The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

Yep, Ospreys are awarded for being the best of a bad bunch.

They have now taken a spot in Europe's elite competition that arguably they do not deserve, so a more deserving side has now lost out.

Well that's a way round answering questions on salary and offering any semblance of an apology for overreacting to a factual post.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well that's a way round answering questions on salary and offering any semblance of an apology for overreacting to a factual post.

What is this mess ?

I saw some criticism, above, of the URC format and the fact that Glasgow could be URC champions and not qualify for Europe

To be clear this has come about at the insistence of the Welsh and Scots

So, it was decided that, for two years, a sort of fail-safe system would be put in place. Organisers opted to base European qualification on four geographic pools, with the top-ranked Irish, Welsh, South African and Scottish/Italian teams progressing, joined by the next best four on the ladder.


The IRFU were against the idea, but were outvoted, with the Welsh and Scottish Unions wanting to avoid the possibility of four Irish and four South African teams monopolising the eight Champions Cup places from the URC.
Wales Online

Just wondered if you wanted to answer the previous questions.

Or if you wanted to say sorry I overreacted to your initial factual point about a team merely because they were Welsh potentially stopping a team who wins the overall league from competing in next seasons top European competition.

I guess it's a no to both!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just wondered if you wanted to answer the previous questions.

Or if you wanted to say sorry I overreacted to your initial factual point about a team merely because they were Welsh potentially stopping a team who wins the overall league from competing in next seasons top European competition.

I guess it's a no to both!

What previous questions ?

What are you talking about ? I think you need to go back through the 16 pages of this thread and show me where I have said all this.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your answer to competing with Leinster is to cut the wages of players so the best go and play in England, France etc as a first step? Would the better coaches be with the semi pro Welsh league or the scratch regional sides you wanted?

For me if it's about being better than Leinster you want to be upping the amount paid to players and attracting the best foreigners into your teams?

No, because we pay internationals a kings ransom as it is, but if the coaching is rubbish, then the players will not improve. Pay the players their true value, and use the extra money for better coaching.

Did Leinsters coaches come through a semi pro league ?

You'd acknowledge surely though that the best players will then move from the Welsh teams. Don't pay a player what they think they're worth and they'll be off just like Jonah Holmes who went to the Championship. I'm sure the next set of players coming through would be improved if they had someone like Robertson (huge fan), someone on the up and a great rep already. My question would be would you be able to get top coaches through money alone when they know the teams won't be able to compete for the best players?

My question re coaches was also at what level are you aiming for: the Welsh prem teams or the scratch sides you mentioned; or both? That was the question not where a top coach may or may not be developed.

Question here on page 15.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:gree with that point. Europe should be down to league placing, or winning the Chmapions cup, not because you happen to be Welsh etc.

I was going to report this, but thought otherwise, but it does uncover your agenda by singling out a certain nationality.

Well done.

You getting in a grump because you didn't like reality here. Page 14.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:gree with that point. Europe should be down to league placing, or winning the Chmapions cup, not because you happen to be Welsh etc.

I was going to report this, but thought otherwise, but it does uncover your agenda by singling out a certain nationality.

Well done.

You getting in a grump because you didn't like reality here. Page 14.

You cannot be for real.

Again, another debate ruined with your nonsense. Oh well......

Like I said it's fine LD, I least I don't have to guess any longer that it's a no to both!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope you don't mind me posting this as it kinda touches upon the subject. Reflects I think in part sport in general and the move that says teams are irrelevant if they ain't there competing at the peak of the comp rather than giving fans something to celebrate and enjoy week in week out. The instance here has also been reflected by Everton in the football prem where rival fans take the mick in moments that you can celebrate, ie staying up or lifting the mini league shield here. I do see a feeling, a demand, an expectation that a persons team should be challenging for titles or it's a failure rather than seeing it as a hobby and something to enjoy. If you only see winning the league as a measure of success the vast majority of sport is pointless.

Second point is after LD told me off for suggesting it was a lower placed Welsh team that could potentially stop a better team getting into the Champ Cup (cough, fully vindicated, cough):

Walesonlie 'Ospreys boss Toby Booth has responded to the ridicule his side were subjected to after they celebrated winning the Welsh Shield over the weekend.

The Ospreys finished Wales' top team in the URC and, as a consequence, won a trophy and, perhaps more importantly, got themselves a spot in next season's Champions Cup. The negative comments that flowed on social media came because, despite the aforementioned prize, the Ospreys still finished ninth in the league.

