Scotland 6N lookahead

First topic message reminder :

Results in aggregate this year for the national team were:

5 February 2022 - Scotland 20–17 England
12 February 2022 - Wales 20–17 Scotland
26 February 2022 - Scotland 17–36 France
12 March 2022 - Italy 22–33 Scotland
19 March 2022 - Ireland 26–5 Scotland
2 July 2022 - Argentina 26–18 Scotland
9 July 2022 - Argentina 6–29 Scotland
16 July 2022 - Argentina 34–31 Scotland
29 October 2022 - Scotland 15–16 Australia
5 November 2022 - Scotland 28–12 Fiji
13 November 2022 - Scotland 23–31 New Zealand
19 November 2022 - Scotland 52–29 Argentina

P 12 W 5 L 7

The question is "Is this the best team Scotland can put out and are they playing to their potential" If the answer to either part is "NO" then the coach takes the blame.

On Russell - we do not know what has gone on between him and Townsend but part of a coaches job is to manage the players. Townsend clearly cannot manage Russell yet the Racing coach can. I watched a podcast with one of the Racing coaches who was praising Russells contribution to the team and about him being very much a team man

Well Racing, unlike Scotland do pay his wages and they are not insignificant.

Not the best thing to do to fall out with your employer. Rumour has it that even Racing, who have choosen a more pragmatic coach in Stuart Lancaster going forward, have come to the conclusion that they are not going to win anything with Russell at the helm.

He is playing for his contract at the moment or putting himself in the shop window for one somewhere else, that might explain his 'improved form" in the last whole.

Great FHs, Carter, Sexton, Wilkinson etc win things, Mavericks Russell, Spencer, Cipriani etc usually do not.

I would love to be proved wrong on that one!

The coach on the podcast said the opposite. What a good team man he is at Racing. Its poor man management from toonie

BigGee wrote:Well Racing, unlike Scotland do pay his wages and they are not insignificant.

Not the best thing to do to fall out with your employer. Rumour has it that even Racing, who have choosen a more pragmatic coach in Stuart Lancaster going forward, have come to the conclusion that they are not going to win anything with Russell at the helm.

He is playing for his contract at the moment or putting himself in the shop window for one somewhere else, that might explain his 'improved form" in the last whole.

Great FHs, Carter, Sexton, Wilkinson etc win things, Mavericks Russell, Spencer, Cipriani etc usually do not.

I would love to be proved wrong on that one!

That's quite a lot of speculation Gee!

It might be true of course. Finn joined in 2017 and they haven't won a Top 14 or Champions Cup during that time.

At the same time, they were ERCC beaten finalists twice in 17-18 and 19-20 and I don't think that Russell was to blame for either of those.

At prestige clubs, the main players are always playing for their new contracts.

Most telling stat for us yesterday

M Fagerson - 6 carries for 8m. 23 tackles

Now that’s an obscene number of tackles but I don’t my number 8 spending the whole game tackling. I want him breaking the gainline with the ball.

Also hamish missed a tackle again. That’s two weeks in a row. I think he needs a rest.

Woof. The Pumas just beat England at Twickenham.

On the basis of the Argentina England game I’ve just watched, Argentina are going to muller us. Boffeli kicked them to death and Scotland will give up more penalties than the English just have.

Heuer27 wrote:On the basis of the Argentina England game I’ve just watched, Argentina are going to muller us. Boffeli kicked them to death and Scotland will give up more penalties than the English just have.

I don’t know what we do more of. Box kicks or concede penalties

Latest Tom English piece on fishing rights in the River Tweed:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/63533355

Just kidding, it's about Finn Russell, obviously.

And this was the game Finn played at the weekend that he comments on in the article:

Terribly out of form. I mean he has only had one MOM award recently, missed a couple of kicks and only scored a small handful of tries with only a large handful of assists. he needs to do more!

TJ wrote:Terribly out of form.  I mean he has only had one MOM award recently, missed a couple of kicks and only scored a small handful of tries with only a large handful of assists.  he needs to do more!

He needs to match Ross Thompson, who has set an unbelievably high benchmark this season, barely playing at all and doing almost nothing when he has.

If Hastings is out and Russell isn't called up, then Toonie should be sacked immediately.

George Carlin wrote:Woof. The Pumas just beat England at Twickenham.

