Ireland 2022/2023 - moving on

The IRFU have been taking care of business whilst the national team have been taking the plaudits for their successful NZ tour series.  

A week after the 3rd test, Leinster announced their new IRFU-approved CEO to take over from the long-serving and very successful Mick Dawson.  As the wags put it, they searched Google and came up with their man - Shane Nolan -  a Google executive who happens to be a longtime Leinster fan with a strong remit to build up the commercial side of the business including delivering the revamped RDS stadium and a lot more corporate backing.  

Only a couple of days later, up popped the new CEO of the IRFU, Kevin Potts, to say they’d already sat down with Andy Farrell before he headed off to NZ and agreed a two-year extension to his contract with options to extend further if certain performance markers were met.  Presumably that includes not just winning a RWC quarterfinal for the first time…

Farrell is being given the resources and budget to develop the best squad possible including a stronger input into provincial selections and development of all of his likely RWC squad players.  

One gets the impression that IRFU supremo Kevin Potts is going for broke at his first attempt in securing greater success in the RWC than his long-term predecessor, Phillip Browne, ever achieved.  

The Autumn Internationals and Emerging Ireland tour to SA provided an opportunity to develop a wider core of players outside Farrell’s 20-23 already selected cohort of players.  

O’Toole, Loughman, Baird, McCarthy, Timoney, Carbery, Coombes, Casey, Larmour, Hume, Stockdale, Baloucoune, Frawley need greater club and country time this coming season, with possibly some being played out of their regular starting positions for province.  

With the Six Nations coming up, and squad named for the first 1-2 games, a number of players have dropped back, and only 1 uncapped player made it through - Jamie Osborne, who might get an opportunity from the bench during one of the games.

All in all, it continues to be an interesting season in the run-up to the RWC.

I've got to say I didn't think it would happen, series win in NZ etc. Didn't like Nucifora making Ulster get rid of Peinaar, thought he was on the wrong track. But overall, things have worked out. Should it really be that surprising that he knows more about rugby than me, an Internet forum member? Can't be right.

We arent where we need to be yet. Need a bit more depth in some areas, mainly front row and 10. If we beat SA in November and France in the six nations Ill start to believe they hype, right now I starting to think NZ are just very poor, their games v Scotland and Wales in November will be a good barometer.

The next 12 months should be about making

Lowry, Baloucoune, Stockdale, Hume, Larmour, Casey, Doak
Prendergast, Timoney, Coombes, Treadwell, McCarthy, O’Toole, Bealham ready to step on a pitch to make a full contribution for Ireland at the World Cup

Some are already there
Furlong, Sheehan, Herring, Kelleher, Porter, Henderson, Ryan, Beirne, POM, Conan, Doris, DeFlier
Gibson-Park, Murray, Sexton, Aki, Henshaw, Ringrose, Lowe, Hansen, Conway

Some I have to say give me cause for concern
Earls, Carberry, Hansen, Scannell, Healy, Kilcoyne.

Not convinced they are up for it, although I have nothing but praise for the two LHs and Earls for their contributions over the years

As previously stated 10 is a one player good enough position and props would struggle without the first choice player

Unsure where what bucket Hansen falls into G? or was one of those meant to be Keenan?

I would have thought Geoff meant Keenan is in the 'already there' pot.

That being said I would put Hansen in that same pot personally. Carberry is a definite cause for concern as the IRFU seem determined to continue with him. I'd gladly watch him prove me wrong but he's yet to convince me.

I'd agree with you Pete. I usually find myself agreeing with Geoff on many an item.

I agree with Sheehan and Kelleher being in the 'already there' bucket. Just to add it's impressive when Sheehan has 10 caps and Kelleher 18 caps. Hooker I'd have usually expected people to take longer to establish themselves into that position.


A very intriguing part is also number 10-12 options at Leinster. Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne nor Frawley really being mentioned. Personally I'd love Frawley to get time at 10 and 12 across this coming season to become a better utility option for Ireland. Selections will be very tough, though sods law would suggest that injuries end up making selections automatic once the season gets going.

And would Ulster push Doak into the starting 9 spot at Ulster in front of Cooney when Cooney does so much for them. For Ireland, the likes of a Cooney with recent experience at 9 and 10 would also be a great option in situations where a crucial test requires a 6-2 split on the bench?

The first Hansen was indeed meant to be Keenan

Hansen I think comes up slightly short - a fully fit Stockdale, a fully fit Baloucoune and a fully firing Larmour all have more to give and are bigger attacking threats.

