The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

Do the regions play the Italian sides as often as the Scottish teams ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well ignoring the table they are. Got more wins.

Because of the daft "Conference" set up meaning the Scottish have it easier than the rest, especially easier than Connacht have as they have to play each of the three other Irish teams twice.

So the league table is complete red herring as it's not a proper competition.

LordDowlais wrote:Do the regions play the Italian sides as often as the Scottish teams ?

No.

Scottish and Italian teams are in the same "Conference"

PhilBB wrote:

Glasgow have won 10 URC games this season. Edinburgh 9

Ospreys 10, Scarlets 8, Cardiff 7, Dragons 2

Of the 10 Glasgow have won, 3 have been against Italian teams. Of the 9 Edinburgh have won, 3 have come against Italian teams.

So Glasgow have won 7 non-Italian games, Edinburgh 6 non-Italian games.

At this stage of the season, Cardiff have won 6 non-Italian games, Ospreys 8, Scarlets also 6.

So Ospreys are more successful than Glasgow whilst Cardiff and the Turks are as successful as Edinburgh.

Well the Welsh teams have played 2 more games against non Italian sides than the Scottish teams.
Also Benetton are a stronger side than Dragons

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well ignoring the table they are. Got more wins.

Because of the daft "Conference" set up meaning the Scottish have it easier than the rest, especially easier than Connacht have as they have to play each of the three other Irish teams twice.

So the league table is complete red herring as it's not a proper competition.

Bit like the 6Ns, not completely fair then. But there again I've heard that some teams want to play teams from their own nation more than having to travel elsewhere as their fans won't shell out. Guess that's why you have the play offs at the end to even things out. A league probably would be preferable (for me) to a conference system though.

geoff999rugby wrote:

a) Well the Welsh teams have played 2 more games against non Italian sides than the Scottish teams.
b) Also Benetton are a stronger side than Dragons

a) Exactly, thus giving the Scots an advantage
b) True

No 7&1/2 wrote:But there again I've heard that some teams want to play teams from their own nation more than having to travel elsewhere as their fans won't shell out.

Why did you write that?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But there again I've heard that some teams want to play teams from their own nation more than having to travel elsewhere as their fans won't shell out.

Why did you write that?

Because it's what I've read and heard from some viewers/spectators of the URC. Some fans prefer for instance less games for the Welsh against Italian sides. There's a range of views after all.

Seen this on the beeb too, looks to be the same interview I think, or some of the wording is the same but spells out some of the issues around this topic insofar as what is the main outcome for any changes. Pivac below says it's about getting a strng Welsh team and the club game will be strengthened from that; wrong way around for me, and too focused on Welsh playser at Welsh teams:

"If you look at Ireland with the national team, the links with Leinster, Munster, Ulster, the skillsets required to play the games they want to play, the technical work they are doing, it's across the board," said Pivac.

"It's an easy step up for players to go from club to international - everybody is on the same page.

"We are pretty much operating in silos and have done for the eight years I have been in the country.

"We all know ultimately for the national team to have continued success and back that up, it is going to be that much easier if we are working together.

"The system is flawed at the moment, in my view. It is the way contracts are set up, who is contracting people, there are lots of things we can look at.

"The main thing is getting people in a room and saying what is best for Welsh rugby. It's going to take people getting around the table as we are doing.

"Everybody wants the best for Welsh rugby which is a successful national team which then makes successful club teams.

"The national team is the flagship and if it does well, that affects funding and helps everybody.

"Maybe I look at it too simplistically but if we all work together for the common good, we will get a better result."

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But there again I've heard that some teams want to play teams from their own nation more than having to travel elsewhere as their fans won't shell out.

Why did you write that?

Because it's what I've read and heard from some viewers/spectators of the URC. Some fans prefer for instance less games for the Welsh against Italian sides. There's a range of views after all.

Well, that's an interesting view on the Conference set up.....

