The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:You will still have their hardened fans, some of who are members on here, who will keep pointing the fingers outwards for blame.

Care to explain, or will you run away again?

Can you imagine a certain cardiff fan on here admitting that his club are woeful ?

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Now all results are in I think it is more than reasonable to conclude the Scottish/Italian shield is no weaker than the Welsh shield.

What is clear do is two Shields are a lot stronger than the other two.
For the good of the competition fingers crossed the Welsh, and Italians, improved next year.

The regions are very poor. The thing is, they can keep being poor, and who cares ? Nothing will be done. Why ? Because there is nothing to worry about. The slogan "keep calm and carry on" springs to mind.

You will still have their hardened fans, some of who are members on here, who will keep pointing the fingers outwards for blame.

Nothing will be done?!  That is literally the opposite of what is happening!  Where have you been for the last month?!  Did you not hear Nigel Walker talking on Scrum V last night about the work they're doing behind the scenes to try to change things?  Did you not know that an independent report was commissioned which the WRU and regions are not working on to see what can be done?

Or do you just mean that the changes YOU want won't be brought in, and therefore that constitutes no change at all?!

You seem to put down the fans of the regions all the time, LD.  Yet they're the ones who are at least getting off their backsides and trying to offer some support by attending, spending money, etc.

I didn't watch Scrum V last night sorry.

But if it's anything like we have heard for the past god knows how many years, then nothing will change.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?

Yep, we have here'd it all before.

Well at least the WRU will have to confirm that they're happy to go against the recommendations and explain their decision.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:You will still have their hardened fans, some of who are members on here, who will keep pointing the fingers outwards for blame.

Care to explain, or will you run away again?

Can you imagine a certain cardiff fan on here admitting that his club are woeful ?

I'm pretty sure Phil would admit that, but also say it's okay because of Cardiff's budget.

Now hear what all the fans are saying about Priestland? That's exactly what I said when Cardiff were chasing his signature!

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?

How is he meant to know that, until Nigel Walker says what's happening? Oddball questions. Nice to see you cut off the bit of the comment that hurt your feelings, again.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?

How is he meant to know that, until Nigel Walker says what's happening? Oddball questions. Nice to see you cut off the bit of the comment that hurt your feelings, again.

Well presumably he can answer it because he has stated that he thinks there will be changes. Asking which changes he think will happen is surely a valid request? Slightly odd that you've decided to sh1t your knickers over something so trivial, but that's where we are.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?

How is he meant to know that, until Nigel Walker says what's happening? Oddball questions. Nice to see you cut off the bit of the comment that hurt your feelings, again.

Well presumably he can answer it because he has stated that he thinks there will be changes. Asking which changes he think will happen is surely a valid request? Slightly odd that you've decided to sh1t your knickers over something so trivial, but that's where we are.

The key word 'thinks' is highlighted above. Like Mikey says, I can't know this as I do not sit on the various boards and advisory groups. But my feeling is that we will see some change this time because there is appetite for it across the board. The WRU want it. They're realising that their big cash cow (international rugby) is being put in danger by troubles in the pro game. Stronger regions means a stronger Wales team, and more bums on seats during the 6N and AIs. The regions and coaches want it from what I've been reading and hearing in the news. Hell, they even commissioned a report to tell them what needed to change. The fans and players seem to want it to. With that much 'noise' I think we will see some changes. But who knows what at this point.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?

How is he meant to know that, until Nigel Walker says what's happening? Oddball questions. Nice to see you cut off the bit of the comment that hurt your feelings, again.

Well presumably he can answer it because he has stated that he thinks there will be changes. Asking which changes he think will happen is surely a valid request? Slightly odd that you've decided to sh1t your knickers over something so trivial, but that's where we are.

Okay big boy, here is what Nigel said "But we have got to find a structure which works and we have got to be able to fund it at the appropriate level going forward." - that is what I presume Oracle's comment is based on. Assuming your comprehension has improved, you can read more: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/61542021
So as I said, until Nigel states it, how are meant to know? Again, just oddball questions. Still trying to misquote people and attempt to win something (which you fail at time and time again).

I'll say it again, we are not joining the English league

The Oracle wrote:

The key word 'thinks' is highlighted above.  Like Mikey says, I can't know this as I do not sit on the various boards and advisory groups.  But my feeling is that we will see some change this time because there is appetite for it across the board.  The WRU want it.  They're realising that their big cash cow (international rugby) is being put in danger by troubles in the pro game.  

But you're unable to state a single example of a change that you think may happen.

If we go through your list:

coaching - that would be lovely. To get the level of coaches that the successful teams have in the urc. Rowntree, Contempomi, Larkham, Jake White, Lancaster. Who's going to pay for it?
funding - where from? Certainly not the WRU.
governance - Who's going to vote for it? Last time it was suggested by a Chairman, the clubs revolted and booted him out.
structure - of what? If it's the pro/amateur game then see above
role of the Welsh Prem - could this change vastly enough to have a big positive effect on the 4 pro teams? If so, how?

