contradict what I said, but in turn it also seems to contradict the DoRs and chairmen of the regions who seemed to be universal in their claims of a drop to £3m. I don’t believe they were all lying, and I’m sure there was a joint statement about the situation that came out at the time. And there would be no need for a £20m loan if there wasn’t a £20m shortfall. I very much doubt they would have got 50% more funding after the pandemic than they would in a regular year, but that would be the case if they had £20m loan plus £12.6m (plus £2.0 for the Dragons?) from the WRU. And that has dropped back to £23m for this year I believe. I’m no expert at reading accounts though so maybe I’m missing something.

Are you sure this isn’t the loan money somehow accounted for as allocation to the regions?

The Oracle wrote:Hmm, thanks Pat. Well it does seem to contradict what I said, but in turn it also seems to contradict the DoRs and chairmen of the regions who seemed to be universal in their claims of a drop to £3m. I don’t believe they were all lying, and I’m sure there was a joint statement about the situation that came out at the time. And there would be no need for a £20m loan if there wasn’t a £20m shortfall. I very much doubt they would have got 50% more funding after the pandemic than they would in a regular year, but that would be the case if they had £20m loan plus £12.6m (plus £2.0 for the Dragons?) from the WRU. And that has dropped back to £23m for this year I believe. I’m no expert at reading accounts though so maybe I’m missing something.

Are you sure this isn’t the loan money somehow accounted for as allocation to the regions?

Going to your last question first, that's what I initially thought.  Except the amounts don't stack.   i.e. 12.6m is not £20m.   Then I thought that perhaps the regions were discounting the Comp Income from calculations as they expected to receive that no matter what.   Except that would leave £6.5m directly from WRU for the access to players, which is not £3m.   So I don't know how they arrived at the £3m figure.  

By the way, the £13.5m received from Spectator Sports Fund that you referred to above was divided by 5 - £2.7m each.  WRU accounts for two-fifths of that £5.4m under its exceptional income, which would indicate the remainder went directly to the 3 private regions - £2.7m each.  

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is failure in your view?

Losing games and not making a profit I guess.

So all 4 welsh clubs would need to be replaced after 1 season?

Every team bar about 3 in the UK and Ireland loses games and fails to make a profit. I guess they should all be disbanded too?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is failure in your view?

Losing games and not making a profit I guess.

So all 4 welsh clubs would need to be replaced after 1 season?

Every team bar about 3 in the UK and Ireland loses games and fails to make a profit. I guess they should all be disbanded too?

Bit naughty cutting off his quote like that.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is failure in your view?

Losing games and not making a profit I guess.

So all 4 welsh clubs would need to be replaced after 1 season?

Every team bar about 3 in the UK and Ireland loses games and fails to make a profit. I guess they should all be disbanded too?

Now to be fair, not all teams lose the best part of 90% of their games season after season.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is failure in your view?

Losing games and not making a profit I guess.

So all 4 welsh clubs would need to be replaced after 1 season?

Every team bar about 3 in the UK and Ireland loses games and fails to make a profit. I guess they should all be disbanded too?

Now to be fair, not all teams lose the best part of 90% of their games season after season.

What is your view of failure LD, the question was aimed to you following this: 'Also, what I like about your idea with regards to pro licenses, is that it gives that fear of failure to the team that is not there at the moment. I will urge them on to improve, or they do not get another go.'

What team loses 90% of their games season after season?

There are only 4 teams in Wales anywhere near the capability of pro rugby. "Promoting" any other sides like Pontypridd or Merthyr to take their place is ludicrous. There is probably not even the infrastructure to fit camera crews in their grounds. That's before thinking what the results would be when they play away in South Africa and Leinster.

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Hmm, thanks Pat. Well it does seem to contradict what I said, but in turn it also seems to contradict the DoRs and chairmen of the regions who seemed to be universal in their claims of a drop to £3m. I don’t believe they were all lying, and I’m sure there was a joint statement about the situation that came out at the time. And there would be no need for a £20m loan if there wasn’t a £20m shortfall. I very much doubt they would have got 50% more funding after the pandemic than they would in a regular year, but that would be the case if they had £20m loan plus £12.6m (plus £2.0 for the Dragons?) from the WRU. And that has dropped back to £23m for this year I believe. I’m no expert at reading accounts though so maybe I’m missing something.

Are you sure this isn’t the loan money somehow accounted for as allocation to the regions?

Going to your last question first, that's what I initially thought.  Except the amounts don't stack.   i.e. 12.6m is not £20m.   Then I thought that perhaps the regions were discounting the Comp Income from calculations as they expected to receive that no matter what.   Except that would leave £6.5m directly from WRU for the access to players, which is not £3m.   So I don't know how they arrived at the £3m figure.  

By the way, the £13.5m received from Spectator Sports Fund that you referred to above was divided by 5 - £2.7m each.  WRU accounts for two-fifths of that £5.4m under its exceptional income, which would indicate the remainder went directly to the 3 private regions - £2.7m each.  

One thing I've read is that the WRU paid the first installment of the loan for the regions as it was thrust upon them with little notice. And this was when the loan was initially scheduled to be paid back in quite a short time (a few years), so that payment would have been fairly big I would imagine. Not sure how that is accounted for either to be honest.

I know it's probably in their interests to plead poverty, but I really don't think the regions got more post-pandemic than in previous years (repeating myself a bit now). It's just deciphering the accounts that's difficult to do. Not easy.

