England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

by formerly known as Sam Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:22 am

First topic message reminder :

sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

by formerly known as Sam Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:23 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Makes the backup hooker position interesting, given Blamire seems to have been playing in the backrow recently. Hope LCD stays fit for a change

Blamire's only playing back row because of Falcons' injury crisis there, according to Dave Walder.

A bit like Ted Hill playing one game at lock for Wuss due to injuries and then there was still mention of his conversion to second row a year later...

That was probably hyped by Eddie naming him in the summer friendlies in the 19 shirt and subbing him into the row. He was clearly after a hybrid player to play back up to Lawes.

by king_carlos Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:50 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Makes the backup hooker position interesting, given Blamire seems to have been playing in the backrow recently. Hope LCD stays fit for a change

Blamire's only playing back row because of Falcons' injury crisis there, according to Dave Walder.

A bit like Ted Hill playing one game at lock for Wuss due to injuries and then there was still mention of his conversion to second row a year later...

That was probably hyped by Eddie naming him in the summer friendlies in the 19 shirt and subbing him into the row. He was clearly after a hybrid player to play back up to Lawes.

Or we just had so many second rows unavailable between injuries and the Lions that they decided it was better to have a back row involved who they thought might feature down the line. Worth remembering that the locks in those summer tests were Ewels, Wells and McNally. All good players in their own rights but hardly gun international second rows!

by No 7&1/2 Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:49 pm

I think the growing obsession with the WC is increasing the search for genuine multi positional players akin to when the benches were smaller. I'm really not sure how often though the small ish squads at WC really mean that it's a key thing. We've got a few flankers who have covered 8 and obviously he was using Dombrandt at 6 when Simmonds came on a couple of times so I think the Ted Hill experiment is over for now at lock.

by doctor_grey Sat Oct 08, 2022 7:05 am

I agree the flexibility where players can play has been increasing, and I agree the WC has probably given it a push. But I think it was always important. With every game almost a career maker for many coaches, especially at international level, the increased flexibility gives them more options for the starting XV and the bench.

To your point, there were always 8s who played 6. But now much more second row/flanker (usually blind side) hybrids.
Many 10s also played at either 12 or 15. But I think we are seeing a bit more flexibility in the centres. Rory Hutchinson, a natural 12, has started at 12 and 15 for Saints and Scotland. Elliott Daly at 13, wing and fullback for club and England. Back three have always covered each other.

I would trade all of that for a hard running centre not named Tuilagi...

by Poorfour Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:25 am

There are a few candidates coming through at centre - Kelly once back to full fitness, and while it’s early days for Anyanwu he’s got an interesting mix of skills. He’s not as powerful as Tuilagi, but he’s also got the vision, kicking and distribution to challenge defences in other ways. If he can stay fit, work on his decision-making and learn to choose late while disguising what he’s going to do, he could be a real handful.

by Geordie Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:59 pm

Didn't see the game but apparently ollie Lawrence was good this weekend was that correct?

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:47 pm

On the question of players who can fill more than one position, there's a matter specific to the World Cup which adds to their general value.

A replacement can only be called up to the squad, when another players leaves. For serious injuries, the decision is obvious. However, you might have a case where an important player can't play for a couple of games, but should recover for later matches.

There will always be one other player who can cover that role but he might turn an ankle during a match, which means you'll need a third choice. That's when players who can cover more than one position are gold.

by Poorfour Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:37 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:On the question of players who can fill more than one position, there's a matter specific to the World Cup which adds to their general value.

A replacement can only be called up to the squad, when another players leaves. For serious injuries, the decision is obvious. However, you might have a case where an important player can't play for a couple of games, but should recover for later matches.

There will always be one other player who can cover that role but he might turn an ankle during a match, which means you'll need a third choice. That's when players who can cover more than one position are gold.

Added to that, the squad sizes this time around are slightly smaller, and England have a comparatively easy pool. I suspect Eddie's thinking is that England's jacks of all trades will have enough to win the pool stages so he can buy time to deal with any injuries to the specialists.

by yappysnap Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:41 pm

Why are the squad sizes smaller? Surely with more awareness of injuries on players, slightly larger squads and more opportunity to rest players would be preferred.

by Poorfour Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:58 am

yappysnap wrote:Why are the squad sizes smaller? Surely with more awareness of injuries on players, slightly larger squads and more opportunity to rest players would be preferred.

