England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

king_carlos wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Thought the injury count meant our back five options were looking a bit light. However, haven't heard of call-ups.

In addition to Ewels and Curry, Itoje is out, Underhill failed an HIA, and Wills couldn't play yesterday.

If all are confirmed unavailable, that would leave us with Chessum and Hill at lock, with Lawes, Ludlam, Vunipola, Isiekwe and the recently-arrived Jeffries. Numbers would dictate a 5-3 bench split, because we wouldn't have enough for 6-2.

No news of a callup has surprised me. I was hoping Earl and either Launchbury or Ribbans would get called up.

Underhill being ruled out presumably means Ludlam will start at 7. He deserves that after T1 and 2. He's been very good off the bench.

Guardian has this today:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/10/england-australia-rugby-underhill-willis-injury-third-test-sydney

When Curry was ruled out of the rest of the tour last week it is understood that Jones looked into calling up a replacement, with London Irish’s Tom Pearson under consideration. But ultimately he decided there were no viable alternatives given the length of time it would take players to travel and get up to speed. As a result he will be anxiously awaiting medical updates on Underhill and Willis – all the more so given that the breakdown battle has proved so pivotal in both matches to date – for what he has billed as a World Cup final after their series-levelling victory in Brisbane, where Australia had won their 10 previous matches.

In retrospect, calling up a replacement for Curry would have given a bit more breathing room. Someone like Earl would have had a better chance to fit in, with his England experience. By the time Willis had to stand down, it was already too late to try and get someone over, and respect the travel protocols. While there's no World Rugby prohibition on fielding players a few days after a long haul flight, it's probably wiser not to do so.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Chessum 5.Hill 6.Lawes 7.Ludlam 8.Billy

16.LCD 17.Mako 18.Heyes 19.Isiekwe 20.Jeffries/Willis

It's rather a big drop off in bench impact whether Willis or Jeffries takes that last spot!

I don't think Jeffries is a poor player either. He's a good player who's versatility is useful for Bristol. I don't see him as an international flanker though. I'd rather any of Earl, Barbeary, Martin, Ben Curry or Ted Hill for instance.

It's interesting that Pearson is still in their thoughts though. Not a young left field selection that was there one minute and gone the next - Will Evans and Jack Clement for instance.

Shame for Kenningham that he got injured so long ago, he might be looking at getting a call up otherwise.

king_carlos wrote:...I don't think Jeffries is a poor player either. He's actually had a really interesting career by jumping between Bristol, Super Rugby and Japanese Top League so frequently that he actually played all three in the same year...

I was getting confused by his career. I think there are two professional rugby players called Sam Jeffries. The Australian Jeffries has played in Super Rugby and the Top League in Japan.

Rugby Fan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:...I don't think Jeffries is a poor player either. He's actually had a really interesting career by jumping between Bristol, Super Rugby and Japanese Top League so frequently that he actually played all three in the same year...

I was getting confused by his career. I think there are two professional rugby players called Sam Jeffries. The Australian Jeffries has played in Super Rugby and the Top League in Japan.

Ah that makes more sense. itsrugby seems to have combined both players stats into one!

This Sam Jeffries in question still has a fairly interesting career on deeper digging though. Took a couple of seasons out from playing to build Bristol's professional development program - basically trying to set players up for after rugby with education, work experience, etc. Then he returned to playing afterwards. Also has a research master in climate science. Interesting bloke.

Yeah not calling up a replacement for Curry in hindsight is a mistake but you don't think you're going to lose 2 flankers in a week. Willis has a scan today apparently and given the time difference suspect we'll hear this morning on whether he will be ruled out. Ludlam is an ok fill in at 7 but I wouldn't want to lose him early in the game (though imagine the lineout).

No surprise that England have confirmed Underhill is out.

BBC article I've read says Willis has been cleared to train, so that is good new at least. We're lucky we've got good depth at openside (who'd of thunk it?).

Itoje being out is the bigger blow, we don't realistically have anybody to properly compensate for it (mind you, it was bound to happen at some point).

Its a good chance to look at Chessum as a starter...

yappysnap wrote:Shame for Kenningham that he got injured so long ago, he might be looking at getting a call up otherwise.

I still think he could be the key to a more all action England backrow. Has the lineout ability to be the third jumper but the mobility and workrate of one of the kamikaze kids. Might need to bulk up a little for Eddie's preferred 6 role but he's at the age he might do that naturally anyway. Hopefully he's back fit again for the start of the next season, I'd like to see Quins experiment with pairing him and Evans on the flanks as well but might not help the carrying game there.

