The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

Why is everyone getting so hung up on the Welsh teams playing against the English? Even the one poster who wants it says it is not going to happen!

The situation in Welsh rugby does appear intractable. The relationship between the WRU, the regions and the fans appears broken and for me as an outsider it looks like the WRU should be ones waving the olive branch.

Regionalism doesn't seem to have worked, but there is no easy or even difficult way out of it. Money is a big issue and in my view some the high price headline players should be allowed to play outside Wales so that the money that would have been spent on their contracts could be used to buy in high quality coaches. Letting the high profile players go elsewhere doesn't seem to have caused the Scots too many problems in my view. Risky and not a quick fix, but the only gamble I can see available and not likely to be the big fix.

The WRU needs to find ways to fund the regions better, and more equitably. Private money will still be required and that will be a difficult thing to manage.

The URC needs successful Welsh teams and the Welsh teams need the URC to be successful. At the moment the Welsh have problems, but it is not that long since the Scots were in trouble or when Ulster and Connacht were fighting it out at the bottom of the table so let's not throw too many stones.

A pandemic free year may allow the schedule to be a schedule rather than a vague guess at a programme, which will help but the inequality introduced by the additional "derbies" remains as does the issue of poor quality officiating. The other Unions need to be addressing these to help themselves and the Welsh.

carpet baboon wrote:

The Oracle wrote:1 person has mentioned it (joining the English league) on this thread! 1 ffs!

Yes and I was just giving my opinion on why it would never happen. That's what these things are for ain't they? Comments and opinion's.
Or have I got that wrong?

Was I replying to you directly? If so, I would have used the quote function   (although I appreciate that my post was the one after yours).

My comment was aimed more at the cumulative responses to the suggestion of only 1 poster. I disagree with the general consensus that this is the wish of ‘the Welsh’.

In response to an earlier question from one poster asking ‘what do the Welsh want’. Well, you’re not going to get any general consensus and agreement on that any more than if you asked fans of ANY nation for consensus on preferred kick off times. Different people will obviously want different things. There is no one Welsh preference. For example, I respect LDs opinion in the OP and can see that many are so fed up with Welsh club rugby that they are happy to say ‘to hell with pro rugby and team Wales’ and let’s just go to an essentially semi pro all-Welsh league as at least that will give regular games, local rivalries, travelling fans, etc. It’s not my preference and I’ve outlined why above, but I respect his and other fans’ right to want that in their lives. Some will want to join the English. I haven’t heard a great deal of noise about that to be honest, apart from a couple on here and PhilBB and his lot on Twitter (who are quite vocal on there in fairness). But I’ve seen just as many, if not more, people want the regions to revert to clubs as the best way forward and that would include staying in the current comp. Not sure how we please everyone. Probably can’t. The creation of these made up ‘regions’ has unfortunately created a lot of entitlement as they were/are meant to cover the whole of Wales, so if you remove them and revert to pro clubs then people will scream ‘I haven’t got a team to support’, which to me is nonsense but that’s a different argument for another thread perhaps. But overall no option will be easy and all are going to cause problems and issues. But change we must, even if staying in the Pro16 (my preference). We can’t just carry on as we are, getting worse and just accepting it.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Welsh going alone would make the problem worse as the URC can make the hard decisions and WRU remain clean, but if WRU are responsible for all decisions then internal fighting will be worse.  It's why Ireland brought in a stranger to make decisions about contracts because it's his fault if it goes wrong.

Which is why they need to be in a  league controlled by clubs like in England and France. Unions should be nowhere near pro club rugby competitions.

Unions still control the leagues as the overall governing body. It is why all the clubs have to register with their union and why they have to ask permission for everything they do.

No Union runs the URC, it's an independent organisation just like the PRL

Brendan wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Welsh going alone would make the problem worse as the URC can make the hard decisions and WRU remain clean, but if WRU are responsible for all decisions then internal fighting will be worse.  It's why Ireland brought in a stranger to make decisions about contracts because it's his fault if it goes wrong.

Which is why they need to be in a  league controlled by clubs like in England and France. Unions should be nowhere near pro club rugby competitions.

Unions still control the leagues as the overall governing body.  It is why all the clubs have to register with their union and why they have to ask permission for everything they do.

No Union runs the URC, it's an independent organisation just like the PRL

No. The Unions don't control the English or French leagues at all. They just sign them off and allow them to exist. The English and French leagues are run by the clubs in them. They are the shareholders, which means the decisions are made are by the teams competing in the actual league. The URC is not like the PRL (the PRL isn't a league, it's a body of clubs) - because the URC is made up of shareholders, and those shareholders are majority wise the Unions not the clubs.