Some mocked the region for posting an image of the team lifting the shield aloft during an end-of-season night out. In reality, it was likely an obligatory photograph that the league required of them.

Booth said: "I've seen some social media posts around getting a trophy for finishing ninth and bits and pieces like that. For us, it's important for young players to have something tangible for their efforts. It's a reflection of a load of hard work.

"If you look at that wins column, we've done well and that's positive but we're obviously not satisfied with finishing ninth. There's a trophy on offer for the Welsh Shield. We've managed to finish top of that and win something, and that's obviously on the basis of a team that, a couple of years ago, won two games."'

Let them be mocked. All those players and they finished.... 9th. Did you see the look on their faces in that photo with the 'shield'? That happy over 9th place mind. Something still stinks in the whole organisation as it has done since its ineption.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Let them be mocked. All those players and they finished.... 9th.

Where would you expect the Ospreys to finish? Which squads above them in the table should they be performing better than? Given the Scottish two play the Italians more than the Ospreys do, I'm looking forward to your answer.

TBF, they got to play Cardiff and the Dragons.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Let them be mocked. All those players and they finished.... 9th.  

Where would you expect the Ospreys to finish? Which squads above them in the table should they be performing better than? Given the Scottish two play the Italians more than the Ospreys do, I'm looking forward to your answer.

I think they are capable of finishing top 4, and in a bad season the top 6. Do you actually believe that, or did you just copy what Phil was saying?

You looked forward to this answer... There isn't much going on in your life then.

mikey_dragon wrote:

I think they are capable of finishing top 4, and in a bad season the top 6.

So you think if the Ospreys had had a good season, they would finish above the likes of Munster, Bulls, Sharks? I don't think I've seen any evidence to say that they should expect to finish above those teams. I'm nkot sure what games you've been watching.

Do you actually believe that, or did you just copy what Phil was saying?

Don't understand this sorry. What was Phil saying? What's it got to do with me?

You looked forward to this answer... There isn't much going on in your life then.

Very angry man.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

I think they are capable of finishing top 4, and in a bad season the top 6.

So you think if the Ospreys had had a good season, they would finish above the likes of Munster, Bulls, Sharks? I don't think I've seen any evidence to say that they should expect to finish above those teams.  I'm nkot sure what games you've been watching.

Do you actually believe that, or did you just copy what Phil was saying?

Don't understand this sorry. What was Phil saying? What's it got to do with me?

You looked forward to this answer... There isn't much going on in your life then.

Very angry man.

Ummm, that's my point! They aren't performing well enough. I see you like mediocrity, and we now know who you support.

Well seeing as you've copied what Phil said word for word, I tihnk you know. You also have to explain how it's relevant, and if so then how does it compare to playing Cardiff and Dragons as 7.5 says?

Me an angry man? Pot, kettle and black springs to mind .

PS still not sure what your purpose here is??? Everytime you get shot down you run off... only to return a few days later and repeat the process on a subject elsehwhere. Such childish behaviour.

mikey_dragon wrote: They aren't performing well enough. I see you like mediocrity, and we now know who you support.

They are performing about as well as they should be. In actual fact I'd say they did very well to be 9th above Connacht and Scarlets. Coming 4th is a funny thing to expect from the Ospreys

Well seeing as you've copied what Phil said word for word, I tihink you know. You also have to explain how it's relevant, and if so then how does it compare to playing Cardiff and Dragons as 7.5 says?

I'd rather play the Italian teams more over a season than Cardiff and Dragons. I'm sure most teams and fans would. I haven't got a clue why you keep bringing Phil into this sorry. I haven't read any messages from him, so I'm afraid you're wrong again.

Me an angry man? Pot, kettle and black springs to mind .

PS still not sure what your purpose here is??? Everytime you get shot down you run off... only to return a few days later and repeat the process on a subject elsehwhere. Such childish behaviour.

I'm not sure what is childish about discussing rugby, but I'm sorry you feel that way.

Thought that most Welsh fans were dissatisfied with playing the Italians?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote: They aren't performing well enough. I see you like mediocrity, and we now know who you support.

They are performing about as well as they should be. In actual fact I'd say they did very well to be 9th above Connacht and Scarlets. Coming 4th is a funny thing to expect from the Ospreys  

Well seeing as you've copied what Phil said word for word, I tihink you know. You also have to explain how it's relevant, and if so then how does it compare to playing Cardiff and Dragons as 7.5 says?

