The Welsh Regions and the URC

by LordDowlais Thu 14 Apr 2022, 12:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me. Very Happy

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

by RugbyFan100 Thu 12 May 2022, 1:25 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:But if it's everything then that includes making it. Especailly as the profit gets reinvested into rugby - I said this to you and more but you ran off without replying.

That's not true is it, in rugby. Because, for example, Munster and Connacht do not make a profit. But they get stadiums built / rennovated for them, and players paid for them.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 1:26 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:But if it's everything then that includes making it. Especailly as the profit gets reinvested into rugby - I said this to you and more but you ran off without replying.

That's not true is it, in rugby. Because, for example, Munster and Connacht do not make a profit. But they get stadiums built / rennovated for them, and players paid for them.

And the Welsh get some players paid for them (80%) by the WRU.

by mikey_dragon Thu 12 May 2022, 1:46 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:But if it's everything then that includes making it. Especailly as the profit gets reinvested into rugby - I said this to you and more but you ran off without replying.

That's not true is it, in rugby. Because, for example, Munster and Connacht do not make a profit. But they get stadiums built / rennovated for them, and players paid for them.

It is true. You're only commenting now as you've found a little bit of information to make it seem like you're right. I'm not wrong.

It seems like you've got a bit of a bee in your bonnet about Irish teams.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 1:49 pm

Jealousy that his team aren't very good and casting envious eyes over to the English thinking it's a financial solution to everything and that it'll be them challenging every year.

by LordDowlais Thu 12 May 2022, 3:04 pm

I very doubt that anything said on this debate revolves around jealousy, making out people are jealous of something is to be blunt, very infantile.

Envious, perhaps, deluded even, but I do not think people are jealous. What I think the emotion here is hopeful. Everybody is hoping that things will improve.

by LordDowlais Thu 12 May 2022, 3:19 pm

Talking about inflated wages in Welsh rugby, I have read an interesting article regarding this subject in the WOL.

Welsh rugby salaries are an elephant in the room and getting them under control is part of the solution
English clubs have not been able to compete with contract offers in Wales this season

Welsh rugby has a myriad of issues right now and they will not be solved by any one thing. There is no silver bullet.

There are a number of factors that contribute to the current plight of the professional game in these parts and they all need to be considered when attempts are made to drag the sport out of the current quagmire of apathy in which it finds itself.

These pages have been filled with the issues staring back at the WRU when the organisation looks in the mirror and how the professional game is currently in a state of paralysis, unable to make the dynamic changes it needs to. But there are further strands that need to be explored.

There is an elephant in the room. In recent weeks sources at the top of the game - both within the regions and outside them - have relayed a common message. Player salaries have spiralled out of control and resulted in a lot of money being wasted in a system that does not have it to spare.

"The agents have had a field day in Wales," claimed one influential source, explaining that wages have ballooned, while another added: "We haven't got to worry about players going to England because they won't get the money they're being offered in Wales."

And it tallies with comments that have been put on record elsewhere. Regarding Vaea Fifita's impending move to the Scarlets, Wasps boss Lee Blackett said earlier this year: "I think when you understand the big picture and you see everything on paper and what he's been offered, I can't blame him. He's got to think about his family and that's the way of the Premiership at the moment, we just couldn't compete with the offer."

Exeter boss Rob Baxter made similar comments regarding Jack Walsh's move to the Ospreys this summer: “Jack Walsh is leaving next season. He came over on an opportunity contract from Australia and has done well for us. He has picked up an improved contract in Wales which will be great for him, a huge opportunity for him.”

Pre-pandemic, Welsh rugby was unable to compete with the financial 'superpowers' in the English and French leagues. So how are we now in a situation where the English clubs are saying they can't compete with Welsh clubs?

To combat the financial implications of the Covid-19 pandemic, the English Premiership has lowered its salary cap to £5 million with some caveats. Clubs are allowed one 'marquee' player to sit outside the cap, they have £600,000 of credit when it comes to homegrown players and £400,000 when it comes to England internationals.

That top line has been squeezed down from £6.4 million. So English clubs are looking to slash their spend on players and reorganise their squads to get under the new cap. It's led to the likes of Fifita and Walsh coming to the Welsh game on deals that their original clubs were no longer able to match.

And the same may well go for the likes of Taulupe Faletau, returning to Welsh rugby and joining Cardiff on a lucrative deal after a six-year stint at Bath. Though it is important to note that the No.8 returns as part of Wayne Pivac's 'Elite 38 Squad' so only 20 percent of his wages will form part of Cardiff's overall spend on squad salaries.