Boffelli had another brilliant game for Arg, so glad we have him at Edinburgh. The first Arg try after the break was a beauty. Straight off the training ground and I couldn't help but laugh when Arg got a simple intercept thanks to a woeful pass to no one from Farrell (who made a big fuss about an imaginary Arg knock on). I don't follow England closely but I think after the world cup cycle they will clean out the inventory so to speak, Eddie Jones included.

Just to add, the recall of Russell certainly won't fix everything, and his absence is far from the only issue. The rub is that we are just far far too sluggish and one dimensional. We take ages in the ruck and these slow minded wrap around plays just aren't fooling any defences (and because we are so slow the defences are invariably well set). Ruck speed and recycling is just second or third rate, and when you see good teams, like New Zealand and Ireland at the weekend, the difference is startling.

I also agree with those above who note that Hamish isn't quite the player he was. He's lost something, and should be dropped. He'd be my 7 were I to pick a Scotland team from my days as a supporter, and I hold him in the highest regard, however I'd drop him now for Dempsey, and move Fagerson to 6 and Ritchie to 7. I'd put Christie on the bench.

The midfield was a disaster against Fiji, but to GCs point we need to start building some continuity and allow the players to get to know each other. On paper the players looked right on Saturday, but they looked like complete strangers on the field. Tuipolotu has probably looked our best bet, but I'd probably let Redpath/Harris have another shot.

bsando wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Woof. The Pumas just beat England at Twickenham.

Boffelli had another brilliant game for Arg, so glad we have him at Edinburgh. The first Arg try after the break was a beauty. Straight off the training ground and I couldn't help but laugh when Arg got a simple intercept thanks to a woeful pass to no one from Farrell (who made a big fuss about an imaginary Arg knock on). I don't follow England closely but I think after the world cup cycle they will clean out the inventory so to speak, Eddie Jones included.

When it comes to squandering talent and taking the sting out of your own attack, Eddie Jones and Toonie are soul mates!!

The rub is that we are just far far too sluggish and one dimensional

IMO it seems like the team do not believe in the game plan and are not prepared right mentally. I don't think there is much wrong with the forwards selection. These are basically the best we have. But they need to believe they can win and to believe in the plan.

Despite all the nonsense off the pitch, I am really encouraged by Ben White. I really like the way he goes about his game for Scotland and hope he starts next weekend.

If Hastings is injured I think it would be wise (as Tom English says) to get Russell into camp or possibly Hutchinson or VDW if he really is opposed to having Russell involved at all. Thompson benching for the AB's game is probably not the disaster that English seems to make it out to be, but having another 10 in camp does seem like a good idea considering the level of threat from the upcoming opposition.

Also I liked the look of Walker yesterday, seems pretty solid and only his first cap. The old fella Nel only has a few more caps left in him so someone has to step up there. Also, does anyone else think Gray and Gray should be our starters for NZ? I do. Scrum seemed really good with both of them packing down yesterday. Saying that Fiji looked gassed by then.

I think Watson is off his best but should still be a dead cert to start. He's not quite as far along as AWJ or Vunipola are and I'd expect him to be playing past the RWC.

Sutherland, Turner, Fagerson
Gray, Gray
Ritchie, Watson
Dempsey
White, Kinghorn
Redpath, Harris
VDM, Graham
Hogg

Ashman, Schoeman, Nel, Gilchrist, Fagerson, Price, Thompson, Smith

We are not going to get anywhere without a decent 10. I saw nowt from Hastings to believe he can step up to international standard and he is no better than Kinghorn. Hopefully Thompson comes good in the future. He looks the part but he is not ready yet

I remember when we had Chalmers and Townsend - if the coach did not trust Townsend as often he did not then we had Chalmers - a dull but good player to take over. We have no one to take over from Russell now. We just don't have an international standard 10 apart from him

So argentina have felled england at HQ and with Australia nearly embarrassing France last night does this our cast recent results in a different light? Perhaps we are not a shabby as is thought overall.

Current affairs: Watson needs a rest, RGray looms once again rejuvenated. Dempsey is a clever 8. Ben white has earned his start as a smart cookie too. I don’t see the fuss for Fagerson at 8, 6 i would be happy with and Mbawza at 7.5. Finn will be back against NZ with face saved all round due to the injuries. Being world leaders for being penalised will take some time to remove from the officials mind sets when we play anyone ranked above us. The remedy of course would be beating the ABs next week, something we could do more easily than getting past ireland or SA due to the way the teams play.