RiscaGame wrote:What team loses 90% of their games season after season?

I don't know, but I said best part of 90%. Not 90% as a matter of fact.

The Oracle wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Hmm, thanks Pat. Well it does seem to contradict what I said, but in turn it also seems to contradict the DoRs and chairmen of the regions who seemed to be universal in their claims of a drop to £3m. I don’t believe they were all lying, and I’m sure there was a joint statement about the situation that came out at the time. And there would be no need for a £20m loan if there wasn’t a £20m shortfall. I very much doubt they would have got 50% more funding after the pandemic than they would in a regular year, but that would be the case if they had £20m loan plus £12.6m (plus £2.0 for the Dragons?) from the WRU. And that has dropped back to £23m for this year I believe. I’m no expert at reading accounts though so maybe I’m missing something.

Are you sure this isn’t the loan money somehow accounted for as allocation to the regions?

Going to your last question first, that's what I initially thought.  Except the amounts don't stack.   i.e. 12.6m is not £20m.   Then I thought that perhaps the regions were discounting the Comp Income from calculations as they expected to receive that no matter what.   Except that would leave £6.5m directly from WRU for the access to players, which is not £3m.   So I don't know how they arrived at the £3m figure.  

By the way, the £13.5m received from Spectator Sports Fund that you referred to above was divided by 5 - £2.7m each.  WRU accounts for two-fifths of that £5.4m under its exceptional income, which would indicate the remainder went directly to the 3 private regions - £2.7m each.  

One thing I've read is that the WRU paid the first installment of the loan for the regions as it was thrust upon them with little notice.  And this was when  the loan was initially scheduled to be paid back in quite a short time (a few years), so that payment would have been fairly big I would imagine.  Not sure how that is accounted for either to be honest.

I know it's probably in their interests to plead poverty, but I really don't think the regions got more post-pandemic than in previous years (repeating myself a bit now).  It's just deciphering the accounts that's difficult to do. Not easy.

It's pretty easy to see if you look at the official Scarlets accounts.

'WRU Receipts':
2020 - £9.1m
2021 - £3.1m

This is all the regular annual money from the WRU, so money for player release, competition income etc. It doesn't include the goverment loans

RugbyFan100 wrote:There are only 4 teams in Wales anywhere near the capability of pro rugby. "Promoting" any other sides like Pontypridd or Merthyr to take their place is ludicrous. There is probably not even the infrastructure to fit camera crews in their grounds. That's before thinking what the results would be when they play away in South Africa and Leinster.

Why Pontypridd or Merthyr ?

Why not somewhere in North Wales ? Parc Eirias manages for Wales A games. Or there is the Wrexham Association Football Club ground.

Just a thought.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Hmm, thanks Pat. Well it does seem to contradict what I said, but in turn it also seems to contradict the DoRs and chairmen of the regions who seemed to be universal in their claims of a drop to £3m. I don’t believe they were all lying, and I’m sure there was a joint statement about the situation that came out at the time. And there would be no need for a £20m loan if there wasn’t a £20m shortfall. I very much doubt they would have got 50% more funding after the pandemic than they would in a regular year, but that would be the case if they had £20m loan plus £12.6m (plus £2.0 for the Dragons?) from the WRU. And that has dropped back to £23m for this year I believe. I’m no expert at reading accounts though so maybe I’m missing something.

Are you sure this isn’t the loan money somehow accounted for as allocation to the regions?

Going to your last question first, that's what I initially thought.  Except the amounts don't stack.   i.e. 12.6m is not £20m.   Then I thought that perhaps the regions were discounting the Comp Income from calculations as they expected to receive that no matter what.   Except that would leave £6.5m directly from WRU for the access to players, which is not £3m.   So I don't know how they arrived at the £3m figure.  

By the way, the £13.5m received from Spectator Sports Fund that you referred to above was divided by 5 - £2.7m each.  WRU accounts for two-fifths of that £5.4m under its exceptional income, which would indicate the remainder went directly to the 3 private regions - £2.7m each.  

One thing I've read is that the WRU paid the first installment of the loan for the regions as it was thrust upon them with little notice.  And this was when  the loan was initially scheduled to be paid back in quite a short time (a few years), so that payment would have been fairly big I would imagine.  Not sure how that is accounted for either to be honest.

I know it's probably in their interests to plead poverty, but I really don't think the regions got more post-pandemic than in previous years (repeating myself a bit now).  It's just deciphering the accounts that's difficult to do. Not easy.

It's pretty easy to see if you look at the official Scarlets accounts.

'WRU Receipts':
2020 - £9.1m
2021 - £3.1m

This is all the regular annual money from the WRU, so money for player release, competition income etc. It doesn't include the goverment loans

Thanks RugbyFan.  So £3m.  It might have been my misunderstanding then that I thought £3m was the total the 4 regions got between them for that year.  It was described as a reduction from something like £23m to £3m, so I thought that £3m was then divided by 4.  But still £3m each is a big drop, and perhaps is closer to the £12m allocation described in the WRU accounts when multiplied by 4.

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:What team loses 90% of their games season after season?

I don't know, but I said best part of 90%. Not 90% as a matter of fact.

Well however you're dressing it up, you're still unsurprisingly miles off the mark. Nobody loses best part of 90% of their games "season after season". Even Dragons, who it's fair to assume you're going for, are on 84% in their worst season (inc CC games). Just league games is 80%.

