The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:It’s ‘neat’ in that it reduces teams and equally splits the country, but not just it’s actually workable in reality.

Why not ?

He just explained that.

Presumably the 2 regions left continue to be in the URC on the same funding? The central funding for the other 2 from the WRU then is split among the Welsh Premiership teams? How much money each would that be and what sort of impact would you see it making?

Would reduce the access the WRU has to the top internationals as they'd most likely jump to the Prem, France and possibly other URC teams though. Potentially a lesser impact to Wales though which is a positive but likely to mean the top stars are needed to be moved on for the youngsters like you see more with Glasgow and Edinburgh?

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:It’s ‘neat’ in that it reduces teams and equally splits the country, but not just it’s actually workable in reality.

Why not ?

He just explained that.

No he explained that there will be the same money for each team, not more. Not why they won't be workable.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:It’s ‘neat’ in that it reduces teams and equally splits the country, but not just it’s actually workable in reality.

Why not ?

He just explained that.

No he explained that there will be the same money for each team, not more. Not why they won't be workable.

No I also explained that these would disenfranchise even more rugby fans, which is one of your current gripes with the regions LD. This would be regional rugby mk2. How did mk1 go?  I explained that fans wouldn’t buy into it. I explained that the WRU can’t just close a businesses down. I explained that, according to the rules of the ground, you can’t have a side called ‘East Wales’ at the Arms Park. Stupid rule but a rule nonetheless. So those are a few of the reasons I feel this is unworkable. You’d also have to buy out the current contracts of players as their employers are the 4 current regions. Who would pay for that? Ouch!

For me the only way that suggestion is workable currently is if you just called a spade a spade and had Cardiff Rugby and Swansea (or Ospreys perhaps) as our only two pro clubs. None of this made up nonsense.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Well, first of all there is some sort of by law that anyone playing at the Arms Park has to have ‘Cardiff’ in the title. But ignoring that, how do Cardiff and Swansea represent East and West Wales? They are slightly more East and West of the very tip of South Wales. What you’re proposing is another regional approach, splitting the country into left and right halves but basing everything away from East and West and as far away as possible from the North. I guess the question is: why would this ‘regional’ compass-based approach work better than the current regional one which only got off the ground because business men agreed to fund it (initially). Do you know if anyone willing to start this sort of thing from scratch?

Swansea and Cardiff make sense, they are the two biggest cities in Wales, and one is on the more easterly side of Wales and the other is on the more westerly side, both have the best infrastructures to deal with things.

That is probably why he is suggesting those two cities.

The Oracle wrote:How do you create these businesses? Do you somehow close down and liquidise the Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues and Dragons? Who pays off their debts and what do you do with their assets? Do the WRU have the power to do that to a business? Or the money to buy them outright so they could then shut them down?

The obvious thing to do, in this scenario, is for the regions to disband, and the WRU foot the bill for an east and west region.

The Oracle wrote:What about fans? Is someone from Wrexham meant to support East Wales then? Cos they’re east of the centre line in Wales. Is that how it works? Will you really get the South East (Cardiff, Newport, Bridgend and valleys) supporting this more than the current teams get alone?

South east would obviously be Cardiff and Newport, and South west would obviously be Swansea and Llanelli. See how they go, then if they do better than what we currently have, which in all honesty is not going to be hard, then start looking at a north region.

The Oracle wrote:It’s ‘neat’ in that it reduces teams and equally splits the country, but not just it’s actually workable in reality.

Why not ?

But Swansea don't own their own Stadium...

The Oracle wrote:For me the only way that suggestion is workable currently is if you just called a spade a spade and had Cardiff Rugby and Swansea (or Ospreys perhaps) as our only two pro clubs. None of this made up nonsense.

Yes I agree.

Oakdene wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Well, first of all there is some sort of by law that anyone playing at the Arms Park has to have ‘Cardiff’ in the title. But ignoring that, how do Cardiff and Swansea represent East and West Wales? They are slightly more East and West of the very tip of South Wales. What you’re proposing is another regional approach, splitting the country into left and right halves but basing everything away from East and West and as far away as possible from the North. I guess the question is: why would this ‘regional’ compass-based approach work better than the current regional one which only got off the ground because business men agreed to fund it (initially). Do you know if anyone willing to start this sort of thing from scratch?