Therefore, you get a ridiculous situation where privately owned clubs are in a competition that has decisions being made by Unions, which we know in some cases have a direct conflict of interest with clubs. Can't believe I am having to explain this in 2022.

The Oracle wrote:But overall no option will be easy and all are going to cause problems and issues. But change we must, even if staying in the Pro16 (my preference). We can’t just carry on as we are, getting worse and just accepting it.

Can you explain what you mean here. You seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim that there must be change, yet you want the Welsh clubs to stay in the URC?

What change do you want then?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:But overall no option will be easy and all are going to cause problems and issues. But change we must, even if staying in the Pro16 (my preference). We can’t just carry on as we are, getting worse and just accepting it.

Can you explain what you mean here. You seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim that there must be change, yet you want the Welsh clubs to stay in the URC?

What change do you want then?

Yes, I'm simply saying we can't just continue as we are without doing anything - e.g. same funding, same relationship with the WRU, same teams (perhaps). But we can stay in the Pro-whatever with changes to the regions (possibly clubs instead?); changes to funding (WRU, private, etc. perhaps linked to changes in the 'entities' that are entered); changes to the archaic and embarrassing WRU themselves which might bring benefits to the pro clubs entered into the competition (e.g. splitting the pro and amateur game); adjustments to the 60 cap rule perhaps (I like it, but I agree with others that could be tweaked for maximum benefit); changes to NWQ quota numbers, if these still exist (as the quota somewhat drives up the price of sub-standard local players to fill the squads); etc. So changes can happen while still being within the Pro16.

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:But overall no option will be easy and all are going to cause problems and issues. But change we must, even if staying in the Pro16 (my preference). We can’t just carry on as we are, getting worse and just accepting it.

Can you explain what you mean here. You seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim that there must be change, yet you want the Welsh clubs to stay in the URC?

What change do you want then?

Yes, I'm simply saying we can't just continue as we are without doing anything - e.g. same funding, same relationship with the WRU, same teams (perhaps).  But we can stay in the Pro-whatever with changes to the regions (possibly clubs instead?); changes to funding (WRU, private, etc. perhaps linked to changes in the 'entities' that are entered); changes to the archaic and embarrassing WRU themselves which might bring benefits to the pro clubs entered into the competition (e.g. splitting the pro and amateur game); adjustments to the 60 cap rule perhaps (I like it, but I agree with others that could be tweaked for maximum benefit); changes to NWQ quota numbers, if these still exist (as the quota somewhat drives up the price of sub-standard local players to fill the squads); etc.  So changes can happen while still being within the Pro16.  

So you want all those changes but you are happy for a Welsh team to fly to Africa for a game of rugby? Or for continued 7pm kick offs for home games. Or for games on tv at 5.15pm on a weekday? None of those changes you mention will affect anything if the Welsh clubs are continuing to play in the URC.

When the Scarlets won the league in 2017, there was a feelgood factor around the club for 6 months. The crowds went up by 2,000, revenue went up, club shop sales soared and it was thought that a corner had been turned. But it hadn't. The league got more and more of a circus. Less and less visible to people here. So few people care or know about it that it is quite remarkable. Occasionally you get a welsh derby on in pubs or Cardiff seems a bit busier if a Welsh team is playing in it, but that's it. That's the extent of it. It's killed us. We are on the brink of having clubs as competitive as the Italians. And the sad thing is, people warned of this years and years ago.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:But overall no option will be easy and all are going to cause problems and issues. But change we must, even if staying in the Pro16 (my preference). We can’t just carry on as we are, getting worse and just accepting it.

Can you explain what you mean here. You seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim that there must be change, yet you want the Welsh clubs to stay in the URC?

What change do you want then?

Yes, I'm simply saying we can't just continue as we are without doing anything - e.g. same funding, same relationship with the WRU, same teams (perhaps).  But we can stay in the Pro-whatever with changes to the regions (possibly clubs instead?); changes to funding (WRU, private, etc. perhaps linked to changes in the 'entities' that are entered); changes to the archaic and embarrassing WRU themselves which might bring benefits to the pro clubs entered into the competition (e.g. splitting the pro and amateur game); adjustments to the 60 cap rule perhaps (I like it, but I agree with others that could be tweaked for maximum benefit); changes to NWQ quota numbers, if these still exist (as the quota somewhat drives up the price of sub-standard local players to fill the squads); etc.  So changes can happen while still being within the Pro16.  

So you want all those changes but you are happy for a Welsh team to fly to Africa for a game of rugby? Or for continued 7pm kick offs for home games. Or for games on tv at 5.15pm on a weekday? None of those changes you mention will affect anything if the Welsh clubs are continuing to play in the URC.