I actually considered Murray and Conway as player to query if they meet the already there rating.
In the end Conway has the versatility and experience to justify his inclusion.
Murray is not quite where he was but with Cooney being persona non gratis and McGrath coming up short we will need Murray.
The potential of Doak and Casey needs to be tested.

Frawley needs to play regularly for Leinster and Ireland need to decide is he a 10 or a 12.
Probably should have been included in my 'make them World Cup ready group.'

To honest at heart I think ever one knows we will come up short if Sexton doesn't play.
There is only one other 10 good enough to do the job and he will never play for Ireland - Jackson.
Carbery doesn't cut it at the highest level.

"There is only one other 10 good enough to do the job and he will never play for Ireland - Jackson"

Very true Geoff and after him and Sexton there is a precipitous drop off in quality, Carberry isn't even next on the list to be honest.

I see what you mean about Hansen now and if Stockdale can make a comeback befitting of his talents then it's be difficult to warrant Hansen's inclusion despite what he brings.

An Emerging Ireland tour in South Africa is being planned in about 4-5 weeks to give outside players a further opportunity to claim a place in the RWC squad next year.  Proposed fixtures are Sept 30: Griquas v Emerging Ireland.  Oct 5: Pumas v Emerging Ireland. Oct 9: Cheetahs v Emerging Ireland. The trip replaces the possible Irish provinces’ A sides games against the SA teams.  Farrell is likely to use players from the 2 NZ Maori games along with some others.

The squad will likely include Stuart McCloskey, Jimmy O’Brien, Ciarán Frawley, Craig Casey, Jeremy Loughman, Ed Byrne, Niall Scannell, Tom O’Toole, Joe McCarthy, Cian Prendergast, Gavin Coombes and Nick Timoney.

Farrell’s thinking is that players  will gain more from further exposure to the Ireland way, rather than feature in URC games happening during that period.

Wish I had of known that a bunch of our players where going to miss at least the first 4 games of the season before I bought a season ticket.
Theres 9 home games in a season and 3 of Ulsters come in the first 4 games. So essentially anhyone going to ravenhill will be watching a back up Ulster team for a third of the games they paid for.

Ireland had better win the World Cup.

Looks like Gavin Coombes from Munster won't be selected for the Emerging Ireland squad as he's picked up an injury that will keep him out until early October.

Stockdale is fully recovered and training so might be considered but that would be another Ulster senior player missing for their league games, if Baloucoune is picked as well.

RWC Nailed on and -- possible candidates for selection

Porter, Healy -- Loughman, O'Sullivan, J Wycherley, E Byrne, Kilcoyne
Sheehan, Kelleher, Herring -- Heffernan, Scannell
Furlong, Bealham -- O'Toole, Moore
Ryan, Henderson, Beirne -- Baird, Treadwell, McCarthy, Ahern, F Wycherley
POM, JvdF, Doris, Conan -- Timoney, O'Donoghue, G Coombes, Prendergast, Connors, Kendellen
Gibson-Park, Murray -- Casey, Doak, McDonald
Sexton, Carbery -- H Byrne, Frawley
Aki, Henshaw, Ringrose -- Hume, McCloskey
Lowe, Earls, Hansen, Conway -- Stockdale, Baloucoune, O'Brien, Larmour
Keenan -- Lowry, Haley

Maybe it's just me, but after the NZ tour I would say Treadwell is now a nailed on player, assuming he stays fit.

I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of this tour.

Forgetting for a moment that they are significantly hurting the provinces I don't see the benefits of it to the national side.

They are going to South Africa to play teams that aren't even in the URC, teams that may well not be at full strength as some of their players could be in SA URC sides covering for their international players being away.

So the quality of the opposition is no where near what these guys will have to face in the RWC, it's not even the same level as what they would face in the URC if they stayed in the provinces.

Andy Farrell isn't even going to be there, it's Easterby leading the squad so it won't expose them to his methods more.

All it does is allow them to play together for a few games against opposition who aren't of a proper international standard.

It doesn't make sense to me. South Africa are due to have a team play Munster during November AI's. Why is that not against Emerging Ireland.

If they are serious about this being for the World cup the easiest/best way would surely be to have Emerging Ireland v that South Africa team, have them play an Australian A team since they are touring too. They will likely be the ones to play v Fiji anyways.

You could even take those matches on the road to Munster, Connacht or Ulster and build up a bit of support and rapport for the national side in the provinces and you would be earning money from those games too.

They would be training with Farrell and all so would be exposed far better to his coaching methods.