Swansea and Cardiff make sense, they are the two biggest cities in Wales, and one is on the more easterly side of Wales and the other is on the more westerly side, both have the best infrastructures to deal with things.

That is probably why he is suggesting those two cities.

The Oracle wrote:How do you create these businesses? Do you somehow close down and liquidise the Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues and Dragons? Who pays off their debts and what do you do with their assets? Do the WRU have the power to do that to a business? Or the money to buy them outright so they could then shut them down?

The obvious thing to do, in this scenario, is for the regions to disband, and the WRU foot the bill for an east and west region.

The Oracle wrote:What about fans? Is someone from Wrexham meant to support East Wales then? Cos they’re east of the centre line in Wales. Is that how it works? Will you really get the South East (Cardiff, Newport, Bridgend and valleys) supporting this more than the current teams get alone?

South east would obviously be Cardiff and Newport, and South west would obviously be Swansea and Llanelli. See how they go, then if they do better than what we currently have, which in all honesty is not going to be hard, then start looking at a north region.

The Oracle wrote:It’s ‘neat’ in that it reduces teams and equally splits the country, but not just it’s actually workable in reality.

Why not ?

But Swansea don't own their own Stadium...

Neither do Cardiff.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:For me the only way that suggestion is workable currently is if you just called a spade a spade and had Cardiff Rugby and Swansea (or Ospreys perhaps) as our only two pro clubs. None of this made up nonsense.

Yes I agree.

Well that’s very different from a new regional approach of East and West and new entities being created, the regions disbanded, the WRU running it all. This (above) is a return to pro clubs! Make your mind up!

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:For me the only way that suggestion is workable currently is if you just called a spade a spade and had Cardiff Rugby and Swansea (or Ospreys perhaps) as our only two pro clubs. None of this made up nonsense.

Yes I agree.

Well that’s very different from a new regional approach of East and West and new entities being created, the regions disbanded, the WRU running it all. This (above) is a return to pro clubs! Make your mind up!

I am just agreeing with you with this situation, thats all Christ, what is the matter with you ?

Like you said, the only way that "suggestion" would work.

Instead of calling them east and west. Call them Swansea and Cardiff.

Times article today on plans to cut Welsh regions from 4 to 3 in 2 years time.






The Welsh Rugby Union have put forward proposals to cut the number of professional sides in Wales from four to three in two years’ time.

Cardiff, Dragons, Ospreys, and Scarlets have struggled for success over several years with crowd numbers dwindling in Wales. All four sides have posted significant losses, which have been exacerbated by the Covid pandemic, while they have been saddled with a collective £20 million bank loan that will have to be paid back over 20 years.

The options on the table — all of which are likely to meet significant opposition — are axing either the Ospreys or Dragons, or an Ospreys and Scarlets merger.



The WRU recommendations come following a report from consultants Oakwell Sports Advisory and will be put to the Professional Rugby Board — the body that runs the professional game in Wales — at their next meeting on May 11.

WRU chief executive Steve Phillips will put forward a long-term funding model based on supporting three teams. At present the professional sides receive £23.5 million between them which is set to be cut to £18 million in the 2023-24 season.

With the Irish Rugby Union spending between €50-60 million on its professional game, and the Scottish Rugby Union investing £20 million into both Edinburgh and Glasgow, the Welsh sides are set to fall further behind their rivals in Europe, and the United Rugby Championship.


Meetings have been taking place with the WRU, and newly appointed PRB chairman Malcolm Wall over the future direction of professional rugby in Wales.

The proposals are creating a toxic environment within Welsh rugby with each professional side reluctant to fall on its sword, but there is an acceptance across the board that things have to change following a Six Nations campaign which resulted in Wales’s men’s team losing to Italy at home for the first time in their history.

If a professional side was to be cut then the player pool would be reduced to 135, which is a long way behind the 215 professional players in the Irish system, and the 238 in New Zealand.

It would be the second time in the chequered 20-year history of regional rugby a team will have been axed. Former chief executive David Moffett carved nine teams into five in 2003 before moving down to four a year later. A proposed merger between Ospreys and Scarlets two years ago ran into ferocious opposition and was ultimately shelved.

Ospreys are majority owned by British Virgin Islands based company Y-11, but as with the other three regions, it is understood they would cease to operate without WRU funding.