When the Scarlets won the league in 2017, there was a feelgood factor around the club for 6 months. The crowds went up by 2,000, revenue went up, club shop sales soared and it was thought that a corner had been turned. But it hadn't. The league got more and more of a circus. Less and less visible to people here. So few people care or know about it that it is quite remarkable. Occasionally you get a welsh derby on in pubs or Cardiff seems a bit busier if a Welsh team is playing in it, but that's it.  That's the extent of it. It's killed us. We are on the brink of having clubs as competitive as the Italians. And the sad thing is, people warned of this years and years ago.

You're idea was to drop the Welsh teams into the second division of the English league structure where attendances are tiny in comparison, where there is no real tv interest and accepted that you'd lose your big internationals though?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

You're idea was to drop the Welsh teams into the second division of the English league structure where attendances are tiny in comparison, where there is no real tv interest and accepted that you'd lose your big internationals though?

And?

It wouldn't help with any of the issues you ended with.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It wouldn't help with any of the issues you ended with.

That's right, because they wouldn't be issues. There wouldn't be 5.15pm kick offs on a weekday in another continent.

'When the Scarlets won the league in 2017, there was a feelgood factor around the club for 6 months. The crowds went up by 2,000, revenue went up, club shop sales soared and it was thought that a corner had been turned. But it hadn't. The league got more and more of a circus. Less and less visible to people here. So few people care or know about it that it is quite remarkable. Occasionally you get a welsh derby on in pubs or Cardiff seems a bit busier if a Welsh team is playing in it, but that's it.  That's the extent of it. It's killed us. We are on the brink of having clubs as competitive as the Italians. And the sad thing is, people warned of this years and years ago.'

You're just ignoring this then now?

You won't dictate kick offs though of course you wouldn't be playing in SA, just in Jersey.

No 7&1/2 wrote:'When the Scarlets won the league in 2017, there was a feelgood factor around the club for 6 months. The crowds went up by 2,000, revenue went up, club shop sales soared and it was thought that a corner had been turned. But it hadn't. The league got more and more of a circus. Less and less visible to people here. So few people care or know about it that it is quite remarkable. Occasionally you get a welsh derby on in pubs or Cardiff seems a bit busier if a Welsh team is playing in it, but that's it.  That's the extent of it. It's killed us. We are on the brink of having clubs as competitive as the Italians. And the sad thing is, people warned of this years and years ago.'

You're just ignoring this then now?

You won't dictate kick offs though of course you wouldn't be playing in SA, just in Jersey.

Those are issues in the URC. Those are issues with playing in that league. Those are issues in trying to compete with the Leinster's and the Toulouses etc.

I don't give a stuff about the quality of opposition or crowds or anything anymore. The URC has killed off the Welsh 4 to such an extent that I would sacrifice all that just to be in a properly run league. And if that means that the quality of the squad declines and it means that the team that I have supported for 35 years is no longer an elite rugby club then so be it. If that means Wales have fewer top quality players in Wales then so be it. Preparing Wales for test rugby isn't my concern.

There comes a time when you need to enjoy watching your team win or lose. Regular kick offs. Saturdays. Attendable away games. Enjoyment. I envy someone who supports a lower league football side like Bristol City. So many regular games to go to. So many away trips. So much routine. I have none of that. It ahs been ripped away from me. I would go and support Bath rugby or Bristol City or Newport County. But they are not my team.

The URC has destroyed something I have followed for nearly all my life.

As an outsider I guess it depends on what you mean by saving Welsh rugby. If its to make the current 4 main sides successful, the answer is more money to pay better players to come in. There are a handful of Welsh that would improve the teams but realistically you'd be looking for top quality foreign imports. Throw the money to get the likes of de Klerk, Eztebeth, turn Tuilagis head with money they can't refuse. Need private investors, but where do they come from? Or as LD says cut your losses. PLay semi pro and accept the best Welsh players will play outside of your league in England, France, Japan etc.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:'When the Scarlets won the league in 2017, there was a feelgood factor around the club for 6 months. The crowds went up by 2,000, revenue went up, club shop sales soared and it was thought that a corner had been turned. But it hadn't. The league got more and more of a circus. Less and less visible to people here. So few people care or know about it that it is quite remarkable. Occasionally you get a welsh derby on in pubs or Cardiff seems a bit busier if a Welsh team is playing in it, but that's it.  That's the extent of it. It's killed us. We are on the brink of having clubs as competitive as the Italians. And the sad thing is, people warned of this years and years ago.'

You're just ignoring this then now?