But there is no salary cap in the URC, although the inception of one was championed by Dragons chairman David Buttress earlier this year, so the regions have had little external obligation to get their spending under control.

This is not a slight on the players, who are well within their rights to get themselves as much money as possible for putting their bodies through the rigours of professional rugby, and don't forget that they took significant pay-cuts during the pandemic, but "the game's administrators should have been stronger," WalesOnline was told.

The 60-cap rule, for all the good that it does in terms of enticing players back to Wales, effectively resulted in players naming their price and wages rose. Wage bands were brought in to combat this but its effects have been limited. Gareth Anscombe lost his wage appeal and Jonah Holmes will leave Welsh rugby this year after losing his but such instances are rare.

And Julie Paterson's departure from her role as Operations Director last year has led to Wales boss Pivac taking on more of a role when it comes to the contracts of the Elite 38 players. Understandably, his obligations lie with the Welsh national team and if the salary of a player soars, he won't be the one feeling the pinch.

This is not all about the Test stars, either. The real issue is with the number of middle-tier players earning exorbitant salaries and featuring in the first team all too infrequently.

The regions' current spend on player salaries is expected to be in the region of £5 million for the Dragons, upwards of £6.5 million for Ospreys and Cardiff and around £8 million for the Scarlets. With all the caveats attached to English rugby's salary cap, it is not as simple as saying that three of Wales' four teams are spending more, but they are in that ball park.

It is important to note that this only relates to spend on the playing squad. The regions' financial ability to invest in things like infrastructure, facilities and backroom staff is where the chasm really opens up.

It's also worth noting that this issue cannot be viewed in isolation, without recognising that the league plays a role in this.

URC chief Martin Anayi said recently: "You have got teams there [in Wales] with budgets that are bigger than the budgets in the English Premiership next season, so money shouldn’t necessarily be a reason for failing. I think there is something else that they need to look at there."

But Welsh sides are not in the English league, so the comparison only holds so much water. It is still relevant because English clubs regularly go deeper into Europe than their Welsh counterparts and are generally a cut above when the sides meet. But the real acid test should be made against the likes of URC dominators Leinster.

Dragons chief Buttress estimates that the Irish big-hitters have a playing budget twice as big as their own. Other estimations put it higher than that. That would explain why the Welsh officials have been enticed by splashing more cash in a bid to keep up. Trouble is, there is enough cash being distributed throughout Irish rugby to deal with the spend, in Welsh rugby there is not. A league-wide salary cap would solve this issue from a Welsh perspective but is not easy to implement in a league where the players are paid in different currencies.

Whilst accepting that there are serious issues with the game in Wales that are beyond the regions' control, there must also be an acceptance that they have to get their finances in order, otherwise more money being pumped into the game - even if it was available - will solve nothing.

The good news is that steps seem to have been taken to get things back under control. The Ospreys have limited their recruitment this season and have instead focussed on re-signing existing players to new contracts. Cardiff boss Dai Young has voiced his frustration that players were given extra years on their contract during the Covid-19 pandemic, suggesting that major changes will be coming to his squad next summer.

The general sense is that squad numbers will be reducing in coming years to deal with the pinch that is currently being felt. Moving on players that swallow up more salary spend than they warrant will not solve everything but it will help put Welsh rugby back on track.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-salaries-elephant-room-23919076

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 3:28 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I very doubt that anything said on this debate revolves around jealousy, making out people are jealous of something is to be blunt, very infantile.

Envious, perhaps, deluded even, but I do not think people are jealous. What I think the emotion here is hopeful. Everybody is hoping that things will improve.

Really?

Jealousy: feeling or showing an envious resentment of someone or their achievements, possessions, or perceived advantages.

Envious:a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.

Sometimes I think you just try to make up an argument for no reason when as you say you at least in part agree.

by mikey_dragon Thu 12 May 2022, 3:32 pm

That's the most naf and ill-informed article I've seen from the WOL in a long time, and that's saying something.

by LordDowlais Thu 12 May 2022, 3:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I very doubt that anything said on this debate revolves around jealousy, making out people are jealous of something is to be blunt, very infantile.

Envious, perhaps, deluded even, but I do not think people are jealous. What I think the emotion here is hopeful. Everybody is hoping that things will improve.

Really?

Jealousy: feeling or showing an envious resentment of someone or their achievements, possessions, or perceived advantages.

Envious:a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.

Sometimes I think you just try to make up an argument for no reason when as you say you at least in part agree.