With regards to Kenningham do you mean post WC..surely its too late for him to force himself in to the squad now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah not calling up a replacement for Curry in hindsight is a mistake but you don't think you're going to lose 2 flankers in a week. Willis has a scan today apparently and given the time difference suspect we'll hear this morning on whether he will be ruled out. Ludlam is an ok fill in at 7 but I wouldn't want to lose him early in the game (though imagine the lineout).

No surprise that England have confirmed Underhill is out.

We've already got 3 gun lineout jumpers and are very inconsistent on our own ball though. How many do we need? It's been frustrating me a lot for a while. Proudfoot and Cockers are hardly underqualified in that area either.

In 2019 the lineout operated well with Curry as a 3rd jumper. Sure we had Kruis but he only started against USA and Argentina.

GeordieFalcon wrote:With regards to Kenningham do you mean post WC..surely its too late for him to force himself in to the squad now.

I think it would be tough for him now given the go to option at 6 is also captain, however, I wouldn't rule it out entirely. If he gets back fit and starts combining well with Evans in the same backrow I can see Eddie taking an interest. Would offer a half Lawes and half Underhill style option which would give offer up an additional tactical card for Eddie to play. The other opensides aren't in the same jumping calibre as Kenningham (though Curry is good) and the other blindsides that do (Martin, Hill etc) are more in the Lawes style of physical mobility. Lawes is unusually good at the breakdown for a man his size but Kenningham is a step above that.

I didnt see the game, what is Itoje out for? Concussion?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I didnt see the game, what is Itoje out for? Concussion?

Yup. Basically tackled someone's elbow.

Itoje's knock looked very nasty on the pitch but he's since said he's recovering well, thankfully.

How England fare without Itoje should show us just where the second row options are at the moment.

Hill is turning into a bit of a forwards Slade. Terrific games every now and then but largely mixed. I'm hoping he puts it together as England really need another lock to do so.

I'm a massive fan of Isiekwe at club level but he hasn't brought it to internationals with any consistency yet.

Chessum I think will get many caps for England but he's basically just played his first season of senior rugby as a lock. He's been terrific for Tigers but up until this season his appearances were few and mainly in the back row. For reference even Itoje was halfway through his second season as a Sarries first XV regular when he made his England debut.

king_carlos wrote:Itoje's knock looked very nasty on the pitch but he's since said he's recovering well, thankfully.

How England fare without Itoje should show us just where the second row options are at the moment.

Hill is turning into a bit of a forwards Slade. Terrific games every now and then but largely mixed. I'm hoping he puts it together as England really need another lock to do so.

I'm a massive fan of Isiekwe at club level but he hasn't brought it to internationals with any consistency yet.

Chessum I think will get many caps for England but he's basically just played his first season of senior rugby as a lock. He's been terrific for Tigers but up until this season his appearances were few and mainly in the back row. For reference even Itoje was halfway through his second season as a Sarries first XV regular when he made his England debut.

Even he's still only 23 though isnt he KC? Still plenty of time to make the grade. He hasnt had a huge amount of opportunities really.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I'm a massive fan of Isiekwe at club level but he hasn't brought it to internationals with any consistency yet.

Even he's still only 23 though isnt he KC? Still plenty of time to make the grade. He hasnt had a huge amount of opportunities really.

24 now, but yep still young. Hill is 28 for instance.

Itoje's best at club level has been fantastic so maybe he will eventually bring that to England games.

24 is still pretty young in lock terms. It would be great if it just clicked with him...

Even Hill at 28 could "potentially" make the next 2 world cups. 33/34 isnt past it for a lock...

We shall see.

Reality is that having Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Launchbury around their peaks at the same time really spoiled us.

I know some want Lawes back at lock but as much as anything I don't think his body would cope with the physicality of playing in the tight 5 week in, week out anymore. Had he stuck with lock after the 2019 RWC he'd have been far less likely to still be a standout international and have made another Lions tour for instance I think. The move to lock was IMO a very shrewd means of extending his career.

I've been a huge Launchbury fan for most his career but have commented a few times that I think he has slowed down with the injuries. Pains me to say it but the ruck, carrying and offloading that once made him standout for a lock seems less prominent. His defensive maul work is still excellent though it's worth noting. That could be useful agains the right opponents.

I was so hopeful (or maybe deluded...) that Kruis would take two seasons in Japan to rest his body then return refreshed and partner Itoje again.

Well we will be heading to a 6n, and World Cup next season with options such as:

Itoje
Isiekwe
Hill
Chessum
Ewells

There are a few kids from the u20s etc who i have very high hopes for but they wont be ready for a few seasons...and they still have to threaten their club sides first.