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

a) Well the Welsh teams have played 2 more games against non Italian sides than the Scottish teams.
b) Also Benetton are a stronger side than Dragons

a) Exactly, thus giving the Scots an advantage
b) True

If they have played more games against non Italian sides than the Scots then it is kind of obvious they have a better chance of winning more !

geoff999rugby wrote:

If they have played more games against non Italian sides than the Scots then it is kind of obvious they have a better chance of winning more !

So to disprove your angle here, you'd need to check comparative results even further? Ok.

It still won't paint the Scots in the light that Pivac has done.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well ignoring the table they are. Got more wins.

Because of the daft "Conference" set up meaning the Scottish have it easier than the rest, especially easier than Connacht have as they have to play each of the three other Irish teams twice.

So the league table is complete red herring as it's not a proper competition.

TBH, I knew the answer.

It's one of the main reasons why it's hard to get support for the league, as nobody knows whats going on, unless you are a hardened fan. Bit of a laugh really.

But then again people have been finding a reason to grumble well before conferences.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But then again people have been finding a reason to grumble well before conferences.

Not much finding required when they all just land in your lap.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well ignoring the table they are. Got more wins.

Because of the daft "Conference" set up meaning the Scottish have it easier than the rest, especially easier than Connacht have as they have to play each of the three other Irish teams twice.

So the league table is complete red herring as it's not a proper competition.

TBH, I knew the answer.

It's one of the main reasons why it's hard to get support for the league, as nobody knows whats going on, unless you are a hardened fan. Bit of a laugh really.

There's some kind of anomaly that allows the winner of the URC to not qualify for the Champions Cup, or some kind of similar nonsense.

The whole set up is a complete joke.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But then again people have been finding a reason to grumble well before conferences.

Not much finding required when they all just land in your lap.

There's always something for someone of course. Not enough games against fellow Welsh sides; too may etc.

I was reading back on some of the old threads on this, not too much changes really. Comes back alot of the time of people wanting more money for their team to have better players and win more, be that on a national welsh league view, as part of the joint pro 14/urc/etc, as part of the English league. Not too many here have linked a primary thing of making the Welsh national side though as Pivac has here. Now whether on that last point it's more prevalent elsewhere than from fans here, possibly the case.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well ignoring the table they are. Got more wins.

Because of the daft "Conference" set up meaning the Scottish have it easier than the rest, especially easier than Connacht have as they have to play each of the three other Irish teams twice.

So the league table is complete red herring as it's not a proper competition.

TBH, I knew the answer.

It's one of the main reasons why it's hard to get support for the league, as nobody knows whats going on, unless you are a hardened fan. Bit of a laugh really.

There's some kind of anomaly that allows the winner of the URC to not qualify for the Champions Cup, or some kind of similar nonsense.

The whole set up is a complete joke.

Agree with that point. Europe should be down to league placing, or winning the Chmapions cup, not because you happen to be Welsh etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not too many here have linked a primary thing of making the Welsh national side though as Pivac has here. Now whether on that last point it's more prevalent elsewhere than from fans here, possibly the case.

I'm not sure what that means, let alone its relevance.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But then again people have been finding a reason to grumble well before conferences.

Not much finding required when they all just land in your lap.

There's always something for someone of course. Not enough games against fellow Welsh sides; too may etc.

I was reading back on some of the old threads on this, not too much changes really. Comes back alot of the time of people wanting more money for their team to have better players and win more, be that on a national welsh league view, as part of the joint pro 14/urc/etc, as part of the English league. Not too many here have linked a primary thing of making the Welsh national side though as Pivac has here. Now whether on that last point it's more prevalent elsewhere than from fans here, possibly the case.

I think it's a given that pro sport develops players for the international game.  Goes without saying for me.  Whether it is the whole raison d'etre of the regions is another thing, and that's where you'll find disagreement.  But certainly I think the regions (or any pro sports teams) should be aiming to develop the players to a point where they are international class - which team wouldn't aspire to have that level of player - and in doing so they are developing players for the international game.  

