The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it was Oracle that ran through some plusses and minuses a page or so ago. Depends what the driver of the decision is. Seems to me one of the primary ones would be cost saving so the most expensive. Would that be Ospreys?

No stadium of their own. And from what I been told it's pretty flat there at the best of times for an Os game.

The Scarlets are the most expensive from a WRU point of view. They're the most expensive because they produce the most Wales players, so the Scarlets have to be paid compensation for release and reimbursed for eilte squad membership. So the region of Wales that produces the most test players would be closed down because of that very reason?

Odd way to look at it

RugbyFan100 wrote:The Scarlets are the most expensive from a WRU point of view. They're the most expensive because they produce the most Wales players, so the Scarlets have to be paid compensation for release and reimbursed for eilte squad membership. So the region of Wales that produces the most test players would be closed down because of that very reason?

Odd way to look at it

They'd also be paying 80 per cent of their wages then. If its cost saving go for that. Get the others bar the development team paying for their own players. Huge chunk of money saved which can then go on better coaches for whichever development team.

RiscaGame wrote:Strange is at Ebbw.

This just doesn’t sound right when you say it out loud…

He was up and coming at one point, I know the U20s were good with him and then they regressed. It seems he took a demotion then and that’s that.

Think he’s probably happy enough, along with the work he is (I believe still) doing with St Helens RL.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The Scarlets are the most expensive from a WRU point of view. They're the most expensive because they produce the most Wales players, so the Scarlets have to be paid compensation for release and reimbursed for eilte squad membership. So the region of Wales that produces the most test players would be closed down because of that very reason?

Odd way to look at it

They'd also be paying 80 per cent of their wages then. If its cost saving go for that. Get the others bar the development team paying for their own players. Huge chunk of money saved which can then go on better coaches for whichever development team.

The NS38 payments form the compensation for services provided. Shutting down a team doesn't automatically change the payment method, but Oakwell does suggest changing the payment method as they note it is crazy that .£13.4m of the compensation payments are controlled by (in essence) Pivac.

RiscaGame wrote:Think he’s probably happy enough, along with the work he is (I believe still) doing with St Helens RL.

He is

RugbyFan100 wrote:The Scarlets are the most expensive from a WRU point of view. They're the most expensive because they produce the most Wales players, so the Scarlets have to be paid compensation for release and reimbursed for eilte squad membership. So the region of Wales that produces the most test players would be closed down because of that very reason?

Odd way to look at it

The Dragons were the biggest cost to the WRU in the last financial year, costing over £3m more than the payments to the Scarlets.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:But if it's everything then that includes making it. Especailly as the profit gets reinvested into rugby - I said this to you and more but you ran off without replying.

That's not true is it, in rugby. Because, for example, Munster and Connacht do not make a profit. But they get stadiums built / rennovated for them, and players paid for them.

And the Welsh get some players paid for them (80%) by the WRU.

I see you're still making this mistake.

The payment to the professional game from the WRU is c.£8m a year less than the IRFU's investment into its professional game.

LordDowlais wrote:Talking about inflated wages in Welsh rugby, I have read an interesting article regarding this subject in the WOL.

Oakwell noted that average salaries in Wales is lower than it is in Scotland and significantly lower than in Munster and Leinster (especially).

It also noted that average salaries were only £2k more than those in the GP, despite the concentration of internationals into 4 teams rather than 13. It noted that c.40% of Welsh salary bills are spent on players (NS38) who play only c.32% of their employer's games.

(note - for the record: the NS38 players are paid 100% by their clubs.)

RiscaGame wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Does that come across as a good PR answer to you? Doesn't mean there will continue to be 4 teams in the URC or that they are all supported by the WRU does it?

I just read on WOL, that the WRU could overrule the PRB's recommendations anyway. Mad.

I would always err on the side of caution when it comes to support from the WRU anyway

PRB is just a talking shop. It holds no power.

mikey_dragon wrote:Sam just to address your query, there aren’t many up and coming Welsh coaches. In the past we pushed forward the likes of Lyn Jones, Nigel Davies, and the infamous duo Burnell and Baber; none of them got the best out of their teams really, and others were just awful.