There is also set to be a change in how Wales’ professional players are paid. Presently, the WRU pay 80 per cent of the salaries of the top 38 players in Wales with their regions taking on 20 per cent of the wage. The Oakwell report has suggested creating a new agreement which would entail creating a Welsh Elite Player squad, similar to the model undertaken with the Rugby Football Union’s EPS, with the WRU paying its professional sides for the services of their players.


“Welsh rugby is heading into the abyss,” said a high-ranking Welsh rugby figure who did not want to be named. “The game in this country is at a crossroads following what has been a terrible Six Nations campaign. For too long Warren Gatland papered over the cracks in the overall game in Wales with success at Test level, but the rot has finally spread to the national side which is the only reason the WRU are planning to do something drastic.

“There’s enough money in the game in Wales to have four competitive professional sides but the WRU’s answer is not to invest in the game but to build a hotel and potentially cut a region.”

Thanks for putting the article in, as I know it was paywalled.

Be interesting to see the PRBs response to this. I can’t see it being accepted, but then you never know.

I think it’s time for people to call out the WRU over things like the aforementioned hotel etc. Time for Buttress to make a stand and he certainly needs to show some progress with the takeover etc.

I don’t see it being any other team, other than Dragons. But then we potentially have things like the cabbage patch land and if Buttress makes his mind up on what we are, we could also trade off some sort of history.

“There’s enough money in the game in Wales to have four competitive professional sides but the WRU’s answer is not to invest in the game but to build a hotel and potentially cut a region.”

Ah, this.

Thanks for posting BigeGee.

Agree with the above that it is most likely to be the Dragons. That would be fairest in terms of results, etc. And as some of us Dragons fans have stated previously, we wouldn’t be totally against Dragons going if it was for the sake of the game in Wales. But for me I just don’t think it’s the right approach. I think it’s defeatist and just resigning us to fewer pro players. What next? 2 teams? Then what happens if one of those does poorly? 1?! Remember, we cut from 10 (or was it 12?) to 5 in order to condense the talent. That was supposed to be the answer. One of them didn’t work out so they cut one and that was meant to lead to even more talent condensing. Now there’s not enough talent again between the 4 so we’re considering cutting again down to 3. Maybe cutting isn’t be answer and there are other things that are causing the drop in number of top level players? I just think it’s a slippery slope and will end in (more) tears further down the line.

What are the outcomes of this? Dragons have maybe 8-10 top players who can be redistributed. So 3 players to each of the remaining regions. That’s not going to make them that much better. We’d also lose a quarter of the TV and competition money wouldn’t we? They’re not going to pay us the same as now for fewer entrants, although as shareholders of the Pro/Celtic organisation maybe the WRU share would stay the same? If so then just perhaps a bit more money when split by 3 rather than 4. The article states that the union is going to reduce regional funding from from £23m to £18m in a couple of seasons, so not much more funding between 3 than the current 4 get (about £6m each), but of course if they kept all 4 and reduced to £18m then £4.5 each. So maybe that’s the real driver? Sounds like Scotland and Ireland are increasing funding while we’re decreasing. Just can’t see where the improvements are going to come from with this move. And surely improvements are the whole point of change? Or is it just a cost cutting exercise?

On another note: I feel for the team that’s culled - forced to take out a circa £5m loan this year and then no way to pay it back in 2 years when they’re cut!

Thanks for posting the article BigGee. Cutting down from 4 to 3 teams would be a good start I guess

If it happens then my money would have to be on the Dragons. If that did happen then the Cardiff Blues Rugby RFC Rags or whatever they are called now would technically become a south east Wales region in terms of how it is run

A rebrand would be great to try and reach out to all the Gwent and RCT/Merthyr Valleys. I doubt that would ever happen though sadly

Why would you try to rebrand Cardiff into something new when we have 20 years experience of made up entities that tells us it doesn’t work?!

an interesting piece from the guardian showing a lot of the issues you talk about with welsh rugby are shared with everyone below the top level in England
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/03/rugby-union-in-limbo-riches-at-the-top-and-everyone-else-is-starving

TJ wrote:an interesting piece from the guardian showing a lot of the issues you talk about with welsh rugby are shared with everyone below the top level in England
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/03/rugby-union-in-limbo-riches-at-the-top-and-everyone-else-is-starving

Very much following the model of the football premiership.