You won't dictate kick offs though of course you wouldn't be playing in SA, just in Jersey.

Those are issues in the URC. Those are issues with playing in that league. Those are issues in trying to compete with the Leinster's and the Toulouses etc.

I don't give a stuff about the quality of opposition or crowds or anything anymore. The URC has killed off the Welsh 4 to such an extent that I would sacrifice all that just to be in a properly run league. And if that means that the quality of the squad declines and it means that the team that I have supported for 35 years is no longer an elite rugby club then so be it. If that means Wales have fewer top quality players in Wales then so be it. Preparing Wales for test rugby isn't my concern.

There comes a time when you need to enjoy watching your team win or lose. Regular kick offs. Saturdays. Attendable away games. Enjoyment. I envy someone who supports a lower league football side like Bristol City. So many regular games to go to. So many away trips. So much routine. I have none of that. It ahs been ripped away from me. I would go and support Bath rugby or Bristol City or Newport County. But they are not my team.

The URC has destroyed something I have followed for nearly all my life.

A league that denies promotion to the people who finish top! Fair enough, though you'd prefer to languish in the lower divisions of a foreign league.

Don't care about promotion. Just want to go to some games.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:But overall no option will be easy and all are going to cause problems and issues. But change we must, even if staying in the Pro16 (my preference). We can’t just carry on as we are, getting worse and just accepting it.

Can you explain what you mean here. You seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim that there must be change, yet you want the Welsh clubs to stay in the URC?

What change do you want then?

Yes, I'm simply saying we can't just continue as we are without doing anything - e.g. same funding, same relationship with the WRU, same teams (perhaps).  But we can stay in the Pro-whatever with changes to the regions (possibly clubs instead?); changes to funding (WRU, private, etc. perhaps linked to changes in the 'entities' that are entered); changes to the archaic and embarrassing WRU themselves which might bring benefits to the pro clubs entered into the competition (e.g. splitting the pro and amateur game); adjustments to the 60 cap rule perhaps (I like it, but I agree with others that could be tweaked for maximum benefit); changes to NWQ quota numbers, if these still exist (as the quota somewhat drives up the price of sub-standard local players to fill the squads); etc.  So changes can happen while still being within the Pro16.  

So you want all those changes but you are happy for a Welsh team to fly to Africa for a game of rugby? Or for continued 7pm kick offs for home games. Or for games on tv at 5.15pm on a weekday? None of those changes you mention will affect anything if the Welsh clubs are continuing to play in the URC.

When the Scarlets won the league in 2017, there was a feelgood factor around the club for 6 months. The crowds went up by 2,000, revenue went up, club shop sales soared and it was thought that a corner had been turned. But it hadn't. The league got more and more of a circus. Less and less visible to people here. So few people care or know about it that it is quite remarkable. Occasionally you get a welsh derby on in pubs or Cardiff seems a bit busier if a Welsh team is playing in it, but that's it.  That's the extent of it. It's killed us. We are on the brink of having clubs as competitive as the Italians. And the sad thing is, people warned of this years and years ago.

The alternatives only appear to be:

. LDs 8-10 team Welsh League, which will be a sem-pro level due to the teams not being able to afford to pay many pros.
. Joining the English, which you have already agreed won't happen.

So yes, I'm happy to play in a cross-border league given the above choices. If you have another option I'd be happy to hear it.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Don't care about promotion. Just want to go to some games.

Why not just follow a team in the Welsh prem?

No 7&1/2 wrote:'When the Scarlets won the league in 2017, there was a feelgood factor around the club for 6 months. The crowds went up by 2,000, revenue went up, club shop sales soared and it was thought that a corner had been turned. But it hadn't. The league got more and more of a circus. Less and less visible to people here. So few people care or know about it that it is quite remarkable. Occasionally you get a welsh derby on in pubs or Cardiff seems a bit busier if a Welsh team is playing in it, but that's it.  That's the extent of it. It's killed us. We are on the brink of having clubs as competitive as the Italians. And the sad thing is, people warned of this years and years ago.'

You're just ignoring this then now?

You won't dictate kick offs though of course you wouldn't be playing in SA, just in Jersey.

The Scarlets had very impressive attendances the year they reached the SF of the HC, they even got 5k over to the Aviva for that semi final (one of best atmospheres I've experienced). There really aren't many club sides in world rugby capable of getting that many to travel, that's how good that was. They really looked to have been building something special but results and thus attendances fell away very quickly.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Don't care about promotion. Just want to go to some games.

Very rarely go to away games anyway, which is obviously true of most fans, so for that majority as above you're looking at the same amount of homes games in the season, though it'll be cheaper tickets!

