The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

LordDowlais wrote:Look, I am all for splitting the two forms of rugby in Wales into two, Pro and community. But to say we should cut anything in the community game is Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Truth be told, none of the community teams throughout Wales from the Welsh prem down are not as miss-managed as the regions are. If I were the WRU I would be reluctant  to give the regions more money, and throw good money at a bad product.

Well I guess it depends doesn't it. I've said I would axe the WP. Contraversially, I would also axe the women's game despite recent and obvious improvements. There's just not a big enough market for it, so they get money from the men's game. Our U20s, U18s and Sevens programmes have been on the wane for years and could do with some external influence, which comes with investment.

The community game is amateur and nobody here should be paid. I didn't mention that, I mentioned the semi-pro game.

LordDowlais wrote:When are the 4 pro teams going to take a long hard look in the mirror and have a serious word with themselves ?

Probably when the WRU give them more funding, and then more equal funding, rather than spending it on hotels and threatening to merge or axe teams.

LordDowlais wrote:You like the WP, but cannot see what purpose it serves ? Give me a break will you ? You just go into the communities based around the rugby teams and just see what purpose they are serving. I play football on a comprehensive school artificial football pitch 8pm for an hour a few nights a week, why 8pm ? Because there are about 250 kids rugby training for Cefn Coed rugby club twice a week before us, that is just one club. There are a number of clubs in Merthyr who all feed into Merthyr RFC, who then in turn have kids who hopefully one day will play for a region.

 

It's a likeable product as it provides some entertainment. I don't see what else it does, yet you and others are calling for it to be imrpoved. Go and watch Bargoed, then tell me if these players will be able to make the step-up to pro rugby and be available all season? Before you reply, the answer is no. Having a strong and regular A league makes more sense - some semi-pro's could help out here but that would be few and far between. And I thought the preference was for U23 players anyway, how many U23 players are there in the WP that are set to become pro players? Possbily a handful at the most, and yet we have 4 pro teams.
You're talking about the amateur game again which I didn't mention. So tell me again what purpose does it serve apart from entertain a few local people?
BTW Cefn Coed has links with a pro academy (Cardiff Rugby) - if some of them turn out for Merthyr but are already attached to Cardiff then it's not really relevant. And is Merthyr's squad size 250? I thought not.

LordDowlais wrote:The total lack of empathy towards the community game from some of the regional fans in Wales is absolutely astonishing. These community clubs do not get enough help if you ask me. There are a lot of people in Wales who  devote their time to these clubs because it's in their blood, it's in their community. Yet here you are saying to the lesser of folk, forget you, I want more money for my region, because my region is rubbish and we need more money to be better.

But that's just your opinion, which isn't based on what I said, seeing as I didn't talk about the amateur game. I know of some clubs that had to fold, sadly. Whilst everyone was up in arms about it and claiming it was damaging the game, the ones I know of were just men's pub teams playing for love of playing and socialising. Not so detrimental if you ask me.
No, I'm saying pro rugby as a whole needs more investment to be able to compete and put out better players. You need to read all this a bit better, it's tiresome now. Lesser folk? No need to say that about yourself....

LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the regions should look at the wages they are paying for mediocre players who do not deserve it, or jobs being done that are being done in the community game for nothing.

Absolutely they should.
No idea what you are talking about with the next bit sorry.

LordDowlais wrote:When teams in the community need to get their hands on extra money to pay for the kids to have a home and away kit, they generate it by doing events, they do cash raisers. They do things for themselves. Perhaps the regions need to take a leaf out of that book.

Yes they do.
They regions also generate their own money for such things - you didn't know that?

LordDowlais wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway. Sorry for the rant.

Don't apologise for speaking sense. I have also been involved in the grass routes game and I have seen the hard work that goes into running a local club at all ages and how the rugby club plays a pivotal part in the community. Many pro rugby fans in Wales seem to have this weird disregard for anything below the national team or "regional" rugby. Do they ever stop and ask where the players they cheer on actually came from and where they started their career?

And what would giving the 4 current pro clubs in Wales a payrise achieve exactly???

Money to have more average players on the books? Money to improve the facilities? (when last time I checked the pro clubs have no worse facilities than anywhere else in the professional rugby world)

It's crazy mun.

Yeah your right, I shouldn't apologise, I was just trying to be nice.

Without the community game, there would be no rugby in Wales, and that is a sobering fact that some of the rugby supporting fans in Wales need to realise.

I think most people understand that you need the grass roots to survive, and most rugby fans have either played, or had kids play for their local club dude, and probably even drink in the club house too. The thing is though, rugby went professional 30 years ago, and in Wales we still have t really managed to either integrate the two into a system that feeds from the bottom up, and then back down (like Ireland/New Zealand etc) or a system them separates the two (like England/France). And we do what we do best and turn on each other instead of working as one to get to the solution.

Jimmy Moz wrote:And what would giving the 4 current pro clubs in Wales a payrise achieve exactly???

Money to have more average players on the books? Money to improve the facilities? (when last time I checked the pro clubs have no worse facilities than anywhere else in the professional rugby world)

More quality coaches and players. Coaches need to be sought from elsewhere for now, there used to be this weird obsession with getting welsh coaches at the regions which backfired and most no longer have a job in the pro game. A current exmaple would be Byron Hayward being passed around, the guy is hopeless but still in a job. If there was more money floating around I imagine someone better would be sought out.

That's not entirely true. Look at Bristol... Then perhaps take note of what some players going to play in England and France have to say.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, I am all for splitting the two forms of rugby in Wales into two, Pro and community. But to say we should cut anything in the community game is Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Truth be told, none of the community teams throughout Wales from the Welsh prem down are not as miss-managed as the regions are. If I were the WRU I would be reluctant  to give the regions more money, and throw good money at a bad product.

Well I guess it depends doesn't it. I've said I would axe the WP. Contraversially, I would also axe the women's game despite recent and obvious improvements. There's just not a big enough market for it, so they get money from the men's game. Our U20s, U18s and Sevens programmes have been on the wane for years and could do with some external influence, which comes with investment.

The community game is amateur and nobody here should be paid. I didn't mention that, I mentioned the semi-pro game.

LordDowlais wrote:When are the 4 pro teams going to take a long hard look in the mirror and have a serious word with themselves ?

Probably when the WRU give them more funding, and then more equal funding, rather than spending it on hotels and threatening to merge or axe teams.

LordDowlais wrote:You like the WP, but cannot see what purpose it serves ? Give me a break will you ? You just go into the communities based around the rugby teams and just see what purpose they are serving. I play football on a comprehensive school artificial football pitch 8pm for an hour a few nights a week, why 8pm ? Because there are about 250 kids rugby training for Cefn Coed rugby club twice a week before us, that is just one club. There are a number of clubs in Merthyr who all feed into Merthyr RFC, who then in turn have kids who hopefully one day will play for a region.