These 4 proposals are certainly interesting. A lot of it has been discussed on this thread but seems a touch more realistic. The dropping of 1 of the teams is obviously the one which catches the headlines but it is a cost saving measure, estimated between £6m to £8.9m. And that money doesn't seem to be hallmarked for sharing among the remaining regions or the Welsh Prem. The 80% up for discussion too, with a move to match the English system.

Does seem from the BBC write up that these are to make the regions more competitive rather than with a focus on the national team.

Missed the bit where the WRU are considering cutting the Welsh Prem to 9 teams too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:an interesting piece from the guardian showing a lot of the issues you talk about with welsh rugby are shared with everyone below the top level in England
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/03/rugby-union-in-limbo-riches-at-the-top-and-everyone-else-is-starving

Very much following the model of the football premiership.

Not so sure about that.

Non premiership football clubs still pull large crowds and their players make decent money, better in many cases than international rugby players.

Clearly it does taper off as you go down the lesgues, but on nothing like the scale that rugby does, which is effectively the edge of a cliff when you leave the fully pro game.

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:an interesting piece from the guardian showing a lot of the issues you talk about with welsh rugby are shared with everyone below the top level in England
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/03/rugby-union-in-limbo-riches-at-the-top-and-everyone-else-is-starving

Very much following the model of the football premiership.

Not so sure about that.

Non premiership football clubs still pull large crowds and their players make decent money, better in many cases than international rugby players.

Clearly it does taper off as you go down the leagues, but on nothing like the scale that rugby does, which is effectively the edge of a cliff when you leave the fully pro game.

Tapers off massively. Consider the 90s at around the time big tv money came in. That's when it switched from about crowds in the stadia to a focus on selling the brand abroad and focus on TV. It's been made worse by the Champs League but the Prem is now the jewel in the tv crown. Parachute payments are now required to stop clubs relegated from the prem going under but it also largely makes promotion a foregone conclusion. The change in where the funding has come from means that the prem teams, and the top teams of them can now largley stock pile players, with a lot of the stars of the Championship loanees from the league above. I can't imagine as a Boro fan ever seeing the Brazilian young player of the year ever signing for us again and then winning English player of the year in this day and age. I'm not saying that wages match up, simply saying the view at the top is about taking as much as you can get and safeguarding your position.

The Oracle wrote:Why would you try to rebrand Cardiff into something new when we have 20 years experience of made up entities that tells us it doesn’t work?!

Because they want a 'valleys' region / superclub based in Pontypridd, the capital of 'the valleys'.... Merthyr won't like it mind but it's going to work .

mikey_dragon wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Why would you try to rebrand Cardiff into something new when we have 20 years experience of made up entities that tells us it doesn’t work?!

Because they want a 'valleys' region / superclub based in Pontypridd, the capital of 'the valleys'.... Merthyr won't like it mind but it's going to work .

Whilst there are a few whose agenda is obviously that, I don't think that's the case on here.

I think BBC expand on it slightly? Interesting to note that it suggests investment into the Pro game is the same as other Unions, although that seems a little generic so would need further explanation. The biggest takeaway has to be the Governance though.

If there was a new WPGA, the pro teams really need to fight their corner next time.

BBC wrote:There are also plans to introduce a new Welsh Professional Game agreement (WPGA) and create a centralised commercial body and strategy.

These recommendations could simply be dismissed by the PRB.

The report produces six key findings including stating the WRU commercial performance is in line with its peers, investment into the pro game, regions and community is in line with other unions, and Welsh rugby governance procedures and responsibilities need reviewing and realigning.

It also says "Welsh rugby must immediately develop a sustainable commercial funding model for the next 10 years."

The WRU threat of reducing the regions is becoming their go to opening gambit every time the deal with the regions needs renewing. Just off the top of my head we have had this threat when central contracts were handed out and WRUburton debacle, with the end if Heiniken Cup and RCC forming, with Ospreys folding/merging a few seasons back. I can’t help feeling we will have a year of them turning fabs against each other hoping to keep their team, followed by a fudged agreement that keeps them all and sees the WRU avoid having to actually put hands in their pockets or make structural changes to the fact the pro game is run by amateur clubs.

BigGee wrote:I have not needed the red pen for a while, but lets keep the personal stuff out of it please

My bad. I think the person I got shirty with could also do with leaving out slating a place and the people who live there as that's personal also. But I apologise.

RiscaGame wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Why would you try to rebrand Cardiff into something new when we have 20 years experience of made up entities that tells us it doesn’t work?!