Now you have established the difference between jealousy and envy, you can put your infantile comment behind you. I am not looking for an argument, so please do not push for one.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 3:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I very doubt that anything said on this debate revolves around jealousy, making out people are jealous of something is to be blunt, very infantile.

Envious, perhaps, deluded even, but I do not think people are jealous. What I think the emotion here is hopeful. Everybody is hoping that things will improve.

Really?

Jealousy: feeling or showing an envious resentment of someone or their achievements, possessions, or perceived advantages.

Envious:a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.

Sometimes I think you just try to make up an argument for no reason when as you say you at least in part agree.

Now you have established the difference between jealousy and envy, you can put your infantile comment behind you. I am not looking for an argument, so please do not push for one.

Erm, so we now agree that he does at least in part show jealousy towards the big spenders then? You can retract calling me childish? Or more likely you'll try to side step your needless comments until a mod arrives with a red pen?

by formerly known as Sam Thu 12 May 2022, 3:59 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:

Doesn't answer the question of where's the coaching pathway. Where's the adding value to the squads? If you don't believe me look at Gloucester last season and compare to this, Skivington has turned them around and it hasn't been overnight but they're a different team now. Same with Borthwick at Tigers. Where's the young Welsh coaches coming through to rejuvenate the regions?

Why does it matter where a coach is from? I don't give a monkeys who coaches my team as long as they are good and have a proven track record of quality.

You quote Glocuester and Leicester as having a good coaching setup, but they chose the same model as Bath didn't they? Young up and coming ex England players - i.e. - punts. And Bath have now chosen to go against that model because it hasn't worked out, so they've employed a South African presumably on big money.

Everything boils down to money. Absolutely everything.

It doesn't. If it did Bath wouldn't be bottom. Money does help but selecting the right backroom team does go a long way towards helping as well. Given the lack of invention being shown by the likes of Ospreys and Dragons on the pitch the question was really why are they persisting with DORs that aren't delivering and not giving chances to up and coming coaches. Where's the up and coming coaches?

Hooper at Bath isn't and up and coming coach and never has been. He's been consistently promoted beyond his level over several years. His failure was evident before the season started to most people outside of Bath. Borthwick had a stellar reputation as an international assistant coach but Skivington was a bit of a left field selection that has ended up working out well so far.

by Jimmy Moz Thu 12 May 2022, 4:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jealousy: feeling or showing an envious resentment of someone or their achievements, possessions, or perceived advantages

How I feel when I seen the man who is going out with the woman I fancy loads

No 7&1/2 wrote:Envious:a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck

How I feel when I look at English Rugby Premiership supporters when I watch it on BT Sport

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:04 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Jealousy: feeling or showing an envious resentment of someone or their achievements, possessions, or perceived advantages
How I feel when I seen the man who is going out with the woman I fancy loads

No 7&1/2 wrote:Envious:a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck
How I feel when I look at English Rugby Premiership supporters when I watch it on BT Sport

I mean they're synonyms so you can use either for either. Given the definition of one includes the other also is a bit of a clue. You can envy a man for his girlfriend. Funny old world.

by LordDowlais Thu 12 May 2022, 4:05 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Jealousy: feeling or showing an envious resentment of someone or their achievements, possessions, or perceived advantages
How I feel when I seen the man who is going out with the woman I fancy loads

No 7&1/2 wrote:Envious:a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck
How I feel when I look at English Rugby Premiership supporters when I watch it on BT Sport

Thanks for explaining it to him for me Jim. thumbsup

by Jimmy Moz Thu 12 May 2022, 4:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can envy a man for his girlfriend

Yes but envy would mean I am happy for him but also wish she was my girlfriend aswell. I am not happy for him, I want him out of her life and want her all to myself. So it is a lot different.

by Jimmy Moz Thu 12 May 2022, 4:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Thanks for explaining it to him for me Jim.

No worries. I tried my best anyway fella

by RugbyFan100 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I do not think people are jealous.

Infact, I'm extremely jealous of anybody who supports a team in a competent league with an ability to be in control of their own destiny / revenue / decision making.

by LordDowlais Thu 12 May 2022, 4:20 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You can envy a man for his girlfriend
Yes but envy would mean I am happy for him but also wish she was my girlfriend aswell. I am not happy for him, I want him out of her life and want her all to myself. So it is a lot different.

I do not think Rugbyfan100 is jealous of what the English have got and wants it all for himself. But he is envious to the point he one day hopes his team can be in the same place as them.