 

It's a likeable product as it provides some entertainment. I don't see what else it does, yet you and others are calling for it to be imrpoved. Go and watch Bargoed, then tell me if these players will be able to make the step-up to pro rugby and be available all season? Before you reply, the answer is no. Having a strong and regular A league makes more sense - some semi-pro's could help out here but that would be few and far between. And I thought the preference was for U23 players anyway, how many U23 players are there in the WP that are set to become pro players? Possbily a handful at the most, and yet we have 4 pro teams.
You're talking about the amateur game again which I didn't mention. So tell me again what purpose does it serve apart from entertain a few local people?
BTW Cefn Coed has links with a pro academy (Cardiff Rugby) - if some of them turn out for Merthyr but are already attached to Cardiff then it's not really relevant. And is Merthyr's squad size 250? I thought not.

LordDowlais wrote:The total lack of empathy towards the community game from some of the regional fans in Wales is absolutely astonishing. These community clubs do not get enough help if you ask me. There are a lot of people in Wales who  devote their time to these clubs because it's in their blood, it's in their community. Yet here you are saying to the lesser of folk, forget you, I want more money for my region, because my region is rubbish and we need more money to be better.

But that's just your opinion, which isn't based on what I said, seeing as I didn't talk about the amateur game. I know of some clubs that had to fold, sadly. Whilst everyone was up in arms about it and claiming it was damaging the game, the ones I know of were just men's pub teams playing for love of playing and socialising. Not so detrimental if you ask me.
No, I'm saying pro rugby as a whole needs more investment to be able to compete and put out better players. You need to read all this a bit better, it's tiresome now. Lesser folk? No need to say that about yourself....

LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the regions should look at the wages they are paying for mediocre players who do not deserve it, or jobs being done that are being done in the community game for nothing.

Absolutely they should.
No idea what you are talking about with the next bit sorry.

LordDowlais wrote:When teams in the community need to get their hands on extra money to pay for the kids to have a home and away kit, they generate it by doing events, they do cash raisers. They do things for themselves. Perhaps the regions need to take a leaf out of that book.

Yes they do.
They regions also generate their own money for such things - you didn't know that?

The market is huge for the women's game.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Without the community game, there would be no rugby in Wales, and that is a sobering fact that some of the rugby supporting fans in Wales need to realise.

It is also with noting that any failure of the Premiership clubs to produce players was quite often due to the fact that the regional academies had all the young players. The WRU could have invested money in say...8-9 teams to form a Premiership that would have the best young talent in Wales playing and might actually bring in some decent crowds.

Instead the academies had all the best young talent and they WRU had a WP of 14 teams.

Another example of how everything was done wrong from the start back in 2003.

Exactly.

Also, people need to realise where these academy players came from, they were all brought into the game playing for the age grades at their community clubs and the schools within said communities.

But lets reduce this breeding ground so that the regions can have an extra 500K each to spend on water boys and over inflated wages to mediocre players.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Without the community game, there would be no rugby in Wales, and that is a sobering fact that some of the rugby supporting fans in Wales need to realise.

It is also with noting that any failure of the Premiership clubs to produce players was quite often due to the fact that the regional academies had all the young players.

Yeah okay

No 7&1/2 wrote:The market is huge for the women's game.

You've changed your tune . The market is huge in England? In Canada (they have no money btw)? By what measure is it huge?

Kids training doesn't really prove the value of the Premiership. For balance it should also be noted that the community game's funding has not changed, even during the pandemic. It should also be noted that plenty of community clubs waste this funding by paying players (even if a lot don't admit it).

What is the Premiership's purpose? Do you think it gives players a good grounding for being a professional? It's still very much a case of the haves and have nots.

I will bow down to the knowledge of the poster that can state as fact that the Welsh teams' facilities are not worse than anywhere else in the rugby world. That's quite a sweeping statement.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway. Sorry for the rant.

Don't apologise for speaking sense. I have also been involved in the grass routes game and I have seen the hard work that goes into running a local club at all ages and how the rugby club plays a pivotal part in the community. Many pro rugby fans in Wales seem to have this weird disregard for anything below the national team or "regional" rugby. Do they ever stop and ask where the players they cheer on actually came from and where they started their career?

And what would giving the 4 current pro clubs in Wales a payrise achieve exactly???

Money to have more average players on the books? Money to improve the facilities? (when last time I checked the pro clubs have no worse facilities than anywhere else in the professional rugby world)

It's crazy mun.

Yeah your right, I shouldn't apologise, I was just trying to be nice.

Without the community game, there would be no rugby in Wales, and that is a sobering fact that some of the rugby supporting fans in Wales need to realise.

I think most people understand that you need the grass roots to survive, and most rugby fans have either played, or had kids play for their local club dude, and probably even drink in the club house too.  The thing is though, rugby went professional 30 years ago, and in Wales we still have t really managed to either integrate the two into a system that feeds from the bottom up, and then back down (like Ireland/New Zealand etc) or a system them separates the two (like England/France).  And we do what we do best and turn on each other instead of working as one to get to the solution.

Exactly. And I'd love for someone to point out where anyone said "axe the grassroots". Nobody said it, but doesn't stop people from ranting over it.

OK, I concede, it's all about the regions.

Everyone else in Wales should just give up.

LordDowlais wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Without the community game, there would be no rugby in Wales, and that is a sobering fact that some of the rugby supporting fans in Wales need to realise.

It is also with noting that any failure of the Premiership clubs to produce players was quite often due to the fact that the regional academies had all the young players. The WRU could have invested money in say...8-9 teams to form a Premiership that would have the best young talent in Wales playing and might actually bring in some decent crowds.

Instead the academies had all the best young talent and they WRU had a WP of 14 teams.

Another example of how everything was done wrong from the start back in 2003.

Exactly.

Also, people need to realise where these academy players came from, they were all brought into the game playing for the age grades at their community clubs and the schools within said communities.

But lets reduce this breeding ground so that the regions can have an extra 500K each to spend on water boys and over inflated wages to mediocre players.

The 4 proposals seem to indicate cost cutting not redistribution.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The market is huge for the women's game.

You've changed your tune . The market is huge in England? In Canada (they have no money btw)? By what measure is it huge?

Have I? Don't remember talking it down before? I mean in terms of potential growth. That's where there's a shed tonne of money to be made. You can see the interest grow with each year. The smart unions will put money there, they'll see it back ten fold.

LordDowlais wrote:OK, I concede, it's all about the regions.

Everyone else in Wales should just give up.

This is another comment for why people don't take you seriously and think you are just here to wind us up.

Let me get this right, it is OK to criticise the regions, to run them down, to suggest that any one of them should be cut or disbanded…….yet the Welsh Prem cannot come under any scrutiny? Welsh rugby at its finest! Talk about double standards.


I think ‘what purpose does it serve’ is a genuine question and one the WRU is asking at the moment and one the recent review has picked up on too. So what purpose does it serve? Is it a breeding ground for future pro talent? Is it a training/playing ground for current regional talent who are not getting game time? Is it the 2nd tier of a pyramid structure with pro rugby at the top? Or is it completely separate from Pro rugby and just the top of a Welsh club pyramid? Is it a direct feeder for pro rugby? Is it where we place academy players with official links to the pro teams and agreements in place or can academy players play anywhere? Or do we have pro A teams instead and academy players and those not getting much game time do not feature in the Welsh Prem at all? All of these are questions relating to the ‘purpose’ that the Welsh Prem, aka the semi-pro tier, serves in Welsh rugby. It’s an important debate. Can’t see anyone here saying to axe or cut it. Just review it and potentially reform it.