Stronger regions means a stronger Wales team

This has not been the case previously. It suited Gatland to have the Wales players as much as possible, often more than other nations which meant they were weak and ill prepared for league and European games. If Wales can win grand slams with the 4 regions underfunded, then the WRU will see no reason to increase payments to the 4 regions as it won't affect them.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?

How is he meant to know that, until Nigel Walker says what's happening? Oddball questions. Nice to see you cut off the bit of the comment that hurt your feelings, again.

Well presumably he can answer it because he has stated that he thinks there will be changes. Asking which changes he think will happen is surely a valid request? Slightly odd that you've decided to sh1t your knickers over something so trivial, but that's where we are.

Okay big boy, here is what Nigel said "But we have got to find a structure which works and we have got to be able to fund it at the appropriate level going forward." - that is what I presume Oracle's comment is based on. Assuming your comprehension has improved, you can read more: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/61542021
So as I said, until Nigel states it, how are meant to know? Again, just oddball questions. Still trying to misquote people and attempt to win something (which you fail at time and time again).

I'll say it again, we are not joining the English league

I think you should probably just ignore me if you're getting this angry over some messages about rugby. Why do you keep banging on about the English league? Nobody is even discussing it as far as I can tell.

Probably because that's the change you want?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

The key word 'thinks' is highlighted above.  Like Mikey says, I can't know this as I do not sit on the various boards and advisory groups.  But my feeling is that we will see some change this time because there is appetite for it across the board.  The WRU want it.  They're realising that their big cash cow (international rugby) is being put in danger by troubles in the pro game.  

But you're unable to state a single example of a change that you think may happen.

If we go through your list:

coaching - that would be lovely. To get the level of coaches that the successful teams have in the urc. Rowntree, Contempomi, Larkham, Jake White, Lancaster. Who's going to pay for it?
funding - where from? Certainly not the WRU.
governance - Who's going to vote for it? Last time it was suggested by a Chairman, the clubs revolted and booted him out.
structure - of what? If it's the pro/amateur game then see above
role of the Welsh Prem - could this change vastly enough to have a big positive effect on the 4 pro teams? If so, how?

Stronger regions means a stronger Wales team

This has not been the case previously. It suited Gatland to have the Wales players as much as possible, often more than other nations which meant they were weak and ill prepared for league and European games. If Wales can win grand slams with the 4 regions underfunded, then the WRU will see no reason to increase payments to the 4 regions as it won't affect them.

Says I’m unable to state a single change that might happen then lists a load of the changes I previously said I think might happen How realistic those are is another thing. But I do genuinely feel we will see some changes. These is too much noise and anger being aimed at the regions and the union currently. Those at the top will not want to be remembered as presiding over the death of rugby in Wales, which they will be if they take no action. I don’t think it is just hot air. I think changes are afoot.

The bit about Gatland - everyone knows that he got decent results despite the regions. It was an anomaly, an exception. And people said Pivac wouldn’t be able to cover up the regions’ issues like Gatland did. And they were spot on. Any nation with poor teams would normally expect poor results at international level. Ireland improved when their teams got better. England have been worse the years when their teams were poor. Scotland improved when Glasgow and Edinburgh got better. If our players are winning more regularly, and if they’re winning more then they’re playing better than they are now, then that should translate to better performances at international level. Your last point is spot on. No chance of us winning much going forward, and the WRU wants grand slams because they’re good business. So all the more reason to act and get us back to being more competitive.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?

How is he meant to know that, until Nigel Walker says what's happening? Oddball questions. Nice to see you cut off the bit of the comment that hurt your feelings, again.

Well presumably he can answer it because he has stated that he thinks there will be changes. Asking which changes he think will happen is surely a valid request? Slightly odd that you've decided to sh1t your knickers over something so trivial, but that's where we are.

Okay big boy, here is what Nigel said "But we have got to find a structure which works and we have got to be able to fund it at the appropriate level going forward." - that is what I presume Oracle's comment is based on. Assuming your comprehension has improved, you can read more: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/61542021
So as I said, until Nigel states it, how are meant to know? Again, just oddball questions. Still trying to misquote people and attempt to win something (which you fail at time and time again).

I'll say it again, we are not joining the English league

I think you should probably just ignore me if you're getting this angry over some messages about rugby. Why do you keep banging on about the English league? Nobody is even discussing it as far as I can tell.

How am I angry? You're the one verging on offensive and misquoting people. The same as the other one really, two peas in a pod.

Nice to see you ignored the post, as per. You can't have a debate, it's just not possible as you struggle.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably because that's the change you want?