£5 on scotland for the win next week…

takethelongroad wrote:So argentina have felled england at HQ and with Australia nearly embarrassing France last night does this our cast recent results in a different light? Perhaps we are not a shabby as is thought overall.

Current affairs: Watson needs a rest, RGray looms once again rejuvenated. Dempsey is a clever 8. Ben white has earned his start as a smart cookie too. I don’t see the fuss for Fagerson at 8, 6 i would be happy with and Mbawza at 7.5. Finn will be back against NZ with face saved all round due to the injuries. Being world leaders for being penalised will take some time to remove from the officials mind sets when we play anyone ranked above us. The remedy of course would be beating the ABs next week, something we could do more easily than getting past ireland or SA due to the way the teams play.

£5 on scotland for the win next week…

I don't think so. I think France were pretty poor and Aus stepped up their game.I feel England are very much in the same boat as us just now

TJ wrote:We are not going to get anywhere without a decent 10.  I saw nowt from Hastings to believe he can step up to international standard and he is no better than Kinghorn.  Hopefully Thompson comes good in the future.  He looks the part but he is not ready yet

I do wonder how long it'll be before the SRU start making serious overtures towards Fin Smith the dual qualified current England under 20 captain. He's looking classy at 10 for Saints.

I’ve got a sneaky feeling that Fin Smith will be wearing a blue top before the end of the autumn internationals. Both parents Scottish, grandfather was Scottish international. That’s more Scottish than half the current squad combined.

"My family is all Scottish so there is support from that side. I don’t think I’m at the stage of my career just yet to be making any decisions."

Fin Smith quoted this weekend in a national newspaper. I suspect he'll wait until after the world cup and see which head coaches are at which countries.

formerly known as Sam wrote:"My family is all Scottish so there is support from that side. I don’t think I’m at the stage of my career just yet to be making any decisions."

Fin Smith quoted this weekend in a national newspaper. I suspect he'll wait until after the world cup and see which head coaches are at which countries.

If I were him I'd dig out some Irish heritage!!!

formerly known as Sam wrote:"My family is all Scottish so there is support from that side. I don’t think I’m at the stage of my career just yet to be making any decisions."

Fin Smith quoted this weekend in a national newspaper. I suspect he'll wait until after the world cup and see which head coaches are at which countries.

I may be wrong but is that not from an interview from quite a while ago? Newspapers are known for dragging up old quotes an making it look like they interviewed them when they hadn't!

formerly known as Sam wrote:"My family is all Scottish so there is support from that side. I don’t think I’m at the stage of my career just yet to be making any decisions."

Fin Smith quoted this weekend in a national newspaper. I suspect he'll wait until after the world cup and see which head coaches are at which countries.

Toonie was certainly talking him up the other day, which is unusual in itself about a player thst he might be pursuing.

He sounded quite confident about the outcome.

In a couple of years time, he could have a decent run at making the Scotland 10 shirt his own.

Likliehood is that nothing will happen this side of the WC though, he certainly is not at the stage where he is ready to grab a starting FH shirt for any international side yet and may be a couple of years away frkm thst yet. Though moving to Saints may well accelerate that process.

Will watch this one with interest.

I know FES is kidding...Sexton can't keep going. He looks like he is getting injured every third tackle. I think Healy can see the pathway to 20 caps competing with Byrne, Carbery and Burns. Fin as well could look at England and see Ford/Farrell as in their 30's and he could be the next to get a shot.

Bsando, mostly agree with the 23. Turner went off injured and I thought Ashman was very good. Would start him and probably whomever is fit on the bench between Turner, Cherry and McInally. If Cummings is fit, he should bench over Gilchrist.

Hoggy has taken to social media clearly unhappy at the amount of banter/abuse he's getting about his teeth and hair. He's completely right that men's mental health is a real issue and people abusing him don't realise the impact it has on him.

Saying that, he does look ridiculous!

And I suspect there would be less focus on his appearance of he was putting in top performances on the field, which he hasn't done for a while.

RDW wrote:Hoggy has taken to social media clearly unhappy at the amount of banter/abuse he's getting about his teeth and hair. He's completely right that men's mental health is a real issue and people abusing him don't realise the impact it has on him.