My preference would be for a strong Welsh Prem where regional players genuinely drop down when needed for game time, coming back from injury, just breaking through to pro rugby, etc. But I don’t know if it’s feasible in Wales with the parochialism. Just too many self-interests and arguing to ever make it work (see Ponty and Blues squabbles over academy players, accusations of loading teams for big games, etc). Ignoring that, or if we could get past it, for it to work we’d need it to be a much better standard otherwise there’s no point pro players playing in it, hence why quite a few go to England on loan instead. But in an ideal world for me it would be something akin to the Curry Cup or the NPC in New Zealand. Maybe not that standard but that ‘ethos’.

LordDowlais wrote:OK, I concede, it's all about the regions.

Everyone else in Wales should just give up.

Definitely not.

Why can’t it be National, Regional, Local?

Before professionalism or regionalism you played for your local team, say Amman United. You supported them, but you also supported one of the bigger teams like Neath and Wales. You would hope you would be good enough to get spotted and end up playing for Neath as that was the way you could get spotted and have a chance at playing for Wales.

Why can’t we still have that system, it worked in harmony. But just replace the name Neath for Ospreys?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The market is huge for the women's game.

You've changed your tune . The market is huge in England? In Canada (they have no money btw)? By what measure is it huge?

Have I? Don't remember talking it down before? I mean in terms of potential growth. That's where there's a shed tonne of money to be made. You can see the interest grow with each year. The smart unions will put money there, they'll see it back ten fold.

Yes. Your view was the same as mine in that it's currently a drain on money in men's game. I'm sure there was more to it. Before you reply, I was saying at the team that you all needed to be supportive of England women who were ranked No.1!
Potential growth? I don't see it, first and foremost it has to entertain - in comparison to the men's and something like State of Origin, it doens't. If someone has surmised differently based on actual trends and data then I'm happy to be corrected.

I'm all for the women's game so long as it doesn't impact the men's game, but we all start somewhere I guess.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The market is huge for the women's game.

You've changed your tune . The market is huge in England? In Canada (they have no money btw)? By what measure is it huge?

Have I? Don't remember talking it down before? I mean in terms of potential growth. That's where there's a shed tonne of money to be made. You can see the interest grow with each year. The smart unions will put money there, they'll see it back ten fold.

Yes. Your view was the same as mine in that it's currently a drain on money in men's game. I'm sure there was more to it. Before you reply, I was saying at the team that you all needed to be supportive of England women who were ranked No.1!
Potential growth? I don't see it, first and foremost it has to entertain - in comparison to the men's and something like State of Origin, it doens't. If someone has surmised differently based on actual trends and data then I'm happy to be corrected.

I'm all for the women's game so long as it doens't impact the men's game, but we all start somewhere I guess.

No, that wasn't me. You can see the attendance at games, article in the media and TV audiences for the growth. Not bothered if people here do or don't watch it it's the one area where there's huge under tapped potential rather than saturation.

RiscaGame wrote:Kids training doesn't really prove the value of the Premiership. For balance it should also be noted that the community game's funding has not changed, even during the pandemic. It should also be noted that plenty of community clubs waste this funding by paying players (even if a lot don't admit it).

What is the Premiership's purpose? Do you think it gives players a good grounding for being a professional? It's still very much a case of the haves and have nots.

I will bow down to the knowledge of the poster that can state as fact that the Welsh teams' facilities are not worse than anywhere else in the rugby world. That's quite a sweeping statement.

Of course the kids training proves the value of the Premiership. It shows that the interest is there, do you think these community teams would be there if they didn't aspire to climb the pyramid and some day play in the Welsh Prem ? I know the funding hasn't changed either, but there are regional fans here saying it should be reduced, and the difference given to the regions. Why ?

Look, I do not know what the facilities for the regions are like, but they cannot be a few weights in a room at the back of the club and a scrummage machine in the field by the side. The Premiership serves a massive purpose within the community. Not all the kids are going to be regional stars. But they could at least then aspire to be the next Craig Locke or James Howe, who are like local celebrities within their communities that kids look up to.

If anywhere in Welsh rugby needs more funding its the Welsh premiership. Make it fully pro, then players who cannot get game time for the regions could play in the league. It keeps the powder dry for the players to step up. How many academy players do not make it at a young age and are lost to the game, whereas they could be playing in the Welsh prem and end up future stars.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm all for the women's game so long as it doens't impact the men's game, but we all start somewhere I guess.

No, that wasn't me. You can see the attendance at games, article in the media and TV audiences for the growth. Not bothered if people here do or don't watch it it's the one area where there's huge under tapped potential rather than saturation.[/quote]

I'm 99% certain it was you, not that you said anything bad but anyway it was a while ago and I'm unwilling to go looking for it. Just saying with the current state of the game in Wales I've no idea why more money would be pumped into what I've already said, when it clearly needs to go into the pro men's game instead.

The live and TV audience has certainly swelled, but it's still not amazing. Is it self-sustianble outside of England and NZ yet? I just don't see it becoming a huge market but happy to be proved wrong in a few years time.

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Kids training doesn't really prove the value of the Premiership. For balance it should also be noted that the community game's funding has not changed, even during the pandemic. It should also be noted that plenty of community clubs waste this funding by paying players (even if a lot don't admit it).

What is the Premiership's purpose? Do you think it gives players a good grounding for being a professional? It's still very much a case of the haves and have nots.

I will bow down to the knowledge of the poster that can state as fact that the Welsh teams' facilities are not worse than anywhere else in the rugby world. That's quite a sweeping statement.

Of course the kids training proves the value of the Premiership. It shows that the interest is there, do you think these community teams would be there if they didn't aspire to climb the pyramid and some day play in the Welsh Prem ? I know the funding hasn't changed either, but there are regional fans here saying it should be reduced, and the difference given to the regions. Why ?

Look, I do not know what the facilities for the regions are like, but they cannot be a few weights in a room at the back of the club and a scrummage machine in the field by the side. The Premiership serves a massive purpose within the community. Not all the kids are going to be regional stars. But they could at least then aspire to be the next Craig Locke or James Howe, who are like local celebrities within their communities that kids look up to.

If anywhere in Welsh rugby needs more funding its the Welsh premiership. Make it fully pro, then players who cannot get game time for the regions could play in the league. It keeps the powder dry for the players to step up. How many academy players do not make it at a young age and are lost to the game, whereas they could be playing in the Welsh prem and end up future stars.

Well the plan is to cut it so I suppose any funding by the union is spread less thinly.

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Kids training doesn't really prove the value of the Premiership. For balance it should also be noted that the community game's funding has not changed, even during the pandemic. It should also be noted that plenty of community clubs waste this funding by paying players (even if a lot don't admit it).

What is the Premiership's purpose? Do you think it gives players a good grounding for being a professional? It's still very much a case of the haves and have nots.

I will bow down to the knowledge of the poster that can state as fact that the Welsh teams' facilities are not worse than anywhere else in the rugby world. That's quite a sweeping statement.

Of course the kids training proves the value of the Premiership. It shows that the interest is there, do you think these community teams would be there if they didn't aspire to climb the pyramid and some day play in the Welsh Prem ? I know the funding hasn't changed either, but there are regional fans here saying it should be reduced, and the difference given to the regions. Why ?

