England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

As Argentina and Japan are in our RWC group this time next year I expect those two games will be viewed as more significant than they sometimes would in an AI series with the ABs and Boks to follow.

I'd be really excited to see a side such as below.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Tizard 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.JvP 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Freeman 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Chessum 20.Willis 21.Youngs 22.Slade 23.Arundell

From reading a few reports it sounds like Lawes and Itoje's ailments aren't serious which is terrific news. It's actually a fairly good bill of health for the squad as a whole as things stand. Underhill and Watson being the obvious absentees.

yappysnap wrote:Just as a reminder we'll be playing:

Argentina
Japan
New Zealand
South Africa

i'd love to see some of the youngsters come off the bench against Arg and then start against Japan.

I know we talk about wanting consistency of selection but the bulk of this squad will be players who've played every campaign since the last RWC, we need to keep playing the young talent too.

That is still some challenging run of games. We will need all the depth, methinks....

king_carlos wrote:As Argentina and Japan are in our RWC group this time next year I expect those two games will be viewed as more significant than they sometimes would in an AI series with the ABs and Boks to follow.

I'd be really excited to see a side such as below.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Tizard 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.JvP 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Freeman 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Chessum 20.Willis 21.Youngs 22.Slade 23.Arundell

From reading a few reports it sounds like Lawes and Itoje's ailments aren't serious which is terrific news. It's actually a fairly good bill of health for the squad as a whole as things stand. Underhill and Watson being the obvious absentees.

I like that team, but is a lot not being expected of Tizard to start? Apart from the silliness in the first test, Johnny Hill played well in the other two this summer - especially without Itoje for most of those games. Slade and Arundell as backs replacements is a great shout - all covered there from 10 to 15, with both covering full back but very different options.

yappysnap wrote:Just as a reminder we'll be playing:

Argentina
Japan
New Zealand
South Africa

i'd love to see some of the youngsters come off the bench against Arg and then start against Japan.

I know we talk about wanting consistency of selection but the bulk of this squad will be players who've played every campaign since the last RWC, we need to keep playing the young talent too.

He'll be trying to replicate a run to the WC final so I would expect to see changes between every gane.

Im honestly done seeing Manus name on every England teamsheet...only for him to be withdrawn.

Time to move on! Give Marchant the 13 spot once and for all or if you want more physical presence...Northmore for example.

It's annoying if we miss Tuilagi. But he is streets ahead of most centres in the world.

But hes never fit or avauilable 7.5...

We need to stop flogging a dead horse and now look to one of the young guys who are pulling up trees in the prem...like Marchant. I have no idea why Jones F*%ks about with him...play him at 13 and let him cause carnage!

And when he is we're miles better and win more matches. Would I prefer the next games for Tuilagi to play 3 or 0. 3 all day, every day and twice on Sundays. If we look to the prem fair enough, Marchant is playing on the wing for Harlequins.

When was that when Manu last put smiles on our faces 7.5?

Quins probably at the instruction from Eddie.

The world cup probably when he helped us to the final. Probably the last time I did have a smile on my face watching England. Well if it's Jones instructions to play Marchant on the wing that tells you what you need to know about him playing 13 for England. My depression over England centres comes not from Tuilagi but the bang average Slade. And I don't particularly mind bang average if it helps the team overall, Slade does not however help anything.

3 years ago he put a smile on our face is a long time to be "hoping" he might stay fit.

Look 7.5 i would LOVE to have Manu fit and at 13 (or 12) hes an absolute beast...and as you rightly say one of the best in the world when fit and on form. He can do things so many cant....however he just cant stay fit...

As to Marchant...i just dont get this move to the wing. Hes a brilliant 13 who makes things happen...and has a genuine rugby brain. Play him the and have wingers who can feed off him.

i agree Slade has been an issue...but i think thats being addressed now...hes on the way out.

And in the meantime no one else has. I get you want someone deemed less of a risk, but as long as he's that much better than everyone else, i'd still want him there.

Would love Slade to be gone...but he'll be in the AIs if fit. As will Youngs.

I'm more confident that Daly and Malins are gone.

Yes noone has really stood out in the centre. We're missing a 12 big time (farrell has done a job)

Slade was the big hope many years ago and Jones has tried him. He hasnt failed per se, just hasnt performed as many had hoped. But then Jones wants a different type of player at 13 than what Marchant is.