In a way he is complimenting the English league and their system, he thinks they are doing it right. That is not jealousy.

by RugbyFan100 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:22 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Money does help but selecting the right backroom team does go a long way towards helping as well.

OK. For my team I'd like a coaching ticket of Scott Robertson, Felipe Contempomi, Stuart Lancaster and John Plumtree. If money isn't the be all and end all in getting them to coach my team, I'm sure we can work on a few little factors that will bring them in.

by RugbyFan100 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Jimmy Moz wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You can envy a man for his girlfriend
Yes but envy would mean I am happy for him but also wish she was my girlfriend aswell. I am not happy for him, I want him out of her life and want her all to myself. So it is a lot different.

I do not think Rugbyfan100 is jealous of what the English have got and wants it all for himself. But he is envious to the point he one day hopes his team can be in the same place as them.

In a way he is complimenting the English league and their system, he thinks they are doing it right. That is not jealousy.

No, I am very jealous.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:24 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You can envy a man for his girlfriend
Yes but envy would mean I am happy for him but also wish she was my girlfriend aswell. I am not happy for him, I want him out of her life and want her all to myself. So it is a lot different.

Envy means resentful longing. As above. So no you're wrong. As was LD. They're synonyms of each other.

by Jimmy Moz Thu 12 May 2022, 4:25 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:No, I am very jealous

I don't blame you. The English Premiership is amazing. Welsh rugby will only see those dizzy heights again if they joined it.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:27 pm

They'll never see it then. As Moffett says.

by RugbyFan100 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:27 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:No, I am very jealous
I don't blame you. The English Premiership is amazing. Welsh rugby will only see those dizzy heights again if they joined it.

Spot on. They don't need the big European budgets of Leinster and Toulouse. They have their own ecosystem that they operate a perfect league in. Very jealous of it.

by **RiscaGame** Thu 12 May 2022, 4:28 pm

Chris Kirwan wrote:THE Dragons' future appears to be safe after a commitment by Welsh rugby chiefs to ensure "all four regions" play key roles in the professional game.

The Professional Rugby Board, which features representatives from the Dragons, Cardiff, Ospreys, Llanelli and the Welsh Rugby Union, met on Wednesday to discuss a report by consultants Oakwell Sports Advisory.

One of the ideas floated was to cut one of the pro quartet from the 2023/24 season but a four-team approach is set to stay after an update from the PRB.

“The Professional Rugby Board met on Wednesday to continue discussions to further develop its strategy for a sustainable and ultimately successful professional game in Wales,” read a statement.

“The PRB is committed to working together to ensure all four regions continue to play important roles in the professional game.

“We will meet further over the coming weeks to ensure the strategy protects and grows our game and remain committed to communicating further progress to all as soon as appropriate.”

Dragons chairman David Buttress, who is the region’s representative on the PRB, will meet with fans before tomorrow’s derby against Cardiff to provide an update.

A short Q&A will take place at 5.45pm in Rodney’s Bar with supporters who have valid match tickets able to enter through gate seven from 5.30pm

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:29 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Jimmy Moz wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:No, I am very jealous
I don't blame you. The English Premiership is amazing. Welsh rugby will only see those dizzy heights again if they joined it.

Spot on. They don't need the big European budgets of Leinster and Toulouse. They have their own ecosystem that they operate a perfect league in. Very jealous of it.

That some don't want of course. Grass is always greener and all that.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:31 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
Chris Kirwan wrote:THE Dragons' future appears to be safe after a commitment by Welsh rugby chiefs to ensure "all four regions" play key roles in the professional game.

The Professional Rugby Board, which features representatives from the Dragons, Cardiff, Ospreys, Llanelli and the Welsh Rugby Union, met on Wednesday to discuss a report by consultants Oakwell Sports Advisory.

One of the ideas floated was to cut one of the pro quartet from the 2023/24 season but a four-team approach is set to stay after an update from the PRB.

“The Professional Rugby Board met on Wednesday to continue discussions to further develop its strategy for a sustainable and ultimately successful professional game in Wales,” read a statement.

“The PRB is committed to working together to ensure all four regions continue to play important roles in the professional game.

“We will meet further over the coming weeks to ensure the strategy protects and grows our game and remain committed to communicating further progress to all as soon as appropriate.”

Dragons chairman David Buttress, who is the region’s representative on the PRB, will meet with fans before tomorrow’s derby against Cardiff to provide an update.