Because they want a 'valleys' region / superclub based in Pontypridd, the capital of 'the valleys'.... Merthyr won't like it mind but it's going to work .

Whilst there are a few whose agenda is obviously that, I don't think that's the case on here.

There aren't many Welsh on here, but there are at least 2 or 3 who seem to want this. Personally I don't think cutting or re-arranging what we have is a good idea. Nice to also see that the followers of all 4 Regions share the same opinion on this latest proposal, that it's a load of guff as per from the WRU.

It's a cost cutting exercise; is it Dragons who get the most money?

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a cost cutting exercise; is it Dragons who get the most money?

I have lifted this from elsewhere


Source: WRU annual report 2021 - https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/wru/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/22180334/WRU3048-Annual-Report-2020-2021_FINAL.pdf

WRU investments in "WRU Gwent Region Limited":
* 2020: £7.1m
* 2021: £7.9m ()

WRU investments in the other three regions:
* 2020: £25m
* 2021: £12.6m ()

WRU investment in community rugby:
* 2020: £4.5m
* 2021: £4.5m ()

In 2021, WRU Gwent headcount actually grew, from 87 to 93.



So theoretically the biggest ‘saving’ would come from either re-privatisation of the Dragons, or disbanding them. However, that would then possibly open up the WRU to questions about why they didn’t do it sooner, etc etc.

Personally I can’t see any way getting rid of any of the regions works. Ignoring lowering the amount of pro players, making regions have more internationals so missing more of their first team for chunks of the season, and technically ending up with the regions closer together (farthest two apart if Scarlets/Dragons go), there are deals with URC and RCC around wales putting in four teams. So would the tv money and sponsorship from these completions be cut by 25% too.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a cost cutting exercise; is it Dragons who get the most money?

I have lifted this from elsewhere


Source: WRU annual report 2021 - https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/wru/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/22180334/WRU3048-Annual-Report-2020-2021_FINAL.pdf

WRU investments in "WRU Gwent Region Limited":
* 2020: £7.1m
* 2021: £7.9m ()

WRU investments in the other three regions:
* 2020: £25m
* 2021: £12.6m ()

WRU investment in community rugby:
* 2020: £4.5m
* 2021: £4.5m ()

In 2021, WRU Gwent headcount actually grew, from 87 to 93.



So theoretically the biggest ‘saving’ would come from either re-privatisation of the Dragons, or disbanding them.  However, that would then possibly open up the WRU to questions about why they didn’t do it sooner, etc etc.

Personally I can’t see any way getting rid of any of the regions works.  Ignoring lowering the amount of pro players, making regions have more internationals so missing more of their first team for chunks of the season, and technically ending up with the regions closer together (farthest two apart if Scarlets/Dragons go), there are deals with URC and RCC around wales putting in four teams.  So would the tv money and sponsorship from these completions be cut by 25% too.

From the figures on the BBC another region takes more than Dragons then (when we're not in a pandemic!). I've not read anything in the updates which states which region would be cut so could well be Cardiff as far as anyone knows.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've not read anything in the updates which states which region would be cut so could well be Cardiff as far as anyone knows

I agree with you that a lot of people are just assuming it would be the Dragons due to years of being the whipping boys of Welsh pro rugby. But there is nothing to state that it would be them. In all honesty though I think Cardiff would be the last pro team in Wales to ever get cut.

Would make sense to get rid of them in a way. They're currently not very good. Would let other areas still have their teams still, Cardiff still have the national team and Cardiff RFC. Well unless thats one of the Prem teams the WRU are planning on getting rid of of course.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would make sense to get rid of them in a way. They're currently not very good. Would let other areas still have their teams still, Cardiff still have the national team and Cardiff RFC. Well unless thats one of the Prem teams the WRU are planning on getting rid of of course.

I still think it's a joke that Cardiff Rugby have this attitude of "We are Cardiff and always will be" yet get to have a team in the URC and the "original" Cardiff team Welsh Premiership. I mean we all know that the Scarlets are just basically Llanelli RFC in a pro rugby form but they have at least pretended to something different by dropping the town name.

As for the Welsh Premiership revamp, I think we all know if a team was to be dropped out of Cardiff, Merthyr and Pontypridd it would be the latter that gets cut.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've not read anything in the updates which states which region would be cut so could well be Cardiff as far as anyone knows

I agree with you that a lot of people are just assuming it would be the Dragons due to years of being the whipping boys of Welsh pro rugby. But there is nothing to state that it would be them. In all honesty though I think Cardiff would be the last pro team in Wales to ever get cut.