Sorry - I got it wrong. Squad sizes are up from 31 to 33 players. It still means that you need some multi-position players if you want to take 3 full front rows and 3 pairs or halfbacks.

by king_carlos Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:26 pm

I didn't realise it had gone up to 33 players. That's interesting, changes balance in the squad. I think that's a good move with how physical the game is now. As said it means you can basically have 3 LHs, THs, hookers and scrum-halves. As opposed to the 31 players which meant many sides were light in a couple of those specialist positions.

England for instance with only 2 scrum-halves and Marler training at TH in case of emergency.

by king_carlos Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:32 pm

Interesting that there seems to be a bit of chatter around Dan Cole. Since working under Aled Walters (former Boks head of S&C, now with Tigers) he seems in incredible shape physically. His defensive work and carrying are as good as I've seen them in years. I'd probably still rate him the best scrummaging TH in England as well.

When England moved on from him after 2019 I thought it was a fair call as I did think Coley had slowed down a bit in the loose whilst the game had sped up. Over the last couple of years his performances have been very good and consistent again though.

by formerly known as Sam Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:43 pm

king_carlos wrote:Interesting that there seems to be a bit of chatter around Dan Cole. Since working under Aled Walters (former Boks head of S&C, now with Tigers) he seems in incredible shape physically. His defensive work and carrying are as good as I've seen them in years. I'd probably still rate him the best scrummaging TH in England as well.

When England moved on from him after 2019 I thought it was a fair call as I did think Coley had slowed down a bit in the loose whilst the game had sped up. Over the last couple of years his performances have been very good and consistent again though.

Man of the match Vs Saints and regularly leading the kick chase. Walters really has helped give him a new lease of life, Borthwick rotating him with Heyes more regularly has helped as well.

by king_carlos Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:21 pm

Joe Marchant apparently in talks to go to Stade Francais. Perhaps why he's out the picture?

NH contracts usually begin July 1st I believe so would presumably rule him out the RWC if he's at Stade next season.

by doctor_grey Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:26 pm

king_carlos wrote:Joe Marchant apparently in talks to go to Stade Francais. Perhaps why he's out the picture?

NH contracts usually begin July 1st I believe so would presumably rule him out the RWC if he's at Stade next season.

Hard to know whether he is looking to France because he thinks he will be left out of the RWC squad or not. He is a good player. He can always negotiate a club contract in France to begin after the RWC.

by Poorfour Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:01 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Joe Marchant apparently in talks to go to Stade Francais. Perhaps why he's out the picture?

NH contracts usually begin July 1st I believe so would presumably rule him out the RWC if he's at Stade next season.
Hard to know whether he is looking to France because he thinks he will be left out of the RWC squad or not. He is a good player. He can always negotiate a club contract in France to begin after the RWC.

I'm hoping this is just the usual agent's talk to give him negotiating leverage with Quins, but if he does go it's a bit of an odd time to do it. Eddie's on his way after the RWC, so if Marchant has any remaining England ambitions (and I think he should), it would make sense to be eligible for whoever replaces him. That said, he's wanted to experience different rugby cultures, so his aim may be to spend a year or two abroad before returning to make a run for the next RWC. That said, by 2027 he'll be 31 so it seems odd to be out of contention for two of his prime playing years.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:15 pm

Randall out of the AIs so surely its Quirke, vP and (sigh) Youngs.

by mountain man Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Randall out of the AIs so surely its Quirke, vP and (sigh) Youngs.

Unfortunately most likely. Do we assume Care has had his final chance? He didnt impress against Aus last Test but I'd pick him over Youngs every day. (I know he's not in AI squad).
JvP has to be first choice surely.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:21 pm

It's between what Jones wants and what would seem sensible. I have little doubt that as he's a good servant and a yes (of course I will kick it) man Youngs will remain first choice. Form has very little to do with it. If it were me I'd have vP, Quirke and Mitchell battling it out. I think Quirke is the 1 I'd start but all have great games.

by Mr Bounce Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:46 pm

Quirke looked good in his appearance back for Sale last weekend. I think that Jones has seen enough of JVP to know that he's good enough, yet for some reason he seems to rate Randall above Mitchell. Will we see Youngs cast out in the way Robshaw was before the World Cup, or will Jones stubbornly pick his seeming favourite 9 who's probably 2 or 3 years past his best?