For me personally though the balance needs to be addressed or redressed.  It's felt for a while like the regions are just a place for the international players to keep match fit and to help the regions sell some tickets.  I'd like to see a case where the regions really showcase their top players and getting selected for international is the cherry on the cake, it's kudos for the club, etc.  It feels a bit backwards at the moment and almost like Team Wales is loaning players back to the regions rather than the star players standing out and getting selected for the international tournaments.  Could just be me though. I wonder if the Top 38 players thing has led to this a bit.  Almost like 'when you're in, you're in' and you only have to do the odd turn for your club before the main event of international.  I'd like the focus to be more on club and the players really having to put a hand up to be selected.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not too many here have linked a primary thing of making the Welsh national side though as Pivac has here. Now whether on that last point it's more prevalent elsewhere than from fans here, possibly the case.

I'm not sure what that means, let alone its relevance.

Well if you look at Pivacs comments he talks about the Welsh team as being the aim, understandably given his position then feeding to better club sides. The vast majority of comments from here are focused on how to make the teams better, or to make the experience of the fans at those teams better with the national side taking a back seat. It's relevance to this thread as mentioned previously is that format of league etc etc is painted to what your ultimate aim is,

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But then again people have been finding a reason to grumble well before conferences.

Not much finding required when they all just land in your lap.

There's always something for someone of course. Not enough games against fellow Welsh sides; too may etc.

I was reading back on some of the old threads on this, not too much changes really. Comes back alot of the time of people wanting more money for their team to have better players and win more, be that on a national welsh league view, as part of the joint pro 14/urc/etc, as part of the English league. Not too many here have linked a primary thing of making the Welsh national side though as Pivac has here. Now whether on that last point it's more prevalent elsewhere than from fans here, possibly the case.

I think it's a given that pro sport develops players for the international game.  Goes without saying for me.  Whether it is the whole raison d'etre of the reasons is another thing, and that's where you'll find disagreement.  But certainly I think the regions (or any pro sports teams) should be aiming to develop the players to a point where they are international class - which team wouldn't aspire to have that level of player - and in doing so they are developing players for the international game.  

For me personally though the balance needs to be addressed or redressed.  It's felt for a while like the regions are just a place for the international players to keep match fit and to help the regions sell some tickets.  I'd like to see a case where the regions really showcase their top players and getting selected for international is the cherry on the cake, it's kudos for the club, etc.  It feels a bit backwards at the moment and almost like Team Wales is loaning players back to the regions rather than the star players standing out and getting selected for the international tournaments.  Could just be me though. I wonder if the Top 38 players thing has led to this a bit.  Almost like 'when you're in, you're in' and you only have to do the odd turn for your club before the main event of international.  I'd like the focus to be more on club and the players really having to put a hand up to be selected.

Yup agree with most of that. And it's the balance that's so hard to achieve. We saw in the Football premiership where clubs were being very successful but with a reliance on foreign stars which some saw as a reason for apparent underachievement of the national team. Some people love that as much as others hate it, ie the whole we're scousers not English stick (and lets face it the large amount of foreign interest in domestic teams).

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well ignoring the table they are. Got more wins.

Because of the daft "Conference" set up meaning the Scottish have it easier than the rest, especially easier than Connacht have as they have to play each of the three other Irish teams twice.

So the league table is complete red herring as it's not a proper competition.

TBH, I knew the answer.

It's one of the main reasons why it's hard to get support for the league, as nobody knows whats going on, unless you are a hardened fan. Bit of a laugh really.

There's some kind of anomaly that allows the winner of the URC to not qualify for the Champions Cup, or some kind of similar nonsense.

The whole set up is a complete joke.

Agreed, if someone wins a shield & comes 9th or lower in the table then there is a chance that the 8th place team could win the play-offs & not qualify.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not too many here have linked a primary thing of making the Welsh national side though as Pivac has here. Now whether on that last point it's more prevalent elsewhere than from fans here, possibly the case.

I'm not sure what that means, let alone its relevance.

Well if you look at Pivacs comments he talks about the Welsh team as being the aim, understandably given his position then feeding to better club sides. The vast majority of comments from here are focused on how to make the teams better, or to make the experience of the fans at those teams better with the national side taking a back seat. It's relevance to this thread as mentioned previously is that format of league etc etc is painted to what your ultimate aim is,

Ta

As the national team has been hugely successful for nearly two decades, whilst other teams have spent their way beyond the Welsh pro clubs, that's another comment that underlines that Pivac isn't the sharpest.