The up and coming now would be Peel, he probably should have stayed with his original commitment and been backs coach at Cardiff. Danny Wilson was a good coach and did the best with what he had, now at Glasgow. Tandy formerly of the Ospreys, now defence coach with Scotland. Jason Strange seems to have disappeared, he was up and coming.

This doesn’t really compare with the coaches NZ has. England also have good coaches, a lot of them good players in the past.

Small point - Danny Wilson isn't Welsh.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would it matter

Maybe. Maybe not. But given that this thread and the whole Welsh rugby saga at the moment is about 'sustainabilty' then it's something worth discussing.

Not too sure what the gate receipts and food etc stack up to vs wru funding and TV etc but in football attendance comes way down the list for income.

There's no funding. It's a payment. I appreciate you do this for effect, which means it's always worth correcting.

Oakwell noted the following for 2019 turnover:

Cardiff - 38% WRU payments
Ospreys - 46%
Scarlets - 47%
The Dragons figure of 36% is skewed by their costs being 107% of turnover, meaning the WRU covers the full cost (including trading losses) of the business.

So the percentage figures above constitute the NS38 & other payments.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would it matter

Maybe. Maybe not. But given that this thread and the whole Welsh rugby saga at the moment is about 'sustainabilty' then it's something worth discussing.

Not too sure what the gate receipts and food etc stack up to vs wru funding and TV etc but in football attendance comes way down the list for income.

There's no funding. It's a payment. I appreciate you do this for effect, which means it's always worth correcting.

Oakwell noted the following for 2019 turnover:

Cardiff - 38% WRU payments
Ospreys - 46%
Scarlets - 47%
The Dragons figure of 36% is skewed by their costs being 107% of turnover, meaning the WRU covers the full cost (including trading losses) of the business.

So the percentage figures above constitute the NS38 & other payments.

Yeah the wru pay 80 per cent of those select players wages. Without it they would be outbid by rivals.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would it matter

Maybe. Maybe not. But given that this thread and the whole Welsh rugby saga at the moment is about 'sustainabilty' then it's something worth discussing.

Not too sure what the gate receipts and food etc stack up to vs wru funding and TV etc but in football attendance comes way down the list for income.

There's no funding. It's a payment. I appreciate you do this for effect, which means it's always worth correcting.

Oakwell noted the following for 2019 turnover:

Cardiff - 38% WRU payments
Ospreys - 46%
Scarlets - 47%
The Dragons figure of 36% is skewed by their costs being 107% of turnover, meaning the WRU covers the full cost (including trading losses) of the business.

So the percentage figures above constitute the NS38 & other payments.

Yeah the wru pay 80 per cent of those select players wages. Without it they would be outbid by rivals.

Nope. That's untrue. Verifiably untrue.

But you're too deep into this now so you'll just try to save face.

No need to. If you're not aware that the WRU gives all the money and you want to ignore that reliance so be it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No need to. If you're not aware that the WRU gives all the money and you want to ignore that reliance so be it.

That's a really weird thing to write when I've just presented you with turnover figures.

Does the RFU give £20m+ a year to PRL? Your answer will dictate whether you understand the words you type.

To underline the error in thinking the "WRU pays 80% of the salaries", the WRU annual report shows a payment to the regions in 20/21 of £6.5m external to the group. (reference page 75)

Oakwell note that 2019 saw £13.4m of payments to all four (so slightly different) linked to the NS38 (reference page 19)

The facts are there in black and white.

Page 75 also references how £6.1m was earned in competition income whilst £6.5m was paid by the WRU, to further answer the question about self generated income

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No need to. If you're not aware that the WRU gives all the money and you want to ignore that reliance so be it.

That's a really weird thing to write when I've just presented you with turnover figures.

Does the RFU give £20m+ a year to PRL? Your answer will dictate whether you understand the words you type.

It does. The new deal which comes into force at the end of next season will see the amount rise to £28m a season though that will be for 13 teams so £2.15ish million per club. It's currently lower than that.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No need to. If you're not aware that the WRU gives all the money and you want to ignore that reliance so be it.

That's a really weird thing to write when I've just presented you with turnover figures.

Does the RFU give £20m+ a year to PRL? Your answer will dictate whether you understand the words you type.