There are a few things which state it wouldn't be them too, therefore reducing the risk of a Ponty Warriors happening to us. Like SS kindly pointed out, this isn't the first proposal of this kind and I do not think it will be the last. The only thing that needs to be cut here is that WRU board.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would make sense to get rid of them in a way. They're currently not very good. Would let other areas still have their teams still, Cardiff still have the national team and Cardiff RFC. Well unless thats one of the Prem teams the WRU are planning on getting rid of of course.

I still think it's a joke that Cardiff Rugby have this attitude of "We are Cardiff and always will be" yet get to have a team in the URC and the "original" Cardiff team Welsh Premiership. I mean we all know that the Scarlets are just basically Llanelli RFC in a pro rugby form but they have at least pretended to something different by dropping the town name

As for the Welsh Premiership revamp, I think we all know if a team was to be dropped out of Cardiff, Merthyr and Pontypridd it would be the latter that gets cut.

Is there actually a WP revamp also on the table, or is that still the same pipedream from the usual suspects? The only revamp that would help is reducing its funding or number of teams, and putting that money into pro rugby. Whilst I like the WP, it doesn't serve much or any purpose as far as I can tell.

Would agree with you on Cardiff, who look like whipping boys themselves at the moment. Still, they have what it takes to turn it around in pro rugby. You'll do well to note the word pro.

Any reason why I had a good comment removed without mention, which discussed the post in question (IE their comment)? If you don't like the part where I suggested someone was an obvious WUM then either edit it out, or perhaps take necessary action against the accused.

mikey_dragon wrote:Any reason why I had a good comment removed without mention, which discussed the post in question (IE their comment)? If you don't like the part where I suggested someone was an obvious WUM then either edit it out, or perhaps take necessary action against the accused.

I was on the verge of editing your comment, but then saw you had two snipes at two different posters.

For all concerned, this thread has the potential to be quite emotional now, so I would suggest that personal digs, swipes at places/towns or unnecessary digs at clubs which will undoubtedly provoke aren't used in posts. I am trying to work at the same time, so am not blessed with the time of editing childish posts.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would make sense to get rid of them in a way. They're currently not very good. Would let other areas still have their teams still, Cardiff still have the national team and Cardiff RFC. Well unless thats one of the Prem teams the WRU are planning on getting rid of of course.

I still think it's a joke that Cardiff Rugby have this attitude of "We are Cardiff and always will be" yet get to have a team in the URC and the "original" Cardiff team Welsh Premiership. I mean we all know that the Scarlets are just basically Llanelli RFC in a pro rugby form but they have at least pretended to something different by dropping the town name

As for the Welsh Premiership revamp, I think we all know if a team was to be dropped out of Cardiff, Merthyr and Pontypridd it would be the latter that gets cut.

Is there actually a WP revamp also on the table, or is that still the same pipedream from the usual suspects? The only revamp that would help is reducing its funding or number of teams, and putting that money into pro rugby. Whilst I like the WP, it doesn't serve much or any purpose as far as I can tell.

Would agree with you on Cardiff, who look like whipping boys themselves at the moment. Still, they have what it takes to turn it around in pro rugby. You'll do well to note the word pro.

There's a bit on Walesonline saying the WRU are looking to reduce it to 9 teams.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've not read anything in the updates which states which region would be cut so could well be Cardiff as far as anyone knows

I agree with you that a lot of people are just assuming it would be the Dragons due to years of being the whipping boys of Welsh pro rugby. But there is nothing to state that it would be them. In all honesty though I think Cardiff would be the last pro team in Wales to ever get cut.

Dragons to go - they are union owned not performing
Cardiff to go - they are a city team and won’t even try regional
Ospreys to go - they are tenants and almost folded a while back
Scarlets to go - they are the only ‘top flight’ side in the URC (maybe full stop) that are based on a town and not a city, so lack infrastructure and walk up support.

Let’s be fair all of them have good reasons to be axed, well logical arguments for it anyway.