The Oracle wrote:
I think it's a given that pro sport develops players for the international game.  Goes without saying for me.  Whether it is the whole raison d'etre of the regions is another thing, and that's where you'll find disagreement.  But certainly I think the regions (or any pro sports teams) should be aiming to develop the players to a point where they are international class - which team wouldn't aspire to have that level of player - and in doing so they are developing players for the international game.  

For me personally though the balance needs to be addressed or redressed.  It's felt for a while like the regions are just a place for the international players to keep match fit and to help the regions sell some tickets.  I'd like to see a case where the regions really showcase their top players and getting selected for international is the cherry on the cake, it's kudos for the club, etc.  It feels a bit backwards at the moment and almost like Team Wales is loaning players back to the regions rather than the star players standing out and getting selected for the international tournaments.  Could just be me though. I wonder if the Top 38 players thing has led to this a bit.  Almost like 'when you're in, you're in' and you only have to do the odd turn for your club before the main event of international.  I'd like the focus to be more on club and the players really having to put a hand up to be selected.

I'm not sure why there would be disagreement. Three of the clubs are independent businesses so their 'raison d'être' is clearly more than just producing players for Team Wales.

For the balance to be redressed, the Welsh would have to leave the URC as that's just a series of matches for fitness purposes.

You're certainly right that some players see Team Wales as their club.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Yup agree with most of that. And it's the balance that's so hard to achieve. We saw in the Football premiership where clubs were being very successful but with a reliance on foreign stars which some saw as a reason for apparent underachievement of the national team. Some people love that as much as others hate it, ie the whole we're scousers not English stick (and lets face it the large amount of foreign interest in domestic teams).

Yet, of course, the English national soccer team has become more successful the more the Premiership has grown.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not too many here have linked a primary thing of making the Welsh national side though as Pivac has here. Now whether on that last point it's more prevalent elsewhere than from fans here, possibly the case.

I'm not sure what that means, let alone its relevance.

Well if you look at Pivacs comments he talks about the Welsh team as being the aim, understandably given his position then feeding to better club sides. The vast majority of comments from here are focused on how to make the teams better, or to make the experience of the fans at those teams better with the national side taking a back seat. It's relevance to this thread as mentioned previously is that format of league etc etc is painted to what your ultimate aim is,

Ta

As the national team has been hugely successful for nearly two decades, whilst other teams have spent their way beyond the Welsh pro clubs, that's another comment that underlines that Pivac isn't the sharpest.

Depends on what people see as successful of course. May have been this thread or perhaps the BBC but there a number of ways it can be measured and I suppose the baseline of what you expect. The format of the 6Ns can mean that you have undulating set of results, where other teams are in their prep may mean it's much easier in years of odd numbers for example. So is 6Ns titles the tick in the box, is it overall win %. Some see the the whole years results as more a reflector. And some of course will only view the WC as the be all and end all, which I strongly go against!

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Yup agree with most of that. And it's the balance that's so hard to achieve. We saw in the Football premiership where clubs were being very successful but with a reliance on foreign stars which some saw as a reason for apparent underachievement of the national team. Some people love that as much as others hate it, ie the whole we're scousers not English stick (and lets face it the large amount of foreign interest in domestic teams).

Yet, of course, the English national soccer team has become more successful the more the Premiership has grown.

And yet has it? You could easily point to success more aligned to how clubs have got on in Europe, the banning of clubs following the Heysel disaster for me put us back years. Go back to the Keegan era of England and many were pointing towards a lack of opportunity for young English players as a huge negative impact. As Oracles point it's all a balance. Personally liking the youngsters not prepared to sit and are now testing themselves abroad e.g. Sancho, Bellingham, TOmori and Abraham.

No 7&1/2 wrote:gree with that point. Europe should be down to league placing, or winning the Chmapions cup, not because you happen to be Welsh etc.