I just don't understand Jones' obsession with Youngs. Yes, he's very experienced and has been a great servant for England, but he's 104 now and has about 3 million caps. Surely it's time for his England career to be done? He is not the player he once was.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:23 pm

Wonder if the Wasps situation impacts Jones thinking for the squads. Just a couple of weeks until the AIs and England training, may actually be physically beneficial for the likes of Willis but who knows the MH impact.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:54 pm

Times says England defence coach, Anthony Seibold, may return to the NRL before the World Cup.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d32bc80-4ad6-11ed-8176-c5c5e560820a?shareToken=19b220454d59acbc220bb91128a9859c

England are braced to lose their defence coach less than a year out from the World Cup, with Anthony Seibold in line to be the new head coach of Manly Sea Eagles in the NRL.

Seibold, who has been in his England post for little more than a year, is flying to London from his home in Australia this weekend. The RFU expects him to be on board for England’s autumn internationals against Argentina, Japan, New Zealand and South Africa.

However, sources in Australia report that Seibold will finalise terms for a return to the NRL after the Autumn Nations Series. Manly sacked their head coach, Des Hasler, on Thursday and the club’s owner, Scott Penn, confirmed in a Fox Sports interview that Seibold was on their wanted list.

“Anthony has been at the club before, he demonstrated phenomenal intellect, he’s a great tactician, he’s really good with the players and he’s shown he’s got credentials as a head coach,” Penn said. “We have identified him as someone we’re very interested in and someone who certainly had a few false starts himself but he’s very capable and would do a tremendous job.”

Seibold’s departure would mean yet another change to England’s coaching staff, forcing Eddie Jones, the head coach, to identify a new assistant before the Six Nations and with only months to go until the World Cup.

Seibold, 48, joined England as defence coach and coaching co-ordinator in September last year, replacing John Mitchell, who decided to leave the RFU and take up a post with Wasps. Mitchell is now coaching Japan.

Although England had a disappointing 2022 Six Nations, they produced an impressive defensive performance in Sydney on the summer tour to clinch the series victory over Australia.

The collapse of Worcester Warriors and Wasps means there are out-of-work coaches available immediately.

Mark Jones, the former Wales wing, was linked with the England job before Seibold was appointed. Jones joined Worcester as defence coach after a successful stint with the Crusaders in Super Rugby.

Jones met Scott Robertson, the Crusaders head coach, during England’s tour to Australia.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:33 pm

I like the last sentence.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:50 am

Mr Bounce wrote:Quirke looked good in his appearance back for Sale last weekend. I think that Jones has seen enough of JVP to know that he's good enough, yet for some reason he seems to rate Randall above Mitchell. Will we see Youngs cast out in the way Robshaw was before the World Cup, or will Jones stubbornly pick his seeming favourite 9 who's probably 2 or 3 years past his best?

I just don't understand Jones' obsession with Youngs. Yes, he's very experienced and has been a great servant for England, but he's 104 now and has about 3 million caps. Surely it's time for his England career to be done? He is not the player he once was.

Ben Youngs has just turned 33 and has actually started the season well. Quirke's return Vs Leicester (and excellent performance was timely), JVP looks to be playing just like he did in the summer and Mitchell looks the same as last season. Randall is out injured so won't be picked and the way he went from first choice to third over the summer was pretty damning.

I suspect it'll be Youngs, JVP and Quirke selected and rotated for the three games as Jones doesn't seem to like Mitchell, I presume it's the way he fades in games and he doesn't have the strongest tactical game which is a bit unfair but Eddie is going to Eddie.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:08 am

Youngs is consistent in games I'll give him that.

by mountain man Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:35 am

Think we all know it will be Youngs plus 2 others, likely JvP and Quirke.

Think we also know it SHOULD be JvP, Quirke and Mitchell.I wouldn't start a match with Mitchell but him coming on could be a real game changer. As others said, seems Jones not a fan though.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:45 am

In those 3 you have there mountain, I think you have the choice of using any of them as starter or finisher. The all have strong basics which is essential but all love to play off the cuff too, blisteringly quick and love to snipe.

by Geordie Fri Oct 14, 2022 4:21 pm

So Wasps and Worcester players who now move a road can play for England under exception rules....

by doctor_grey Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:27 pm

Geordie wrote:So Wasps and Worcester players who now move a road can play for England under exception rules....

Seems reasonable and appropriate under the circumstances.

by king_carlos Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:30 am

It would be very reasonable in the circumstances I think.

The issue for players England might pick could be getting deals in that case though. A lot of very good players but there's a big difference for a French club for instance between getting Jack Willis from now until the Top 14 finals or getting him between the AIs and 6N, then after the 6N as that's realistically what he'll be available for.