Disappointing you want to disrupt your own thread like that. I suggest you stop trying to be smart with me, because I am now of the impression you are deliberately trying to WUM or bait people. With your constant slagging off of this site, it isn't a good look for you.

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Hmm, thanks Pat. Well it does seem to contradict what I said, but in turn it also seems to contradict the DoRs and chairmen of the regions who seemed to be universal in their claims of a drop to £3m. I don’t believe they were all lying, and I’m sure there was a joint statement about the situation that came out at the time. And there would be no need for a £20m loan if there wasn’t a £20m shortfall. I very much doubt they would have got 50% more funding after the pandemic than they would in a regular year, but that would be the case if they had £20m loan plus £12.6m (plus £2.0 for the Dragons?) from the WRU. And that has dropped back to £23m for this year I believe. I’m no expert at reading accounts though so maybe I’m missing something.

Are you sure this isn’t the loan money somehow accounted for as allocation to the regions?

Going to your last question first, that's what I initially thought.  Except the amounts don't stack.   i.e. 12.6m is not £20m.   Then I thought that perhaps the regions were discounting the Comp Income from calculations as they expected to receive that no matter what.   Except that would leave £6.5m directly from WRU for the access to players, which is not £3m.   So I don't know how they arrived at the £3m figure.  

By the way, the £13.5m received from Spectator Sports Fund that you referred to above was divided by 5 - £2.7m each.  WRU accounts for two-fifths of that £5.4m under its exceptional income, which would indicate the remainder went directly to the 3 private regions - £2.7m each.  

One thing I've read is that the WRU paid the first installment of the loan for the regions as it was thrust upon them with little notice.  And this was when  the loan was initially scheduled to be paid back in quite a short time (a few years), so that payment would have been fairly big I would imagine.  Not sure how that is accounted for either to be honest.

I know it's probably in their interests to plead poverty, but I really don't think the regions got more post-pandemic than in previous years (repeating myself a bit now).  It's just deciphering the accounts that's difficult to do. Not easy.

It's pretty easy to see if you look at the official Scarlets accounts.

'WRU Receipts':
2020 - £9.1m
2021 - £3.1m

This is all the regular annual money from the WRU, so money for player release, competition income etc. It doesn't include the goverment loans

Thanks RugbyFan.  So £3m.  It might have been my misunderstanding then that I thought £3m was the total the 4 regions got between them for that year.  It was described as a reduction from something like £23m to £3m, so I thought that £3m was then divided by 4.  But still £3m each is a big drop, and perhaps is closer to the £12m allocation described in the WRU accounts when multiplied by 4.

"After that, due to Covid, there was only £3m left for distribution to the regions this season, in contrast to the expected £26m.

"Out of that £3m, we have received £720,000 as opposed to the £6.2m we were anticipating."

"After that, due to Covid, there was only £3m left for distribution to the regions this season, in contrast to the expected £26m.

"Out of that £3m, we have received £720,000 as opposed to the £6.2m we were anticipating.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-bosses-urged-take-brave-20308160

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Hmm, thanks Pat. Well it does seem to contradict what I said, but in turn it also seems to contradict the DoRs and chairmen of the regions who seemed to be universal in their claims of a drop to £3m. I don’t believe they were all lying, and I’m sure there was a joint statement about the situation that came out at the time. And there would be no need for a £20m loan if there wasn’t a £20m shortfall. I very much doubt they would have got 50% more funding after the pandemic than they would in a regular year, but that would be the case if they had £20m loan plus £12.6m (plus £2.0 for the Dragons?) from the WRU. And that has dropped back to £23m for this year I believe. I’m no expert at reading accounts though so maybe I’m missing something.

Are you sure this isn’t the loan money somehow accounted for as allocation to the regions?

Going to your last question first, that's what I initially thought.  Except the amounts don't stack.   i.e. 12.6m is not £20m.   Then I thought that perhaps the regions were discounting the Comp Income from calculations as they expected to receive that no matter what.   Except that would leave £6.5m directly from WRU for the access to players, which is not £3m.   So I don't know how they arrived at the £3m figure.  

By the way, the £13.5m received from Spectator Sports Fund that you referred to above was divided by 5 - £2.7m each.  WRU accounts for two-fifths of that £5.4m under its exceptional income, which would indicate the remainder went directly to the 3 private regions - £2.7m each.  

One thing I've read is that the WRU paid the first installment of the loan for the regions as it was thrust upon them with little notice.  And this was when  the loan was initially scheduled to be paid back in quite a short time (a few years), so that payment would have been fairly big I would imagine.  Not sure how that is accounted for either to be honest.

I know it's probably in their interests to plead poverty, but I really don't think the regions got more post-pandemic than in previous years (repeating myself a bit now).  It's just deciphering the accounts that's difficult to do. Not easy.

It's pretty easy to see if you look at the official Scarlets accounts.

'WRU Receipts':
2020 - £9.1m
2021 - £3.1m

This is all the regular annual money from the WRU, so money for player release, competition income etc. It doesn't include the goverment loans

Thanks - so competition income of £6.1m was separate and ring-fenced. How did the regions arrive at the figure of £3m total instead of £26m for the PRA distribution?
"After that, due to Covid, there was only £3m left for distribution to the regions this season, in contrast to the expected £26m. Out of that £3m, we have received £720,000 as opposed to the £6.2m we were anticipating." quote from Holland at Cardiff Blues in April 2021

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

Pot Hale wrote:

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

I believe so.

The £26m is everything left over in the pot after £12m given to community rugby and £12m given to the 4 pro clubs for competition money. It obviously never got to that £26m level though.