Saying that, he does look ridiculous!

And I suspect there would be less focus on his appearance of he was putting in top performances on the field, which he hasn't done for a while.

You do wonder why he does that?

As if everyone who reads his post is going to say, 'fair enough Hoggy. You have a point'

In reality it is throwing petrol on a bonfire.

Hoggy used to get involved in social media spats, but i thought he had moved away from that.

Clearly not.

Mental health is a big thing. Im not going to have a go at his hair, crack on with whatever you want to do with it

But the teeth??? His teeth were fine before and he’s gone and done a Rylan and made them fake as hell. Go fake, prepare to get comments.

So we've gone from Ben Healy potentially getting a first call up before the team announcement a couple of weeks ago to now, Fin Smith is in contention to replace Hastings (Source: The Ruck paper).

The noises are that Fin smith will go with Scotland. It’ll mean he’ll lose the EQ payment but realistically is he going to get many caps with Marcus smith around at England?

Tough call for the youngster

I don't think so. I think France were pretty poor and Aus stepped up their game.I feel England are very much in the same boat as us just now

Australia played well above the level they showed last week. They got a couple of lucky breaks in the build up to their wonder try but finished it superbly.

France were missing two starters from last year: Willemse and Villiere. They were both vital cogs in the French machine and their replacements can't really fill their boots.

Also Ntamack and Baille were feeling their way back after long injury layoffs

Galthie used his bench well. Jalibert upped the tempo, made some breaks and threw a beautiful pass to Penauld to scorch in at the corner with the match winning try

They will be better next week against the Boks, I suspect

This is worth a watch - on Finn at Racing

@TigerTattie.

It's still 10 grand a game for Scotland, it's not bad scratch at all, and only 2.5 x less than the England boys. I doubt he'll be doing the sums but he'll be looked after.

It's mental that he's potentially being touted as starting v the All Blacks on debut next week. Genuinely mystifying. Townsend needs to come clean about this.

I don't like this weird residual calvinist authoritarianism that still runs like a thread through our society. I don't like it. Don't like it at all.

Mcsweens wrote:@TigerTattie.

It's still 10 grand a game for Scotland, it's not bad scratch at all, and only 2.5 x less than the England boys. I doubt he'll be doing the sums but he'll be looked after.

It's mental that he's potentially being touted as starting v the All Blacks on debut next week. Genuinely mystifying. Townsend needs to come clean about this.

I don't like this weird residual calvinist authoritarianism that still runs like a thread through our society. I don't like it. Don't like it at all.

I'm not saying that WRCA isn't imprinted on Scottish life like sugar crystals in slabs of Tablet; I just don't see how that follows from the first two sentences. i said Scottish life because living in Essex i have to look reaaly hard to find any evidence of Calvinism, residual or otherwise.

If Fin Smith has been starting for Northampton and played more than 20 minutes this season, then surely that puts him ahead of Ross The Wonder Kid according to Toonie's picking on form metric?

remeber what Michael Atherton said about John Wooden (who Toonie regards as a role model for aspiring coaches) he set standards in his personal life which he wanted his players to strive for: living u to those standards would be very easy if you were a monk.
Somehow I don't think Dancer ever got into the habit.

@jimbo
I was referring to Toonie not being open and honest about his reasons for omitting Dancer, rather than the money.
I'm exaggerating slightly, and I don't doubt your view from sunny Essex gives more perspective. But I don't like how Townsend wants get away with the "selection based on form" line when Ross T hasn't played hardly at all, and Russell has. It's insulting. Just be a bit more open, please, Mr Townsend. That might even help solve the issue.

*On Calvinism, for me there's the bit about being tighter than a duck's arse with money, but then there's also the whole emotional retardation and hierarchy.

Step aside Blair, there's another vanity project on the horizon!

I said earlier I think Toonie would be very foolhardy to make a choice like that. I'm not doubting fin Smith is a talented youngster but he'd essentially be thrown to the lions for the sake of the coach's ego. I'd sooner see Thompson bench than Smith have an awful start to his international career. At least Thompson has got caps already!

To me it strikes me as Toonie doing what a lot of outgoing governments do which is make a completely irrational choice to create a "legacy". Look at all these players I've capped for Scotland kind of thing.