A short Q&A will take place at 5.45pm in Rodney’s Bar with supporters who have valid match tickets able to enter through gate seven from 5.30pm

Does that come across as a good PR answer to you? Doesn't mean there will continue to be 4 teams in the URC or that they are all supported by the WRU does it?

by **RiscaGame** Thu 12 May 2022, 4:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Does that come across as a good PR answer to you? Doesn't mean there will continue to be 4 teams in the URC or that they are all supported by the WRU does it?

I just read on WOL, that the WRU could overrule the PRB's recommendations anyway. Mad.

I would always err on the side of caution when it comes to support from the WRU anyway laughing

by Guest Thu 12 May 2022, 4:38 pm

I think the key thing from that is that it sounds like there will be 4 teams, but ‘roles’ is an interesting word so perhaps some will be funded differently to others and might get the role of ‘development’ region perhaps?

by **RiscaGame** Thu 12 May 2022, 4:39 pm

The Oracle wrote:I think the key thing from that is that it sounds like there will be 4 teams, but ‘roles’ is an interesting word so perhaps some will be funded differently to others and might get the role of ‘development’ region perhaps?

Agreed. I am not sure I can be bothered with listening to what Buttress is going to say tomorrow, but that is something that needs to be asked of him.

by RugbyFan100 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:40 pm

The Oracle wrote:‘development’ region

"Who you playing today? A development team."

That'll get the punters in and the broadcast £££££££££ sky high. No private business would agree to downgrade their services to developmental level.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 May 2022, 4:48 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:‘development’ region

"Who you playing today? A development team."

That'll get the punters in and the broadcast £££££££££ sky high. No private business would agree to downgrade their services to developmental level.

We're going to stop funding 80 per cent of x y and z players and remove you from the league or you can play under a development remit.

There are ways and means to get what you want.

by Guest Thu 12 May 2022, 9:01 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:‘development’ region

"Who you playing today? A development team."

That'll get the punters in and the broadcast £££££££££ sky high. No private business would agree to downgrade their services to developmental level.

Do Dragons have much of a say? As the WRU majority own them could they downgrade the Dragons, theoretically?

by mikey_dragon Thu 12 May 2022, 9:40 pm

Sam just to address your query, there aren’t many up and coming Welsh coaches. In the past we pushed forward the likes of Lyn Jones, Nigel Davies, and the infamous duo Burnell and Baber; none of them got the best out of their teams really, and others were just awful.

The up and coming now would be Peel, he probably should have stayed with his original commitment and been backs coach at Cardiff. Danny Wilson was a good coach and did the best with what he had, now at Glasgow. Tandy formerly of the Ospreys, now defence coach with Scotland. Jason Strange seems to have disappeared, he was up and coming.

This doesn’t really compare with the coaches NZ has. England also have good coaches, a lot of them good players in the past.

by **RiscaGame** Thu 12 May 2022, 11:06 pm

Strange is at Ebbw.

by Jimmy Moz Fri 13 May 2022, 10:23 am

So excuse my ignorance. Is there an announcement today or due any time soon on the proceedings?

by Guest Fri 13 May 2022, 11:26 am

I think they met on Weds and some of the statement from the meeting is quoted above by Risca. Whether there is more to announce, I do not know. That said it was a PRB meeting so I do not know whether the WRU were there, and I guess they will ultimately decide where their bit of the funding goes.

Edit: sorry, ignore that last bit. The PRB has the WRU CEO and chief finance dude on the panel so they were in attendance, and so the statement earlier in the thread would appear to be from the regions AND the WRU.

by RugbyFan100 Fri 13 May 2022, 11:32 am

The Oracle wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:‘development’ region

"Who you playing today? A development team."

That'll get the punters in and the broadcast £££££££££ sky high. No private business would agree to downgrade their services to developmental level.

Do Dragons have much of a say? As the WRU majority own them could they downgrade the Dragons, theoretically?

Yes they could. That's why I said private business.

If they turned the Dragons into a development team, then I would expect the broadcasters to pay less $$$ to show the competition. A truly awful idea.

by Jimmy Moz Fri 13 May 2022, 11:53 am

I don't really see the point in having a development side. Who would want to pay (probably the same amount of entrance fee as the other 3 clubs) to watch a team that is basically not even there to win or be succesful?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 13 May 2022, 11:57 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:‘development’ region

"Who you playing today? A development team."

That'll get the punters in and the broadcast £££££££££ sky high. No private business would agree to downgrade their services to developmental level.

Do Dragons have much of a say? As the WRU majority own them could they downgrade the Dragons, theoretically?

