England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

England look gassed. This should never happen.

Really important penalty from LCD. That could be the game if England can hold onto the ball

Look look look.

I think we’re failing to address the biggest issue here!

Why do Australians love a mullet so much?

God awful hairdo. On a par with Johnny Hill’s monstrosity

We've only had 30% possession in this half? That doesn't seem right.

England never rolling away and getting away with it. That turnover was basically a pile on and should have been a scrum not a penalty. Eddie jones was right about the speed of play. This match has been incredibly slow paced and the water breaks feel like they should accompany commercial breaks like they would in an NFL match.

tigertattie wrote:Look look look.

I think we’re failing to address the biggest issue here!

Why do Australians love a mullet so much?

God awful hairdo. On a par with Johnny Hill’s monstrosity

That's why we sent them all to Botany Bay

tigertattie wrote:Look look look.

I think we’re failing to address the biggest issue here!

Why do Australians love a mullet so much?

God awful hairdo. On a par with Johnny Hill’s monstrosity

There's two groups who love a mullet - bogans and private schools kids (of which there are many in Aus) who have gone their entire school life having strict hairstyle rules so go for the wildest haircut as soon as they leave!

And that’s the series

Fantastic to win down under again.  That is 2-0 so far southerners, how do you like them apples?

Well done England. Very close series. The North is dominant.

Well done England! 2/2 for the NH so far

Poorfour wrote:And that’s the series

Better to win, but this is not a team which will worry anyone serious in the RWC. Work to do.

Well that was a real anticlimax of a decider after 2 cracking tests
It's been a pretty dire few years for England so they'll take a huge amount from the series win. There's bigger issues still needing solved for EJ though.

As for Wallabies they had to deal with a massive number of injuries and distruption but have given it their all as is a hallmark of Dave Rennie's team over the last few years. They'll have learnt a few lessons on what real test rugby is in this series.

Well a win's a win but that was poor ...

RDW wrote:Well that was a real anticlimax of a decider after 2 cracking tests
It's been a pretty dire few years for England so they'll take a huge amount from the series win. There's bigger issues still needing solved for EJ though.

As for Wallabies they had to deal with a massive number of injuries and distruption but have given it their all as is a hallmark of Dave Rennie's team over the last few years. They'll have learnt a few lessons on what real test rugby is in this series.

Great point. Wallabies played great and tough Rugby. England were fortunate.

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:And that’s the series

Better to win, but this is not a team which will worry anyone serious in the RWC.  Work to do.

It’s not a team that will worry anyone… yet. But given how inexperienced it was and how many players were missing, it was a team that improved over the course of the series. You can see bits of what it is trying to do, and you can see what it could be with a full roster of players.

Eddie only really cares about the RWC, and will be quite happy if this team’s only complete performance is the RWC Final.

England's kicking game is really something to build on, and JVP needs to be given a proper run of games. The defence was also generally very good, as was the lineout platform.

They still look pretty confused what to do with the ball though and Marcus Smith has been a bit of a passenger in the 3 tests, albeit with a few nice touches.

They look a long way from being able to win a WC but the Wc is not being played for another year! Plenty young talent in there who will gain a lot of experience in the next year.

Any series down under is great. We weren't allowed to play as Aussies well up for it. We did enough and will get better, especially when our first choice backs become available. As for teams not fearing us, I'm happy to go under the radar for a bit. Touch fortunate the wallabies spurned a couple of good chances and ref despite his pre match talk didn't keep the game fast which would have suited Australia better. Some of the forward passes missed were alarming in this day and age but hey at least he decided that if the ball was available to play from the scrum then game on. Could have been a real bore fest if we kept having scrum resets.

Cumbrian wrote:I wonder if that could be the end of Danny's England career, that is a pretty brutal substitution (unless he is injured of course).

RIP Danny Care's test career. Was listening on BBC Five Live. Commentator notes Care's error, Monye blames everyone else and then he got subbed. Monye mumbled for about 30 seconds, felt a bit sorry for him after he'd bigged his mate up pre game.

Well done England.