Look, I do not know what the facilities for the regions are like, but they cannot be a few weights in a room at the back of the club and a scrummage machine in the field by the side. The Premiership serves a massive purpose within the community. Not all the kids are going to be regional stars. But they could at least then aspire to be the next Craig Locke or James Howe, who are like local celebrities within their communities that kids look up to.

If anywhere in Welsh rugby needs more funding its the Welsh premiership. Make it fully pro, then players who cannot get game time for the regions could play in the league. It keeps the powder dry for the players to step up. How many academy players do not make it at a young age and are lost to the game, whereas they could be playing in the Welsh prem and end up future stars.

What do you mean by make it fully pro??? We can’t afford 4 fully pro teams. How can be afford to fund 10?! Fully pro means players are paid to do this as full time jobs. We can’t afford to do that for 400+ players.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm all for the women's game so long as it doens't impact the men's game, but we all start somewhere I guess.

No, that wasn't me. You can see the attendance at games, article in the media and TV audiences for the growth. Not bothered if people here do or don't watch it it's the one area where there's huge under tapped potential rather than saturation.

I'm 99% certain it was you, not that you said anything bad but anyway it was a while ago and I'm unwilling to go looking for it. Just saying with the current state of the game in Wales I've no idea why more money would be pumped into what I've already said, when it clearly needs to go into the pro men's game instead.

The live and TV audience has certainly swelled, but it's still not amazing. Is it self-sustianble outside of England and NZ yet? I just don't see it becoming a huge market but happy to be proved wrong in a few years time. [/quote]


Honestly don't think it was me. Unless it was a poss take comment at some of the stupid wums that certain posters brought. Don't always watch it as it conflicts with other sports etc but always thought there's money there.

LordDowlais wrote:Of course the kids training proves the value of the Premiership. It shows that the interest is there, do you think these community teams would be there if they didn't aspire to climb the pyramid and some day play in the Welsh Prem ? I know the funding hasn't changed either, but there are regional fans here saying it should be reduced, and the difference given to the regions. Why ?

Look, I do not know what the facilities for the regions are like, but they cannot be a few weights in a room at the back of the club and a scrummage machine in the field by the side. The Premiership serves a massive purpose within the community. Not all the kids are going to be regional stars. But they could at least then aspire to be the next Craig Locke or James Howe, who are like local celebrities within their communities that kids look up to.

If anywhere in Welsh rugby needs more funding its the Welsh premiership. Make it fully pro, then players who cannot get game time for the regions could play in the league. It keeps the powder dry for the players to step up. How many academy players do not make it at a young age and are lost to the game, whereas they could be playing in the Welsh prem and end up future stars.

It doesn't. Nobody questioned the interest, we know there is interest albeit a minor amount. We've already said why, you are asking again... Seriously?

Who on earth are Craig Locke and James Howe?

The answer to putting more funding into the WP should be no, and again it has already been discussed why we think that. Who disappeared into the WP but then became a future star? If it hasn't happened now, it'll never happen. Usually these players just switch to another team in or out of Wales.

The Oracle wrote:Let me get this right, it is OK to criticise the regions, to run them down, to suggest that any one of them should be cut or disbanded…….yet the Welsh Prem cannot come under any scrutiny? Welsh rugby at its finest! Talk about double standards.

No, come on. That's not what is going on here. There is plenty to criticise below the regional game, as a few have mentioned, paying players where they shouldn't ect... I also know that certain people do OK for themselves out of the semi-pro game.

You mentioned it earlier in this thread, about using the money within the game below the pro level to actually improve things, and for these clubs to show where the funding has gone, I thought that was a cracking idea, because wherever there is a bit of money, there will be people who will take advantage. That's what needs looking at.

The Oracle wrote:I think ‘what purpose does it serve’ is a genuine question and one the WRU is asking at the moment and one the recent review has picked up on too. So what purpose does it serve? Is it a breeding ground for future pro talent? Is it a training/playing ground for current regional talent who are not getting game time? Is it the 2nd tier of a pyramid structure with pro rugby at the top? Or is it completely separate from Pro rugby and just the top of a Welsh club pyramid? Is it a direct feeder for pro rugby? Is it where we place academy players with official links to the pro teams and agreements in place or can academy players play anywhere? Or do we have pro A teams instead and academy players and those not getting much game time do not feature in the Welsh Prem at all? All of these are questions relating to the ‘purpose’ that the Welsh Prem, aka the semi-pro tier, serves in Welsh rugby. It’s an important debate. Can’t see anyone here saying to axe or cut it. Just review it and potentially reform it.

So many genuinely appropriate questions there, so many subjects that we should demand the WRU answer, a lot of questions I would like to ask, unfortunately, we would never get any answers.

But, but, but..... a shiny new hotel........ look.

The Oracle wrote:My preference would be for a strong Welsh Prem where regional players genuinely drop down when needed for game time, coming back from injury, just breaking through to pro rugby, etc. But I don’t know if it’s feasible in Wales with the parochialism. Just too many self-interests and arguing to ever make it work (see Ponty and Blues squabbles over academy players, accusations of loading teams for big games, etc). Ignoring that, or if we could get past it, for it to work we’d need it to be a much better standard otherwise there’s no point pro players playing in it, hence why quite a few go to England on loan instead. But in an ideal world for me it would be something akin to the Curry Cup or the NPC in New Zealand. Maybe not that standard but that ‘ethos’.

I could not agree more.

FFS. I’ve had a mare on this post and edited another. I’ll try and rectify that now. Here is my post.


The NPC is a similar idea which I would adopt. I’m not sure how it could work, but more academy players dropping down is what I would like. The 9 team Premiership would be more conducive to that. I’ve already said how Will Reed and a few others have benefitted from playing for Newport. The trouble with it could be, is that I believe certain pros are less than professional when playing for pro teams, when really they should be standing out more. Somebody like Max Williams should be ripping up trees for Newport, but I haven’t seen that to be the case when I’ve watched them. But obviously with effective feedback from clubs to the pro teams and vice versa, I believe it could work. I would go 9 teams, but not be overly obsessed with “regional boundaries”. I believe Dragons fullback Dai Richards played for Ponty for a while? That again shows what the Premiership could be used for. Then the Academies have a better outlet and coupled with older former pros (Nic Cudd played brilliantly for Carmarthen on Sunday), it could really work for a lot of positions (front rowers would probably take a bit more development). Youth players in all areas could see it as something to aspire to then, rather than so many players not making the grade and it maybe being seen as too much of a high ceiling to make it pro. I can only speak as my opinion, but I don’t believe kids are currently running round Waunfawr Park in Risca wanting to be the next Joe Bartlett (Who I believe to be the highest level representative for a Risca born person currently?). There might not have been many wanting to be the next Jason Tovey, when he was a full time pro. They probably only want to be the next AWJ or other Welsh international (imo). I am not pretending to be speaking for other areas though.

Sorted, I think. Sorry Oracle. Tried to quote you and had a shocker being both blind and large thumbed

The Oracle wrote:What do you mean by make it fully pro??? We can’t afford 4 fully pro teams. How can be afford to fund 10?! Fully pro means players are paid to do this as full time jobs. We can’t afford to do that for 400+ players.