It does. The new deal which comes into force at the end of next season will see the amount rise to £28m a season though that will be for 13 teams so £2.15ish million per club. It's currently lower than that.

Nope. It doesn't give them that. It pays them that. It's not a gift.

PhilBB wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No need to. If you're not aware that the WRU gives all the money and you want to ignore that reliance so be it.

That's a really weird thing to write when I've just presented you with turnover figures.

Does the RFU give £20m+ a year to PRL? Your answer will dictate whether you understand the words you type.

It does. The new deal which comes into force at the end of next season will see the amount rise to £28m a season though that will be for 13 teams so £2.15ish million per club. It's currently lower than that.

Nope. It doesn't give them that. It pays them that. It's not a gift.

It gives them that in exchange for access to their employees outside of international windows.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No need to. If you're not aware that the WRU gives all the money and you want to ignore that reliance so be it.

That's a really weird thing to write when I've just presented you with turnover figures.

Does the RFU give £20m+ a year to PRL? Your answer will dictate whether you understand the words you type.

It does. The new deal which comes into force at the end of next season will see the amount rise to £28m a season though that will be for 13 teams so £2.15ish million per club. It's currently lower than that.

Nope. It doesn't give them that. It pays them that. It's not a gift.

It gives them that in exchange for access to their employees outside of international windows.

And more.....just as the WRU does.

So now we're all agreed that the WRU pay for 80% of the selected layers wages back to the thread.

PhilBB wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No need to. If you're not aware that the WRU gives all the money and you want to ignore that reliance so be it.

That's a really weird thing to write when I've just presented you with turnover figures.

Does the RFU give £20m+ a year to PRL? Your answer will dictate whether you understand the words you type.

It does. The new deal which comes into force at the end of next season will see the amount rise to £28m a season though that will be for 13 teams so £2.15ish million per club. It's currently lower than that.

Nope. It doesn't give them that. It pays them that. It's not a gift.

It gives them that in exchange for access to their employees outside of international windows.

And more.....just as the WRU does.

Never said it wasn't a similar system. The methods and amount per organisation might vary but it's pretty much the same model you'll see everywhere in one form or another.

My only gripe with the Welsh system (mainly a selfish one) is the pressure they put on new caps playing elsewhere (and developed elsewhere) to come to Wales and a failing region. As a Tigers fan a real shame seeing Holmes and Costelow's development stall or reduce to a snails pace after heading back to Wales after WRU promises. Pivac and the WRU are now targeting Reffell as well, I hope he doesn't fall for it and signs a nice long contract before his first cap ala Rees-Zammit or Francis.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So now we're all agreed that the WRU pay for 80% of the selected layers wages back to the thread.

It doesn't, in any way shape or demonstrable form.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Never said it wasn't a similar system. The methods and amount per organisation might vary but it's pretty much the same model you'll see everywhere in one form or another.

My only gripe with the Welsh system (mainly a selfish one) is the pressure they put on new caps playing elsewhere (and developed elsewhere) to come to Wales and a failing region. As a Tigers fan a real shame seeing Holmes and Costelow's development stall or reduce to a snails pace after heading back to Wales after WRU promises. Pivac and the WRU are now targeting Reffell as well, I hope he doesn't fall for it and signs a nice long contract before his first cap ala Rees-Zammit or Francis.

You didn't, no, but the resident Dishonest from Doncaster consistently does.

I'd flip your comment on Holmes and Costelow. It was interesting to see that Holmes wasn't actually that good a player when he played in Wales and Costelow's performances have improved significantly over the season.

Refell will be interesting. He's another who "looks good because he plays in England" as we've seen with Tom Young and others. It would be interesting - but, of course impossible - to see how Botham, Morgan, Jenkins et al would look playing off the Leicester pack.

Plus, of course, the RFU picks players only playing in England so it's a bit rich to moan if the WRU has a similar policy.

Ah Phil. Don't slip into your angry feet stomping twitter style.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah Phil. Don't slip into your angry feet stomping twitter style.

Just calling it for what it is.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No need to. If you're not aware that the WRU gives all the money and you want to ignore that reliance so be it.

That's a really weird thing to write when I've just presented you with turnover figures.