I'd rather play the Italian teams more over a season than Cardiff and Dragons. I'm sure most teams and fans would. I haven't got a clue why you keep bringing Phil into this sorry. I haven't read any messages from him, so I'm afraid you're wrong again.

Me an angry man? Pot, kettle and black springs to mind .

PS still not sure what your purpose here is??? Everytime you get shot down you run off... only to return a few days later and repeat the process on a subject elsehwhere. Such childish behaviour.

I'm not sure what is childish about discussing rugby, but I'm sorry you feel that way.

Well I think they should be performing a lot better with the players they have, I’ve said it often. Doesn’t take a genius to figure it out. As I said, if you think they did well then you enjoy mediocrity. That explains a lot of your posts to be fair.

You shouldn’t assume what most fans of other teams think, it makes you look rather silly.
You copied Phil’s statement word for word and hadn’t mentioned it until after he said it. Everyone on the forum can see it, so I’m not sure why you keep trying to make out it’s odd for me to mention it? I am not copying anyone’s statement. I post my own views .

Your posting is largely childish. Again, I don’t need to add to that because it is there for all to see. You carry on though, you’ll run off again at some point thus repeating the cycle.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thought that most Welsh fans were dissatisfied with playing the Italians?

I don’t enjoy it, so not sure why he assumed I am into playing the Italians. I’ve never been into it. And as you’re aware many (him included) have aired their dissatisfaction.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Well I think they should be performing a lot better with the players they have, I’ve said it often. Doesn’t take a genius to figure it out. As I said, if you think they did well then you enjoy mediocrity. That explains a lot of your posts to be fair.

That's completely unrealistic. You know it too, pretty shameful posting. There's no metric or logic for them being better than the Sharks, Bulls, Munster etc. Those teams clearly have better players than the Ospreys. So you are either posting nonsense to be contrary or utterly clueless. Or more likely, both.

You shouldn’t assume what most fans of other teams think, it makes you look rather silly.
You copied Phil’s statement word for word and hadn’t mentioned it until after he said it. Everyone on the forum can see it, so I’m not sure why you keep trying to make out it’s odd for me to mention it? I am not copying anyone’s statement. I post my own views .

Your posting is largely childish. Again, I don’t need to add to that because it is there for all to see. You carry on though, you’ll run off again at some point thus repeating the cycle.

Again, I'll say it for the third time: I did not see what another poster typed. Presumably it's about 3 or 4 pages ago? You know it is possible for more than one person to have a similar opinion right?

I'm here for any questions though - seeing as you think I keep running away and shying from answering them - fire away mucker.

Think it's fair to say that they'd have hoped to be higher than 9th though. And I get that there is a conflict between that and celebrating the position. Would they have done that without the guarantee that a Welsh club be guaranteed a top Euro spot; probably not.

All four regions should be doing better than what they currently are, and I am not saying winning more games, but not shipping four or more tries each game, not losing most of your away games to massive margins.

If the regions were still losing the same amount of games, but they were playing decent rugby and for the most part the scores are tight...ish then OK you can work with it.

What we have at the moment though are teams with international players, who were performing under Warren Gatland that are now just a laughing stock.

What I saw from Cardiff against Benneton last week was shocking, all the South African sides came to Wales and put a brace of tries on the regions, the Welsh teams are now seen as a banker 5pts at home, and an away game that is a banana skin at best.

Is this what we want to accept from our teams ?

Certain people keep blaming funding and the what not, but I do not buy it. There are some damn good players at the regions, who to put it simply, are not performing for one reason or another. This is down to the regions themselves to sort out.

LordDowlais wrote:All four regions should be doing better than what they currently are, and I am not saying winning more games, but not shipping four or more tries each game, not losing most of your away games to massive margins.

If the regions were still losing the same amount of games, but they were playing decent rugby and for the most part the scores are tight...ish  then OK you can work with it.

What we have at the moment though are teams with international players, who were performing under Warren Gatland that are now just a laughing stock.

What I saw from Cardiff against Benneton last week was shocking, all the South African sides came to Wales and put a brace of tries on the regions, the Welsh teams are now seen as a banker 5pts at home, and an away game that is a banana skin at best.

Is this what we want to accept from our teams ?