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:What team loses 90% of their games season after season?

I don't know, but I said best part of 90%. Not 90% as a matter of fact.

Well however you're dressing it up, you're still unsurprisingly miles off the mark. Nobody loses best part of 90% of their games "season after season". Even Dragons, who it's fair to assume you're going for, are on 84% in their worst season (inc CC games). Just league games is 80%.

Disappointing you want to disrupt your own thread like that. I suggest you stop trying to be smart with me, because I am now of the impression you are deliberately trying to WUM or bait people. With your constant slagging off of this site, it isn't a good look for you.

Excuse me.

Where have I been constantly slagging off the site ?

Hi Risca, I have tried PM with you, but I cannot send you one.

I know you have issues with me on here, and I know we have differences, but can we please just draw a line under them and move forwards ? I would really appreciate it if we can get past it all.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

I believe so.

The £26m is everything left over in the pot after £12m given to community rugby and £12m given to the 4 pro clubs for competition money. It obviously never got to that £26m level though.

It's quite an expected increase on previous years - 19.7m the previous year I think. By the way, the £12m in CI was reduced to £8.1m for that year.
Nonetheless, the money from WRU for "access" was stated at £6.5m for the 3 regions in the Annual Report. Perhaps more money went to them in the end. As well as the additional £2.7m each from Govt from Spectator Sport Fund.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

I believe so.

The £26m is everything left over in the pot after £12m given to community rugby and £12m given to the 4 pro clubs for competition money. It obviously never got to that £26m level though.

Do they split it equally between the community game and the Pro game ? I was not aware of that. What ratio do we think it should be ? 50/50 at the moment, and it looks as though the Pro game needs more, but the community club owners will say they need more. Quite the sticking point.

LordDowlais wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:What team loses 90% of their games season after season?

I don't know, but I said best part of 90%. Not 90% as a matter of fact.

Well however you're dressing it up, you're still unsurprisingly miles off the mark. Nobody loses best part of 90% of their games "season after season". Even Dragons, who it's fair to assume you're going for, are on 84% in their worst season (inc CC games). Just league games is 80%.

Disappointing you want to disrupt your own thread like that. I suggest you stop trying to be smart with me, because I am now of the impression you are deliberately trying to WUM or bait people. With your constant slagging off of this site, it isn't a good look for you.

Excuse me.

Where have I been constantly slagging off the site ?

Hi Risca, I have tried PM with you, but I cannot send you one.

I know you have issues with me on here, and I know we have differences, but can we please just draw a line under them and move forwards ? I would really appreciate it if we can get past it all.

I stopped PMs, because you decided to send me constant messages, which you had no right to.

I have asked you to stop disrupting your thread. You have reported the post of mine, so why do you think you have the right to have an answer on here off me too? Stop spouting nonsense like I have issues with you. I have issues when you don't follow instructions, post nonsense like "this is why I don't bother posting on here any more" and accuse posters of rounding on others, just because their opinion dares to differ with yours.

I have asked you to review your posting style before, but you're obviously incapable of that. You're the constant theme when posters get in trouble or when there's an argument around. Own it.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

I believe so.

The £26m is everything left over in the pot after £12m given to community rugby and £12m given to the 4 pro clubs for competition money. It obviously never got to that £26m level though.

Do they split it equally between the community game and the Pro game ? I was not aware of that. What ratio do we think it should be ? 50/50 at the moment, and it looks as though the Pro game needs more, but the community club owners will say they need more. Quite the sticking point.

No - it is not split equally. As you'll see from my above comment - Comp Inc for last year was reduced to 8.1m due to games/crowds being affected. The Community Rugby Board received £10m (£10.5m:2020).

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

I believe so.

The £26m is everything left over in the pot after £12m given to community rugby and £12m given to the 4 pro clubs for competition money. It obviously never got to that £26m level though.

Do they split it equally between the community game and the Pro game ? I was not aware of that. What ratio do we think it should be ? 50/50 at the moment, and it looks as though the Pro game needs more, but the community club owners will say they need more. Quite the sticking point.

No, it's just a coincidence they are similar figures. The community money is always ringfenced every year. It's the only money that is guaranteed every year.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

I believe so.

The £26m is everything left over in the pot after £12m given to community rugby and £12m given to the 4 pro clubs for competition money. It obviously never got to that £26m level though.

Do they split it equally between the community game and the Pro game ? I was not aware of that. What ratio do we think it should be ? 50/50 at the moment, and it looks as though the Pro game needs more, but the community club owners will say they need more. Quite the sticking point.

No, it's just a coincidence they are similar figures. The community money is always ringfenced every year. It's the only money that is guaranteed every year.

Surely Comp Income is ring fenced too - albeit it varies somewhat.
Community money has varied too - 11.7m - 11.8m - 10.5m - 10m in last 4 years.

Ah OK. Was not aware of that. At least that keeps the community game safe each year.

How do you think the monies should be distributed ?

Do you think they Pro teams are paid a reasonable amount for their services to the WRU ? If not how much more do you reckon they should get ?

Also, do they get ALL their TV money and competition money back ? Or are the WRU keeping any of of it for the community game ?

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

I believe so.

The £26m is everything left over in the pot after £12m given to community rugby and £12m given to the 4 pro clubs for competition money. It obviously never got to that £26m level though.