Of the current options I'd be looking at Itoje, Hill, Chessum and Isiekwe so largely those used on this tour. Unless something very special in terms of player development happens with latter 3 I just don't see them as potential RWC winners though.

World Cups tend to be won by teams with very good second rows. Due to the differing way in which refs from all over the world officiate the breakdown sides tend to focus on the lineout more than turnover ball for attacking opportunities come world cups. Hence locks become even more vital.

1999 - Eales and Giffin (Cockbain at blindside)
2003 - Johnson and Kay
2007 - Matfield and Botha
2011 - Whitelock and Thorn (Ali Williams on the bench)
2015 - Whitelock and Retallick
2019 - Etzebeth, de Jager (Snyman and Mostert on the bench)

There are some weaker bench options scattered in there. In 2015 the ABs had Vito as makeshift cover for instance. England did similar in 2003 with Corry as bench lock cover due to Grewcock and Shaw being unavailable. Johann Muller for the Boks in 2007 was a fine lock but not a standout international as well.

The starters are largely a list of incredible players though. I'd probably argue Giffin is the weakest. He was a very fine lock in his own right, partnered by an all time great in Eales and they had Matt Cockbain at blindside.

As a side thought I only learnt today that Wales lock Brent Cockbain was Matt's brother. Given I knew Brent came from Australia and they played around the same time I probably should have figured it out. Brent is a player burnt into my memory from that incredible 2003 RWC game between Wales and New Zealand. Cockbain's lineout steal, Sweeney's break, Williams going in at the corner. It's odd how certain things just stick with you when you're first falling in love with a sport.

Worth noting though that when Kruis first came through with England many of us, myself included, were very underwhelmed. He wasn't terrible but was far less prominent than he became. In fact early on many of us kept commenting that Kruis isn't doing as much as we'd like but at least he's getting the restarts right because England had been really inconsistent there for a while. Score points, fluff the restart, give points back was an all too annoying recurrence.

When Kruis came in England moved to the structure with Kruis and his second row partner tight to the 10m line, then Billy around the 22m with what seemed a gulf in-between. It encouraged sides to kick into that space where Kruis either retreated to take the shorter kicks with a lift (not an easy thing to judge at all) or Billy came onto longer kicks with a run up so he'd usually make a few metres. It was extremely effective and solved a problem area really quickly.

Second row is a position where many will take time adjusting to the step-up. I think players such as Chessum and Tizard should get there. The question is when? Because it's feeling very vital.

Tizzard is a big one to watch....hes already playing very well...and his move to Saracens could take him to another level. I would imagine Eddie has had more than a glance over him. Enough for the WC....he could be your one special wild card

1.Mako 2.George 3.Riccioni 4.Itoje 5.Tizard 6.Isiekwe 7.Earl 8.Billy

It does look rather potent.

king_carlos wrote:1.Mako 2.George 3.Riccioni 4.Itoje 5.Tizard 6.Isiekwe 7.Earl 8.Billy

It does look rather potent.

At club level that's bordering on not fair.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we will be heading to a 6n, and World Cup next season with options such as:

Itoje
Isiekwe
Hill
Chessum
Ewells

There are a few kids from the u20s etc who i have very high hopes for but they wont be ready for a few seasons...and they still have to threaten their club sides first.

Since we are only looking at a 16 month window, I would include David Ribbans instead of Ewels.  Ribbans is more athletic than Ewels, is a strong lineout presence, adds heft and strength to the set pieces.  And he has good ball skills (for a 2nd row).  

Least season, Saints fans were able to watch Isiekwe and Ribbans on the pitch at the same time on a regular basis.  Isiekwe is a bit more mobile, Ribbans is a bit stronger.  Both good players.

Lastly, I never rated Jonny Hill above average despite his better form in the last year. I had always looked at him as a poor man's Launchbury to a certain degree. Ribbans has never pulled anyone's hair.

Willis has been declared fit, so England could field a 6/2 bench with 3 lock/back row options.

Jones could stick with a 5/3 bench, as he did for the second Test. Then again, he might conclude we let Australia back in because the forwards didn't have the puff to maintain momentum in the middle third, so an extra forward could be an asset.

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we will be heading to a 6n, and World Cup next season with options such as:

Itoje
Isiekwe
Hill
Chessum
Ewells

There are a few kids from the u20s etc who i have very high hopes for but they wont be ready for a few seasons...and they still have to threaten their club sides first.