Certain people keep blaming funding and the what not, but I do not buy it. There are some damn good players at the regions, who to put it simply, are not performing for one reason or another. This is down to the regions themselves to sort out.

Warren Gatland was one of the highest paid coaches in test rugby. Shaun Edwards was and is one of the most sought after defence coaches in the sport. None of the 4 regions have the equivalent in club rugby, as far as I'm aware.

Or had even when Gatland was Wales' coach. And money is clearly a driver of success.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Well I think they should be performing a lot better with the players they have, I’ve said it often. Doesn’t take a genius to figure it out. As I said, if you think they did well then you enjoy mediocrity. That explains a lot of your posts to be fair.

That's completely unrealistic. You know it too, pretty shameful posting. There's no metric or logic for them being better than the Sharks, Bulls, Munster etc. Those teams clearly have better players than the Ospreys. So you are either posting nonsense to be contrary or utterly clueless. Or more likely, both.

You shouldn’t assume what most fans of other teams think, it makes you look rather silly.
You copied Phil’s statement word for word and hadn’t mentioned it until after he said it. Everyone on the forum can see it, so I’m not sure why you keep trying to make out it’s odd for me to mention it? I am not copying anyone’s statement. I post my own views .

Your posting is largely childish. Again, I don’t need to add to that because it is there for all to see. You carry on though, you’ll run off again at some point thus repeating the cycle.

Again, I'll say it for the third time: I did not see what another poster typed. Presumably it's about 3 or 4 pages ago? You know it is possible for more than one person to have a similar opinion right?

I'm here for any questions though - seeing as you think I keep running away and shying from answering them - fire away mucker.

It's not unrealistic though. I've said where I think they should be finishing, that's all. You can agree to disagree if you like, but I know you have a problem with people disagreeing with your way of thinking, so perhaps your child-like comments on this are best ignored now. Glad you've stopped assuming what others are thinking though, or maybe you haven't and I'm being too optimistic again.

You can say what you want, we all read it . I think it is possible for people to have similar opinions, but when they type it word for word after never mentioning it before, that is a bit fishy. The fact that there is another poster here with similar thoughts and posting style is also a bit fishy. They usually run off when challenged too, then come back and repeat.

You saying you're here for any questions is a complete and utter lie, when you've run away in the past a number of times. Can't stand BS to be honest, I doubt much of the forum has time for it either. If you've had a change of heart, just scroll back or check the posting history.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it's fair to say that they'd have hoped to be higher than 9th though. And I get that there is a conflict between that and celebrating the position. Would they have done that without the guarantee that a Welsh club be guaranteed a top Euro spot; probably not.

No point in trying to explain something this simple when they just accept mediocrity, or lower. The fans of Ospreys' I have had run-ins with have been the same for years, delusional and celebrating losses.

LordDowlais wrote:All four regions should be doing better than what they currently are, and I am not saying winning more games, but not shipping four or more tries each game, not losing most of your away games to massive margins.

If the regions were still losing the same amount of games, but they were playing decent rugby and for the most part the scores are tight...ish then OK you can work with it.

What we have at the moment though are teams with international players, who were performing under Warren Gatland that are now just a laughing stock.

What I saw from Cardiff against Benneton last week was shocking, all the South African sides came to Wales and put a brace of tries on the regions, the Welsh teams are now seen as a banker 5pts at home, and an away game that is a banana skin at best.

Is this what we want to accept from our teams ?

Certain people keep blaming funding and the what not, but I do not buy it. There are some damn good players at the regions, who to put it simply, are not performing for one reason or another. This is down to the regions themselves to sort out. 

I would agree. And do you also think Ospreys have underperformed for a number of years, this year included? I just think they can do whole lot better with the Lions/Wales players that they have.

mikey_dragon wrote:

It's not unrealistic though. I've said where I think they should be finishing, that's all. You can agree to disagree if you like, but I know you have a problem with people disagreeing with your way of thinking, so perhaps your child-like comments on this are best ignored now. Glad you've stopped assuming what others are thinking though, or maybe you haven't and I'm being too optimistic again.

It's completely unrealistic yes. Welsh rugby is right in the middle of mediocrity, performance wise. That is reality. Coaches, execs, squads, academies, revenue streams - everything. That's not accepting mediocrity, that's acknowledging where we are. If you think that Welsh rugby is not mediocre at best, then I honestly have no clue what you've been watching and how it has possibly lead you to your conclusions. With that in mind, there is no realistic expectation for any Welsh side to be challenging for top 4 in the URC. To claim that is as amusing as it is barking mad.