Does the RFU give £20m+ a year to PRL? Your answer will dictate whether you understand the words you type.

So no answer to this question.

Right you are Phil. The Welsh clubs don't get any WRU money then.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Right you are Phil. The Welsh clubs don't get any WRU money then.

And that's the next part of the play book of "Write Garbage Just to Get A Rise"

Why be so dishonest? I mean, sure, I've embarrassed you for your take on the basics here but all you have to do is write "the payments are exactly the same as the RFU make for services provided" and we're all good. Just write the truth.

There's no aim for a rise at you. You get so fret up all the time. You always respond with dismissals and name calling. Twitter is made for you and you enjoy that style there. I'm not really up for that sort of thing here. We've discussed the RFU payments made to the clubs before and how the clubs qualify for those payments can be round on the website. Look them up but no its not the same as the WRU contributing the 80 per cent to wages. Its not really got anything to do with this thread either. If you want to side track to that create another thread.

No 7&1/2 wrote:no its not the same as the WRU contributing the 80 per cent to wages.

How did the WRU 'contribute the 80 per cent to wages' in the financial year when they paid out only £6m?

The answer to that question is why you know you are wrong on this.

For clarity, the RFU attach fewer strings to their payments to PRL than the WRU does to its payments to the Welsh clubs. One of the strings attached to the Welsh is that part of the payment has to go towards employing NS38 players.

If none of the four employ an NS38 player, that part of the payment doesn't get made.

The WRU don't pay wages or 'contribute towards them' as you made out.

Nobody is fret, so don't try page 3 of the "look, look, I'm innocent" play book. We've all been around message boards too long to fall for that.

And that's the end of it.

Let the thread be back on track.

Yay.

The Oracle wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Not sure how cutting a team helps that? Fewer squad places overall, less room in the teams to blood players, more time on the bench for fringe players, fewer academy places, less money (or perhaps the same as now) for the pro teams.

On BBC Wales News last night Moffett said the Dragons had journeymen in the team/squad. I assume he thinks that the WRU cutting down to 3 teams would avoid these players being in the Pro Welsh system.

Which journeymen are they?  They're mostly young.

Allen, Baker, Bateman, Doge, Lewis Jones, Lewis, Seiuli <- at a guess

mikey_dragon wrote:There’s a few journey men at all the regions, which Moffett and Jimmy already knew. Move them on and bring it better players who are WQ (playing in England), or NWQ. This won’t be achieved if you’re plan is to axe one region and then reduce the funding in a few years time. It makes absolutely no sense, so much so that it shouldn’t be up for debate.

I think you've misunderstood the point of all of this.

Oakwell's report recommended cutting a team because there was a forecasted reduction in WRU income, so cutting a team overcame the drop in income, meaning the remaining three could become more competitive.

Oakdene wrote:The only way three works is if the players who aren't in the matchday 23 turn out for the premiership sides that are local to the region.

No, that's where the Academy players need to play (unfortunately). Seasoned pros won't benefit from playing at such a low level.

Oakdene wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Oakdene wrote:The only way three works is if the players who aren't in the matchday 23 turn out for the premiership sides that are local to the region.

I don't understand why it would only work if they farmed out players to the semi pros?

Sorry I may have been a bit flippant with the use of the only but what I meant to say was the players who aren't getting regular game time need to be playing for the local sides so that they are keeping match fit & also don't become fed up with life as a pro rugby player in Wales.

History shows they'll get more fed up if asked to play at that level!

PhilBB wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Not sure how cutting a team helps that? Fewer squad places overall, less room in the teams to blood players, more time on the bench for fringe players, fewer academy places, less money (or perhaps the same as now) for the pro teams.

On BBC Wales News last night Moffett said the Dragons had journeymen in the team/squad. I assume he thinks that the WRU cutting down to 3 teams would avoid these players being in the Pro Welsh system.

Which journeymen are they?  They're mostly young.