I was going to report this, but thought otherwise, but it does uncover your agenda by singling out a certain nationality.

Well done.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:gree with that point. Europe should be down to league placing, or winning the Chmapions cup, not because you happen to be Welsh etc.

I was going to report this, but thought otherwise, but it does uncover your agenda by singling out a certain nationality.

Well done.

I said Welsh as that would be the club nationality of the side who would be 'responsible' of the side who could possibly win the URC not then being eligible for the Champions Cup currently. Don't think it's an agenda to work that out but even put in an etc in case that changed after the time I wrote it. But it's ok by me if you'd like complain about a scenario. Can even set my working out for the mods.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

And yet has it? You could easily point to success more aligned to how clubs have got on in Europe, the banning of clubs following the Heysel disaster for me put us back years. Go back to the Keegan era of England and many were pointing towards a lack of opportunity for young English players as a huge negative impact. As Oracles point it's all a balance. Personally liking the youngsters not prepared to sit and are now testing themselves abroad e.g. Sancho, Bellingham, TOmori and Abraham.

Yes, it demonstrably has by tournament progress.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

And yet has it? You could easily point to success more aligned to how clubs have got on in Europe, the banning of clubs following the Heysel disaster for me put us back years. Go back to the Keegan era of England and many were pointing towards a lack of opportunity for young English players as a huge negative impact. As Oracles point it's all a balance. Personally liking the youngsters not prepared to sit and are now testing themselves abroad e.g. Sancho, Bellingham, TOmori and Abraham.

Yes, it demonstrably has by tournament progress.

Ah. The pirates decline led to global warming argument.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

And yet has it? You could easily point to success more aligned to how clubs have got on in Europe, the banning of clubs following the Heysel disaster for me put us back years. Go back to the Keegan era of England and many were pointing towards a lack of opportunity for young English players as a huge negative impact. As Oracles point it's all a balance. Personally liking the youngsters not prepared to sit and are now testing themselves abroad e.g. Sancho, Bellingham, TOmori and Abraham.

Yes, it demonstrably has by tournament progress.

Ah. The pirates decline led to global warming argument.

A very, very, very weird angle to take.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

And yet has it? You could easily point to success more aligned to how clubs have got on in Europe, the banning of clubs following the Heysel disaster for me put us back years. Go back to the Keegan era of England and many were pointing towards a lack of opportunity for young English players as a huge negative impact. As Oracles point it's all a balance. Personally liking the youngsters not prepared to sit and are now testing themselves abroad e.g. Sancho, Bellingham, TOmori and Abraham.

Yes, it demonstrably has by tournament progress.

Ah. The pirates decline led to global warming argument.

A very, very, very weird angle to take.

Same as yours. False equivalence.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

And yet has it? You could easily point to success more aligned to how clubs have got on in Europe, the banning of clubs following the Heysel disaster for me put us back years. Go back to the Keegan era of England and many were pointing towards a lack of opportunity for young English players as a huge negative impact. As Oracles point it's all a balance. Personally liking the youngsters not prepared to sit and are now testing themselves abroad e.g. Sancho, Bellingham, TOmori and Abraham.

Yes, it demonstrably has by tournament progress.

Ah. The pirates decline led to global warming argument.

A very, very, very weird angle to take.

Same as yours. False equivalence.

You could only think that way if you don't understand that the top English talent improves by playing against the World's best. And you'd have to be very silly to not understand that basic fact.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

And yet has it? You could easily point to success more aligned to how clubs have got on in Europe, the banning of clubs following the Heysel disaster for me put us back years. Go back to the Keegan era of England and many were pointing towards a lack of opportunity for young English players as a huge negative impact. As Oracles point it's all a balance. Personally liking the youngsters not prepared to sit and are now testing themselves abroad e.g. Sancho, Bellingham, TOmori and Abraham.

Yes, it demonstrably has by tournament progress.

Ah. The pirates decline led to global warming argument.

A very, very, very weird angle to take.

Same as yours. False equivalence.

You could only think that way if you don't understand that the top English talent improves by playing against the World's best. And you'd have to be very silly to not understand that basic fact.