Sort of what you have touched upon, and what risca has touched upon above, really.

I would like it fully pro, with a wage cap of course, Welsh prem players shouldn't be on 100K per week, but give them a living wage, that way, when the players from the regions drop down, there is not a massive drop in standards, and we do not have pros playing against semi pros.

Perhaps if the WRU didn't build a hotel, they could have money to do it, or perhaps the money they make from their hotel could be used to fund it ?

I don't know, it's not something I see as a reality, just something I would like to see.

RiscaGame wrote:Sorted, I think. Sorry Oracle. Tried to quote you and had a shocker being both blind and large thumbed

Don’t worry whatever happened I missed it all I think!

I have been thinking about this debate, and what service the Welsh Prem could serve. It got me thinking. Lets take the modern day professional rugby players in Wales, the players of today and tomorrow, it's almost as if they are being engineered, made by the academies to future proof positions.

I know of kids who play second row, center, back row ect... but when they get to the academies, they are looked at and then are told the position they are best suited to, when really that should happen naturally, you get your final position as you grow up through rugby, not manufactured into you from a young age.

This is where the Welsh prem could be used, young players finding out their best and natural positions by playing competitive rugby.

I also thought about coaches, there are people on here who are more learned about their regions than I would be, but lets take a look at their coaches, and where they cut their teeth, surely a more competitive, more professional Welsh prem would be the ideal place for young and aspiring coaches.

There are certainly some current regional coaches that SHOULD be in the Welsh Prem and NOT at the regions at this stage in their careers! The Dragons coaching team has a really semi-pro feel to it. A number of guys who are ‘cutting their teeth’. That should never be the case at the pro end. They should be here with good reputations and bags of experience and success. Compare that to someone like Leinster with ex-international coaches in their setup. A frightening disparity.

It's strange really when I look back at what was being said about the Welsh Premiership back when rugby first went "regional"

I recall Scrum V saying how this league was going to be amazing to watch. All the young talent in Wales throwing the ball round, playing exciting rugby while keeping the spirit of club rugby alive.

Now it has all become a bit flat and feels slightly defunct. As I say though I don't think having 14 teams back in the day helped much.

The Oracle wrote:There are certainly some current regional coaches that SHOULD be in the Welsh Prem and NOT at the regions at this stage in their careers! The Dragons coaching team has a really semi-pro feel to it. A number of guys who are ‘cutting their teeth’. That should never be the case at the pro end. They should be here with good reputations and bags of experience and success. Compare that to someone like Leinster with ex-international coaches in their setup. A frightening disparity.

I think that's why most of us were calling for more investment, for this reason exactly. Not extra pocket money/500K for average players, as someone had put it.

mikey_dragon wrote:

The Oracle wrote:There are certainly some current regional coaches that SHOULD be in the Welsh Prem and NOT at the regions at this stage in their careers! The Dragons coaching team has a really semi-pro feel to it. A number of guys who are ‘cutting their teeth’. That should never be the case at the pro end. They should be here with good reputations and bags of experience and success. Compare that to someone like Leinster with ex-international coaches in their setup. A frightening disparity.

I think that's why most of us were calling for more investment, for this reason exactly. Not extra pocket money/500K for average players, as someone had put it.

Yes agreed. I’m almost certain that the regions with their current squads would be further up the league and getting further in the competitions simply with better coaching teams in place. No easy or quick fix, and costly but we’ve often seen the same players play much better in different environments (e.g. international) and players leave and then shine in other teams (sometimes). So I don’t think we need to throw money at the squads themselves necessarily. Throw it at the coaching and see if they can get more out of these groups of players than the current coaches. On paper they should all be doing better than they are, so that’s down to coaching for me.

I think I posted this recently, but just as an example Dragons have Dean Ryan as DoR and then under him:
Mefin Davies - forwards coach
Luke Narraway - forwards coach
Simon Cross - defence
Gordon Ross - backs

Are they top coaches? Or just gaining experience? Reading their bios none seem to have done a great deal so far in coaching terms. Lots of academy work, a bit of first team work, lots of Worcester connections, and then straight into a main role at the Dragons. Just think that’s an area that could get the most bang for buck improvement in our regions.

The Oracle wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

The Oracle wrote:There are certainly some current regional coaches that SHOULD be in the Welsh Prem and NOT at the regions at this stage in their careers! The Dragons coaching team has a really semi-pro feel to it. A number of guys who are ‘cutting their teeth’. That should never be the case at the pro end. They should be here with good reputations and bags of experience and success. Compare that to someone like Leinster with ex-international coaches in their setup. A frightening disparity.

I think that's why most of us were calling for more investment, for this reason exactly. Not extra pocket money/500K for average players, as someone had put it.

Yes agreed. I’m almost certain that the regions with their current squads would be further up the league and getting further in the competitions simply with better coaching teams in place. No easy or quick fix, and costly but we’ve often seen the same players play much better in different environments (e.g. international) and players leave and then shine in other teams (sometimes). So I don’t think we need to throw money at the squads themselves necessarily. Throw it at the coaching and see if they can get more out of these groups of players than the current coaches. On paper they should all be doing better than they are, so that’s down to coaching for me.

I think I posted this recently, but just as an example Dragons have Dean Ryan as DoR and then under him:
Mefin Davies - forwards coach
Luke Narraway - forwards coach
Simon Cross - defence
Gordon Ross - backs

Are they top coaches? Or just gaining experience? Reading their bios none seem to have done a great deal so far in coaching terms. Lots of academy work, a bit of first team work, lots of Worcester connections, and then straight into a main role at the Dragons. Just think that’s an area that could get the most bang for buck improvement in our regions.

They're all naf, although Dean was a top coach at one point. Scarlets had a good coaching team until Mooar left.

Mirroring the NPC is a nice idea, and if the WRU were even planning that I don't think it would work. Not enough money and good enough players for starters. It is also worth noting that NPC teams are provincial teams - something the fans of WP rugby don't want.
I think mirroring the NPC would work for Ireland if they transformed their AIL. That would sort of undermine their provinical teams but if they had they money I reckon they'd do it, but they don't have the money. If they don't then we don't. The Irish would also have to change their entire season which would change everyone else's.

The Welsh teams need to play everyone else but themselves. For example, Scarlets can go beat the Dragons and look very good in the process, believing all their players are on fire. The trouble is that they don't look as good against Munster 2nd's and the French...

4 'regions' work better for me, another one in North Wales would be nice but also probably won't happen in my lifetime...

Yes Scarlets are a good example I think. Pivac did well but took time to bed in, Mooar was good and I thought Delaney would have been good in the long run. Scarlets now have Peel at the helm with some recent ex-players as coaches. Ben Franks is a big name player but a relative newcomer as a coach at this level. Dai Flanagan is only a few years out of playing and is now backs coach for a European rugby side. And he wasn’t great as a player either. Hugh Hogan? Leinster age grade and A teams. And Peel himself? Not a huge run up to him becoming Scarlets head coach. And I wonder if the results and performances are indicative of a coaching team a little out of depth at this level?

mikey_dragon wrote:Mirroring the NPC is a nice idea, and if the WRU were even planning that I don't think it would work. Not enough money and good enough players for starters. It is also worth noting that NPC teams are provincial teams - something the fans of WP rugby don't want.
I think mirroring the NPC would work for Ireland if they transformed their AIL. That would sort of undermine their provinical teams but if they had they money I reckon they'd do it, but they don't have the money. If they don't then we don't. The Irish would also have to change their entire season which would change everyone else's.