By any sensible estimation, that is a successful tour. Got to see a number of new boys, stuttering and quite disjointed attack but still won the series. Big pluses were the set piece, the new and improved kicking game and discipline when it mattered.

All signs of a team on the up and more importantly, should help Eddie be a lot more consistent in selection (which he needs to be).

doctor_grey wrote:

RDW wrote:Well that was a real anticlimax of a decider after 2 cracking tests
It's been a pretty dire few years for England so they'll take a huge amount from the series win. There's bigger issues still needing solved for EJ though.

As for Wallabies they had to deal with a massive number of injuries and distruption but have given it their all as is a hallmark of Dave Rennie's team over the last few years. They'll have learnt a few lessons on what real test rugby is in this series.

Great point.  Wallabies  played great and tough Rugby.  England were fortunate.

England also had major disruptions with injuries.

To win the series without the players who pulled out with injury, also Youngs who wasnt going to tour, lose May, Itoje, Curry and Underhill during the tour, I think England can be quite proud of themselves.

I thought they would get beat 3-0 after that horrific Barbarians game, but the young players really stood up and made a name for themselves. Might be too soon for next year, but theres some real young talent there who mainly took their chances. Delighted with the win.

Well played England, you stook in and pulled it off and
got the series win. Some young players really coming through. England looking good going forward.

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

RDW wrote:Well that was a real anticlimax of a decider after 2 cracking tests
It's been a pretty dire few years for England so they'll take a huge amount from the series win. There's bigger issues still needing solved for EJ though.

As for Wallabies they had to deal with a massive number of injuries and distruption but have given it their all as is a hallmark of Dave Rennie's team over the last few years. They'll have learnt a few lessons on what real test rugby is in this series.

Great point.  Wallabies  played great and tough Rugby.  England were fortunate.

England also had major disruptions with injuries.

So did the Aussies, and for them, perhaps worse in total.

As I said during the game, most of the match looked like two mid-tier Premiership clubs having at it. Fairly mindless stuff. I am completely convinced England need to play with 15 players - specifically absent was an inside centre. Farrell wasn't bad at 12, but the combination - at least to me - isn't working. Restricting what the attack can do.

This series was supposed to be 100% about performance. Did we see a good performance from England? Not bits and pieces mind. but a good one?

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

RDW wrote:Well that was a real anticlimax of a decider after 2 cracking tests
It's been a pretty dire few years for England so they'll take a huge amount from the series win. There's bigger issues still needing solved for EJ though.

As for Wallabies they had to deal with a massive number of injuries and distruption but have given it their all as is a hallmark of Dave Rennie's team over the last few years. They'll have learnt a few lessons on what real test rugby is in this series.

Great point.  Wallabies  played great and tough Rugby.  England were fortunate.

England also had major disruptions with injuries.

So did the Aussies, and for them, perhaps worse in total.  

As I said during the game, most of the match looked like two mid-tier Premiership clubs having at it.  Fairly mindless stuff.  I am completely convinced England need to play with 15 players - specifically absent was an inside centre.  Farrell wasn't bad at 12, but the combination - at least to me - isn't working. Restricting what the attack can do.  

This series was supposed to be 100% about performance.  Did we see a good performance from England?  Not bits and pieces mind. but a good one?  

England were without a near full team - Marler, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, Dombrandt, Youngs, Ford, May, Tuilagi, Slade, Watson - probably 500 to 600 worth of caps, and still won today. Convincingly too. Not the best series, but the character and grit they showed, especially today, is very impressive.

Having not seen a minute of the entire series how were the overall performances of..

Stuart
Hill
Lawes
Cokasaniga
Steward

Did Dingwall play any part at all?

England were without a near full team - Marler, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, Dombrandt, Youngs, Ford, May, Tuilagi, Slade, Watson - probably 500 to 600 worth of caps, and still won today. Convincingly too. Not the best series, but the character and grit they showed, especially today, is very impressive.[/quote]

You could possibly add Simmonds, marchant, quirk to that list?