We have a clutch of 12s and 13's coming through now though...so post WC...there'll be considerable changes, depending on what the new coach wants.

Yeah, I'm resigned now that Jones will be Jones. He's never been afraid to try youngsters but for whatever reason there's a host who have never been given a couple of games or even a bench appearance here and there. TBH the more I watch Leicester and the next England coach (lets face it), the less optimistic I am of it getting better from a spectacle pov too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And in the meantime no one else has. I get you want someone deemed less of a risk, but as long as he's that much better than everyone else, i'd still want him there.

Would love Slade to be gone...but he'll be in the AIs if fit. As will Youngs.

I'm more confident that Daly and Malins are gone.

Agree that Daly still isnt up to his old England form, but thought that Malins was doing well when given a chance.

The slight to Marchant is an odd one to me - I thought that he took his chances really well. Perhaps this is Eddie mind games, trying to give him that extra boost of motivation!

I don't know quite what Eddie is doing with Marchant. Being Eddie, it's very possible that he thinks that by telling him to go and work on things he can drive him to a higher ceiling.

I'm inclined to agree with Gatland's view that Smith isn't yet playing to his full potential at international level, but as he adapts to the speed of the game he will get there. When he does, I want Marchant in the side, because I think he is the player best placed to take the oppotunities Smith will create.

Poor four,
What's your thoughts on Anwanyu...and where his potential ceiling is. Im genuinely excited by the potential that young fella has....

Poorfour wrote:I don't know quite what Eddie is doing with Marchant. Being Eddie, it's very possible that he thinks that by telling him to go and work on things he can drive him to a higher ceiling.

I'm inclined to agree with Gatland's view that Smith isn't yet playing to his full potential at international level, but as he adapts to the speed of the game he will get there. When he does, I want Marchant in the side, because I think he is the player best placed to take the oppotunities Smith will create.

I agree that Smith hasn't quite got there yet but with his talent he will. Over the summer I thought we saw a swift improvement in that tendency from the Six Nations to play too flat against much stronger international defences. I like the potential of the Smith-Farrell partnership though I know many don't.

I'm a big Marchant fan but I wouldn't say he's pulled trees up with England yet. He got three starts at 13 in the Six Nations, the Baabaas and T1 in Oz as well so not exactly a complete lack of opportunities.

It's a bit of stretch that he's playing wing at England's bequest either I think. Quins just have depth and quality at centre with relatively few (albeit very strong) back three options and Lynagh injured don't they?

Only 3 starts KC , how many has Jones persevered with Slade at 13 when not failing yet not really pulling up trees either...

5 starts at 13 in a season there, Geordie.

Slade whilst very inconsistent in attack for England has been absolutely fantastic defensively at 13 being the key difference there though. Marchant isn't weak defensively but isn't in the same class as Slade. It's regarded as the toughest position to defend in the modern game for a reason and Slade is truly excellent there. Probably on par with JJ at his peak. He doesn't have JJs pace which he used to be able to blitz so aggressively in Gustard defensive system whilst still having the pace to cover the outside arc. Slade's more physical in the tackle though, whilst his own positioning and organisation of the defence from that key position are excellent. He's a player I've criticised about as much as any for other reasons but defensively Slade is a rock.

I rate Marchant very highly and have for a long time. Going back to 2019 RWC warmups where Marchant was capped I remember discussing with LondonTiger (a much missed 606v2 stalwart there!) that getting him tied to England was vital going forward. I wouldn't say he's consistently shone in any aspect yet though.

For sake of argument for instance I'd say that Daly's performance at 13 against Wales was probably better than any Marchant's 3 starts in the tournament. Neither offered much threat in attack as England stuttered but Daly was genuinely very good defensively against Wales making a couple of dominant hits including that very good read at the end of the first half to end a Wales attack. I'm not saying I want Daly at 13 at all mind. Just pointing out that one of England's most maligned players IMO outperformed Marchant's showing in any of his games at 13 this season.

One thing I love about Marchant is his ability contesting high balls though. In Steward and Marchant there are two guys that are excellent at contesting in the air. Putting well weighted bombs up with two players such as that both chasing to compete is a simple but potentially very effective means of trying manufacture what are basically turnover attacking opportunities in broken field.

Geordie wrote:Poor four,
What's your thoughts on Anwanyu...and where his potential ceiling is. Im genuinely excited by the potential that young fella has....