Yes they could. That's why I said private business.

If they turned the Dragons into a development team, then I would expect the broadcasters to pay less $$$ to show the competition. A truly awful idea.

Interesting point. Would it really devalue the competition in the eyes of media companies and why if so? I suppose in part it would depend on the purpose and structure of that team. If it were defined as x of the squad needed to be below the age of 25 for instance why would it be a big deal for tv?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 13 May 2022, 11:57 am

Jimmy Moz wrote:I don't really see the point in having a development side. Who would want to pay (probably the same amount of entrance fee as the other 3 clubs) to watch a team that is basically not even there to win or be succesful?

Entertainment?

by Jimmy Moz Fri 13 May 2022, 12:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Jimmy Moz wrote:I don't really see the point in having a development side. Who would want to pay (probably the same amount of entrance fee as the other 3 clubs) to watch a team that is basically not even there to win or be succesful?

Entertainment?

I guess. I am just speculating what the crowds would be like when there is a fully fledged team full of stars 11 miles away.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 13 May 2022, 1:06 pm

Would it matter. People will turn up or stay away for a variety of reasons. Depends what the product is like along with locality price etc etc

by Jimmy Moz Fri 13 May 2022, 1:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would it matter

Maybe. Maybe not. But given that this thread and the whole Welsh rugby saga at the moment is about 'sustainabilty' then it's something worth discussing.

by Guest Fri 13 May 2022, 2:08 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:‘development’ region

"Who you playing today? A development team."

That'll get the punters in and the broadcast £££££££££ sky high. No private business would agree to downgrade their services to developmental level.

Do Dragons have much of a say? As the WRU majority own them could they downgrade the Dragons, theoretically?

Yes they could. That's why I said private business.

If they turned the Dragons into a development team, then I would expect the broadcasters to pay less $$$ to show the competition. A truly awful idea.

Not my idea. Just one that's continually mooted whenever the regions are discussed. The options coming out from the WRU and pundits, hanging over the regions like the sword of Damocles, always appear to be (in no particular order):

A) Scrap one
B) Merge two
C) turn one or two into development regions with less funding

I don't agree with it. For me they're ALL technically development regions in that players come through from the academy, or from club sides, or from outside at a young age, hell even some of the more mature signings, and they're all 'developed' by dint of them being coached and playing with other pros. I agree that a team that is just choc full of kids is not going to be very palatable and I can imaging the league and cup organisers taking a bit of a dim view of it. Plus, if teams like Dragons can hardly win with a lot of decent pros (and some that are not so good admittedly) then how will a group of inexperienced youngsters fare? Probably get thumped each week. Is that really good for their development? If it was such a good idea then why have no other nations (as far as I know) done it?

You listen to interviews with lots of Wales' top players over the years and they all seem to say that some of the best things they learned was from the top pros they played with. Players they used to idolise and then all of a sudden they're on the same team as them. I think it was Tipuric who said in an interview a couple of years back that it was being around the likes of Jerry Collins, Marty Holah and Filo TiaTia that really brought his game on. So a team full of developing, inexperienced players getting mauled each week by seasoned pros, coming up against massive French packs in the 2nd Euro cup, getting dismantled..... some will say its a good learning curve. I think they'll learn best in a team surrounded by seasoned pros and current internationals. They'll also have to up their game to break through and dislodge the stars, compared to being in a development team, so an incentive to work harder, etc.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 13 May 2022, 2:13 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Would it matter
Maybe. Maybe not. But given that this thread and the whole Welsh rugby saga at the moment is about 'sustainabilty' then it's something worth discussing.

Not too sure what the gate receipts and food etc stack up to vs wru funding and TV etc but in football attendance comes way down the list for income.

by RugbyFan100 Fri 13 May 2022, 2:50 pm

People on this thread like to beat the Welsh attendances at the regions with a stick. A development region is not going to get the crowds in. It is not going to improve any competitions it is in. It is not going to be one of the 3 independent regions that gets demoted to a development team.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 13 May 2022, 3:19 pm

Could be any of them if they think none of them are working.

by Jimmy Moz Fri 13 May 2022, 4:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could be any of them if they think none of them are working.

Who would you choose if they gave you the choice? Don't say none of them. Pretend it's a gun to head situation.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 13 May 2022, 4:36 pm

Think it was Oracle that ran through some plusses and minuses a page or so ago. Depends what the driver of the decision is. Seems to me one of the primary ones would be cost saving so the most expensive. Would that be Ospreys?

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