Somehow, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.  I didn't see that much which was good.  Some players played with energy, grit, and dedication, and were switched on for the most part:  Genge, Lawes, George/LCD, maybe Steward (certainly under kicks), Cheesum.  JVP came on and did well. Maybe Freeman too.  The rest, to me were just sucking up the SCG air and giving back nada.     And this was against a limited Aussie team.  I guess I really didn't see what most of you did.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Having not seen a minute of the entire series how were the overall performances of..

Stuart - So so. Not convinced he'd start for many Tier 1 nations at TH
Hill - Actually very good after the first test niggle.
Lawes - Superb
Cokasaniga - One ineffective (although not terrible) test, then dropped.
Steward - Superb

Did Dingwall play any part at all? Nope

There you go

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I wonder if that could be the end of Danny's England career, that is a pretty brutal substitution (unless he is injured of course).

RIP Danny Care's test career. Was listening on BBC Five Live. Commentator notes Care's error, Monye blames everyone else and then he got subbed. Monye mumbled for about 30 seconds, felt a bit sorry for him after he'd bigged his mate up pre game.

Could well be. Surely it'll be quirke and van Poortvliet going forward with Care as back up.

Reasonably easy win overall. Jones will be happy a few youngster played well but not sure too many foreqard steps were taken in the backs. Guess Kelly and Ojomoh come in during the AIs and hopefully we have another closer look at some wingers with out and out pace if Watson and May aren't available.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I wonder if that could be the end of Danny's England career, that is a pretty brutal substitution (unless he is injured of course).

RIP Danny Care's test career. Was listening on BBC Five Live. Commentator notes Care's error, Monye blames everyone else and then he got subbed. Monye mumbled for about 30 seconds, felt a bit sorry for him after he'd bigged his mate up pre game.

Could well be. Surely it'll be quirke and van Poortvliet going forward with Care as back up.

Doubt it. More likely Youngs gets parachuted back in with JVP and Quirke. Randall being dropped completely after the Baabaas game and then Care being hooked pre half time make it unlikely they'll make another squad. Maybe Mitchell will be revisited and get a go.

Care was dropped previously partly because Eddie didn't think he was particularly good at the game management aspect of the game. I've not seen it but going on what the radio was saying he had a mare. When the competition is 14 years younger than you and manages the game better it's a bad look.

Got to hope Quirke has finally managed to sort that knee out, it's been a problem for some time. He had something done last summer and then had surgery this summer. He's been playing with so much strapping on it and still looking a great all rounder despite his age. Free of the niggle he could kick on which is an interesting idea.

Shame for Care, but I thought he didn't play poorly, but didn't do much good either.  I think it is unfair to lay the blame for team's mostly 80 minute display of mediocre Rugby against a mediocre team on him.  JVP came in and certainly did more to get the team moving, and was solid and competent. His box kicks were more accurate as well.  

Who actually knows if Quirke has the goods at this level.  There is a lot of hope surrounding that kid.  Mitchell is going to need to get a run because we are running out of backup options.  The cupboard is not looking as full as it did a few months ago.

Chile have shocked the Americans, beating the USA in the USA to win 52-51 on aggregate, and it means that Chile will be in England's group next year.

Duty281 wrote:Chile have shocked the Americans, beating the USA in the USA to win 52-51 on aggregate, and it means that Chile will be in England's group next year.

No disrespect to Chile (cracking story that in and of itself) but the chips are falling very nicely with England's RWC draw.

France, SA, NZ and Ireland on the other side of the draw. Then a favourable group.

Obviously they could still muck it all up. For instance I've already spoken about how even with some poor recent performances I could see this group of players Argentina have coming good with a longer block of time together and some fitness luck.

Japan have some very good players but have lost several from 2019 as well. Luke Thompson retiring was a huge loss. As was Fukuoka - if he'd played for a more 6 Nations or Rugby Championship side he'd be an absolute star. Others that remain are aging now too. They aren't the same cohesive unit.

Samoa will be powerful (4.McFarland 5.Vui 6.Stowers 7.Taufua 8.Lee is very dynamic for instance) but have significant holes in their side as well.