Anyanwu's got potential, but I'm struggling to judge how high it goes. What's exciting is that he combines the reading of the game that created his try at Newcastle with a decent amount of power and reasonable pace. The question mark is that he's played mostly at 13 but is now being asked to convert to 12. He's been thrown in a bit at the deep end with matches against Sarries and Exeter, did OK in the first and by all accounts (I've not seen the game) had a poor game at Sandy Park.

I think we need to see how he goes this season as understudy to Andre Esterhuizen, and in particular how his decision making improves and whether he can develop the sort of power that would make him a regular line breaker. Quins clearly rate him and are backing him - they allowed Huw Jones to leave, who'd been a great addition to the squad and was the other obvious option at 12, so I think they must feel Anyanwu is ready to step up.

There's also the likes of Hayden Hyde, who is also coming up through the Quins ranks and I think can also play 12 or 13. There's a potnetial future for Quins where the two of them play interchangeably in the centres.

Malins moving to Bristol with the intention apparently of playing at full back. Not sure if that particularly impacts his England chances, as I've said I think they're gone with the emergence of others, but signals he doesn't really want to play wing.

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:Poor four,
What's your thoughts on Anwanyu...and where his potential ceiling is. Im genuinely excited by the potential that young fella has....

Anyanwu's got potential, but I'm struggling to judge how high it goes. What's exciting is that he combines the reading of the game that created his try at Newcastle with a decent amount of power and reasonable pace. The question mark is that he's played mostly at 13 but is now being asked to convert to 12. He's been thrown in a bit at the deep end with matches against Sarries and Exeter, did OK in the first and by all accounts (I've not seen the game) had a poor game at Sandy Park.

I think we need to see how he goes this season as understudy to Andre Esterhuizen, and in particular how his decision making improves and whether he can develop the sort of power that would make him a regular line breaker. Quins clearly rate him and are backing him - they allowed Huw Jones to leave, who'd been a great addition to the squad and was the other obvious option at 12, so I think they must feel Anyanwu is ready to step up.

There's also the likes of Hayden Hyde, who is also coming up through the Quins ranks and I think can also play 12 or 13. There's a potnetial future for Quins where the two of them play interchangeably in the centres.

He made 2 big errors in the first half but showed strong mentality that he didnt drop his had and had a good second half.

He looks like he has all the tools..pace, power, passing, kicking and a rugby brain. It'll be very interesting to see if he can combine it and take his game above prem level...

In regards to other young centres, I quite liked the look of Olly Hartley for Wasps against Leicester in the cup the other night. Obviously it was a step down and he was playing out of position, but he seemed to really have something about him.

Theres defo a few comin through now who should be getting looked at post World Cup i would say.

Geordie wrote:Theres defo a few comin through now who should be getting looked at post World Cup i would say.

Agreed - it would be a big surprise if one of them broke in ahead of the RWC, but there's an interesting decision ahead for Eddie's successor about how to configure the midfield.

Re: Marchant, he hasn't translated his Quins form to England yet, but given he's only had a handful of starts and has been flipped between centre and wing we have to be careful comparing him with Daly and Slade, who both have around 50 caps. That said, Eddie seems to have asked both Marchant and Dombrandt to play different roles than they do at club level and they've both looked quite tentative while doing so.

Marchant's different defensively from both Slade and Daly; he's smaller and lighter so he's not going to make as many dominant hits. His positional play and speed still makes him a decent defender. But what he'll offer is a different level of vision in attack. Quirke's try against SA last autumn was a good example. The defenders lost their shape because they were keeping an eye on Smith running behind the line, and Marchant saw the gap and made the break. I don't think there are many players who make better decisions about how to react to a changing situation (also seen in how he handles a loose ball or one heading for the touchline) in attack or transition.

io just cant see anyone moving Farrell from that spot at the moment.

But i do like the look of Kelly at Tigers aswell. He could "possibly" go to the WC if he has a good season.

Geordie wrote:io just cant see anyone moving Farrell from that spot at the moment.

But i do like the look of Kelly at Tigers aswell. He could "possibly" go to the WC if he has a good season.

Right now, yes. But Farrell is 31 (how did that happen?), and will be 36 by the time the next RWC comes around. While he seems to be in pretty decent shape and not injury prone, I can see Eddie’s successor wanting to start the transition to the next generation of players in time to have midfield options with a decent level of experience.