No, it's just you have to have a deeper knowledge of football and some of the impacts around that time. To give you the benefit of the doubt though how do you think the creation of the Premiership influenced the standard of the England team improving?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No, it's just you have to have a deeper knowledge of football and some of the impacts around that time. To give you the benefit of the doubt though how do you think the creation of the Premiership influenced the standard of the England team improving?

In professional sport, the best improve by playing with/against the best and training with the best. This fact is at the very core of the failure of Welsh rugby:

- Gatland took away the best players for far too long from their employers, meaning those left behind didn't benefit from training with and playing with the best. They didn't benefit from the positive osmosis that obviously brings.
- At the same time, the WRU took investment out of the game so the next generation were not as well prepared as the generation they followed, plus they missed out playing with and training with those better players.

That's the same across all sports. It's especially relevant to Welsh rugby but also to Irish rugby where they got over that issue solely because of the fee paying schools in Dublin (perhaps you could argue with a little bit of help from project players). This explains, for example, the relative decline in Munster where they didn't have the next pool of talent sufficiently prepared to not need the benefit of playing and training alongside the better Munster players, thanks to the "managed" (ahem, bs) programme of game time.

Something similar here about it https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10599247/English-footballers-getting-better-best-weve-had.html

And it's often part of the narrative of why an up and coming talent moves to a 'bigger club' in order to maximise his/her talents.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No, it's just you have to have a deeper knowledge of football and some of the impacts around that time. To give you the benefit of the doubt though how do you think the creation of the Premiership influenced the standard of the England team improving?

In professional sport, the best improve by playing with/against the best and training with the best. This fact is at the very core of the failure of Welsh rugby:

- Gatland took away the best players for far too long from their employers, meaning those left behind didn't benefit from training with and playing with the best. They didn't benefit from the positive osmosis that obviously brings.
- At the same time, the WRU took investment out of the game so the next generation were not as well prepared as the generation they followed, plus they missed out playing with and training with those better players.

That's the same across all sports. It's especially relevant to Welsh rugby but also to Irish rugby where they got over that issue solely because of the fee paying schools in Dublin (perhaps you could argue with a little bit of help from project players). This explains, for example, the relative decline in Munster where they didn't have the next pool of talent sufficiently prepared to not need the benefit of playing and training alongside the better Munster players, thanks to the "managed" (ahem, bs) programme of game time.

Something similar here about it https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10599247/English-footballers-getting-better-best-weve-had.html

And it's often part of the narrative of why an up and coming talent moves to a 'bigger club' in order to maximise his/her talents.

I think that sums up your point neatly on the Premier League, you've talked about something else instead! All I'm saying for the relative up and down around football was that there were far bigger drivers around that time. The European ban being lifted, the change to the structure of the Champions League, Bosman. For me all changed the face of the football far more than the relatively slow progress of the PL to be seen as an actual good place for elite players.

Now to your general points, I agree with a lot of that. Playing with and against better players will improve you. The balance there though is that if you look at it from a national side perspective there may be more players to block the development and progress of young players, or even slightly older. Criticisms elsewhere have focused not on the elite players as much but the slightly below international class seasoned pro who will put in a 7 out of 10 performance consistently which can make a coaches job easier than a 5 out of 10 one week followed by a 9 out 10 the next. And this then comes back round to my earlier points, if your aim is to get more money into a side to get better players, to compete and win more trophies then that's great (think that used to be your main aim years ago don't know if that's changed?).

It's sometimes tricky to translate that to a core of good players for the national side, look at the likes of Sale, who had wholesale SA, Saracens certainly had the Saffercens nickname for a good while. The counter is that clearly Saracens managed to take a lot of English players from elsewhere too by breaking salary caps but again as I previously pointed out they have a cracking youth side and set of coaches. In leagues with more sides though while money is splashed on foreigners, qualified players get the chance at teams lower down the league. I think there is a great risk with Wales that if money did become available and teams could chase trophies there may not be enough chances elsewhere. So it's about balance; or what fans actually want. Good international side, good club side or to win everything.