The Oracle wrote:

So yes, I'm happy to play in a cross-border league given the above choices.  If you have another option I'd be happy to hear it.

Then don't expect any of the issues you raise to be resolved any time soon.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

So yes, I'm happy to play in a cross-border league given the above choices.  If you have another option I'd be happy to hear it.

Then don't expect any of the issues you raise to be resolved any time soon.

Same to you, if you want to join the English leagues.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:'When the Scarlets won the league in 2017, there was a feelgood factor around the club for 6 months. The crowds went up by 2,000, revenue went up, club shop sales soared and it was thought that a corner had been turned. But it hadn't. The league got more and more of a circus. Less and less visible to people here. So few people care or know about it that it is quite remarkable. Occasionally you get a welsh derby on in pubs or Cardiff seems a bit busier if a Welsh team is playing in it, but that's it.  That's the extent of it. It's killed us. We are on the brink of having clubs as competitive as the Italians. And the sad thing is, people warned of this years and years ago.'

You're just ignoring this then now?

You won't dictate kick offs though of course you wouldn't be playing in SA, just in Jersey.

The Scarlets had very impressive attendances the year they reached the SF of the HC, they even got 5k over to the Aviva for that semi final (one of best atmospheres I've experienced). There really aren't many club sides in world rugby capable of getting that many to travel, that's how good that was. They really looked to have been building something special but results and thus attendances fell away very quickly.

Yeah for me, that's something that you will see when a team is flying high, at least in the intial surge. Boro built a 35000 person stadium off the back of Bryan Robson, Ravanelli and Juninho. Getting slightly less now with the likes of Joe Lumley

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Don't care about promotion. Just want to go to some games.

Why not just follow a team in the Welsh prem?

The Welsh prem would actually have some better grounds too. Just look at where Ampthill play for example

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Don't care about promotion. Just want to go to some games.

Why not just follow a team in the Welsh prem?

Because they're not my team. If you don't have a team to support it's easy to pick one and follow. But I do. They're just being slowly killed off.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Welsh going alone would make the problem worse as the URC can make the hard decisions and WRU remain clean, but if WRU are responsible for all decisions then internal fighting will be worse.  It's why Ireland brought in a stranger to make decisions about contracts because it's his fault if it goes wrong.

Which is why they need to be in a  league controlled by clubs like in England and France. Unions should be nowhere near pro club rugby competitions.

Unions still control the leagues as the overall governing body.  It is why all the clubs have to register with their union and why they have to ask permission for everything they do.

No Union runs the URC, it's an independent organisation just like the PRL

No. The Unions don't control the English or French leagues at all. They just sign them off and allow them to exist. The English and French leagues are run by the clubs in them. They are the shareholders, which means the decisions are made are by the teams competing in the actual league. The URC is not like the PRL (the PRL isn't a league, it's a body of clubs) - because the URC is made up of shareholders, and those shareholders are majority wise the Unions not the clubs.

Therefore, you get a ridiculous situation where privately owned clubs are in a competition that has decisions being made by Unions, which we know in some cases have a direct conflict of interest with clubs. Can't believe I am having to explain this in 2022.

You should read up on French law in regard to sports governing bodies and what they are able to do, it's why PSG were not involved in the breakaway league even though Man City was. As long as the Premership is part of the RFU tree they get RFU money and abide by RFU rules.  The PRL could leave the RFU control but then would lose all the funding the PRL get to prop them up.  There is a reason that both leagues have not removed themselves from Union control, as we saw with the PRL just having reduced RFU funding has resulted in ring fencing (done only after RFU said they coul) and salary reduction, if they lost all funding they would not have a league.  As you say yourself the RFU and FFR must sign off on things for the leagues, is that not what control is.

URC has always been a Union run league and that has never changed.  How those teams are picked is up to the shareholder.  There was no uproar when when Welsh and Italian teams changed from private to union(full or part) run teams.  When roumours came out about Ospreys being in trouble  the rest of the league knew it was up to the WRU to find another team. It is also debatable if teams like Scarlets are not Union controlled when by their own CEO says about £5/8.5m wages are paid for by the WRU, so might say the Scarlets are more influenced by the Union than the private owner.  Unless you feel Munster and Leinster are part privately run as they also have part of play wages paid for by private groups.

If you are saying that private teams are being given disadvantages to the other teams in the league, as far as I know there is none and the URC only do the normal things 15 players on a field, 23 in match day squad etc. If Ospreys hired the SA WC squad the URC with do nothing about it.