Allen, Baker, Bateman, Doge, Lewis Jones, Lewis, Seiuli <- at a guess

I always see ‘journeymen’ as players that have been around the houses, lots of clubs, moving on every couple of years. A few in that list I’m not sure qualify. Someone like Dan Baker, Dragons is only his 2nd pro club and he’s only 29. Same for Doge really. Lewis Jones? Only played for Cardiff didn’t he? Bateman seems to fit that label though. Seiuli has had a few clubs too.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Sam just to address your query, there aren’t many up and coming Welsh coaches. In the past we pushed forward the likes of Lyn Jones, Nigel Davies, and the infamous duo Burnell and Baber; none of them got the best out of their teams really, and others were just awful.

The up and coming now would be Peel, he probably should have stayed with his original commitment and been backs coach at Cardiff. Danny Wilson was a good coach and did the best with what he had, now at Glasgow. Tandy formerly of the Ospreys, now defence coach with Scotland. Jason Strange seems to have disappeared, he was up and coming.

This doesn’t really compare with the coaches NZ has. England also have good coaches, a lot of them good players in the past.

Small point - Danny Wilson isn't Welsh.

I'm aware of that. I thought he had nailed his colours to the mast with us though, when he married a local. An important chunk of his coaching was done with us too, via the Wales U20s, Dragons and then at Cardiff. That's sort of what I was getting at.

The Oracle wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Not sure how cutting a team helps that? Fewer squad places overall, less room in the teams to blood players, more time on the bench for fringe players, fewer academy places, less money (or perhaps the same as now) for the pro teams.

On BBC Wales News last night Moffett said the Dragons had journeymen in the team/squad. I assume he thinks that the WRU cutting down to 3 teams would avoid these players being in the Pro Welsh system.

Which journeymen are they?  They're mostly young.

Allen, Baker, Bateman, Doge, Lewis Jones, Lewis, Seiuli <- at a guess

I always see ‘journeymen’ as players that have been around the houses, lots of clubs, moving on every couple of years. A few in that list I’m not sure qualify. Someone like Dan Baker, Dragons is only his 2nd pro club and he’s only 29. Same for Doge really. Lewis Jones? Only played for Cardiff didn’t he? Bateman seems to fit that label though. Seiuli has had a few clubs too.

Such a negative term too. Batement hasn't lived up to expectation but there was no way we could know that. Lewis Jones isn't wanted or needed here. Allen? I don't remember him playing for us and again, not wanted or needed. The rest are good players.

Is Baker injured? Haven't seen him in a while.

The Oracle wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Not sure how cutting a team helps that? Fewer squad places overall, less room in the teams to blood players, more time on the bench for fringe players, fewer academy places, less money (or perhaps the same as now) for the pro teams.

On BBC Wales News last night Moffett said the Dragons had journeymen in the team/squad. I assume he thinks that the WRU cutting down to 3 teams would avoid these players being in the Pro Welsh system.

Which journeymen are they?  They're mostly young.

Allen, Baker, Bateman, Doge, Lewis Jones, Lewis, Seiuli <- at a guess

I always see ‘journeymen’ as players that have been around the houses, lots of clubs, moving on every couple of years. A few in that list I’m not sure qualify. Someone like Dan Baker, Dragons is only his 2nd pro club and he’s only 29. Same for Doge really. Lewis Jones? Only played for Cardiff didn’t he? Bateman seems to fit that label though. Seiuli has had a few clubs too.

It's Baker's third pro club. And Doge's third pro club.

Journeymen means different things to different people, I guess.

mikey_dragon wrote:

I'm aware of that. I thought he had nailed his colours to the mast with us though, when he married a local. An important chunk of his coaching was done with us too, via the Wales U20s, Dragons and then at Cardiff. That's sort of what I was getting at.

Fair points. An adopted Welshman, indeed.

from AW Jones on a recent podcast (and lifted from Walesonline):

"I don't think the to-ing and fro-ing about whether we're going to have three or four regions and all those sort of political and... this recent one now about talking to go to three regions, it reeks of sorting out a balance sheet rather than improving the game.

"I think if they got rid of one, those three teams are probably going to have the same amount of money, those three teams wouldn't have the extra funding from the fourth that's gone.

"Definitely, the appetite [for rugby] is there. I think the fans need more from a performance point of view but off the field as well."


And Piva: '“It depends on how you rate the player pool and how many players you think are capable of playing international rugby. Are we paying players that aren’t really at that level? So there’s a lot of factors to take into account.