Let’s cull Cardiff and have three Regions .

mikey_dragon wrote:Let’s cull Cardiff and have three Regions .

I'd be happy with that decision.

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

a) Well the Welsh teams have played 2 more games against non Italian sides than the Scottish teams.
b) Also Benetton are a stronger side than Dragons

a) Exactly, thus giving the Scots an advantage
b) True

Did Cardiff manage to take advantage? Not been able to check the score yet.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

a) Well the Welsh teams have played 2 more games against non Italian sides than the Scottish teams.
b) Also Benetton are a stronger side than Dragons

a) Exactly, thus giving the Scots an advantage
b) True

Did Cardiff manage to take advantage? Not been able to check the score yet.

69... jajajajaja

Now all results are in I think it is more than reasonable to conclude the Scottish/Italian shield is no weaker than the Welsh shield.

What is clear do is two Shields are a lot stronger than the other two.
For the good of the competition fingers crossed the Welsh, and Italians, improved next year.

geoff999rugby wrote:Now all results are in I think it is more than reasonable to conclude the Scottish/Italian shield is no weaker than the Welsh shield.

What is clear do is two Shields are a lot stronger than the other two.
For the good of the competition fingers crossed the Welsh, and Italians, improved next year.

The regions are very poor. The thing is, they can keep being poor, and who cares ? Nothing will be done. Why ? Because there is nothing to worry about. The slogan "keep calm and carry on" springs to mind.

You will still have their hardened fans, some of who are members on here, who will keep pointing the fingers outwards for blame.

We, the Scarlets, looked very unfit in the first half of the season & our fitness does seem to have improved somewhat & there have been chinks of light in terms of our attacking (only 4 sides scored more points than us) but our defence has been shocking. I am still not sure that Hogan is the right man to be our defence coach as we are the 4th worst side in terms of points conceded.

Hopefully a full preseason, obviously minus the internationals, will stand us in good stead for next season, a top 6 finish & a deep run in the Challenge Cup is the minimum for me.

LordDowlais wrote:You will still have their hardened fans, some of who are members on here, who will keep pointing the fingers outwards for blame.

Care to explain, or will you run away again?

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Now all results are in I think it is more than reasonable to conclude the Scottish/Italian shield is no weaker than the Welsh shield.

What is clear do is two Shields are a lot stronger than the other two.
For the good of the competition fingers crossed the Welsh, and Italians, improved next year.

The regions are very poor. The thing is, they can keep being poor, and who cares ? Nothing will be done. Why ? Because there is nothing to worry about. The slogan "keep calm and carry on" springs to mind.

You will still have their hardened fans, some of who are members on here, who will keep pointing the fingers outwards for blame.

Nothing will be done?! That is literally the opposite of what is happening! Where have you been for the last month?! Did you not hear Nigel Walker talking on Scrum V last night about the work they're doing behind the scenes to try to change things? Did you not know that an independent report was commissioned which the WRU and regions are not working on to see what can be done?

Or do you just mean that the changes YOU want won't be brought in, and therefore that constitutes no change at all?!

You seem to put down the fans of the regions all the time, LD. Yet they're the ones who are at least getting off their backsides and trying to offer some support by attending, spending money, etc.

The Oracle wrote:


Nothing will be done?!  That is literally the opposite of what is happening!  Where have you been for the last month?!  Did you not hear Nigel Walker talking on Scrum V last night about the work they're doing behind the scenes to try to change things?  Did you not know that an independent report was commissioned which the WRU and regions are not working on to see what can be done?

Nothing is going to change.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:


Nothing will be done?!  That is literally the opposite of what is happening!  Where have you been for the last month?!  Did you not hear Nigel Walker talking on Scrum V last night about the work they're doing behind the scenes to try to change things?  Did you not know that an independent report was commissioned which the WRU and regions are not working on to see what can be done?

Nothing is going to change.

If you mean moving to the English leagues, then I agree that’s not going to happen. But there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them. Don’t think they’re going to drop a team though. Don’t think they’ll create new regions based on the points on a compass either. Could be wrong though.

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?