Do they split it equally between the community game and the Pro game ? I was not aware of that. What ratio do we think it should be ? 50/50 at the moment, and it looks as though the Pro game needs more, but the community club owners will say they need more. Quite the sticking point.

No, it's just a coincidence they are similar figures. The community money is always ringfenced every year. It's the only money that is guaranteed every year.

Surely Comp Income is ring fenced too - albeit it varies somewhat.
Community money has varied too - 11.7m - 11.8m - 10.5m - 10m in last 4 years.

It's not guaranteed though. If there was no URC in the pandemic and there was no broadcast money made available, then the WRU wouldn't pass on £11.7m out of kindness. Unlike the community money, which is paid no matter what.

LordDowlais wrote:Ah OK. Was not aware of that. At least that keeps the community game safe each year.



Also, do they get ALL their TV money and competition money back ? Or are the WRU keeping any of of it for the community game ?

No - WRU remit all Comp Income back to 4 Regions.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

I believe so.

The £26m is everything left over in the pot after £12m given to community rugby and £12m given to the 4 pro clubs for competition money. It obviously never got to that £26m level though.

Do they split it equally between the community game and the Pro game ? I was not aware of that. What ratio do we think it should be ? 50/50 at the moment, and it looks as though the Pro game needs more, but the community club owners will say they need more. Quite the sticking point.

No, it's just a coincidence they are similar figures. The community money is always ringfenced every year. It's the only money that is guaranteed every year.

Surely Comp Income is ring fenced too - albeit it varies somewhat.
Community money has varied too - 11.7m - 11.8m - 10.5m - 10m in last 4 years.

It's not guaranteed though. If there was no URC in the pandemic and there was no broadcast money made available, then the WRU wouldn't pass on £11.7m out of kindness. Unlike the community money, which is paid no matter what.

Well yes - if that extreme was reached. However, even in the teeth of a global pandemic that stopped a lot of sport, the URC continued and (reduced) monies were still paid to the Unions. It's relatively guaranteed to the point whereby the regions didn't even think to mention receiving it.

LordDowlais wrote:

How do you think the monies should be distributed ?

The amateur and pro games need to be split. The number of clubs is probably too many for the 4 x regions to be competitive. Ideally the community rugby and sevens rugby money needs to come down by a few million a year. How that is decided is tricky. Everyone wants a slice.

Do you think they Pro teams are paid a reasonable amount for their services to the WRU ?

I read that they give more access to their players but are paid less than the English teams get from their Union. So if this is true, then the answer is no.

If not how much more do you reckon they should get ?

If the WRU want the regions to be beating Leinster, then they need a squad that costs the same as Leinster. The Scarlets squad is massively underperforming given it's cost (a few players are on salaries that are perhaps not befitting their talents). The other 3 regions are about where they should be given their resources.

Also, do they get ALL their TV money and competition money back ? Or are the WRU keeping any of of it for the community game ?

Competition money yes. But WRU has kept much of the money generated by the regions / CVC deal to spend on breweries and hotels. How this is legal remains a mystery to me. I guess they signed up to these deals with the WRU. Until the 4 get a backbone and decide to actually fight for their own destinies, then nothing is going to change. Zero.

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Was £26m total expected excluding any Competition Income?

I believe so.

The £26m is everything left over in the pot after £12m given to community rugby and £12m given to the 4 pro clubs for competition money. It obviously never got to that £26m level though.

Do they split it equally between the community game and the Pro game ? I was not aware of that. What ratio do we think it should be ? 50/50 at the moment, and it looks as though the Pro game needs more, but the community club owners will say they need more. Quite the sticking point.

No, it's just a coincidence they are similar figures. The community money is always ringfenced every year. It's the only money that is guaranteed every year.

Surely Comp Income is ring fenced too - albeit it varies somewhat.
Community money has varied too - 11.7m - 11.8m - 10.5m - 10m in last 4 years.

It's not guaranteed though. If there was no URC in the pandemic and there was no broadcast money made available, then the WRU wouldn't pass on £11.7m out of kindness. Unlike the community money, which is paid no matter what.

Well yes - if that extreme was reached.  However, even in the teeth of a global pandemic that stopped a lot of sport, the URC continued and (reduced) monies were still paid to the Unions.   It's relatively guaranteed to the point whereby the regions didn't even think to mention receiving it.    

It literally only goes through the Union accounts to boost their turnover figure and provide better interest rates / banking covenents etc

It should really go straight to the 4 x regions.

RugbyFan100 wrote:



Competition money yes. But WRU has kept much of the money generated by the regions / CVC deal to spend on breweries and hotels. How this is legal remains a mystery to me. I guess they signed up to these deals with the WRU. Until the 4 get a backbone and decide to actually fight for their own destinies, then nothing is going to change. Zero.

I'd agree with this last point.  The 4 Irish provinces owed €27m to the IRFU for their contributions to the overall player/management salaries across the 19/20 (15 months) and 20/21 seasons.   They sat down and came to an agreement that the Govt Covid support monies of €14.5m (similar to the Spectator Sports Fund of £13.5m) and CVC PRO14 investment monies of €13m would be used to offset the debt and clear the books.    The CVC 6N monies are separate and for the IRFU to decide what to do with.

RugbyFan100 wrote:The amateur and pro games need to be split. The number of clubs is probably too many for the 4 x regions to be competitive. Ideally the community rugby and sevens rugby money needs to come down by a few million a year. How that is decided is tricky. Everyone wants a slice.