Since we are only looking at a 16 month window, I would include David Ribbans instead of Ewels.  Ribbans is more athletic than Ewels, is a strong lineout presence, adds heft and strength to the set pieces.  And he has good ball skills (for a 2nd row).  

Least season, Saints fans were able to watch Isiekwe and Ribbans on the pitch at the same time on a regular basis.  Isiekwe is a bit more mobile, Ribbans is a bit stronger.  Both good players.

Lastly, I never rated Jonny Hill above average despite his better form in the last year.  I had always looked at him as a poor man's Launchbury to a certain degree.  Ribbans has never pulled anyone's hair.      

Id be amazed if Ribbans came in to the squad so late now. Jones just doesnt seem interested for whatever reason. Id have him in a million miles ahead of Ewells, but clearly theres something in Ewells that Jones sees that the rest of English rugby fans dont.

I think there is room for players coming into the squad. May not necessarily be Ribbans but if there are more eye catching displays from Mercer, Kpoku et al I can definitely see them being involved.

They'll have to move back from France though 7.5

They'll have to have a move lined up is all. Really like Mercer myself, thought he was hard done to to be dropped after his cap (was it the Japan game where a few got the bullet?).

Missed the news that Willis has made it, hugely positive that. Much more confident with that cover there.

Ludlam has been good off the bench but Willis has the higher ceiling, I’d be inclined to start Willis if he’s ready

id be surprised if Kpoku comes back. Hes made quite an impression the later half of the season when he was finally fit.

Mercer, im sure every club would love him...but again he seems to be enjoying himself.

It must be difficult for a player in his position. 25 year old, Playing great rugby in a lovely sunny part of the world on good money. The pull to actually play for England would have to be really big, especially knowing its Eddie in charge who pretty much dumped / ignored him in the first place.

Yeah there's that. And then there's the 15 to20k per appearance for England.

IF he gets picked by Eddie, and with Billy back in the fold and Dombrandt the potential (yet to be proven) heir elect that might not be set in stone.

Nope not at all. While Vunipola has been good this tour I much prefer Dombrandt. Then of course there is Simmonds so nothing set in stone at all. It doesn't appear that Jones is dead set against introducing players even at this stage though so just considering those French based players who have contract decision during this upcoming season.

Given I completely got how Grace was eligible to England earlier in the thread this does still apply to us from the BBC. I think their final sentence is wrong though as thats not 10 years cumulative and you need 60 consecutive months? After Sam said he's still eligible I relooked and it sounded as if he had an English parent. Seems to be some confusion though:

Wales head coach Wayne Pivac has welcomed St Helens winger Regan Grace's switch to rugby union.

Grace, 25, will leave the rugby league club at the end of the 2022 Super League season to change codes and join French Top 14 side Racing 92.

"The fact he has crossed to rugby union is a very good thing, I think," said Pivac about the Port Talbot-born back.

He is not affected by a rule which means Wales players with fewer than 60 caps must play for a Welsh region.

"I've certainly been involved in discussions around Regan," said Pivac.

Grace, who played the 15-man code before joining Saints, has 90 tries in 144 games in rugby league.

"He's a player of interest, he's played rugby union in the past and he's obviously a bit of a star in rugby league."

Regan Grace takes on Dragons' Jared Rosser for Ospreys in a Welsh regional under-16s game in September, 2012
Regan Grace takes on Dragons' Jared Rosser for Ospreys in a Welsh regional under-16s game in September 2012
Grace started his rugby career with Aberavon RFC and also featured in Ospreys' youth sides before his move north and a career which has so far seen him win three Super League titles and the Challenge Cup.

He will move to Paris later this year after rejecting an offer of an extended deal with the reigning rugby league champions.

He will miss out on playing for Wales in the Rugby League World Cup in the autumn, but Wales rugby league coach John Kear's loss could be a major gain for Pivac and Grace.

"We're very keen to see how he plays and obviously there is a lot more money in France," added Pivac, whose side has just beaten South Africa as they build towards the 2023 Rugby World Cup.

Although the Welsh Rugby Union has a 60-cap rule for foreign-based players, as an uncapped player Grace would be entitled to play for Wales for the duration of his Racing contract, the length of which has not been disclosed.

However, if he does earn international selection during his time in Paris then once the current deal ends Grace would then need to move to a Welsh region to continue playing for Wales.