Yeah and him and the other one are always going on about it. They usually just ignore you or run away when challenged on it.

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?

How is he meant to know that, until Nigel Walker says what's happening? Oddball questions. Nice to see you cut off the bit of the comment that hurt your feelings, again.

Well presumably he can answer it because he has stated that he thinks there will be changes. Asking which changes he think will happen is surely a valid request? Slightly odd that you've decided to sh1t your knickers over something so trivial, but that's where we are.

The key word 'thinks' is highlighted above.  Like Mikey says, I can't know this as I do not sit on the various boards and advisory groups.  But my feeling is that we will see some change this time because there is appetite for it across the board.  The WRU want it.  They're realising that their big cash cow (international rugby) is being put in danger by troubles in the pro game.  Stronger regions means a stronger Wales team, and more bums on seats during the 6N and AIs.   The regions and coaches want it from what I've been reading and hearing in the news.  Hell, they even commissioned a report to tell them what needed to change.  The fans and players seem to want it to.  With that much 'noise' I think we will see some changes.  But who knows what at this point.  

Yep, that is want we all want. We all want competitive regions. But we have here'd all this before, didnt PWC do an inquest a few years back ? We all talk about funding and the what not, but is wasn't really a problem pre regionalism. I remember Newport RFC having Percy Montgomery, Gary Teichmann, Shane Howerth. Heck I even remember Cardiff signing Jonah Lomu for a strawberry season, the clubs were competitive with their peers in Europe back then.

Now look, Cardiff going to Italy and getting thumped with 60 points put on them. What has the world come to ?

How many inquests and investigations does it take ? Firstly and foremost, for my liking, we are playing in a league that does not suit us Welsh. No matter what way you dress it up, as we stand, this league and Welsh rugby are like oil and water. We need to find a way to fix that. Secondly we need better management of the regions, it's no good paying a player a kings ransom because he is an international if the coaches at his bread and butter team are not up to the standard needed. We should pay the players a little bit less, and the coaches a little bit more, that way, just perhaps, we can get the caliber of coaches at our regions that RugbyFan100 is talking about above. Thirdly, and probably most importantly, we need to make rugby cool again in Wales, we need to get that feel good factor back, I have said it time and again, putting it behind a paywall almost crippled the game here. Hopefully we can rise from the embers, but as long as people cannot follow what they are watching, then it will be a struggle, which is part of my first point.

There is so much to do, but at the risk of repeating myself, we have been here numerous times, and nothing has altered. Welsh rugby needs to make a big statement, they need to do something drastic, because it all just feels very stale.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably because that's the change you want?

Yeah and him and the other one are always going on about it. They usually just ignore you or run away when challenged on it.

Who is the other one ?

Phil.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote: there will be a change in either coaching, funding, governance, structure, role of the Welsh Prem, etc. Or a combination of some of them.

What sorts of changes in these areas will there be? When? How will they positively affect the 4 welsh pro sides?

How is he meant to know that, until Nigel Walker says what's happening? Oddball questions. Nice to see you cut off the bit of the comment that hurt your feelings, again.

Well presumably he can answer it because he has stated that he thinks there will be changes. Asking which changes he think will happen is surely a valid request? Slightly odd that you've decided to sh1t your knickers over something so trivial, but that's where we are.

The key word 'thinks' is highlighted above.  Like Mikey says, I can't know this as I do not sit on the various boards and advisory groups.  But my feeling is that we will see some change this time because there is appetite for it across the board.  The WRU want it.  They're realising that their big cash cow (international rugby) is being put in danger by troubles in the pro game.  Stronger regions means a stronger Wales team, and more bums on seats during the 6N and AIs.   The regions and coaches want it from what I've been reading and hearing in the news.  Hell, they even commissioned a report to tell them what needed to change.  The fans and players seem to want it to.  With that much 'noise' I think we will see some changes.  But who knows what at this point.  

Yep, that is want we all want. We all want competitive regions. But we have here'd all this before, didnt PWC do an inquest a few years back ? We all talk about funding and the what not, but is wasn't really a problem pre regionalism. I remember Newport RFC having Percy Montgomery, Gary Teichmann, Shane Howerth. Heck I even remember Cardiff signing Jonah Lomu for a strawberry season, the clubs were competitive with their peers in Europe back then.

Now look, Cardiff going to Italy and getting thumped with 60 points put on them. What has the world come to ?