Yes, I agree, it is tricky. How could you justify bringing the community game down by a few million a year ? Within the community game there are literally people volunteering to jobs, coaching, upkeep of the facilities, even food in the clubhouse and organising games ect... This is all because of lack of money, and without the community game anything above might as well call it a day. Without the commitment of these people, then we have nothing, not even at pro level.

RugbyFan100 wrote:I read that they give more access to their players but are paid less than the English teams get from their Union. So if this is true, then the answer is no.

Could the regions withhold their players ? If they reckon they are not getting a fair deal. But as you are not sure if this is true, then we will have to leave it open ended.

RugbyFan100 wrote:If the WRU want the regions to be beating Leinster, then they need a squad that costs the same as Leinster. The Scarlets squad is massively underperforming given it's cost (a few players are on salaries that are perhaps not befitting their talents). The other 3 regions are about where they should be given their resources.

This. Yes, it is where I am at. The regions are being slightly mismanaged. It's not just players, but there are a lot of other positions that are being payed that do not get payed at levels below. Perhaps a some restructuring at the regions need to be undertaken ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:Competition money yes. But WRU has kept much of the money generated by the regions / CVC deal to spend on breweries and hotels. How this is legal remains a mystery to me. I guess they signed up to these deals with the WRU. Until the 4 get a backbone and decide to actually fight for their own destinies, then nothing is going to change. Zero.

Is this a matter of fact ? If it is, then the regions are being properly screwed. There is no way that this is legal. Why don't they all get together and demand their money through legal actions ?

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Competition money yes. But WRU has kept much of the money generated by the regions / CVC deal to spend on breweries and hotels. How this is legal remains a mystery to me. I guess they signed up to these deals with the WRU. Until the 4 get a backbone and decide to actually fight for their own destinies, then nothing is going to change. Zero.

Is this a matter of fact ? If it is, then the regions are being properly screwed. There is no way that this is legal. Why don't they all get together and demand their money through legal actions ?

WRU invested in the set up of the PRO14 and are the shareholders in the comp.  CvC paid for a stake to the shareholders.  A stake that will mean the shareholders get less income from the comp unless revenues increase proportionately.   The participant teams are nominated by each shareholder union.  Any return on investment goes to the shareholders in the first instance.

LordDowlais wrote:

Yes, I agree, it is tricky. How could you justify bringing the community game down by a few million a year ? Within the community game there are literally people volunteering to jobs, coaching, upkeep of the facilities, even food in the clubhouse and organising games ect... This is all because of lack of money, and without the community game anything above might as well call it a day. Without the commitment of these people, then we have nothing, not even at pro level.

At the end of the day it is a hobby. They're doing it because they love it and feel they want to put something back into the game. But why should 4 independent businesses send their top employers to work for somebody else and effectively then pay for a hobby? Do amateur clubs in other sports exist because of funding in this way? Archery? Snooker? Cricket? Golf?

If I was to take up a hobby sport on Sundays, would I expect my activity to be funded by other people? I'm not sure why amateur rugby players and coaches in Wales feel this entitlement.

Is this a matter of fact ? If it is, then the regions are being properly screwed. There is no way that this is legal. Why don't they all get together and demand their money through legal actions ?

This is literally why unions should be nowhere near running domestic rugby. The English clubs all got their CVC money didn't they. Because they run their league. Welsh clubs - nope.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Yes, I agree, it is tricky. How could you justify bringing the community game down by a few million a year ? Within the community game there are literally people volunteering to jobs, coaching, upkeep of the facilities, even food in the clubhouse and organising games ect... This is all because of lack of money, and without the community game anything above might as well call it a day. Without the commitment of these people, then we have nothing, not even at pro level.

At the end of the day it is a hobby. They're doing it because they love it and feel they want to put something back into the game. But why should 4 independent businesses send their top employers to work for somebody else and effectively then pay for a hobby? Do amateur clubs in other sports exist because of funding in this way? Archery? Snooker? Cricket? Golf?

If I was to take up a hobby sport on Sundays, would I expect my activity to be funded by other people? I'm not sure why amateur rugby players and coaches in Wales feel this entitlement.

Is this a matter of fact ? If it is, then the regions are being properly screwed. There is no way that this is legal. Why don't they all get together and demand their money through legal actions ?

This is literally why unions should be nowhere near running domestic rugby. The English clubs all got their CVC money didn't they. Because they run their league. Welsh clubs - nope.

A "hobby" sport. Jeez, it's Phil back again in another guise.

RugbyFan100 wrote:At the end of the day it is a hobby. They're doing it because they love it and feel they want to put something back into the game. But why should 4 independent businesses send their top employers to work for somebody else and effectively then pay for a hobby? Do amateur clubs in other sports exist because of funding in this way? Archery? Snooker? Cricket? Golf?

If I was to take up a hobby sport on Sundays, would I expect my activity to be funded by other people? I'm not sure why amateur rugby players and coaches in Wales feel this entitlement.

I do not know how funding for other sports work. But within the rugby community they need all the help they can get, they seriously do, I have been part of fund raising events for clubs in Merthyr, we also sponsor clubs ect just so that the kids can have a home and away strip to play in. For me they do not get enough. They need to pay for the upkeep of the firsts/seconds and all the age grades and in some cases the womens game as well. Seriously, even paying for the flood lights during the winter months costs a fortune.

To say people just do it because it a hobby is a little disingenuous, a lot of people do it, because it is their community, they have had a long bloodline go through the club, some of them are supporters who do it just to keep the club going to give them a sense of being part of something, if they don't who will ?