It's a pretty favourable draw that will hopefully allow rotation through the group stages. There was a stark difference in energy in the final between some our forwards and the Boks forward who could be rotated and subbed after 45 minutes due to their obscene depth. Tom Curry had played 400 minutes in the RWC prior to final for instance. Etzebeth had played 263.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I wonder if that could be the end of Danny's England career, that is a pretty brutal substitution (unless he is injured of course).

RIP Danny Care's test career. Was listening on BBC Five Live. Commentator notes Care's error, Monye blames everyone else and then he got subbed. Monye mumbled for about 30 seconds, felt a bit sorry for him after he'd bigged his mate up pre game.

Could well be. Surely it'll be quirke and van Poortvliet going forward with Care as back up.

Doubt it. More likely Youngs gets parachuted back in with JVP and Quirke. Randall being dropped completely after the Baabaas game and then Care being hooked pre half time make it unlikely they'll make another squad. Maybe Mitchell will be revisited and get a go.

Care was dropped previously partly because Eddie didn't think he was particularly good at the game management aspect of the game. I've not seen it but going on what the radio was saying he had a mare. When the competition is 14 years younger than you and manages the game better it's a bad look.

Got to hope Quirke has finally managed to sort that knee out, it's been a problem for some time. He had something done last summer and then had surgery this summer. He's been playing with so much strapping on it and still looking a great all rounder despite his age. Free of the niggle he could kick on which is an interesting idea.

God I'd almost forgotten about Youngs. Depressing thought.

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Chile have shocked the Americans, beating the USA in the USA to win 52-51 on aggregate, and it means that Chile will be in England's group next year.

No disrespect to Chile (cracking story that in and of itself) but the chips are falling very nicely with England's RWC draw.

France, SA, NZ and Ireland on the other side of the draw. Then a favourable group.

Obviously they could still muck it all up. For instance I've already spoken about how even with some poor recent performances I could see this group of players Argentina have coming good with a longer block of time together and some fitness luck.

Japan have some very good players but have lost several from 2019 as well. Luke Thompson retiring was a huge loss. As was Fukuoka - if he'd played for a more 6 Nations or Rugby Championship side he'd be an absolute star. Others that remain are aging now too. They aren't the same cohesive unit.

Samoa will be powerful (4.McFarland 5.Vui 6.Stowers 7.Taufua 8.Lee is very dynamic for instance) but have significant holes in their side as well.

It's a pretty favourable draw that will hopefully allow rotation through the group stages. There was a stark difference in energy in the final between some our forwards and the Boks forward who could be rotated and subbed after 45 minutes due to their obscene depth. Tom Curry had played 400 minutes in the RWC prior to final for instance. Etzebeth had played 263.

First debutant team for 12 years too and it does look a good draw for us.

doctor_grey wrote:Shame for Care, but I thought he didn't play poorly, but didn't do much good either.  I think it is unfair to lay the blame for team's mostly 80 minute display of mediocre Rugby against a mediocre team on him.  JVP came in and certainly did more to get the team moving, and was solid and competent. His box kicks were more accurate as well.  

Who actually knows if Quirke has the goods at this level.  There is a lot of hope surrounding that kid.  Mitchell is going to need to get a run because we are running out of backup options.  The cupboard is not looking as full as it did a few months ago.

Recalling Care was a bit of a desperation move to begin with. We knew his weaknesses didn't tally with the strengths Eddie likes to see at 9 but his form has been consistently good so it was worth the roll of the dice.

Mitchell if he gets a good pre season under his belt could come back in the AIs as make his mark.

Randall could still re-emerge I suppose but it's not looking too good for him at the minute with Eddie opting for JVP over him when most though Randall was the man in possession of the shirt.

9 still the problem position but at least we have a new young option we know can handle the pressure at this level.

If JvP and Quirke are the two 9s in the 23 for the RWC I'll be very happy despite their relative lack of experience. Curry only had 13 caps at the start of the 2019 RWC and that included three warmups. Curry was superb in that tournament. JvP or Quirke could reach a similar number.