All of that without even hurting the provinces as it would be during an international period. Genuinely baffles me how these people in charge can come up with those ideas.

To me it seems more about exposing these guys to being on a tour more than anything else and maybe even seeing what they are like on a tour as the World Cup is basically a very long rugby tour. All games are at altitude too so that might be part of it who knows. No harm in trying new things, everything else we have tried as World Cup prep has failed to date so no harm in trying a new approach.

They had a number of these players on tour to New Zealand so surely they know what they are like on tour, although I guess you could argue it gets them more used to being on tour. Also the head coach isn't even going to be there to observe it for himself.

Are we playing any games at altitude on the RWC? If there is any benefit on that front it would also be long gone before the RWC.

We have never actually tried the simple things like the above I suggested, I feel like they could try that first instead of doing something that seems random.

Of course things should be focussed on the RWC, but doing something that has absolutely no discernable link to the RWC that the head coach isn't even going to doesn't make sense.

Sounds like it's mainly going to be youngsters brought on tour. Provinces won't be hit too hard.

profitius wrote:Sounds like it's mainly going to be youngsters brought on tour. Provinces won't be hit too hard.

Yep - from the Indo today:

"Some players who featured in the two recent Maori All Blacks games in New Zealand are in line for the Emerging Ireland tour, while the squad is also set to include a plethora of less experienced players, who will get their first taste of international camp.

Although the three games in South Africa will clash with the provinces’ URC schedule, the front-line Ireland stars are expected to be available for selection for the start of the league season."

In this case I can understand the purpose of the tour a lot better and certainly it makes a lot more sense if these guys are mostly young guys who have never played nationally at senior level before.

Certainly makes a lot more sense than what I thought was originally due to happen

Ireland A will host a New Zealand All Blacks XV on Friday night, November 4th at the RDS. Following on from Ireland’s 2-1 Test series victory in New Zealand during the summer — the midweek side also shared the spoils, 1-1, in two matches against the Maori All Blacks — the two countries will meet again, this time at A level.

geoff999rugby wrote:The first Hansen was indeed meant to be Keenan

Hansen I think comes up slightly short - a fully fit Stockdale, a fully fit Baloucoune and a fully firing Larmour all have more to give and are bigger attacking threats.

I actually considered Murray and Conway as player to query if they meet the already there rating.
In the end Conway has the versatility and experience to justify his inclusion.
Murray is not quite where he was but with Cooney being persona non gratis and McGrath coming up short we will need Murray.
The potential of Doak and Casey needs to be tested.

Frawley needs to play regularly for Leinster and Ireland need to decide is he a 10 or a 12.
Probably should have been included in my 'make them World Cup ready group.'

To honest at heart I think ever one knows we will come up short if Sexton doesn't play.
There is only one other 10 good enough to do the job and he will never play for Ireland - Jackson.
Carbery doesn't cut it at the highest level.

Would love to see Stockdale, Larmour and Baloucoune involved more in some way this season.
Also Jimmy O’Brien.
Could Baloucoune be for the 15 a side game, what Conroy is for the 7’s. Exciting player when he gets his hands on the ball, gets the crowd on their feet.


Paddy is doing great for Irish, as you say, won’t play for Ireland.

Emerging Ireland Squad – Toyota Challenge 2022
Backs (15)

Robert Baloucoune (Ulster/Enniskillen)*
Caolin Blade (Connacht/Galwegians)*
Jack Crowley (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Shane Daly (Munster/Cork Constitution)*
Nathan Doak (Ulster/Banbridge)
Jake Flannery (Ulster/Shannon)
Antoine Frisch (Munster)
Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/UCD)
Michael McDonald (Ulster)
Ethan McIlroy (Ulster/Queens RFC)
Stewart Moore (Ulster/Malone)
Chay Mullins (Connacht/IQ Rugby)
Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster)
Jamie Osbourne (Leinster/Naas)
Andrew Smith (Leinster/Clontarf)

Forwards (20)

Tom Ahern (Munster/Shannon)
Diarmuid Barron (Munster/Garryowen)
Tom Clarkson (Leinster/Dublin University)
James Culhane (Leinster/UCD)
Max Deegan (Leinster/Lansdowne)*
Brian Deeny (Leinster/Clontarf)
John Hodnett (Munster/UCC)
Sam Illo (Connacht)
Cormac Izuchukwu (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Alex Kendellen (Munster/UCC)
Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin University)
Michael Milne (Leinster/UCD)
Scott Penny (Leinster/UCD)
Cian Prendergast (Connacht)
Callum Reid (Ulster/Banbridge)
Roman Salonoa (Munster/Shannon)
Alex Soroka (Leinster/Clontarf)
Tom Stewart (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Dylan Tierney-Martin (Connacht/Corinthians)
Josh Wycherley (Munster/Young Munster)

Alex Soroka is going to be a great player for Ireland.