Cardiff stay - can’t have the biggest population base without a pro team based there
Dragons stay - Gwent (I believe) has the most clubs in the union
Ospreys stay - they have, hate saying it, been the most successful on the field of all the regions
Scarlets stay - erm…..cos I dint want to go watch rugby in Swansea. Arguable the best performing region over the last few years

So again, there are logical arguments for all of them to avoid the axe.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would make sense to get rid of them in a way. They're currently not very good. Would let other areas still have their teams still, Cardiff still have the national team and Cardiff RFC. Well unless thats one of the Prem teams the WRU are planning on getting rid of of course.

I still think it's a joke that Cardiff Rugby have this attitude of "We are Cardiff and always will be" yet get to have a team in the URC and the "original" Cardiff team Welsh Premiership. I mean we all know that the Scarlets are just basically Llanelli RFC in a pro rugby form but they have at least pretended to something different by dropping the town name

As for the Welsh Premiership revamp, I think we all know if a team was to be dropped out of Cardiff, Merthyr and Pontypridd it would be the latter that gets cut.

Is there actually a WP revamp also on the table, or is that still the same pipedream from the usual suspects? The only revamp that would help is reducing its funding or number of teams, and putting that money into pro rugby. Whilst I like the WP, it doesn't serve much or any purpose as far as I can tell.

Would agree with you on Cardiff, who look like whipping boys themselves at the moment. Still, they have what it takes to turn it around in pro rugby. You'll do well to note the word pro.

There's a bit on Walesonline saying the WRU are looking to reduce it to 9 teams.

9 feeders, 3 regions, 1 nation…..almost looks like they have thought this out….almost

RiscaGame wrote:I was on the verge of editing your comment, but then saw you had two snipes at two different posters.

For all concerned, this thread has the potential to be quite emotional now, so I would suggest that personal digs, swipes at places/towns or unnecessary digs at clubs which will undoubtedly provoke aren't used in posts. I am trying to work at the same time, so am not blessed with the time of editing childish posts.

Not that I want to keep dragging this on but there is an obvious swipe/accusation against me which is still there and I didn't appreciate that (I didn't see the one BigGee had to remove)... There's also constant berating of Dragons here, and given it's stuff we have discussed in detail already I think it's unneccessary and only there for said reason. Whenever I've mentioned Ponty or the self proclaimed 'the Valleys' it's based on what they keep saying on this forum.

I'm not suggesting that you target me with moderation BTW.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:9 feeders, 3 regions, 1 nation…..almost looks like they have thought this out….almost

Are they meant to be feeders now, or are you saying it is the intention they will be feeders? I still don't see how semi-pro teams can be feeders. The gems it has produced over the years is few and far between. However, if we were to invest in the A League... well to me that makes sense.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ospreys to go - they are tenants and almost folded a while back
Scarlets to go - they are the only ‘top flight’ side in the URC (maybe full stop) that are based on a town and not a city, so lack infrastructure and walk up support

Could the WRU possibly axe the Ospreys and ask the Scarlets to change their name? Something new and fresh? This would then be classed as a "merger" I guess

So then the WRU could say they have created an East Wales region (Dragons) and a West Wales region (Ospreys and Scarlets "merger") and then say it's not their fault that Cardiff Rugby want to stay as they are

mikey_dragon wrote:Is there actually a WP revamp also on the table, or is that still the same pipedream from the usual suspects? The only revamp that would help is reducing its funding or number of teams, and putting that money into pro rugby. Whilst I like the WP, it doesn't serve much or any purpose as far as I can tell.

Look, I am all for splitting the two forms of rugby in Wales into two, Pro and community. But to say we should cut anything in the community game is Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Truth be told, none of the community teams throughout Wales from the Welsh prem down are not as miss-managed as the regions are. If I were the WRU I would be reluctant  to give the regions more money, and throw good money at a bad product.

When are the 4 pro teams going to take a long hard look in the mirror and have a serious word with themselves ?

You like the WP, but cannot see what purpose it serves ? Give me a break will you ? You just go into the communities based around the rugby teams and just see what purpose they are serving. I play football on a comprehensive school artificial football pitch 8pm for an hour a few nights a week, why 8pm ? Because there are about 250 kids rugby training for Cefn Coed rugby club twice a week before us, that is just one club. There are a number of clubs in Merthyr who all feed into Merthyr RFC, who then in turn have kids who hopefully one day will play for a region.

The total lack of empathy towards the community game from some of the regional fans in Wales is absolutely astonishing. These community clubs do not get enough help if you ask me. There are a lot of people in Wales who  devote their time to these clubs because it's in their blood, it's in their community. Yet here you are saying to the lesser of folk, forget you, I want more money for my region, because my region is rubbish and we need more money to be better.