You can say what you want, we all read it . I think it is possible for people to have similar opinions, but when they type it word for word after never mentioning it before, that is a bit fishy. The fact that there is another poster here with similar thoughts and posting style is also a bit fishy. They usually run off when challenged too, then come back and repeat.

At this point it just sounds like you have a tin foil hat on.

You saying you're here for any questions is a complete and utter lie, when you've run away in the past a number of times. Can't stand BS to be honest, I doubt much of the forum has time for it either. If you've had a change of heart, just scroll back or check the posting history.

I gave you a chance - you failed to man up. That says more about you than me.

mikey_dragon wrote:The fans of Ospreys' I have had run-ins with have been the same for years, delusional and celebrating losses.

Which losses have the Ospreys fans celebrated?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:The fans of Ospreys' I have had run-ins with have been the same for years, delusional and celebrating losses.

Which losses have the Ospreys fans celebrated?

Some of them were away in France. Why?

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:The fans of Ospreys' I have had run-ins with have been the same for years, delusional and celebrating losses.

Which losses have the Ospreys fans celebrated?

Some of them were away in France. Why?

Seems very odd, celebrating a defeat. I don't doubt your honesty and integrity at all, that is very weird behaviour.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

It's not unrealistic though. I've said where I think they should be finishing, that's all. You can agree to disagree if you like, but I know you have a problem with people disagreeing with your way of thinking, so perhaps your child-like comments on this are best ignored now. Glad you've stopped assuming what others are thinking though, or maybe you haven't and I'm being too optimistic again.

It's completely unrealistic yes. Welsh rugby is right in the middle of mediocrity, performance wise. That is reality. Coaches, execs, squads, academies, revenue streams - everything. That's not accepting mediocrity, that's acknowledging where we are. If you think that Welsh rugby is not mediocre at best, then I honestly have no clue what you've been watching and how it has possibly lead you to your conclusions. With that in mind, there is no realistic expectation for any Welsh side to be challenging for top 4 in the URC. To claim that is as amusing as it is barking mad.

You can say what you want, we all read it . I think it is possible for people to have similar opinions, but when they type it word for word after never mentioning it before, that is a bit fishy. The fact that there is another poster here with similar thoughts and posting style is also a bit fishy. They usually run off when challenged too, then come back and repeat.

At this point it just sounds like you have a tin foil hat on.

You saying you're here for any questions is a complete and utter lie, when you've run away in the past a number of times. Can't stand BS to be honest, I doubt much of the forum has time for it either. If you've had a change of heart, just scroll back or check the posting history.

I gave you a chance - you failed to man up. That says more about you than me.

It's not unrealistic, and another thing for certain is that you are not clever. Your efforts in picking up on minor things to argue over because you think you're right on something when it's an opinion-based forum is pathetic, and besides that, when you aren't right you just run away.
Your comments lead me to believe that you're an Ospreys fan and you accept mediocrity. I see you've shhh'd on talking about their league wins now, after realising how silly it was to type that! They should be doing a lot better, whether they are doing better (which is what you seem to be saying) is another point entirely. It's obvious they are not playing well and are playing below the sum of their parts. You should probably refrain from insulting people when they tell you the truth about your team, it's a sign of low intelligence and delusion.

You agree with me then in thinking it's all medicore, yet you're calling me out for saying as such? That is so confusing. I just don't accept medicority, I guess some do and that's up to them, but I'd prefer they (you) did not try and drag the rest of us down.


Someone with your posting history RE the URC should not be accusing others of having a tin foil hat. I'll let that slide but I'm sure it has amused a few.

Why on earth are trying to give it the big one on an internet forum? You're a liar, as the posting history is there and you've run away on several occassions. I would advise that you don't tell fibs, watch a bit of rugby, and then come back and attempt a discussion like an adult.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:The fans of Ospreys' I have had run-ins with have been the same for years, delusional and celebrating losses.

Which losses have the Ospreys fans celebrated?

Some of them were away in France. Why?

Seems very odd, celebrating a defeat. I don't doubt your honesty and integrity at all, that is very weird behaviour.

It is odd, that is why it still stands out for me. Seeing how overjoyed professional players were at finishing 9th (the bottom half), some of which have been among the Lions, was also odd to me. If you are questioning another poster's integrity, my advice would be, don't .