I have to say I don't get the value of this Emerging Ireland tour. It seems an awfully expensive way of getting Frawley additional game time at 10. Many of these prospects are already getting to play in URC games for their provinces and this is likely to be at least as intense as the games that are planned for the tour.

Surely additional games as the Wolfhounds or as an Emerging Ireland team during the international window would work as well. I suppose at least Munster and Leinster are making the most of opportunities in this period, so it's not a complete loss. But Wolfhounds against South Africa A would do more to develop depth for RWC2023 in my view, as well as possibly making some money rather than costing it.

A foreign tour may help with team building and identifying many other other "unseen" and un-definable character traits in these young players, as well as possibly testing out the coaching staff without an obvious existing head honcho in charge but is this best value when financial constraints are obvious?

Looks like Chris Farrell wont be involved with Irish rugby for the forseeable future finding himself involved in Paddy Jacksonesque off field incidents.

Maybe this will open the door once and for all for McCloskey to step up.

8 week ban for Aki. Possible reduction by a week. Surely a chance for McCloskey to get some game time this Autumn

Maine man wrote:8 week ban for Aki. Possible reduction by a week. Surely a chance for McCloskey to get some game time this Autumn

PremierSports were highlight a tackle by Henshaw immediately post match too, so suspect a ban there too?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Maine man wrote:8 week ban for Aki. Possible reduction by a week. Surely a chance for McCloskey to get some game time this Autumn

PremierSports were highlight a tackle by Henshaw immediately post match too, so suspect a ban there too?

Was that the tackle on Stockdale? I thought that it might be looked at during the game but can't remember if it was.

I was very surprised it wasn't looked at, looked like a shoulder to the head to me at the time in the stadium (on Stockdale I presume is the one) and looked it up after and it's shocking it wasn't even looked at

Emerging Ireland: C Mullins (Connacht); E McIlroy (Ulster), A Frisch (Munster), C Forde (Connacht), A Smith (Leinster); J Flannery (Ulster), M McDonald (Ulster); C Reid (Ulster), D Barron (Munster), R Salonoa (Munster); C Izuchukwu (Ulster), B Deeny (Leinster); C Prendergast (Connacht), J Hodnett (Munster), J Culhane (Leinster).

Replacements: D Tierney-Martin (Connacht), J Wycherley (Munster), S Illo (Connacht), T Ahern (Munster), D McCann (Ulster), B Murphy (Leinster), J Crowley (Munster), S Daly (Munster).

Anyone know when the squad for the Autumn Internationals is announced?

Unclear wrote:Anyone know when the squad for the Autumn Internationals is announced?

According to the beeb website tomorrow.

Thanks Maine man, I've just seen it in the McCloskey article as well.

Good to see McCloskey make the squad, Balucoune too. Exciting squad.

Ireland Squad – Bank of Ireland Nations Series 2022

Backs (16)

Robert Baloucoune (Ulster/Enniskillen) 2 caps
Joey Carbery (Munster/Clontarf) 35 caps
Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon) 5 caps
Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/Skerries) uncapped
Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 20 caps
Mack Hansen (Connacht) 6 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 60 caps
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 23 caps
Michael Lowry (Ulster/Banbridge) 1 cap
Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 99 caps
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor) 6 caps
Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster) uncapped
Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster/Naas) uncapped
Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD) 44 caps
Johnny Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 108 caps CAPTAIN
Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan) 35 caps

Forwards (21)

Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University) 8 caps
Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 25 caps
Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 33 caps
Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere) 30 caps
Gavin Coombes (Munster/Young Munster) 2 caps
Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 20 caps
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf) 60 caps
Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 7 caps
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 118 caps
Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 28 caps
Jeremy Loughman (Munster/Garryowen) uncapped
Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin) uncapped
Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 87 caps
Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 3 caps
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 46 caps
Cian Prendergast (Connacht) uncapped
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 46 caps
Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne) 10 caps
Nick Timoney (Ulster/Banbridge) 2 caps
Kieran Treadwell (Ulster/Ballymena) 8 caps
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 43 caps

Only 3 forwards and 3 backs have over fifty caps, young enough squad.