How many inquests and investigations does it take ? Firstly and foremost, for my liking, we are playing in a league that does not suit us Welsh. No matter what way you dress it up, as we stand, this league and Welsh rugby are like oil and water. We need to find a way to fix that. Secondly we need better management of the regions, it's no good paying a player a kings ransom because he is an international if the coaches at his bread and butter team are not up to the standard needed. We should pay the players a little bit less, and the coaches a little bit more, that way, just perhaps, we can get the caliber of coaches at our regions that RugbyFan100 is talking about above. Thirdly, and probably most importantly, we need to make rugby cool again in Wales, we need to get that feel good factor back, I have said it time and again, putting it behind a paywall almost crippled the game here. Hopefully we can rise from the embers, but as long as people cannot follow what they are watching, then it will be a struggle, which is part of my first point.

There is so much to do, but at the risk of repeating myself, we have been here numerous times, and nothing has altered. Welsh rugby needs to make a big statement, they need to do something drastic, because it all just feels very stale.

That was because of rich benefactors.  But they've been driven away from the game.  Who in their right mind would put millions into a club that the WRU could cull at any point. Or 'de-fund'.  Because that's the constant threat from the union.  Far too risky for any sane business person.  What we have now is a fudge, as with everything in Welsh rugby.  Some private clubs but with a reliance on the union, some merged while some are standalone, union not wanting to take full control but still wanting to be in control. It's just a sh*t tip that is getting shown for what it is.

Disagree about the league bit.  Some fans don't like it, but I'm not sure about your 'oil and water' bit.  We (Wales) have been instrumental in developing this league from the original Welsh-Scottish league, to the addition of the Irish to form the early Celtic league, and then the addition of the Italians through to the current league format.  We've been equal partners through it all so all the decisions and direction of the league has had our hands in it.  No good bellyaching about something we helped create.

The Oracle wrote:Disagree about the league bit. Some fans don't like it, but I'm not sure about your 'oil and water' bit. We (Wales) have been instrumental in developing this league from the original Welsh-Scottish league, to the addition of the Irish to form the early Celtic league, and then the addition of the Italians through to the current league format. We've been equal partners through it all so all the decisions and direction of the league has had out hands in it. No good bellyaching about something we helped create.

All that was before it went to conferences and different fixtures. Also, it really didn't suit us back then, we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league. Something I hoped would have improved two decades down the line and a new generation of supporters.

Just because we helped create it, it does not mean it suits us, it has always looked as though we have had to make do or nothing. Like it or not, for the most part, us Welsh are very parochial, you can see that when it's Welsh on Welsh in the league, the games turn up a notch it gets more interesting, we are just not interested in teams from Ireland/Scotland/Italy South Africa. This is something we need to fix, we are in this league now, and we have to make the best of it, but how ?

I take it you agree with my other points.

The Oracle wrote:That was because of rich benefactors. But they've been driven away from the game. Who in their right mind would put millions into a club that the WRU could cull at any point. Or 'de-fund'. Because that's the constant threat from the union. Far too risky for any sane business person. What we have now is a fudge, as with everything in Welsh rugby. Some private clubs but with a reliance on the union, some merged while some are standalone, union not wanting to take full control but still wanting to be in control. It's just a sh*t tip that is getting shown for what it is.

Yes I agree. But the Ospreys had a go a few years back didn't they ?

LordDowlais wrote:we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league.

Despite the 6 Championship Titles won by Welsh sides you mean?

The Oracle wrote:We've been equal partners through it all so all the decisions and direction of the league has had out hands in it.  No good bellyaching about something we helped create.

We are not "equal partners" of the URC in any way shape or form. The independently owned clubs have little say in any direction of travel the league takes.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league.  

Despite the 6 Championship Titles won by Welsh sides you mean?

In how many years ?

And I wouldn't bank on seeing one in the near future.

But what I meant by emulating them is getting crowds of 10,000 plus per game, generating excitement in Wales, creating a buzz. All we have seen since the inception is infighting and failures.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league.  

Despite the 6 Championship Titles won by Welsh sides you mean?

In how many years ?

And I wouldn't bank on seeing one in the near future.

But what I meant by emulating them is getting crowds of 10,000 plus per game, generating excitement in Wales, creating a buzz. All we have seen since the inception is infighting and failures.

Well Wales has won 6 league titles with 4 teams and Scotland has won 1 title with two teams (and with some years more than 2 teams). So if Welsh teams are unsuccessful in the Celtic league I don't know what that makes Scottish teams.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league.  

Despite the 6 Championship Titles won by Welsh sides you mean?

In how many years ?

And I wouldn't bank on seeing one in the near future.

But what I meant by emulating them is getting crowds of 10,000 plus per game, generating excitement in Wales, creating a buzz. All we have seen since the inception is infighting and failures.

Well Wales has won 6 league titles with 4 teams and Scotland has won 1 title with two teams (and with some years more than 2 teams). So if Welsh teams are unsuccessful in the Celtic league I don't know what that makes Scottish teams.

I never said they were not successful in the league though did I ? Get over yourself.