Similar comments have been levelled at Everton as I mentioned earlier. I think it's about reflecting where you are as a team and what to expect. Avoiding relegation was huge for Everton, why not celebrate as a fan and a team? Similar with Ospreys finishing 9th but top of their mini league.

mikey_dragon wrote:

It's not unrealistic, and another thing for certain is that you are not clever. Your efforts in picking up on minor things to argue over because you think you're right on something when it's an opinion-based forum is pathetic, and besides that, when you aren't right you just run away.
Your comments lead me to believe that you're an Ospreys fan and you accept mediocrity.

I'm a Scarlets season ticket holder Mikey

I see you've shhh'd on talking about their league wins now, after realising how silly it was to type that! They should be doing a lot better, whether they are doing better (which is what you seem to be saying) is another point entirely. It's obvious they are not playing well and are playing below the sum of their parts. You should probably refrain from insulting people when they tell you the truth about your team, it's a sign of low intelligence and delusion.

See above. You've got this totally wrong. Yet again.

You agree with me then in thinking it's all medicore, yet you're calling me out for saying as such? That is so confusing. I just don't accept medicority, I guess some do and that's up to them, but I'd prefer they (you) did not try and drag the rest of us down.

Yes, they are mediocre. They can't achieve something you want them to achieve, because they are mediocre. I wouldn't expect Italy to get to the final of the rugby world cup.

Something with your posting history RE the URC should not be accusing others of having a tin foil hat. I'll let that slide but I'm sure it has amused a few.

Why on earth are trying to give it the big one on an internet forum? You're a liar, as the posting history is there and you've run away on several occasions. I would advise that you don't tell fibs, watch a bit of rugby, and then come back and attempt a discussion like an adult.

I have a busy life, I'm not someone who spends all day and night on 606v2 Mikey. I've offered to answer any questions posed to me that I have missed in the 16 pages of this thread, if you don't want to take that opportunity, there's not much more I can do. That you haven't done so, reeks of coming from a dishonest mindset. Disappointing but not unexpected.

What's the difference between now and 5 years ago the rugbyfan? Better Leinster, worse Welsh teams, obviously but drivers behind it? And are they solved by playing in the championship, or does that become irrelevant as soon as you get to play Jersey?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Similar comments have been levelled at Everton as I mentioned earlier. I think it's about reflecting where you are as a team and what to expect. Avoiding relegation was huge for Everton, why not celebrate as a fan and a team? Similar with Ospreys finishing 9th but top of their mini league.

That's what Toby Booth was sort of getting at. As I think they should be doing better, it's just entwined with their post 9th-celebrations. Some people can't seem to hack that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's the difference between now and 5 years ago the rugbyfan? Better Leinster, worse Welsh teams, obviously but drivers behind it?

Investment. Or lack of.

And are they solved by playing in the championship, or does that become irrelevant as soon as you get to play Jersey?

This must be the 4th or 5th time you've mentioned Jersey. Like Jersey are the norm in the Championship (as regards travel distance, away fans etc etc), They are not. They are the outlier. You know this.

The problems I'd like to be solved would be solved by my preferred method. Other problems that don't concern me will probably get worse. Which is why it will likely never happen.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's the difference between now and 5 years ago the rugbyfan? Better Leinster, worse Welsh teams, obviously but drivers behind it?

Investment. Or lack of.

And are they solved by playing in the championship, or does that become irrelevant as soon as you get to play Jersey?

This must be the 4th or 5th time you've mentioned Jersey. Like Jersey are the norm in the Championship (as regards travel distance, away fans etc etc), They are not. They are the outlier. You know this.

The problems I'd like to be solved would be solved by my preferred method. Other problems that don't concern me will probably get worse. Which is why it will likely never happen.

Blooming eck, all that money from the WRU and can't even compete anymore. And yeah, of course I mention Jersey, they're a core team of the Championship after all.

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm a Scarlets season ticket holder Mikey

Nice, if true... But you are an Ospreys fan right?

RugbyFan100 wrote:See above. You've got this totally wrong. Yet again.

No I was right you did shhh when you realised how stupid it was to bragg about the Ospreys doing well in the league many years ago. You didn't shh entirely, but that's another matter.
I'll say again, Ospreys and also Scarlets are playing below the sum of their parts. I think both should be doing better. There is no way to prove I am wrong here, yet you keep repeating yourself.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Yes, they are mediocre. They can't achieve something you want them to achieve, because they are mediocre. I wouldn't expect Italy to get to the final of the rugby world cup.