Collapse2005 wrote:Only 3 forwards and 3 backs have over fifty caps, young enough squad.

It would be great if they limited those 6 players to 1 Test match and used the rest of the games to build minutes across the squad, and leadership within that 30-40 cap cohort.

Boks have named two squads, their depth is ridiculous. Jason Jenkins is in, who I didn't expect to see. He's been playing well but I expect he's in to stop anyone else nicking him, he won't get past the status quo of Etzebeth et al.

mikey_dragon wrote:Boks have named two squads, their depth is ridiculous. Jason Jenkins is in, who I didn't expect to see. He's been playing well but I expect he's in to stop anyone else nicking him, he won't get past the status quo of Etzebeth et al.

Ezebeth is a really good player but he isnt undroppable. Ive seen him have plenty of off games including the last time he played Ireland when he was played off the park by big Dev.

This was SA's pack and they were absolutely munched by Ireland 38-3.

1 Tendai Mtawarira
2 Malcolm Marx
3 Coenie Oosthuizen
4 Eben Etzebeth (Captain)
5 Lood de Jager
6 Siya Kolisi
7 Pieter-Steph du Toit
8 Francois Louw

True, but didn’t they have that awful coach at the time? They lost to Italy and Rob Howley’s Wales.

Yeah a good coach and good team can bring the best pit of some players and make others play above themselves.

Should be an exciting few weeks. There are plenty of injury concerns but I'd be confident the coaches will get the team going well.

mikey_dragon wrote:Boks have named two squads, their depth is ridiculous. Jason Jenkins is in, who I didn't expect to see. He's been playing well but I expect he's in to stop anyone else nicking him, he won't get past the status quo of Etzebeth et al.

Is/was Jenkins Welsh qualified? He actually looks more Welsh than your typical South African.

I’m not sure, I just assumed he was with this middle and last names!

Strong SA side to play Ireland

South Africa team: C Kolbe (Toulon); K-L Arendse (Vodacom Bulls), J Kriel (Canon Eagles), D De Allende (Wild Knights), M Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks); D Willemse (DHL Stormers), J Hendrikse (Cell C Sharks); S Kitshoff (DHL Stormers), M Marx (Kubota Spears), F Malherbe (DHL Stormers), E Etzebeth (Cell C Sharks), L De Jager (Wild Knights), S Kolisi (Cell C Sharks, captain), P-S Du Toit (Toyota Verblitz), Ja Wiese (Leicester Tigers).

Replacements: B Mbonambi (Cell C Sharks), O Nche (Cell C Sharks), V Koch (unattached), F Mostert (Honda Heat), D Fourie (DHL Stormers), K Smith (Shizuoka Blue Revs), Faf De Klerk (Canon Eagles), Willie Le Roux (Toyota Verblitz).

Really looking forward to this match. Ireland haven't played the Erasmus influenced South Africa 'bomb squad' team.

And if Ireland play with the pace and accuracy they had in the summer, not sure how South Africa will slow it down. Two real contrasts on show.

Its not a surprise that the Boks have gone with a 6/2 bench split, meaning at full back Cheslin Kolbe will cover 10.

Well Ireland also have a much improved team and squad, should be a good match. 10 point win Ireland.

What time is KO? I'll try and catch it whilst out.

Strong SA side, has Kolbe played much at full back? Looks a bit risky.

SA looking to do to Ireland what the La Rochelle and Saracens have done previously against Leinster?
Let's see how it goes? Make a mess of the ruck, get around the scrum-half's feet, get a big defensive body to flop onto 3 opponents in the breakdown and use the weight to tire Ireland down and 'awkwardness' to stop the players from getting into the next attacking formation. Some pulls and drags, bit of sledging too, to try and get a rise out of players and distract them from getting into position and keeping the tempo up.
It's probably too soon to see if getting regular URC gametime against SA packs has taught Ireland how to cope with this. The expressions 'man up' and 'front up' I think are overused and oversimplify the situation. But the good thing is we have another 12 months to get it right, so we don't have to have (or show) all the answers right now!

Well its interesting that SA are starting with their "bomb squad" front row (who are actually effectively their first choice players) and have their normal starters on the bench. I think that the SA tactic will clearly be to go after Ireland's pack from the start and trust that their replacement props will bring even more pain. The six two split was also used by France to beat Ireland in Paris earlier this year. Ireland have made changes since then though and I think we will be ready for what the Boks will bring.

One change that will help is around exit plays and not trying to run as much from our own goal line area when against such a physical side. We copped a key try to France by conceding a turnover on one such exit play.