I have said I would have hoped they would emulate their peers, rugby is a big deal in our country, I just thought with twenty years of the regions, things would be better, they are not, we have not emulated anyone.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league.  

Despite the 6 Championship Titles won by Welsh sides you mean?

In how many years ?

And I wouldn't bank on seeing one in the near future.

But what I meant by emulating them is getting crowds of 10,000 plus per game, generating excitement in Wales, creating a buzz. All we have seen since the inception is infighting and failures.

Well Wales has won 6 league titles with 4 teams and Scotland has won 1 title with two teams (and with some years more than 2 teams). So if Welsh teams are unsuccessful in the Celtic league I don't know what that makes Scottish teams.

I never said they were not successful  in the league though did I ? Get over yourself.

I have said I would have hoped they would emulate their peers, rugby is a big deal in our country, I just thought with twenty years of the regions, things would be better, they are not, we have not emulated anyone.

Who do you want them to emulate? How are they supposed to do it?

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Disagree about the league bit. Some fans don't like it, but I'm not sure about your 'oil and water' bit. We (Wales) have been instrumental in developing this league from the original Welsh-Scottish league, to the addition of the Irish to form the early Celtic league, and then the addition of the Italians through to the current league format. We've been equal partners through it all so all the decisions and direction of the league has had out hands in it. No good bellyaching about something we helped create.

All that was before it went to conferences and different fixtures. Also, it really didn't suit us back then, we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league. Something I hoped would have improved two decades down the line and a new generation of supporters.

Just because we helped create it, it does not mean it suits us, it has always looked as though we have had to make do or nothing. Like it or not, for the most part, us Welsh are very parochial, you can see that when it's Welsh on Welsh in the league, the games turn up a notch it gets more interesting, we are just not interested in teams from Ireland/Scotland/Italy South Africa. This is something we need to fix, we are in this league now, and we have to make the best of it, but how ?

I take it you agree with my other points.

Sorry, but I've watched a lot of games this year and the Welsh derbies have mostly been rubbish. Dragons v Blues the other day was so lacking in passion and derby intensity that you'd think they had no history between the two sides whatsoever. I've seen bigger ding dongs this year between Welsh teams and non-Welsh, sadly.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:We've been equal partners through it all so all the decisions and direction of the league has had out hands in it.  No good bellyaching about something we helped create.

We are not "equal partners" of the URC in any way shape or form. The independently owned clubs have little say in any direction of travel the league takes.

We, as in 'Welsh'. Which is the term LD used initially. He didn't say the individual clubs. He was talking about 'the Welsh'.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league.  

Despite the 6 Championship Titles won by Welsh sides you mean?

In how many years ?

And I wouldn't bank on seeing one in the near future.

But what I meant by emulating them is getting crowds of 10,000 plus per game, generating excitement in Wales, creating a buzz. All we have seen since the inception is infighting and failures.

Well Wales has won 6 league titles with 4 teams and Scotland has won 1 title with two teams (and with some years more than 2 teams). So if Welsh teams are unsuccessful in the Celtic league I don't know what that makes Scottish teams.

I never said they were not successful  in the league though did I ? Get over yourself.

I have said I would have hoped they would emulate their peers, rugby is a big deal in our country, I just thought with twenty years of the regions, things would be better, they are not, we have not emulated anyone.

Who do you want them to emulate? How are they supposed to do it?

Look at Leinster, they have set the bar. It's up to everybody else to emulate them. It's not for me to answer, it's for the regions to answer. If they cannot emulate them, then at least try and emulate the next best teams.

Perhaps your lack of understanding of this is systematic of the failures of the regions, you are happy with mediocrity, you are happy with your team, like I said earlier, keep calm and carry on, it doesn't matter, as long as I have a team to follow.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Disagree about the league bit. Some fans don't like it, but I'm not sure about your 'oil and water' bit. We (Wales) have been instrumental in developing this league from the original Welsh-Scottish league, to the addition of the Irish to form the early Celtic league, and then the addition of the Italians through to the current league format. We've been equal partners through it all so all the decisions and direction of the league has had out hands in it. No good bellyaching about something we helped create.

All that was before it went to conferences and different fixtures. Also, it really didn't suit us back then, we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league. Something I hoped would have improved two decades down the line and a new generation of supporters.

Just because we helped create it, it does not mean it suits us, it has always looked as though we have had to make do or nothing. Like it or not, for the most part, us Welsh are very parochial, you can see that when it's Welsh on Welsh in the league, the games turn up a notch it gets more interesting, we are just not interested in teams from Ireland/Scotland/Italy South Africa. This is something we need to fix, we are in this league now, and we have to make the best of it, but how ?

I take it you agree with my other points.

Sorry, but I've watched a lot of games this year and the Welsh derbies have mostly been rubbish.  Dragons v Blues the other day was so lacking in passion and derby intensity that you'd think they had no history between the two sides whatsoever.  I've seen bigger ding dongs this year between Welsh teams and non-Welsh, sadly.