Perhaps the regions should look at the wages they are paying for mediocre players who do not deserve it, or jobs being done that are being done in the community game for nothing.

When teams in the community need to get their hands on extra money to pay for the kids to have a home and away kit, they generate it by doing events, they do cash raisers. They do things for themselves. Perhaps the regions need to take a leaf out of that book.

Anyway. Sorry for the rant.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Scarlets stay - erm…..cos I dint want to go watch rugby in Swansea.  Arguable the best performing region over the last few years

So again, there are logical arguments for all of them to avoid the axe.

You are right.
In quite a few ways, there'd be logic to axe the Scarlets, without wanting to drag up the history of what happened after regionalism (I'm sure you are aware). I wouldn't axe any of them. If I was forced to axe one then it wouldn't be Scarlets, they produce a lot of talented players given the player base.

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway. Sorry for the rant.

Don't apologise for speaking sense. I have also been involved in the grass routes game and I have seen the hard work that goes into running a local club at all ages and how the rugby club plays a pivotal part in the community. Many pro rugby fans in Wales seem to have this weird disregard for anything below the national team or "regional" rugby. Do they ever stop and ask where the players they cheer on actually came from and where they started their career?

And what would giving the 4 current pro clubs in Wales a payrise achieve exactly???

Money to have more average players on the books? Money to improve the facilities? (when last time I checked the pro clubs have no worse facilities than anywhere else in the professional rugby world)

It's crazy mun.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ospreys to go - they are tenants and almost folded a while back
Scarlets to go - they are the only ‘top flight’ side in the URC (maybe full stop) that are based on a town and not a city, so lack infrastructure and walk up support

Could the WRU possibly axe the Ospreys and ask the Scarlets to change their name? Something new and fresh? This would then be classed as a "merger" I guess

So then the WRU could say they have created an East Wales region (Dragons) and a West Wales region (Ospreys and Scarlets "merger") and then say it's not their fault that Cardiff Rugby want to stay as they are

I know what you mean, but as someone from the proper west of Wales, only Irish Sea further west, calling Swansea West Wales is insulting, it’d be like calling Bristol or Bath East England. If a merger happened the logical thing would be playing out of PYS, and then you get the infrastructure problems still persist. Otherwise you have a rugby stadium empty, and a team playing in a rented football ground.

mikey_dragon wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:9 feeders, 3 regions, 1 nation…..almost looks like they have thought this out….almost

Are they meant to be feeders now, or are you saying it is the intention they will be feeders? I still don't see how semi-pro teams can be feeders. The gems it has produced over the years is few and far between. However, if we were to invest in the A League... well to me that makes sense.

Was more tongue in cheek, but if the East, Cardiff, and the West are how they wind up, then having 3 teams in each, one to the west, one central, one east would be more sensible.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway. Sorry for the rant.

Don't apologise for speaking sense. I have also been involved in the grass routes game and I have seen the hard work that goes into running a local club at all ages and how the rugby club plays a pivotal part in the community. Many pro rugby fans in Wales seem to have this weird disregard for anything below the national team or "regional" rugby. Do they ever stop and ask where the players they cheer on actually came from and where they started their career?

And what would giving the 4 current pro clubs in Wales a payrise achieve exactly???

Money to have more average players on the books? Money to improve the facilities? (when last time I checked the pro clubs have no worse facilities than anywhere else in the professional rugby world)

It's crazy mun.

Yeah your right, I shouldn't apologise, I was just trying to be nice.

Without the community game, there would be no rugby in Wales, and that is a sobering fact that some of the rugby supporting fans in Wales need to realise.

LordDowlais wrote:Without the community game, there would be no rugby in Wales, and that is a sobering fact that some of the rugby supporting fans in Wales need to realise.

It is also with noting that any failure of the Premiership clubs to produce players was quite often due to the fact that the regional academies had all the young players. The WRU could have invested money in say...8-9 teams to form a Premiership that would have the best young talent in Wales playing and might actually bring in some decent crowds.

Instead the academies had all the best young talent and they WRU had a WP of 14 teams.

Another example of how everything was done wrong from the start back in 2003.

A regional A League would be a waste of time. Even in football no one goes to watch Liverpool or Chelsea reserves. And didn't we try A Teams before?