I've said for a while that I thought Youngs ideally needed moving on from but I consistently disagreed that there were obvious replacements ready as I didn't rate some other potential 9s as highly as other fans here do (or maybe did now...).

Care has always had the same significant strengths but also obvious holes in his game. I've discussed several times how I didn't really think Care had ironed out those flaws as others suggested. I think he's kept his strengths as strong and flaws as weak despite being 36 which in itself is remarkable. Usually as players age the strengths get less prominent and weaknesses get more prominent. But I never really saw a reborn player who had finally fixed his flaws. In the opposition 22 with his team in possession Care can still be superb but in most other areas and when his team aren't in possession he's not nearly as strong.

Randall is a player I really like but I think the lack of length on his kicks could always be an issue in international rugby. Mitchell I rate highly but not quite as highly as JvP and Quirke. Those two look like long term internationals to me due to their very rounded skill sets, how quickly they have settled and then continued improving since coming into senior rugby.

I always thought Mitchell did well when he played for England before, although he was playing like he knew he'd probably never get the chance again and was determined to make the most of it. Randall has always felt like a stopgap.

https://twitter.com/adampeacock3/status/1548473286996426752?t=htPJLXTIN3O4N_di-Qj6JQ&s=19

I hope this guy is having a terrible day.

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://twitter.com/adampeacock3/status/1548473286996426752?t=htPJLXTIN3O4N_di-Qj6JQ&s=19

I hope this guy is having a terrible day.

Eddie simply cannot go off in that situation. That high level of self-restraint goes along with the position and the salary.

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://twitter.com/adampeacock3/status/1548473286996426752?t=htPJLXTIN3O4N_di-Qj6JQ&s=19

I hope this guy is having a terrible day.

It's a fair comment to make.

I always thought "sledging" was part and parcel of Oz sport. Surely Mr Jones should expect a level of verbal abuse from his fellow countrymen and be sensible enough to let it slide.
Guess it shows the kind of pressure he feels under at the moment.

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://twitter.com/adampeacock3/status/1548473286996426752?t=htPJLXTIN3O4N_di-Qj6JQ&s=19

I hope this guy is having a terrible day.

If you're going to shout stuff from the sidelines don't be surprised if you get called out by the person you're shouting it at. Eddie's been heckled a lot previously and tended to respond pretty well but maybe he's taken more stick than usual recently and just had enough.

Well Eddie likes to give it out a lot, it’s only reasonable he takes some back. Eddie usually leaves it for press conferences though, where he usually blames the ref.

Congratulations on the series win

Galted wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://twitter.com/adampeacock3/status/1548473286996426752?t=htPJLXTIN3O4N_di-Qj6JQ&s=19

I hope this guy is having a terrible day.

It's a fair comment to make.

Not sure it is.

sensisball wrote:I always thought "sledging" was part and parcel of Oz sport. Surely Mr Jones should expect a level of verbal abuse from his fellow countrymen and be sensible enough to let it slide.
Guess it shows the kind of pressure he feels under at the moment.

2 1 win in australia, would suggest he's not under much pressure.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well Eddie likes to give it out a lot, it’s only reasonable he takes some back. Eddie usually leaves it for press conferences though, where he usually blames the ref.

Congratulations on the series win

And congrats on the consolation vs the b team.

You don't think EJ is under some kind or pressure? I did not know Steward was playing on Saturday in violation of agreed game limit standards until now.  This should not be allowed (though as is typical in Rugby every rule has an exception):  

The Times, Thursday July 14 2022, 11.59pm BST:
Eddie Jones has picked Freddie Steward for the deciding third Test between England and Australia despite the full back having already exceeded the agreed number of competitive minutes set for players this season.  

This was known before the game and is unacceptable.  EJ made the move to save his ass.  Steward's health v. EJ's job.  And if indeed the RFU signed off on this then all the verbal diarrhea about player welfare and safety is just diarrhea.  

This is not about Steward who is tough and did his job well.  It is about malfeasance and a lack or responsibility.  If Steward got hurt there would be hell to pay.  Rightfully so.