There's been a few dour derbies but you can't deny the interest from fans and media is way bigger during Welsh derbies than any other league fixture.

When there is a history in the fixture, the people turn up to watch............ what a shocking development.

LordDowlais wrote:

Look at Leinster, they have set the bar. It's up to everybody else to emulate them. It's not for me to answer, it's for the regions to answer. If they cannot emulate them, then at least try and emulate the next best teams.

Perhaps your lack of understanding of this is systematic of the failures of the regions, you are happy with mediocrity, you are happy with your team, like I said earlier, keep calm and carry on, it doesn't matter, as long as I have a team to follow.

So you want the regions to be like Leinster, but you have no clue how they do it, you just want them to do it themselves, because it's not your job.

I can't believe the answer was there all the time. "Be like Leinster". I'll email the Scarlets now.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Disagree about the league bit. Some fans don't like it, but I'm not sure about your 'oil and water' bit. We (Wales) have been instrumental in developing this league from the original Welsh-Scottish league, to the addition of the Irish to form the early Celtic league, and then the addition of the Italians through to the current league format. We've been equal partners through it all so all the decisions and direction of the league has had out hands in it. No good bellyaching about something we helped create.

All that was before it went to conferences and different fixtures. Also, it really didn't suit us back then, we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league. Something I hoped would have improved two decades down the line and a new generation of supporters.

Just because we helped create it, it does not mean it suits us, it has always looked as though we have had to make do or nothing. Like it or not, for the most part, us Welsh are very parochial, you can see that when it's Welsh on Welsh in the league, the games turn up a notch it gets more interesting, we are just not interested in teams from Ireland/Scotland/Italy South Africa. This is something we need to fix, we are in this league now, and we have to make the best of it, but how ?

I take it you agree with my other points.

Sorry, but I've watched a lot of games this year and the Welsh derbies have mostly been rubbish.  Dragons v Blues the other day was so lacking in passion and derby intensity that you'd think they had no history between the two sides whatsoever.  I've seen bigger ding dongs this year between Welsh teams and non-Welsh, sadly.

Scarlets and Ospreys the other day was a ding dong of a game.

Also, I bet the crowd for the game you were on about was much bigger, I watched the game on the tele, and although the quality on display was average at best, the atmosphere was electric.

I am not talking about the quality on display, the regions are poor, I am talking about us Welsh fans, and the fact that we always see the Welsh on Welsh as the game to be at. Although I think you knew where I was coming from.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Look at Leinster, they have set the bar. It's up to everybody else to emulate them. It's not for me to answer, it's for the regions to answer. If they cannot emulate them, then at least try and emulate the next best teams.

Perhaps your lack of understanding of this is systematic of the failures of the regions, you are happy with mediocrity, you are happy with your team, like I said earlier, keep calm and carry on, it doesn't matter, as long as I have a team to follow.

So you want the regions to be like Leinster, but you have no clue how they do it, you just want them to do it themselves, because it's not your job.

I can't believe the answer was there all the time. "Be like Leinster". I'll email the Scarlets now.

Well yes, really yes. I cannot see the any other logic. Do you want me to tell Boris Johnson how to be a better prime minister whilst I'm at it ?

I'm sorry, but if you cannot motivate yourself to be better at something, and you need others to tell you how to do it, then you really are in the wrong job. I'll give you a start if you like, I said earlier, stop paying players a kings ransom, and pay more for better coaches, that's a start right there.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Look at Leinster, they have set the bar. It's up to everybody else to emulate them. It's not for me to answer, it's for the regions to answer. If they cannot emulate them, then at least try and emulate the next best teams.

Perhaps your lack of understanding of this is systematic of the failures of the regions, you are happy with mediocrity, you are happy with your team, like I said earlier, keep calm and carry on, it doesn't matter, as long as I have a team to follow.

So you want the regions to be like Leinster, but you have no clue how they do it, you just want them to do it themselves, because it's not your job.

I can't believe the answer was there all the time. "Be like Leinster". I'll email the Scarlets now.

Well yes, really yes. I cannot see the any other logic. Do you want me to tell Boris Johnson how to be a better prime minister whilst I'm at it ?

I'm sorry, but if you cannot motivate yourself to be better at something, and you need others to tell you how to do it, then you really are in the wrong job. I'll give you a start if you like, I said earlier, stop paying players a kings ransom, and pay more for better coaches, that's a start right there.

Perfect sense. While I'm at it, I'll also email Carlisle Utd FC to tell them to be like Man City.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably because that's the change you want?

Yeah and him and the other one are always going on about it. They usually just ignore you or run away when challenged on it.

Who is the other one ?