By the time you factor in how that might cut down on his wage offers in France, plus the additional wear and tear of maybe not being rested as much outside the Elite Player Agreement it may well be worth his while taking a massive paycut at another Prem club for this season but being in England, with rest periods, then the England match fees topping up said reduced wage.

Launchbury is an interesting one here. A lot of injuries recently and Wasps through and through. Nick Isiekwe is out long enough that Sarries will be able to use the injury dispensation cap for a similar replacement.

by No 7&1/2 Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:31 pm

Not seen a shred of the match yet but Lawrence's carrying stats look great at 13, 254 metres of Baths 491 beating 11 players.
From Charlie Morgan.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not seen a shred of the match yet but Lawrence's carrying stats look great at 13, 254 metres of Baths 491 beating 11 players.
From Charlie Morgan.

He's looked very good this season. I think he's earned a recall. Dare we hope for a Manu and Lawrence midfield combination?

by king_carlos Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:31 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not seen a shred of the match yet but Lawrence's carrying stats look great at 13, 254 metres of Baths 491 beating 11 players.
From Charlie Morgan.

He's looked very good this season. I think he's earned a recall. Dare we hope for a Manu and Lawrence midfield combination?

I certainly wouldn't to be honest! Laugh

Lawrence is certainly pushing for the opportunity to come into the squad as a very necessary understudy to Manu who offers something vaguely similar tactically though. His power and footwork means he offers something that other young centres looked at who I rate don't have.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:52 pm

Bit too similar aren't they. Against the top sides I think you'd struggle a little. Really pleasing he seems to be getting a bit more fan fare though. At what is probably a stressful time for all those players and staff it's good to see.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:28 am

May didn't really get a chance ball in hand in the Gloucester match but he looked great defensively, saved 2 tries for me money.

by mountain man Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:41 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not seen a shred of the match yet but Lawrence's carrying stats look great at 13, 254 metres of Baths 491 beating 11 players.
From Charlie Morgan.

He's looked very good this season. I think he's earned a recall. Dare we hope for a Manu and Lawrence midfield combination?

Not a chance unless Smith injured so Farrell is 10 as I cannot see jones not picking Farrell so it'll be Smith 10 Farrell 12. Even then will Manu be fit and stay fit for more than 5 minutes. I've always been a big fan of Manu and if fit would always pick him but I don't think Eng can rely on him to be fit. One of key issues with Jones selections is he has not found a replacement for Manu and I don't think he's looked hard enough either. The impression I and others get is he muddles along with different combinations but in back of his mind he's just biding time until Manu is available.
Aside from that, is Lawrence really the answer? He's blown hot and cold before.

by Mr Bounce Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:15 pm

Squad is out.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/autumn-nations-series-2022-eddie-jones-names-england-squad

Is Freeman injured? Edit - just seen he's unavailable due to injury

by lostinwales Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:26 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Squad is out.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/autumn-nations-series-2022-eddie-jones-names-england-squad

Is Freeman injured? Edit - just seen he's unavailable due to injury

Unavailable for selection due to injury: Alfie Barbeary, Ollie Chessum, Nic Dolly, Alex Dombrandt, Charlie Ewels, George Ford, Tommy Freeman, Jamie George, Sam Jeffries, Nick Isiekwe, Harry Randall, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill, Jack Walker.

by MichaelT Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:27 pm

No Slade, Marler or Earl or Daly either - latter two have had a great start to the season. Ollie Chessum down as injured is disappointing.

by lostinwales Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:28 pm

Forwards
Alex Coles (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Ellis Genge
Joe Heyes
Jonny Hill
Maro Itoje
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Ludlam
George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
Val Rapava Ruskin (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Bevan Rodd
Sam Simmonds
Kyle Sinckler
Jack Singleton
Hugh Tizard (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola
Mako Vunipola
Jack Willis

Backs
Henry Arundell
Joe Cokanasiga
Owen Farrell
Max Malins
George Furbank
Will Joseph
Jonny May
Cadan Murley (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Nowell
Guy Porter
Raffi Quirke
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward
Manu Tuilagi
Jack van Poortlviet
Ben Youngs

by lostinwales Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:30 pm

Wing selection will be interesting. Arundell may even end up starting.

As ever disappointing to see Furbank and Malins retained. I know both are terrific at club level but I am not convinced they are the players we need for the national squad.

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