The Welsh teams need to play everyone else but themselves. For example, Scarlets can go beat the Dragons and look very good in the process, believing all their players are on fire. The trouble is that they don't look as good against Munster 2nd's and the French...

4 'regions' work better for me, another one in North Wales would be nice but also probably won't happen in my lifetime...

When I talked about the NPC earlier in the thread it was more to do with the NPC having all the old traditional big name club teams from NZ in it as it’s 2nd tier. All the teams like Auckland, Wellington, Bay of Plenty, Canterbury, Otago, Taranaki, etc. And our 2nd tier is where we see our old traditional famous clubs such as Newport, Cardiff, Ponty, etc. So some similarities. You’re right about the quality but I’d hope that a closer tie-in with the Pro teams as part of some sort of revamp or restructure would see it used more as somewhere for the pro squad players to get game time so the quality would increase due to that. And although the NPC is provincial I think there’s talk of the Welsh Prem having 9 clubs with 2 or 3 per region, so a kinda provincial thing. But lots of problems with this approach too I’m sure. I just feel that if we can make the Welsh Prem better then it satisfies a lot of things and gives people who want it that regular Saturday 3pm week in week out all-Welsh league with the old rivalries, travelling fans, a place to develop players, etc. And it saves the need to have another set of teams in the form of regional A teams that have to look to cross border competition which is massively expensive in terms of travel and seems to be scrapped all the time as you’re at the whim of changes and restructures in other nations. I guess my thinking (possibly over optimistic!) is that cross-border pro teams (regions) plus a strong Welsh Prem would be the best of both worlds, in a way.

If not how much more do you reckon they should get ?

If the WRU want the regions to be beating Leinster, then they need a squad that costs the same as Leinster. The Scarlets squad is massively underperforming given it's cost (a few players are on salaries that are perhaps not befitting their talents). The other 3 regions are about where they should be given their resources.

Leinster are competing on a complete different level....only the French sides come close to what they're spending.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

If not how much more do you reckon they should get ?

If the WRU want the regions to be beating Leinster, then they need a squad that costs the same as Leinster. The Scarlets squad is massively underperforming given it's cost (a few players are on salaries that are perhaps not befitting their talents). The other 3 regions are about where they should be given their resources.

Leinster are competing on a complete different level....only the French sides come close to what they're spending.

Leinster get the same amount of money from IRFU as the other provinces on contributions to player salaries. However,
- More of their players get central contracts : Leinster 7, compared to Munster 3, Ulster 2, Connacht 1, so they have more scope in their budget as central contracts are not in their budgets.
- In addition since the provinces also have to part-pay for their players from their own income, Leinster earn more gate monies, sponsors than the other 3.

It’s interesting that BBC say the Oakley report apparently says WRU investment in the pro game, regions and community is in line with other unions. I wonder which unions they compared with.

But I would agree that it is the ability of the regional teams to generate their own income that is part of the problem. And the WRU need to invest additional money into them for a fixed period of time in order to get them earning more income for themselves. Cutting to 3 teams would affect the amount of money WRU receive as shareholders in Competition Income from URC and EPCR. However, the amount of money they give the regions directly for “access” could remain same.

Welsh structural problems are constantly compared on here to the Irish set up which for their premier no.1 team has a number of inbuilt demographic advantages; largest city, private school feeder system and a financial base that can employ and use roughly sixty players through a season and the only ex-test coach in the league.

So it is pointless to compete with that unless it is felt achievable and ditch historic rivalries to focus on developing rivalries between the region's. That has been the strategy over the last 25 years - and it hasn't worked.

If the future strategy in Wales is to keep the structure and further concentrate the elite game into just three teams then the same situation with reduced access for players and fans will be further exacerbated. I seem to remember the same argument when the Welsh went from five to four pro teams, as being the solution.

What is rugby for ? If it is success for the national side in Cardiff above all else then the WRU will continue with a doomed strategy as large parts of Wales with no local top tier side will simply lose interest or prefer to follow the glamour of the football sides.

The WRU should ignore the conflict and nominate all their best playing resources into one regional side and let the Newports and probably Scarlets battle on with very few test players like Connaught and Ulster and everything will then be alright with the rugby world in Wales.

Seriously though it will be a crying shame if the club rugby fan base in Wales declines further and is just left with a day out in Cardiff half a dozen times a year for the Test matches. That could be the long term future. Alternatively Welsh rugby fans could wait for the decline in playing fortunes of the Irish sides as the SA sides start to dominate. Some might say unlikely but they would have said that twenty years ago in Australia too....

Some good points there, Rec. An interesting one about the football and something I think perfectly sums up the ridiculousness of the current ‘regional’ approach in rugby. People say we’re losing fans to football because club rugby fans are becoming disenfranchised. Yet look at the top football clubs in Wales: Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Wrexham. The FAW didn’t force them to ditch their place names and become ‘East Wales Titans’ or ‘North Wales Raiders’. They have developed a fan base from all over Wales simply by existing, winning a bit, getting some promotions (and then relegation)…..all while being named after the places they are based.

Back in 2003 I was fully on board with the regional approach in rugby but for the past 7 or so years I’ve come to realise how damaging it has been. It has developed a sense of entitlement in fans across Wales. Suddenly fans feel they need to be ‘represented’ and if there is no pro team that covers their area then rugby is somehow doing them a disservice and they decide to walk away. But even in the halcyon days of the Welsh top flight before the regions you still had only 12 or so pro teams. All town and city based, and proud to use their place name. Places like Newport, Pontypool, Caerphilly, Cardiff, Pontypridd, Llanelli, Ebbw Vale, Swansea, Bridgend, Neath, etc. Only those 12 or so towns and cities were ‘represented’ in pro rugby, yet there were no calls of disenfranchisement as we hear now. Just picking places at random now, but if you were from Abertillery, Monmouth, Newtown, Aberystwyth, Cardigan….you could name hundreds of places…..they didn’t have a pro team either. But it was never an issue. Their club teams had some support and locals probably supported a pro team in varying degrees of interest too. But the regional approach has created this situation where everyone feels they have to have a pro side to represent them. Football shows us that clubs do not need to represent anyone. They can represent you if you support them, regardless of where you live. There are big groups of valleys Cardiff city fans, for example. Yet the thought of that in rugby is apparently out of the question. I know of coach services to take fans from the valleys to Liverpool to watch them play, and they are oversubscribed. Liverpool doesn’t represent the valleys of South Wales. So unfortunately I think we’ve opened some sort of can of worms with regional rugby and I don’t know how we’re going to get it back to where it was. If at all.

Sir Ian McGeechan has had his say:

“Welsh rugby has rarely been at a lower ebb - but I have a plan to fix it
Being beaten by Italy in all three Six Nations - men's, women's and U20s - has prompted a sense of precipitous decline.