Post WC absolutely, but at the moment Farrell isnt going anywhere.

We "should" have some very good options at 12 (and 13) at that stage...for the new guy to work with.

king_carlos wrote:5 starts at 13 in a season there, Geordie.

Slade whilst very inconsistent in attack for England has been absolutely fantastic defensively at 13 being the key difference there though. Marchant isn't weak defensively but isn't in the same class as Slade. It's regarded as the toughest position to defend in the modern game for a reason and Slade is truly excellent there. Probably on par with JJ at his peak. He doesn't have JJs pace which he used to be able to blitz so aggressively in Gustard defensive system whilst still having the pace to cover the outside arc. Slade's more physical in the tackle though, whilst his own positioning and organisation of the defence from that key position are excellent. He's a player I've criticised about as much as any for other reasons but defensively Slade is a rock.

I rate Marchant very highly and have for a long time. Going back to 2019 RWC warmups where Marchant was capped I remember discussing with LondonTiger (a much missed 606v2 stalwart there!) that getting him tied to England was vital going forward. I wouldn't say he's consistently shone in any aspect yet though.

For sake of argument for instance I'd say that Daly's performance at 13 against Wales was probably better than any Marchant's 3 starts in the tournament. Neither offered much threat in attack as England stuttered but Daly was genuinely very good defensively against Wales making a couple of dominant hits including that very good read at the end of the first half to end a Wales attack. I'm not saying I want Daly at 13 at all mind. Just pointing out that one of England's most maligned players IMO outperformed Marchant's showing in any of his games at 13 this season.

One thing I love about Marchant is his ability contesting high balls though. In Steward and Marchant there are two guys that are excellent at contesting in the air. Putting well weighted bombs up with two players such as that both chasing to compete is a simple but potentially very effective means of trying manufacture what are basically turnover attacking opportunities in broken field.

With May and / or Freeman we have a lot of players who are excellent at both fielding high balls and getting under them in a chase and challenging effectively. Freeman has one thing the others don't have size and pace, the others have one or the other.

Watching the Falcons match and Sinkler just looks awful at the moment, he just doesn't look interested. It is quite concerning from and England point of view.

Sinkler had been awful since he left quins.

Work on Stuart and Heyes

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know it's a training squad, may mean nothing come the competitive games in the autumn but is there anyone people are hoping to see get a foot on the ladder in a little while?

For me I'd love to see Alo, Anyanwu and Cokanasiga (the younger in there) in terms of uncapped guys. I'm still not sold on Murley but reckon he'll be there. Surprise inclusions anyone?

Great test today for Phil C against the settled and fantastic midfield of Farrell-Tompkins-Lozowski. It's a noticeably rotated (though certainly not weak!) Tigers XV as well. He's been impressive so far given his relative lack of game time. I hope he goes well but it's by a mile the biggest test he's had so far with Tigers missing Kelly, Porter and Matt Scott.

He was pretty good in what he had to do yesterday. Got shocking service but showed a bit of power, very nice footwork. Made the right choices most of the time.

Porter George and walker out. Radwan, mcguigan and Singleton in.

Manu just cannot be relied on to be fit but as we all know Jones will pick him if he is anywhere near able to hobble onto field.
Slade just isn't doing it, was poor/mediocre last 6N.
Agree what others have said about Marchant, he should be England 13. Farrell almost certainly be 12 if Smith 10.
God help us if Youngs still at 9. FFS.

As for post RWC, Jones be gone then so whoever is next Eng coach hopefully will pick on form and fitness.

interesting Radwan got call up as injury replacement, something I was hoping for. Fingers crossed he gets chance.

i think Murley is unlucky not to be called up. Hes quite a young player.

Who ever takes over from Jones is going to have some good young players coming through in positions we been struggling for, for years.

Due to the various injuries there have been a lot of hookers around the squads recently.

George
LCD
Blamire

Those are clearly the first three for the coaches. Then all of below have been involved in at least training squads by my count:

Dolly
Walker
McGuigan
Singleton
Oghre

Tom Dunn out in the cold since the Autumn Nations Cup.

2 games against Wales and 1 against Fiji confirmed as WC warmups. A 3rd opponent yet to be agreed.

RWC warmups tend to be used more for match sharpness than much in terms of tactics or partnerships so the opponents there aren't massively important. There tend to be the odd mismatch as sides rotate at different times too. If for instance one side has their toughest two pool games in rounds 1 and 2 they might rotate for the final warmup.