It's neither you or Phil.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:we have always struggled to emulate our peers in the league.  

Despite the 6 Championship Titles won by Welsh sides you mean?

In how many years ?

And I wouldn't bank on seeing one in the near future.

But what I meant by emulating them is getting crowds of 10,000 plus per game, generating excitement in Wales, creating a buzz. All we have seen since the inception is infighting and failures.

Well Wales has won 6 league titles with 4 teams and Scotland has won 1 title with two teams (and with some years more than 2 teams). So if Welsh teams are unsuccessful in the Celtic league I don't know what that makes Scottish teams.

I never said they were not successful  in the league though did I ? Get over yourself.

I have said I would have hoped they would emulate their peers, rugby is a big deal in our country, I just thought with twenty years of the regions, things would be better, they are not, we have not emulated anyone.

Who do you want them to emulate? How are they supposed to do it?

Jeez, how long since the Welsh won the league or made play-offs, or even made a dent in the European comp? Delusional. LD makes a valid point or two and you do your usual thing, it's getting boring now . Not sure what that makes the Scots and that is irrelevant to LD's point anyway, but their clubs and national team are ahead of Wales right now that's a fact.

5 years for the last win. The last side other than Leinster.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Look at Leinster, they have set the bar. It's up to everybody else to emulate them. It's not for me to answer, it's for the regions to answer. If they cannot emulate them, then at least try and emulate the next best teams.

Perhaps your lack of understanding of this is systematic of the failures of the regions, you are happy with mediocrity, you are happy with your team, like I said earlier, keep calm and carry on, it doesn't matter, as long as I have a team to follow.

So you want the regions to be like Leinster, but you have no clue how they do it, you just want them to do it themselves, because it's not your job.

I can't believe the answer was there all the time. "Be like Leinster". I'll email the Scarlets now.

Well yes, really yes. I cannot see the any other logic. Do you want me to tell Boris Johnson how to be a better prime minister whilst I'm at it ?

I'm sorry, but if you cannot motivate yourself to be better at something, and you need others to tell you how to do it, then you really are in the wrong job. I'll give you a start if you like, I said earlier, stop paying players a kings ransom, and pay more for better coaches, that's a start right there.

Perfect sense. While I'm at it, I'll also email Carlisle Utd FC to tell them to be like Man City.

Why Carlisle ? Are they in direct competition with Man City ?

Your answer to competing with Leinster is to cut the wages of players so the best go and play in England, France etc as a first step? Would the better coaches be with the semi pro Welsh league or the scratch regional sides you wanted?

For me if it's about being better than Leinster you want to be upping the amount paid to players and attracting the best foreigners into your teams?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your answer to competing with Leinster is to cut the wages of players so the best go and play in England, France etc as a first step? Would the better coaches be with the semi pro Welsh league or the scratch regional sides you wanted?

For me if it's about being better than Leinster you want to be upping the amount paid to players and attracting the best foreigners into your teams?

No, because we pay internationals a kings ransom as it is, but if the coaching is rubbish, then the players will not improve. Pay the players their true value, and use the extra money for better coaching.

Did Leinsters coaches come through a semi pro league ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:For me if it's about being better than Leinster you want to be upping the amount paid to players and attracting the best foreigners into your teams?

For me we need to retain all the best Welsh players (the 60 cap rule works for me) and bring in good foreign players and coaches at all the Regions. Put more investment into the academies, a foreign influence could be helpful here too. It's something that has never really happened before. The idea being to have a good first team and a strong bench, with more good players coming through and less average players like Josh Turnbull, etc. .If it doesn't improve them, nothing ever will.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your answer to competing with Leinster is to cut the wages of players so the best go and play in England, France etc as a first step? Would the better coaches be with the semi pro Welsh league or the scratch regional sides you wanted?

For me if it's about being better than Leinster you want to be upping the amount paid to players and attracting the best foreigners into your teams?

No, because we pay internationals a kings ransom as it is, but if the coaching is rubbish, then the players will not improve. Pay the players their true value, and use the extra money for better coaching.

Did Leinsters coaches come through a semi pro league ?

You'd acknowledge surely though that the best players will then move from the Welsh teams. Don't pay a player what they think they're worth and they'll be off just like Jonah Holmes who went to the Championship. I'm sure the next set of players coming through would be improved if they had someone like Robertson (huge fan), someone on the up and a great rep already. My question would be would you be able to get top coaches through money alone when they know the teams won't be able to compete for the best players?

My question re coaches was also at what level are you aiming for: the Welsh prem teams or the scratch sides you mentioned; or both? That was the question not where a top coach may or may not be developed.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:For me if it's about being better than Leinster you want to be upping the amount paid to players and attracting the best foreigners into your teams?