Push has come to shove in Wales, with the losses sustained during Covid tipping the finances of Welsh rugby over the edge. This season the national team performed poorly, none of the four regions finished in the top half of the United Rugby Championship to qualify for the Champions Cup on merit, the under-20s team were once again uncompetitive in their Six Nations, and the Sevens team lags behind Kenya and Spain the world rankings.

Welsh rugby has rarely been at a lower ebb, with 10,000 tickets left unsold for the final Six Nations game against France. Being beaten by Italy in all three Six Nations – men's, women's and under-20 – has prompted a sense of precipitous decline.

That general feeling of malaise has been encapsulated by a review commissioned by the body that governs rugby in Wales, the Professional Rugby Board, which is made up of representatives from the four regions, the WRU and two independents. This report, whose Sunday name is An Independent Review Into The Financial Health Of Welsh Rugby, is due to be discussed in depth by the PRB on Wednesday. It includes a variety of suggestions, but the one that has concentrated minds is the option to cull one of Wales' four professional teams.

This has, unsurprisingly, put the cat among the pigeons. And rightly so, not least because the regions are currently trying to sell season tickets. Dragons director of rugby Dean Ryan has fulminated about the implications, calling them “unacceptable”, and it's difficult to disagree. The report says that ditching one of the regions would save between £6 million and £8.9m a year, yet the Welsh Rugby Union has just been given £51m by CVC.

The ramifications of closing a region are seismic. Each of the population centres of Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport are currently served by a professional team. Cardiff and Scarlets are reckoned to be safe, with either the WRU-owned Dragons or Ospreys, the only region not to own their own ground, the most likely to disappear. The WRU has already tried to merge Ospreys into Scarlets, a proposal successfully shouted down by fans in the same way as Connacht fought off closure by the IRFU.

The knock-on effects of closing a region would be severe, with a whole section of the rugby population disenfranchised. Broadcast income would be driven downwards and player retention and development threatened at a time when people I respect in Wales are deeply worried about the quantity and quality of young players coming through. Even worse, the number of professional players in Wales would dip to 145, which would threaten the national team's effectiveness, especially as Wales cannot call on a massive diaspora in the way that Scotland and Italy can.

It's not as if the regions do not attract significant support. Despite disappointing results, all four Welsh teams have attracted decent crowds. Cardiff's URC home average crowd is 7,343, Ospreys' 5,607, Dragons' 5,668 and Scarlets' 6,745. They don't compare with the three big Irish provinces, but then neither do their trophy cabinets.

Attendances have been mixed in recent times.
Attendances have been mixed in recent times CREDIT: GETTY IMAGES
Thankfully there were several other suggestions in the report, many revolving around the financing of player salaries. Fundamentally, the long-term problem is identified as a lack of cash, which the report seeks to address. By doing so it inevitably brings WRU governance into focus, which is not always a happy tale. For instance, in 2021 the WRU told the regions that their funding for the 2022-23 season would be £23.5m, but added the caveat that the figure is ‘indicative only and based on a number of current assumptions which may vary’. In other words, it depends on WRU income and isn't binding. According to reports in Wales, not one of the four Directors of Rugby has their budgets for next season, making planning impossible.

Although Covid was an exceptional circumstance, it neatly illustrated the imbalance in the relationship between the regions and Union. In 2020 the regions had their central funding from the WRU, which covers the Union's payment for the use of the regions' players for international duty, cut from £26m to £3m despite the fact that the region's players still played for Wales that year. The WRU's solution was to take out a £20m loan which the four regions now have to pay back over 20 years (the amateur game's £11.8m funding was delivered in full because it would be too politically difficult not to do so).

At the same time the WRU is investing money in a series of long-term non-rugby projects, such as a hotel in Cardiff city centre. No wonder relations are so fraught.

What Welsh rugby needs is a plan, and a unifying sense of direction. With that in mind, this report could not have come at a better time. Everyone in Welsh rugby has a common goal – to have a winning national team and regions that can compete for silverware – but there's no consensus around how to achieve that end.

A three-, five- or even 10-year strategic plan for Welsh rugby is now urgently needed. It should be root and branch, starting with the schools and amateur clubs, and how they feed into the semi-pro and professional set-up. I just don't believe there is less talent in Welsh rugby than in previous generations, but much more effort needs to be taken to nurture it and give it direction. There are currently four academies – why not look at two, which should play the Irish and English academies on a regular basis. Young players should also be brought up through the semi-professional clubs to ensure late developers are not missed. As ever, all young players need to play more regularly.

Private finance needs to be urgently sought, not least to make the regions sustainable by ensuring that player salaries represent value for money, which I'm not sure is always the case in Wales just now. More generally, the professional regions need to be prioritised as the best route to achieving a successful national side. That, for instance, means the amateur clubs no longer having any say in the way professional rugby is run (at the moment if 10 per cent of Welsh clubs call for an EGM, they can overturn any WRU decision). I know from Scotland this is a painful transition, but it is a necessary one.

But most of all, the four regions need to be maintained. As the song says, you don't know what you've got til it's gone...”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/05/08/welsh-rugby-has-rarely-lower-ebb-have-plan-fix/

Don’t think he’s saying much more than a lot of us have been saying! Perhaps just a bit more eloquently

What I find really interesting about what he said is the reference to Scotland. If like Wales the clubs once held power over the professional game how did that change? Why would the clubs vote to have less power / no power over the professional game? What convinced the clubs to do that? Does anyone know?

The Italian rugby union just voted the academies there out of existence because the clubs think they were pulling the best young players out of the amateur club game. The Italians have the best crop of young rugby players in generations now coming through because of their academy system and they just voted to destroy it. The amateur and professional games have conflicting interests in every country, not just Wales. But if other countries have found a solution to the quagmire then there’s hope for the rest.

Yeah Geech is making a lot sense. It seems he thinks what some of us (not all ) have been saying on here.

Wales undoubtedly has problems with the structure and funding of the game. These however appear to be internal problems with the way Welsh rugby, from the grassroots, through the semi-pro clubs and regions and up to the WRU board are managed and structured.
Unfortunately there seems to be no "magic bullet" for this - there is no chance of a merger with the English leagues or joining them either at Championship or Premiership level, a standalone Welsh league wouldn't have enough money or top level players to be competitive, attract TV money or sponsors, help the international side or Welsh teams in Europe, so it would seem that there are only two options - either to stay in the URC and work things out domestically - I agree that the relationship between the regions and the WRU needs fixing as it seems to have the worst of private ownership combined with the dead hand of union interference, but then on the other hand none of the clubs can survive without income from the WRU and by extension the international game - or rather than trying to join the English game to push CVC towards a GB and I league involving both England and the other teams from the URC, CVC would probably be interested as the deal they agreed only gives them more money if they generate more money and that can only be achieved through some sort of change to the professional club game.

For those that like stats, an interesting analysis attached on the relative demise of Australia, which is probably common sense, when viewed as a neutral.

However it does come back to whether a top down approach and success of the Test team is paramount above all else. From a strategic commercial sense this is extremely high risk for rugby Unions when creating elite teams with a minimal fan base for cross border leagues. Which is as opposite to meritocratic teams in domestic leagues not controlled by Unions, giving wider continued exposure for players and fans alike.