“You could also say that if you reduce the number of teams, like Scotland, you might have a couple of competitive teams. There’s an argument both ways, I think.”

He added: “The big thing for us, if you look at the teams that have been dominant in the club scene, your Saracens, your Crusaders, your Leinsters, and you look at their national teams and they are all aligned, so I think it is very important we get that alignment. It certainly helps the national team.

“We have probably been in silos for a long, long time. Warren [Gatland] used to talk to me about that sort of thing and I don’t think a lot has changed in the eight years I have been here, so the sooner we can get full alignment and everybody working for the common good then I think that has got to be a positive not only for the national team but also for the clubs.

“I know there are a lot of people who have got their heads down at the moment and are trying to get the best possible solution for everybody going forward in Welsh rugby.”

Welsh rugby’s power brokers are yet to make their plans for the future public, although it does appear that a reduction in teams, at least for now, is off the table.

But Pivac did acknowledge that change has to come, whatever that looks like.

“There are some people in the game in Wales that know there needs to be some change, what that change is exactly time will tell, or if it remains exactly the way it is and somehow we find some more funding.”'


I get the overall point, it's nice to have a core of players from a club and then sprinkle with star dust from elsewhere, Saracens are obviously set up to benefit the club first and foremost though not the international team. And having a great club side is helped massively by the last point in funding. Obviously Saracens cheated to get to the level they did but it's also true to say that their environment/coaches/etc improved almost every player that went there.

WOL wrote:And Pivac: '“It depends on how you rate the player pool and how many players you think are capable of playing international rugby. Are we paying players that aren’t really at that level? So there’s a lot of factors to take into account.

“You could also say that if you reduce the number of teams, like Scotland, you might have a couple of competitive teams. There’s an argument both ways, I think.”

Snake

I suppose he has to toe the line with his bosses, given he shouldn't be in his job still.

RiscaGame wrote:

WOL wrote:And Pivac: '“It depends on how you rate the player pool and how many players you think are capable of playing international rugby. Are we paying players that aren’t really at that level? So there’s a lot of factors to take into account.

“You could also say that if you reduce the number of teams, like Scotland, you might have a couple of competitive teams. There’s an argument both ways, I think.”

Snake

I suppose he has to toe the line with his bosses, given he shouldn't be in his job still.

Glasgow have won 10 URC games this season. Edinburgh 9

Ospreys 10, Scarlets 8, Cardiff 7, Dragons 2

Of the 10 Glasgow have won, 3 have been against Italian teams. Of the 9 Edinburgh have won, 3 have come against Italian teams.

So Glasgow have won 7 non-Italian games, Edinburgh 6 non-Italian games.

At this stage of the season, Cardiff have won 6 non-Italian games, Ospreys 8, Scarlets also 6.

So Ospreys are more successful than Glasgow whilst Cardiff and the Turks are as successful as Edinburgh.

What does this prove? Only that Pivac is a fool.

PhilBB wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

WOL wrote:And Pivac: '“It depends on how you rate the player pool and how many players you think are capable of playing international rugby. Are we paying players that aren’t really at that level? So there’s a lot of factors to take into account.

“You could also say that if you reduce the number of teams, like Scotland, you might have a couple of competitive teams. There’s an argument both ways, I think.”

Snake

I suppose he has to toe the line with his bosses, given he shouldn't be in his job still.

Glasgow have won 10 URC games this season. Edinburgh 9

Ospreys 10, Scarlets 8, Cardiff 7, Dragons 2

Of the 10 Glasgow have won, 3 have been against Italian teams. Of the 9 Edinburgh have won, 3 have come against Italian teams.

So Glasgow have won 7 non-Italian games, Edinburgh 6 non-Italian games.

At this stage of the season, Cardiff have won 6 non-Italian games, Ospreys 8, Scarlets also 6.

So Ospreys are more successful than Glasgow whilst Cardiff and the Turks are as successful as Edinburgh.

What does this prove? Only that Pivac is a fool.

Hmm, like Doncaster are better than Ealing because they came 2nd.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Hmm, like Doncaster are better than Ealing because they came 2nd.

Not quite, but nice try

Well ignoring the table they are. Got more wins.