Final thing for me is you've named lack of home games or ability to get to away games, underfunding, lack of visibility to the league and hence interest. Amount of games will remain the same but if you prefer the trip to Donny than Dublin fair enough, the money would be worse, the visibility worse. Will the ability to travel to more away games truly mean that the teams will no longer be killed off? Fair enough you're happy to see worse quality rugby but would other fans; as you say when Scarlets were successful thats when they got better gates.

The other thing is that although you're not bothered the national team, it's likely to damage that too. Can't see that a lot of fans wouldn't be annoyed by that.

Brendan wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Welsh going alone would make the problem worse as the URC can make the hard decisions and WRU remain clean, but if WRU are responsible for all decisions then internal fighting will be worse.  It's why Ireland brought in a stranger to make decisions about contracts because it's his fault if it goes wrong.

Which is why they need to be in a  league controlled by clubs like in England and France. Unions should be nowhere near pro club rugby competitions.

Unions still control the leagues as the overall governing body.  It is why all the clubs have to register with their union and why they have to ask permission for everything they do.

No Union runs the URC, it's an independent organisation just like the PRL

No. The Unions don't control the English or French leagues at all. They just sign them off and allow them to exist. The English and French leagues are run by the clubs in them. They are the shareholders, which means the decisions are made are by the teams competing in the actual league. The URC is not like the PRL (the PRL isn't a league, it's a body of clubs) - because the URC is made up of shareholders, and those shareholders are majority wise the Unions not the clubs.

Therefore, you get a ridiculous situation where privately owned clubs are in a competition that has decisions being made by Unions, which we know in some cases have a direct conflict of interest with clubs. Can't believe I am having to explain this in 2022.

You should read up on French law in regard to sports governing bodies and what they are able to do, it's why PSG were not involved in the breakaway league even though Man City was. As long as the Premership is part of the RFU tree they get RFU money and abide by RFU rules.  The PRL could leave the RFU control but then would lose all the funding the PRL get to prop them up.  There is a reason that both leagues have not removed themselves from Union control, as we saw with the PRL just having reduced RFU funding has resulted in ring fencing (done only after RFU said they coul) and salary reduction, if they lost all funding they would not have a league.  As you say yourself the RFU and FFR must sign off on things for the leagues, is that not what control is.

URC has always been a Union run league and that has never changed.  How those teams are picked is up to the shareholder.  There was no uproar when when Welsh and Italian teams changed from private to union(full or part) run teams.  When roumours came out about Ospreys being in trouble  the rest of the league knew it was up to the WRU to find another team. It is also debatable if teams like Scarlets are not Union controlled when by their own CEO says about £5/8.5m wages are paid for by the WRU, so might say the Scarlets are more influenced by the Union than the private owner.  Unless you feel Munster and Leinster are part privately run as they also have part of play wages paid for by private groups.

If you are saying that private teams are being given disadvantages to the other teams in the league, as far as I know there is none and the URC only do the normal things 15 players on a field, 23 in match day squad etc.  If Ospreys hired the SA WC squad the URC with do nothing about it.

There's a partnership approach to it. The PRL are the ones who agree internally to things such as wage caps etc not the RFU. If they lost all funding from the union there are still gate receipts and tv money, some clubs would just have to cut their cloth.

Brendan wrote:It is also debatable if teams like Scarlets are not Union controlled when by their own CEO says about £5/8.5m wages are paid for by the WRU, so might say the Scarlets are more influenced by the Union than the private owner.  Unless you feel Munster and Leinster are part privately run as they also have part of play wages paid for by private groups.

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That's gold. You've been on this forum years and you haven't taken a single thing into your brain anybody has ever told you.

Those involved in Welsh Rugby need to answer this question.  It's the same debate Australia is having and Scotland, Italy and South Africa seem to have answered.

Do we want the Regions to produce players who are international quaility or do they want a home for their internationals?

All 5 countries have limited resources and can only do one or the other.
It seems to me currently that Wales is providing places for their internationals which means all that funding results in the not international players being unaffordable and so have to leave.  I don't know why it is but Scarlets probably have one of the best 23s in the league with lots of Test experince but the cheap squad players seem to player better for Scarlets and their CEO has basically said the internationals aren't cost effective even though they only pay 20% of their wage.

If the Regions had a more balanced squad where 2 players are fighting it out for a spot training goes up and people give it there all on the field.  Munster have had this issue aswell where the kids do great and the internationals come in and are less focused, in Leinster internationals have to earn their place back in training and on the field.