Do these people not deserve help in trying to strive to keep the heart of their community alive ? I am not talking 50-100 clubs here, I am talking 300-350 clubs, all with people heavily invested within them. They do a lot of good hard work, if more money is taken away from them and given to the regions, then that will create more resentment towards the pro game in Wales, more people will say the WRU do not care about us little folk, which in turn does nothing to help the regions in the long term, which without the community clubs, where are the regions going to get their players ?

People are not asking for this funding to be payed for what they do, they ask for it to keep the lights on, keep the water warm in the changing rooms, mark the pitches, paint the clubhouse, upkeep of the changing rooms, upkeep of their facilities, should the community be putting their hands in their own pockets too keep the game alive in Wales ?

If we cut off the community game, we might as well call it a day, and scrap the pro game as well, and I do not think anybody wants that, do they ?

I'm just answering your questions. The community clubs are amateur clubs for people who have day jobs to go and play and train in their spare time. It is a hobby whether you like the term or not. Nearly £12m are spent on these clubs a year..... In a day and age when the professional leg of the sport in Wales is on it's arse.

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm just answering your questions. The community clubs are amateur clubs for people who have day jobs to go and play and train in their spare time. It is a hobby whether you like the term or not. Nearly £12m are spent on these clubs a year..... In a day and age when the professional leg of the sport in Wales is on it's arse.

They way you say it is almost as though you say the community game is fleecing the pro game, the funding they get is only akin to about 50K per team per year. That will hardly pay the travel costs for the teams throughout the season. Everything else they have to find themselves. Perhaps thats what the regions should do, find the extras themselves.

All the community clubs are asking is for some help from their bosses with the running of the game. Like I said, the Pro game would not exist without the community game. You also have the officials to think of, and washing the kits ect....

These people are keeping the game alive in Wales, it's a shame you do not see the importance of it. But never mind.

I'm just answering your questions wrote:

Yeah, I get that, I am not looking for an argument here

I am just countering your answers to make for a decent debate.

I tend to agree to a certain extent about the amateur game. Not saying to give them nothing, but I think it needs to be much more transparent what the money is spent on. The pro game needs to be accountable, publish accounts, ask permission to sign players, jump through hoops, etc. My understanding is the amateur game is just given the money and told to spend it as they wish. Lots of players get paid in the amateur game too, which is wrong in my view. They do it because another club is doing it and they'd lose players if they didn't, and it just becomes a vicious circle. Undoubtedly some of that WRU money goes to paying amateur players 'wages'. If they had to itemise what the money was spent on then that might be better. Or perhaps the pot should be held by the union and then clubs bid for funding for certain projects? Like a community chest sort of approach. I appreciate that creates more admin costs at the WRU end, but it might help to showcase how much good the union is doing with the money rather than just saying 'here's £50k for everyone, don't spend it all at once'. Not every club needs £50k every season. Some suddenly need some floodlights; someone will suddenly need repairs to the stand; someone will have a hole in their clubhouse roof that needs fixing. But these don't happen to every club every year. So I think it would be nice if they applied for funding from the pot, and anything not spent is rolled over into a bigger pot for the follow season.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm just answering your questions. The community clubs are amateur clubs for people who have day jobs to go and play and train in their spare time. It is a hobby whether you like the term or not. Nearly £12m are spent on these clubs a year..... In a day and age when the professional leg of the sport in Wales is on it's arse.

They way you say it is almost as though you say the community game is fleecing the pro game, the funding they get is only akin to about 50K per team per year. That will hardly pay the travel costs for the teams throughout the season. Everything else they have to find themselves. Perhaps thats what the regions should do, find the extras themselves.

All the community clubs are asking is for some help from their bosses with the running of the game. Like I said, the Pro game would not exist without the community game. You also have the officials to think of, and washing the kits ect....

These people are keeping the game alive in Wales, it's a shame you do not see the importance of it. But never mind.



Yeah, I get that, I am not looking for an argument here

I am just countering your answers to make for a decent debate.

I did not say there should be no community rugby. I'm not sure where you got that from. I said there are too many clubs. Which is blatantly true. £12m going to the amateur side of the game is a huge amount for such a small country. There should be more stringent KPIs for these clubs to exist.

The Oracle wrote:I tend to agree to a certain extent about the amateur game. Not saying to give them nothing, but I think it needs to be much more transparent what the money is spent on.

Yes, 100% agree. Any funding given, should have a dossier on what it has been spent on, and proof of purchases ect should be apparent.

Perhaps the WRU would be wiser employing someone to regulate this type of thing, rather than give the money away right left and center. This person/persons could regulate both the community game and the pro game.

The Oracle wrote:Lots of players get paid in the amateur game too, which is wrong in my view.

Again you are right. This needs to be looked at, but for the most part, the clubs are not using the funding, they have businessmen who "prop up" the payments, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

The Oracle wrote:Or perhaps the pot should be held by the union and then clubs bid for funding for certain projects? Like a community chest sort of approach. I appreciate that creates more admin costs at the WRU end, but it might help to showcase how much good the union is doing with the money rather than just saying 'here's £50k for everyone, don't spend it all at once'. Not every club needs £50k every season. Some suddenly need some floodlights; someone will suddenly need repairs to the stand; someone will have a hole in their clubhouse roof that needs fixing. But these don't happen to every club every year. So I think it would be nice if they applied for funding from the pot, and anything not spent is rolled over into a bigger pot for the follow season.