Yes they are, and they should be a lot better than medicore. They should be every season with the players they have. You seem to agree with me and then misunderstand me, again this just confuses me unless you're doing it on purpose to wind people up? I'm not sure why you are talking about Italy and there is no comparison either no matter how hard you try.

RugbyFan100 wrote:I have a busy life, I'm not someone who spends all day and night on 606v2 Mikey. I've offered to answer any questions posed to me that I have missed in the 16 pages of this thread, if you don't want to take that opportunity, there's not much more I can do. That you haven't done so, reeks of coming from a dishonest mindset. Disappointing but not unexpected.

A few symptoms of narcisism on display here, especially where it is suggested that I'm dishonest after the acuser has contribtued a lot of BS; and quite offensive too. If you keep trying to bug people then don't be surprised when they mention you barking and then running away. I'm also at work so I am not going to pull it back up. It's there, everyone seen it. We see you right now. There is no fooling anyone.

You wanted the answer. You don't like the answer.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And yeah, of course I mention Jersey, they're a core team of the Championship after all.

It's just a sidetrack, an attempt to detract from someone making a valid point, rather than counter it. He does it very often, when people get back to what they were actually talking about the barking stops for a few days.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Nice, if true... But you are an Ospreys fan right?

No Mikey, I'm a Scarlets fan and Scarlets season ticket holder.

No I was right you did shhh when you realised how stupid it was to bragg about the Ospreys doing well in the league many years ago. You didn't shh entirely, but that's another matter.
I'll say again, Ospreys and also Scarlets are playing below the sum of their parts. I think both should be doing better. There is no way to prove I am wrong here, yet you keep repeating yourself.

The Scarlets should have won the shield this year and qualified for Europe, they have a better and more expensive squad than the Ospreys, so in that sense they have been below par and disappointing. Having said that the Oakwell report says they are funded at the Scarlets level because of North and AWJ but I've not read it. The Ospreys playing squad this season has not been as strong as the Scarlets, yet they've out-performed the Scarlets.

Yes they are, and they should be a lot better than medicore. They should be every season with the players they have. You seem to agree with me and then misunderstand me, again this just confuses me unless you're doing it on purpose to wind people up?

We all agree they are mediocre. Yet you think they should be performing beyond their mediocrity. I have pointed out to you that this is unrealistic, but you still seem unable to grasp why.

I'm not sure why you are talking about Italy and there is no comparison either no matter how hard you try.

In hindsight it was foolish of me to try and give a layman example of a concept you're having difficulty understanding. I thought it would ease the burden on your thinking but clearly not.

A few symptoms of narcisism on display here, especially where it is suggested that I'm dishonest after the acuser has contribtued a lot of BS; and quite offensive too. If you keep trying to bug people then don't be surprised when they mention you barking and then running away. I'm also at work so I am not going to pull it back up. It's there, everyone seen it. We see you right now. There is no fooling anyone.  

Still no meat on the bones. I'm here to answer any questions if you find them.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:All four regions should be doing better than what they currently are, and I am not saying winning more games, but not shipping four or more tries each game, not losing most of your away games to massive margins.

If the regions were still losing the same amount of games, but they were playing decent rugby and for the most part the scores are tight...ish then OK you can work with it.

What we have at the moment though are teams with international players, who were performing under Warren Gatland that are now just a laughing stock.

What I saw from Cardiff against Benneton last week was shocking, all the South African sides came to Wales and put a brace of tries on the regions, the Welsh teams are now seen as a banker 5pts at home, and an away game that is a banana skin at best.

Is this what we want to accept from our teams ?

Certain people keep blaming funding and the what not, but I do not buy it. There are some damn good players at the regions, who to put it simply, are not performing for one reason or another. This is down to the regions themselves to sort out. 

I would agree. And do you also think Ospreys have underperformed for a number of years, this year included? I just think they can do whole lot better with the Lions/Wales players that they have.

100% Ospreys have underachieved. They were in the Champions cup a few seasons ago, they had about 12 Welsh team players in there 1st 15, and all they had to do away to Exeter was to stop them getting a TBP and Ospreys would have gotten out of their group. What happened ? They shipped 5 tries. Pathetic really. But I was told that it was all to do with funding.