Regions should work on getting players to Test level, once they become to expensive move them on and split the wage bill between the next two players. Could Glasgow have developed Hastings if Finn was taking all the wages and playing time. Maybe the answer is all the Regions get the same funding (Dragon only allowed to get extra funding on top capped at average input by the other three owners). 2 teams get the internationals and the other two get the players below international but get first refusal on the rest of the players.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:It is also debatable if teams like Scarlets are not Union controlled when by their own CEO says about £5/8.5m wages are paid for by the WRU, so might say the Scarlets are more influenced by the Union than the private owner.  Unless you feel Munster and Leinster are part privately run as they also have part of play wages paid for by private groups.

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That's gold. You've been on this forum years and you haven't taken a single thing into your brain anybody has ever told you.

So you don't agree with the Scarlets CEO that he did in a publicate interview following the exit to Sale last year in the Champions Cup. £5m a year just for wages (Not releases, TV revenue etc) is probably close to what Glasgow, Edinburgh and Connacht get off their Union for wages.

It's also not clear cut to say that the 3 Welsh teams are privately owned/controlled as what is considered owned/controlled. WRU deciede who who plays in the league so the Union controls that. They are paying alot more than half of the playing budget. They tell them where to play and when to play and the Union signs off on players being signed.

But when said private companies didn't get free money over Covid but got a loan like most businesses suddenly it's the WRU fault because they owe it to them (If they owed it to them it would have been paid or legally sought). So are they really owner by the private owner or is it a partnership, considering the vast majority of income for each union comes from the WRU and that can lead to legal complications when companies go bust.

Who is the main reason that Scarlets, Ospreys and Cardiff are still functioning organisations, is it the Union or the Private owner. If one of them walked away which one would result in Scarlets, Ospreys or Cardiff going the way of Warriors or Arroni, that is who controls it and control is all that matters.

Brendan wrote:

Who is the main reason that Scarlets, Ospreys and Cardiff are still functioning organisations, is it the Union or the Private owner.

The private owner Brendan. If not for them, they would all have been bust in about 2005. The money received from the WRU is mostly what is owed to the 4 pro clubs. For the release of players and competition moneys earned by the regions.

I mean I myself must have explained this to you around 17 times throughout the years. If you are going to type nonsense into the internet, expect to be called out for it.

The teams would be a little stuck without the WRU paying towards those wages though currently. Obviously much less of an issue in the Championship or a semi pro league.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The teams would be a little stuck without the WRU paying towards those wages though currently. Obviously much less of an issue in the Championship or a semi pro league.

No not really. That's the WRUs choice to introduce that, it's not a kind hearted offer. The years when the likes of the Ospreys had big, quality league winning squads was when there were no dual contracts or elite 38 player squads with 80% wages paid. Arguably far better times.

Oh right fair enough. Why do you think the private owners aren't pumping that money into the clubs elsehwere then?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh right fair enough. Why do you think the private owners aren't pumping that money into the clubs elsehwere then?

What money? What clubs elsewhere?

We'll step through my logic here then. I said that the clubs would be a bit stuck without the 80% of wages paid by the WRU (however that is split among them currently). You said 'no, not really' so I took that to mean the clubs/ private owners would be able to pay it anyway; was that not what you meant?

No 7&1/2 wrote:We'll step through my logic here then. I said that the clubs would be a bit stuck without the 80% of wages paid by the WRU (however that is split among them currently). You said 'no, not really' so I took that to mean the clubs/ private owners would be able to pay it anyway; was that not what you meant?

No, they'd do what they did before - employ cheaper overseas, project and Non test qualified players instead, and the expensive Wales players would go to Saracens and Bath. That's why they brought the policy in.

Yeah. So in the current league they'd be really struggling. In the Championship or a semi pro league less of an issue.

Exactly. Championship would be perfect for the Welsh sides.

And hence the underfunding is only in comparison to sides like Leinster then? So presumably any team spending big in the Championship like a Bristol the same issues around money would raise their heads.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And hence the underfunding is only in comparison to sides like Leinster then? So presumably any team spending big in the Championship like a Bristol the same issues around money would raise their heads.

Absolutely, there is a salary cap in competent, fair leagues, hence why Leinster walk the league every year recently and should win Europe at a canter,

Part of the need for that WRU wage payment is because they want them (the 38 chosen ones) for extra time outside of the international window, including not being released back to the clubs during the whole 6 nations (unless they want them to get some game time). That’s a lot of time to be without squad members when there are only 4 teams (compared to, say, England whose elite squad is spread across 3 times as many teams). So the contribution towards wages is needed to allow the regions to buy in some extra players to compensate. If the 80% WRU payment stopped then the regions would revert back to releasing players just in the normal windows and the squads would not need to be as big, which would bring their wage bill down. So it’s not really a ‘gift’ from the WRU, more a payment/compensation for taking them away for so much of the season and leaving bit holes in the squads.