Wales in a way are a good one though as Beard will test our sometimes creaky lineout in attack and defence. Whilst Biggar, Sanjay and their various strong 9s are good opponents in the kicking battle that England rely on.

During the last warmups we did see Marchant capped having burst into the wider training squads though so there's always opportunity there. McConnochie made a late run into the RWC squad as well of course.

Many here don't rate him but in his early season performances Daly is looking as close to his best as I've seen since 2018/19 as well. I wouldn't pick him at 15 (Steward and Arundell look set for a long battle there) but his best for England was very good indeed, especially in attack where we really need things to click. If he keeps this up I think Daly will challenge for a place in the squad as a winger who covers 13.

At a push I wouldn't mind Daly as the multi position cover, prefer him to Furbank. It's just there are better full back, wingers and centres than him as first choice. His attack looks good with this looser Saracens approach but it seemed to me more pressure got to him for England when he any decision to make rather than when he was a wing and it was pretty much pin your ears back and run.

George confirmed as out of the AIs. BBC:

'Saracens hooker Jamie George will miss England's autumn internationals after being sidelined by injury.

George - who turns 32 later this month - sustained a foot injury in Sarries' thumping win over Leicester Tigers on Saturday.

A club statement said: "It is expected that he will be out for around 10 weeks, returning in early December."

England are due to host Argentina in their opening autumn international at Twickenham on 6 November.

Eddie Jones' side will then entertain Japan, New Zealand and world champions South Africa on the following three weekends.

George made his first start for England in November 2017 and has won 69 caps.

He was one of three players to withdraw from a three-day England training camp in London along with Leicester centre Guy Porter and Harlequins' Jack Walker.

Newcastle duo George McGuigan and Adam Radwan, and Gloucester's Jack Singleton have been called up as replacements.

England already had a long injury list before these latest withdrawals, with the likes of Saracens lock Maro Itoje, Harlequins number eight Alex Dombrandt, and Leicester wing Anthony Watson all currently sidelined.'

If England are going to have injuries, there's a potential silver lining in having them now as it gives other players a chance to gain experience while it may mean that the injured players are fresher towards the end of what will be a very long season.

Makes the backup hooker position interesting, given Blamire seems to have been playing in the backrow recently. Hope LCD stays fit for a change

No 7&1/2 wrote:At a push I wouldn't mind Daly as the multi position cover, prefer him to Furbank. It's just there are better full back, wingers and centres than him as first choice. His attack looks good with this looser Saracens approach but it seemed to me more pressure got to him for England when he any decision to make rather than when he was a wing and it was pretty much pin your ears back and run.

As a wing I'd probably put Daly behind only May, Watson and Freeman - who I really rate. I'd say he's on par with Nowell albeit with different strengths.

At Daly's peak and when England's attack was functioning near it's best he was fantastic at making the right decisions under pressure. When Daly was acting as a distributor in the wider channels England's attack looked fantastic. After the 2019 RWC he had a dire season filled with unforced errors and poor handling whilst England were absolute pish. At his best though, he's starting to show it for Sarries now, his decision making in attack was excellent.

lostinwales wrote:Makes the backup hooker position interesting, given Blamire seems to have been playing in the backrow recently. Hope LCD stays fit for a change

Blamire's only playing back row because of Falcons' injury crisis there, according to Dave Walder.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Makes the backup hooker position interesting, given Blamire seems to have been playing in the backrow recently. Hope LCD stays fit for a change

Blamire's only playing back row because of Falcons' injury crisis there, according to Dave Walder.

A bit like Ted Hill playing one game at lock for Wuss due to injuries and then there was still mention of his conversion to second row a year later...

i see Jones is reported in a press conference when asked why Marchant was not in the squad...that he had a ‘disappointing’ tour and has some aspects of his game to ‘work on’.

Really? Maybe its a good thing that Jones tenure is coming to an end soon.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Makes the backup hooker position interesting, given Blamire seems to have been playing in the backrow recently. Hope LCD stays fit for a change

Blamire's only playing back row because of Falcons' injury crisis there, according to Dave Walder.

Yeah Dave Walder has been very clear that Blamire is a hooker who is doing his service to the club covering flanker. PS it should be noted that his performances have been very good...especially in his usual explosive around the park aspects.

Anyway Jones likes hybrid players...so hes perfect.