The regions have been mismanaged for years.

mikey_dragon wrote:I'll say again, Ospreys and also Scarlets are playing below the sum of their parts. I think both should be doing better. There is no way to prove I am wrong here, yet you keep repeating yourself.

Why Just Ospreys and Scarlets ?

All 4 regions are playing below the sum of their parts, and that includes your beloved Dragons. There are more international standard players at the Dragons than ever, yet they are still the worst of the 4.

I believe a big budget such as Leinster has can help to build a squad with huge depth. However it isn't only about budget, it starts at systems in place to build depth and quality players, from school level all the way through academies etc.

Looking at the South African teams, they have by some margin the lowest budgets in the league. They are challenged more than anyone to retain top talent. Was it not for our schools systems we would not be able to compete.

There are a number of factors at play with the Regions. Just to start with the coaching and management has been sub standard since inception. Each of the Regions should be recruiting coaches who actually have achieved and won things. Granted they don't come cheap but were always miles behind pretty much everyone on that front. We should be getting the very best in and then getting promising Welsh Coaches to understudy so they can learn things from the best. I would then have those guys develop their skills by having a full set of pro coaches at the Premiership level so they can test themselves. Then whenever we lose top coaches we should be promoting from within but only apply it to the top coaches who clearly are delivering at Premiership level.

Funding is an issue. But to be fair the Regions are overpaying players and have been for years. On top of that if you give them half a chance they will just blow the money on overseas players. I also don't think more money if not spent properly will do a damn thing. What should be happening is 25% of the funding should go to running fully run academies from the ages of 19 to 23 (ideally the U23 URC A Team league would work well for this. Under 19's shouldn't be covered under the regions. What should be happening is have a college league where no players are paid at that age grade but at the end of each season a draft system should be put in place where the regions can then recruit their academies from the college leagues. Granted colleges would need coaching of a high standard so potentially I would create some sort of premier league of 10 teams and have the coaches funded by the WRU.

I don't think the Premiership should be a development tool. It should be used to allow some players to play at semi pro level and use it to allow regions to farm players out to gain fitness or some game time. It's never going to be a viable platform to produce players for the regions.

I'd also introduce a system where only 2 overseas players per region, which forces the regions to develop players from within Wales. I'd make sure the 4 regions are funded equally. I'd also drop the national 38 central contracts, and basically pick on league form again which we never really have done. It would force some of our centrally contracted players to actually perform at club level. Wales need to start selecting players based on Club Form. I'd also stop selection outside of Wales completely similar to New Zealand. At least then we would be seeing our best players in each position compete with each other.

Another point is our regions hold on to players to long. So many past their prime players are kept on way past their best. They should be moving these guys on and bringing through the next generation. That in turn puts off development of players to another year. Our Regions have had zero clue how to fully recruit and develop youth.

I could keep going all day on the things that would need changing in Welsh Rugby.....

Old Man wrote:

Looking at the South African teams, they have by some margin the lowest budgets in the league. They are challenged more than anyone to retain top talent. Was it not for our schools systems we would not be able to compete.

Hypothetically speaking, if say the Bulls squad was a squad in the UK, that squad would cost about £9m. The going rate for quality players in SA is lower because of the rand and the different market that exists there. SA are fortunate to have a system that just produces huge amounts of quality players as you know I assume. Same in New Zealand, they're playing rugby from 4 or 5 years of age at School. Not all quality players leave South Africa for money, you'll be better placed to answer why.

Ireland has a system that produces loads of quality players through the fee paying school system (again down to money). They've now started to increase that quality of coach that coaches at the school level (by paying them more), and the quality of player getting into the academy is that much better. Miles better on average than say the quality of youngster in Wales or Scotland. Then Leinster can fill up their squad with Irish qualified players where the 3rd or 4th choices are sometimes better than the 1st and 2nd choices at Welsh regions. Good system for them, works well. It is of course not able to be replicated everywhere.

This is all down to money. Everything is down to money.

Welshmushroom wrote:Each of the Regions should be recruiting coaches who actually have achieved and won things.

Can you give a realistic example of a coach you are talking about, who would take on a job with one of the regions?

What should be happening is 25% of the funding should go to running fully run academies from the ages of 19 to 23

The regions wouldn't win a game if 25% of their 'funding' had to go on academies.

I'd also introduce a system where only 2 overseas players per region, which forces the regions to develop players from within Wales.

There just isn't the player base for that. You'd be putting 18 year olds at tighthead. Just because they are Welsh.