Having moved to St Helens aged 17 in 2014, he is also eligible to play for England under residency rules.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tizzard is a big one to watch....hes already playing very well...and his move to Saracens could take him to another level. I would imagine Eddie has had more than a glance over him. Enough for the WC....he could be your one special wild card

It would surprise me if Tizard made the RWC squad - I rate him very highly but I think he will need time to settle in at Sarries and grow into his undoubted potential. I am guessing that Sarries see him as a natural successor to Kruis and partner to Itoje and I could see them playing internationally together in a year or two. That said, Eddie is Eddie and you never know what surprises he might spring.

If Kenningham comes back well from what was a nasty neck injury (caused by allowing players to charge/dive into the ruck from the sides - refs take note) he's likely to have bulked up a bit. If he hasn't lost his speed then I could see him interesting Eddie pretty quickly. He could well have got a cap last summer but caught COVID having been called up, and of the candidates I think he's the most rounded in terms of being good at all facets of the game while also having a serious workrate. He looks more like a bench option than a starter at the moment but a very handy player to have in the squad.

I really want to see what a back row of Kenningham / Evans / Dombrandt could be like for Quins - fast with good carrying and lineout options and three players who are all capable of making turnovers.

With regards to Grace, id prefer to just work on a few of our talented bunch of kids.

Theres nothing he does that i havent seen Radwan do for example.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given I completely got how Grace was eligible to England earlier in the thread this does still apply to us from the BBC. I think their final sentence is wrong though as thats not 10 years cumulative and you need 60 consecutive months? After Sam said he's still eligible I relooked and it sounded as if he had an English parent. Seems to be some confusion though:

Yeah he's qualified for both England and Wales but played for Wales at international level in League so you'd imagine they'd be confident of him opting for them again. He's got a one year deal at Racing with the option of a second. He'd be immediately available for Wales and then reliant on moving to Wales once it was contract renewal time if he wanted to stay in the international squad. He'd be available for England if he agreed to sign for a Prem club upon leaving Racing. That would probably require leaving Racing after the one season though. There's precedent with Shields playing for England before playing Wasps if I remember correctly.

Has to be a parent then. And yes Shields hadn't played a minute in England prior to his selection. Obviously a bit easier for a league convert as a winger but still big questions whether he hits the ground running. Honestly expected that Charnley was going to be a huge success for Sale, and then a damp squib.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Has to be a parent then. And yes Shields hadn't played a minute in England prior to his selection. Obviously a bit easier for a league convert as a winger but still big questions whether he hits the ground running. Honestly expected that Charnley was going to be a huge success for Sale, and then a damp squib.

Grace qualifies through his father. He played Ospreys under 16s before going the Rugby League route so he's not a complete novice, more managing the step up and getting back into the swing of it than learning the game.

Not exactly great reporting from the Beeb then.

When are taking back Iwan Stephens?

mikey_dragon wrote:When are taking back Iwan Stephens?

I dunno, when you get desperate for a new winger probably. If in doubt turn to the Prem academies to figure it out

mikey_dragon wrote:When are taking back Iwan Stephens?

Keep yer mits off....he's developing nicely up here.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:When are taking back Iwan Stephens?

I dunno, when you get desperate for a new winger probably. If in doubt turn to the Prem academies to figure it out

Turn to granny Facebook pages first, that’s what is known as scouting over there

BamBam wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:When are taking back Iwan Stephens?

I dunno, when you get desperate for a new winger probably. If in doubt turn to the Prem academies to figure it out

Turn to granny Facebook pages first, that’s what is known as scouting over there

English developed Welsh team is coming together. Odd that it's mainly backs and less forwards.

1. -
2. -
3. Francis
4. Rowlands
5. -
6. -
7. Reffell
8. -
9. -
10. Costelow
11. Stephens
12. Williams
13. Tompkins
14. Rees-Zammit
15. Adams (well Wuss would certainly claim him)

formerly known as Sam wrote:

BamBam wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:When are taking back Iwan Stephens?

I dunno, when you get desperate for a new winger probably. If in doubt turn to the Prem academies to figure it out

Turn to granny Facebook pages first, that’s what is known as scouting over there

English developed Welsh team is coming together. Odd that it's mainly backs and less forwards.

1. -
2. -
3. Francis
4. Rowlands
5. -
6. -
7. Reffell
8. -
9. -
10. Costelow
11. Stephens
12. Williams
13. Tompkins
14. Rees-Zammit
15. Adams (well Wuss would certainly claim him)

Could provide cover with Jonah Holmes? Possibly Callum Sheedy too? Maybe Ross Moriarty could slot into the back-row?

The prem does pretty well in producing players then. Can't say from the ones that qualified for England I'm that bothered about. Williams and Tompkins for me both should have been capped to stop them. Was a touch more bothered about Redpath to Scotland but he's making Tuilagi look robust.