European/Super Rugby competitions are only recent developments in the history of the game and have undoubtedly skewed priorities for domestic structures with elitist priorities which have lead to a thinning of fan bases and player numbers alike.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bWLbaYHlI9w&feature=youtu.be

The Oracle wrote:Yes Scarlets are a good example I think. Pivac did well but took time to bed in, Mooar was good and I thought Delaney would have been good in the long run. Scarlets now have Peel at the helm with some recent ex-players as coaches. Ben Franks is a big name player but a relative newcomer as a coach at this level. Dai Flanagan is only a few years out of playing and is now backs coach for a European rugby side. And he wasn’t great as a player either. Hugh Hogan? Leinster age grade and A teams. And Peel himself? Not a huge run up to him becoming Scarlets head coach. And I wonder if the results and performances are indicative of a coaching team a little out of depth at this level?

If we ignore the ridiculous amount of injuries we have had (think we were missing 21 players for one of the games against the Dragons), surely you can't say that Pivac did well after the initial rocky period & say that the early results & performances for Peel & co mean they're out of their depth. We have played some really nice rugby this season, scoring tries for fun at times but we do need to work on our defence. I was worried when we appointed Hugh Hogan as a defence coach when he was contact skills coach at Leinster & given only Zebre have conceded more points that us, my worry remains.

The Oracle wrote:Some good points there, Rec. An interesting one about the football and something I think perfectly sums up the ridiculousness of the current ‘regional’ approach in rugby. People say we’re losing fans to football because club rugby fans are becoming disenfranchised. Yet look at the top football clubs in Wales: Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Wrexham. The FAW didn’t force them to ditch their place names and become ‘East Wales Titans’ or ‘North Wales Raiders’. They have developed a fan base from all over Wales simply by existing, winning a bit, getting some promotions (and then relegation)…..all while being named after the places they are based.

I really have a problem when people compare the regions to the pro football teams in Wales, there are so many variables.

Take Swansea City FC for example, who are their direct competition ? Who could they lose fans to ? Swansea city FC get fans from all over Swansea and West Wales, I have a caravan in Tenby, and you see loads of Swansea city tops being worn over there.

Now in the same area, you have Ospreys, Scarlets and about 100 or so rugby clubs, all in direct competition with each other, even teams like Neath and Llandovery and Camerthen in the Welsh prem. All rugby teams, around two regions with not only people directly involved, but going to support them as well, all these people might be lost to the regions, but they are not lost to Welsh rugby, if you average it out between all the age grades at all the rugby clubs, players wise, you would be at about 100 people, adults and kids, then times that by lets say 100 clubs, that's potentially ten thousand people in that region who might not have the time or money to be in two places at once, so they cannot go and watch their region, and that does not even include all the fans. Swansea city FC will not get that problem at that scale.

Secondly, but not surprisingly, people are not taking into account the pyramid/competition the football clubs all mentioned are in. Yes, that's right, the English leagues. All clubs that you can go and watch your team play against without having to fly or sail to get to and lets not forget the historic rivalries that the border clubs have, Bristol City, Bristol Rovers ect....

If we are going to compare the professional football teams with the pro rugby teams lets take everything into account. I bet if you added Cardiff and Dragons average gate, and compared it to Cardiff cities average gate, they would not be that far off.

The Oracle wrote:Back in 2003 I was fully on board with the regional approach in rugby but for the past 7 or so years I’ve come to realise how damaging it has been. It has developed a sense of entitlement in fans across Wales. Suddenly fans feel they need to be ‘represented’ and if there is no pro team that covers their area then rugby is somehow doing them a disservice and they decide to walk away. But even in the halcyon days of the Welsh top flight before the regions you still had only 12 or so pro teams. All town and city based, and proud to use their place name. Places like Newport, Pontypool, Caerphilly, Cardiff, Pontypridd, Llanelli, Ebbw Vale, Swansea, Bridgend, Neath, etc. Only those 12 or so towns and cities were ‘represented’ in pro rugby, yet there were no calls of disenfranchisement as we hear now. Just picking places at random now, but if you were from Abertillery, Monmouth, Newtown, Aberystwyth, Cardigan….you could name hundreds of places…..they didn’t have a pro team either. But it was never an issue. Their club teams had some support and locals probably supported a pro team in varying degrees of interest too. But the regional approach has created this situation where everyone feels they have to have a pro side to represent them. Football shows us that clubs do not need to represent anyone. They can represent you if you support them, regardless of where you live. There are big groups of valleys Cardiff city fans, for example. Yet the thought of that in rugby is apparently out of the question. I know of coach services to take fans from the valleys to Liverpool to watch them play, and they are oversubscribed. Liverpool doesn’t represent the valleys of South Wales. So unfortunately I think we’ve opened some sort of can of worms with regional rugby and I don’t know how we’re going to get it back to where it was. If at all.

Thats a very unfair view on things. We saw the outrage a few months ago when the idea of merging two regions caused.

The thing is, people were not demanding to be given something, people were demanding to be included. At least with three of the regions you had something to get behind "Gwent" Dragons. "Neath/Swansea" Ospreys, "Llanelli" Scarlets, what were the other region called "CARDIFF" Blues.

How can you expect a supporter to start supporting a team that refuses to have anything but what they always have been ? There is no sense of entitlement, and it is comments like that which are rife, that ruins any bridge building.

Yes not every club were as elite as the Pontypridd's and Cardiff's and Neath's of this world, but even the teams in the lower divisions were included, as they had the opportunity to challenge, play or emulate these clubs. Every fan felt included, and that is what we need to understand, it's not a sense of entitlement, far from it.

You mention buses going to Liverpool, yes you are correct, they have them in Merthyr, but perhaps we should consider the product on offer, the URC unfortunately is not a product to be desired at the moment, hopefully it will be, but they first need to repair the damage they caused by putting their product on a channel nobody in Wales were going to fork out for, bar a few of the regional fans, and they need to stop messing about with it, and make it easier for the average casual fan to start following, its changed so many times since it's inception, nobody knows what's going on, the Premier Football league has bee just that for 30 years.

Again, sorry if it sounds like I am having a rant, but I am not.  

Pot Hale wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

If not how much more do you reckon they should get ?

If the WRU want the regions to be beating Leinster, then they need a squad that costs the same as Leinster. The Scarlets squad is massively underperforming given it's cost (a few players are on salaries that are perhaps not befitting their talents). The other 3 regions are about where they should be given their resources.

Leinster are competing on a complete different level....only the French sides come close to what they're spending.

Leinster get the same amount of money from IRFU as the other provinces on contributions to player salaries.  However,
- More of their players get central contracts : Leinster 7, compared to Munster 3, Ulster 2, Connacht 1, so they have more scope in their budget as central contracts are not in their budgets.
- In addition since the provinces also have to part-pay for their players from their own income, Leinster earn more gate monies, sponsors than the other 3.  

 

Given the Irish provinces are all owned by the IRFU, all players are paid by the IRFU. They are literally all contracted to the Union. So it's disingenuous at the very best to claim such a ridiculous thing like "Leinster get the same amount of money from IRFU as the other provinces on contributions to player salaries"

Central contacts just mean they're paid more and have more control over things like access. You can say the branches are recharged for players but it's all one controlling organisation.

That's what the annual c45m Euros goes on. Players and coaches.