For me we need to retain all the best Welsh players (the 60 cap rule works for me) and bring in good foreign players and coaches at all the Regions. Put more investment into the academies, a foreign influence could be helpful here too. It's something that has never really happened before. The idea being to have a good first team and a strong bench, with more good players coming through and less average players like Josh Turnbull, etc. .If it doesn't improve them, nothing ever will.

I agree overall. Comes back to that balance, and it's really hard to achieve. Get a team able to mix it with the best, be that top Welsh, exciting kids, really good club foreign pros and star dust like the likes of Piutau. Get that team then hope the clubs still have the depth, and quality of Welsh to get a great international side. The risk is that the foreigners start to become too prevalent in certain positions and youngsters can't get through. But overall yes, strong club first and don't sacrifice them.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your answer to competing with Leinster is to cut the wages of players so the best go and play in England, France etc as a first step? Would the better coaches be with the semi pro Welsh league or the scratch regional sides you wanted?

For me if it's about being better than Leinster you want to be upping the amount paid to players and attracting the best foreigners into your teams?

No, because we pay internationals a kings ransom as it is, but if the coaching is rubbish, then the players will not improve. Pay the players their true value, and use the extra money for better coaching.

Did Leinsters coaches come through a semi pro league ?

A bit over the top. Which internationals are we paying a king's ransom to exactly? Are they worth it? If it is an international then yeah probably.

The Irish once had a good kiwi coach at all 4 teams and they got better.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:For me if it's about being better than Leinster you want to be upping the amount paid to players and attracting the best foreigners into your teams?

For me we need to retain all the best Welsh players (the 60 cap rule works for me) and bring in good foreign players and coaches at all the Regions. Put more investment into the academies, a foreign influence could be helpful here too. It's something that has never really happened before. The idea being to have a good first team and a strong bench, with more good players coming through and less average players like Josh Turnbull, etc. .If it doesn't improve them, nothing ever will.

I agree overall. Comes back to that balance, and it's really hard to achieve. Get a team able to mix it with the best, be that top Welsh, exciting kids, really good club foreign pros and star dust like the likes of Piutau. Get that team then hope the clubs still have the depth, and quality of Welsh to get a great international side. The risk is that the foreigners start to become too prevalent in certain positions and youngsters can't get through. But overall yes, strong club first and don't sacrifice them.

As you say it's finding the right balance. Ospreys once had all of that, except for the top coaches - hence they never fulfulled their potential. They had 3 kiwi's starting in the back-row, it wasn't good for Wales at the time but we also had Jonathan Thomas and Ryan Jones in that team, and coming through was a guy called Justin Tipuric.

Long term the Welsh Union needs to work on their coaching develpment program. That is where they should put immediate focus

Old Man wrote:Long term the Welsh Union needs to work on their coaching develpment program. That is where they should put immediate focus

Whilst that is in place, I think we could do with a few forwards' coaches from SA.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:Long term the Welsh Union needs to work on their coaching develpment program. That is where they should put immediate focus

Whilst that is in place, I think we could do with a few forwards' coaches from SA.

there are enough of them around, the trick is to find the best ones which isn't always that straight forward

Hope you don't mind me posting this as it kinda touches upon the subject. Reflects I think in part sport in general and the move that says teams are irrelevant if they ain't there competing at the peak of the comp rather than giving fans something to celebrate and enjoy week in week out. The instance here has also been reflected by Everton in the football prem where rival fans take the mick in moments that you can celebrate, ie staying up or lifting the mini league shield here. I do see a feeling, a demand, an expectation that a persons team should be challenging for titles or it's a failure rather than seeing it as a hobby and something to enjoy. If you only see winning the league as a measure of success the vast majority of sport is pointless.

Second point is after LD told me off for suggesting it was a lower placed Welsh team that could potentially stop a better team getting into the Champ Cup (cough, fully vindicated, cough):

Walesonlie 'Ospreys boss Toby Booth has responded to the ridicule his side were subjected to after they celebrated winning the Welsh Shield over the weekend.

The Ospreys finished Wales' top team in the URC and, as a consequence, won a trophy and, perhaps more importantly, got themselves a spot in next season's Champions Cup. The negative comments that flowed on social media came because, despite the aforementioned prize, the Ospreys still finished ninth in the league.

Some mocked the region for posting an image of the team lifting the shield aloft during an end-of-season night out. In reality, it was likely an obligatory photograph that the league required of them.

Booth said: "I've seen some social media posts around getting a trophy for finishing ninth and bits and pieces like that. For us, it's important for young players to have something tangible for their efforts. It's a reflection of a load of hard work.

"If you look at that wins column, we've done well and that's positive but we're obviously not satisfied with finishing ninth. There's a trophy on offer for the Welsh Shield. We've managed to finish top of that and win something, and that's obviously on the basis of a team that, a couple of years ago, won two games."'