Stopping the extra player access thing (something Gatland wanted) might impact team Wales, but it didn’t seem to make much difference this year having all that extra time in camp! I wonder if a return to the normal international window might be better for the regions as they’d have more internationals on duty more often, more continuity in squads, not having to play as many games depleted against clubs from other nations who are sticking to the release windows, etc. And this might be better for the fans who get to see more stars and fewer games with second string teams being put out.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And hence the underfunding is only in comparison to sides like Leinster then? So presumably any team spending big in the Championship like a Bristol the same issues around money would raise their heads.

Absolutely, there is a salary cap in competent, fair leagues, hence why Leinster walk the league every year recently and should win Europe at a canter,

Don't believe there is a cap in the Championship is there. That may have passed me by but certainly never used to be.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And hence the underfunding is only in comparison to sides like Leinster then? So presumably any team spending big in the Championship like a Bristol the same issues around money would raise their heads.

Absolutely, there is a salary cap in competent, fair leagues, hence why Leinster walk the league every year recently and should win Europe at a canter,

Don't believe there is a cap in the Championship is there. That may have passed me by but certainly never used to be.

It's not fully pro I don't think

The Oracle wrote:Part of the need for that WRU wage payment is because they want them (the 38 chosen ones) for extra time outside of the international window, including not being released back to the clubs during the whole 6 nations (unless they want them to get some game time). That’s a lot of time to be without squad members when there are only 4 teams (compared to, say, England whose elite squad is spread across 3 times as many teams). So the contribution towards wages is needed to allow the regions to buy in some extra players to compensate. If the 80% WRU payment stopped then the regions would revert back to releasing players just in the normal windows and the squads would not need to be as big, which would bring their wage bill down. So it’s not really a ‘gift’ from the WRU, more a payment/compensation for taking them away for so much of the season and leaving bit holes in the squads.

Stopping the extra player access thing (something Gatland wanted) might impact team Wales, but it didn’t seem to make much difference this year having all that extra time in camp! I wonder if a return to the normal international window might be better for the regions as they’d have more internationals on duty more often, more continuity in squads, not having to play as many games depleted against clubs from other nations who are sticking to the release windows, etc. And this might be better for the fans who get to see more stars and fewer games with second string teams being put out.

Possibly could lead to more disparity in wages between internationals and the rest of the squad? Or lower wages for the internationals and then English, French etc swoop? Or fewer squad places for youth with stunts longer term planning? I don't know, just putting the questions there. The last point was certainly raised when the English cap was reduced by I think Sinckler who said the top guys will still get the money, the rest may not.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And hence the underfunding is only in comparison to sides like Leinster then? So presumably any team spending big in the Championship like a Bristol the same issues around money would raise their heads.

Absolutely, there is a salary cap in competent, fair leagues, hence why Leinster walk the league every year recently and should win Europe at a canter,

Don't believe there is a cap in the Championship is there. That may have passed me by but certainly never used to be.

It's not fully pro I don't think

I don't understand your responses there! I don't think the Championship has a salary cap so the league you want to join is not a competent, fair league in your words.

To be clear the championship is mainly semi pro.
And also they wouldn't invite the Welsh teams to join.
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.
But I can't see it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And hence the underfunding is only in comparison to sides like Leinster then? So presumably any team spending big in the Championship like a Bristol the same issues around money would raise their heads.

Absolutely, there is a salary cap in competent, fair leagues, hence why Leinster walk the league every year recently and should win Europe at a canter,

Don't believe there is a cap in the Championship is there. That may have passed me by but certainly never used to be.

It's not fully pro I don't think

I don't understand your responses there! I don't think the Championship has a salary cap so the league you want to join is not a competent, fair league in your words.

It wouldn't be the same format. The RFU's goal is apparently to have a fully professional 2nd tier, all pro clubs with all decent grounds up to spec That would be the competition that the welsh 4 ideally join. Then you can enforce salary caps, which would be a couple of million lower than the premiership. Who knows, maybe there would be fewer clubs in it to begin with and once the English clubs that aren't fully up to speed get professional it can be expanded.

This was written last week:

All the while the RFU works on plans for a hybrid cup competition between Premiership second teams and Championship clubs for the 2023-24 season. If some clubs do not feel they have the squad depth to enter into it, Premiership clubs could combine with Championship teams to enter. It is understood that if it is successful it could replace the Championship entirely, even if the RFU poured cold water on that idea last week.

Source: Guardian

It's not unthinkable to have 4 of those teams replaced with a different 4 across the border.

carpet baboon wrote:
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.

I'd take it. Anything but the dispicable URC that has destroyed pro rugby's soul in Wales.