Again, I agree. I know it sounds easier than actually doing it, but if somebody, I don't know, puts a request for 5K into the union because they have had a quote to fix the railings on their stands, then perhaps they could send somebody out to assess whether it's genuine, and yay or nay the request. Spending money on employing somebody to do this must be better than just handing money over.

RugbyFan100 wrote:I did not say there should be no community rugby. I'm not sure where you got that from. I said there are too many clubs. Which is blatantly true. £12m going to the amateur side of the game is a huge amount for such a small country. There should be more stringent KPIs for these clubs to exist.

Some of these clubs have been around for years, a lot longer than terms like KPI have been around for. If you want a thinning of the heard, then I would suggest you get your tin hat and hunker down.

I only have to mention culling a region and I get tarred and feathered.

LordDowlais wrote: If you want a thinning of the heard, then I would suggest you get your tin hat and hunker down.

Exactly. They would never vote for it. Which is why the game in Wales is well and truly screwed. Any improvement for pro rugby in Wales would likely mean Dai Biff from Aberscrote RFC won't be able to get his annual massive bottle of whisky in the bar. So it's a non starter. Absolutely screwed.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: If you want a thinning of the heard, then I would suggest you get your tin hat and hunker down.

Exactly. They would never vote for it. Which is why the game in Wales is well and truly screwed. Any improvement for pro rugby in Wales would likely mean Dai Biff from Aberscrote RFC won't be able to get his annual massive bottle of whisky in the bar. So it's a non starter. Absolutely screwed.

It's not that simple though is it ?

When you have a club that has been around for 50 years, and a lot of the community is invested in it, even if you take just the players throughout all age grades and you are talking what 100 people ? Then all the families, all the people helping, all the work being put in, then times that by the amount of clubs, you would have at least 100K people baying for your blood, probably a lot more, especially if you were suggesting putting their pride and joy in jeopardy.

You are not just talking about the club itself here, they are much bigger than that within their communities. How many are you talking to be axed for the sake of 4 pro clubs ?

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: If you want a thinning of the heard, then I would suggest you get your tin hat and hunker down.

Exactly. They would never vote for it. Which is why the game in Wales is well and truly screwed. Any improvement for pro rugby in Wales would likely mean Dai Biff from Aberscrote RFC won't be able to get his annual massive bottle of whisky in the bar. So it's a non starter. Absolutely screwed.

It's not that simple though is it ?

When you have a club that has been around for 50 years, and a lot of the community is invested in it, even if you take just the players throughout all age grades and you are talking what 100 people ? Then all the families, all the people helping, all the work being put in, then times that by the amount of clubs, you would have at least 100K people baying for your blood, probably a lot more, especially if you were suggesting putting their pride and joy in jeopardy.  

You are not just talking about the club itself here, they are much bigger than that within their communities. How many are you talking to be axed for the sake of 4 pro clubs ?

Depends on how many more millions of £ it takes for the regions to be competitive.

It's the age old problem:

Q - How do we make the regions more competitive?
A- Fund them more
Q - But where does the money come from?
A - From this money POT x Here >
Q - But that's ridiculous, you can't do that, how will you do that? Nobody would ever allow that.
A - Then the regions will remain uncompetitive

And rinse and repeat.

Answer people's questions, and you just get scorn.

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm just answering your questions. The community clubs are amateur clubs for people who have day jobs to go and play and train in their spare time. It is a hobby whether you like the term or not. Nearly £12m are spent on these clubs a year..... In a day and age when the professional leg of the sport in Wales is on it's arse.

Fair enough.   But is £10-12m actually spent on these clubs over the last few years simply part-time or amateur activity?  Is none of it of benefit to the pro-game?

As I understand it from the last 'normal business' WRU Annual Report in 2019, the breakdown of the CRB "ringfenced" £11.9m spending was:

Community Operational Costs - £4.9m
Community Rugby - £4.5m
Semi-pro clubs - £1.7m
Other Performance Rugby - £0.7m

The AR also states:  "Community rugby costs include coach development, referee costs, school club hub costs, digital strategy investment and insurance which amount to some 60% (2018: 58%) of the total with the balance of the 40% (2018: 42%) comprising staff costs.

Does some part of this expenditure not go towards contributing to the pathway structure for identifying and developing talent for the pro game?   The output or efficacy of the regions' academies is difficult to establish if you simply look at the metric of players who are promoted from there directly into the senior squads of the regions.  Do the semi-pro clubs in Premiership have a bigger/more effective role to play?

At the same time, it may be that there are too many administrative/fixed costs club mouths to feed amongst the amateur clubs, and that some severe culling/amalgamation of clubs (as happened somewhat in Ireland in 70s and 80s) is in order - to put more teams under one amalgamated banner.  Probably heresy to say, but if radical measures need to be taken, so be it.

EDIT: I see you've discussed club culling point already. Ignore.

I think the best answer I have seen is Oracle's answer.

Employ some sort of regulator to assess what ALL clubs are spending the money on. That includes both community and professional teams.

But is it really that simple ? If it is, why isn't it happening ?

More control over the money will mean it is better spent in the correct areas.

LordDowlais wrote:I think the best answer I have seen is Oracle's answer.

Employ some sort of regulator to assess what ALL clubs are spending the money on. That includes both community and professional teams.

But is it really that simple ? If it is, why isn't it happening ?

More control over the money will mean it is better spent in the correct areas.

I'm reminded of the story of Belling the Cat.