Mcsweens wrote:@jimbo
I was referring to Toonie not being open and honest about his reasons for omitting Dancer, rather than the money.
I'm exaggerating slightly, and I don't doubt your view from sunny Essex gives more perspective. But I don't like how Townsend wants get away with the "selection based on form" line when Ross T hasn't played hardly at all, and Russell is. It's insulting. Just be a bit more open, please, Mr Townsend. That might even help solve the issue.

Everybody and his brother knows its baloney

Trouble is if toonie says its because Finn does not fit into the ethos of the team or is disruptive or whatever then it calls into question his man management skills as Finn is a key player and seen as a team man at Racing.

@TJ

People are already calling this into question and rightly so.
Thing is, they are now calling into question his honesty and cred too, and rightly so.

It's a big own goal

I remember, years ago, when some young Aussie prospect was being suggested for a debut against the Blackness and sean Fitzpatrick said they considered it a duty to make sure that anyone who had the temerity to get his first cap against them had such a torrid time that it was probably their last cap. N.B. "temerity" and "torrid " were my own words; Fitzpatric being a hooker was probably more florid in his language.

I think tbh we'll all find out that this was pure hearsay and Toonie speculating rather than it actually happening. How much talk was there about Healy which amounted to nothing?

I expect Finn R will be called up. If Smith is called up it'll be 6Ns, so long as England don't cap him. I honestly think even at full toombola Toonie wouldn't do that to Fin Smith.

jimbopip wrote:

Mcsweens wrote:@TigerTattie.

It's still 10 grand a game for Scotland, it's not bad scratch at all, and only 2.5 x less than the England boys. I doubt he'll be doing the sums but he'll be looked after.

It's mental that he's potentially being touted as starting v the All Blacks on debut next week. Genuinely mystifying. Townsend needs to come clean about this.

I don't like this weird residual calvinist authoritarianism that still runs like a thread through our society. I don't like it. Don't like it at all.

I'm not saying that WRCA isn't imprinted on Scottish life like sugar crystals in slabs of Tablet; I just don't see how that follows from the first two sentences. i said Scottish life because living in Essex i have to look reaaly hard to find any evidence of Calvinism, residual or otherwise.

If Fin Smith has been starting for Northampton and played more than 20 minutes this season, then surely that puts him ahead of Ross The Wonder Kid according to Toonie's picking on form metric?

remeber what Michael Atherton said about John Wooden (who Toonie regards as a role model for aspiring coaches) he set standards in his personal life which he wanted his players to strive for: living u to those standards would be very easy if you were a monk.
Somehow I don't think Dancer ever got into the habit.

Happy to admit I had to Google some phrases in these posts, and I still don't have a feckin clue what you're both on about!

I expect a Jimbo lecture in response!

Mcsweens wrote:@TJ

People are already calling this into question and rightly so.
Thing is, they are now calling into question his honesty and cred too, and rightly so.

It's a big own goal

Yup - as ever its the lies and coverup that gets you not the action

Finn was pretty poor in the last 6N - IMO because he did not believe the gameplan was the best. Whatever the reason Finn was off his best. But he has been playing well for Racing. So who is at fault - finn or Toonie?

Its still salvagable for toonie. Bring Finn back in now Hastings is crocked and say "finn has recovered his form"

I think the basic issue is Finn and toonie do not agree on a gameplan.

Finn's back!

Thank god. There is common sense left!

I still don't expect him to start against NZ but at least a more secure bench option.

I'm so looking forward to the totally terrible toonie PR twaddle to explain his addition to the squad.

"Was he brought in to cover Hastings' injury?"

"No no, we'd always planned to bring him in at this late stage for a start against the all blacks, all part of the plan, we'll be starting him with tuipulotu at 12 and Harris at 13, blairhorn on the wing, thompson at fullback and we don't really need a 9"

I don't think toonie had any option. Nothing else was credible

Problem is being out of the camp means Finn will not be up to speed with everything which willbe an excuse to leave him on the bench

If it's Russell not agreeing with the gameplan surely he just needs to have his say and then keep schtum if the coaches disagree? Surely can't be that though and he went on a tour with Gatland and clearly they didn't agree.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If it's Russell not agreeing with the gameplan surely he just needs to have his say and then keep schtum if the coaches disagree? Surely can't be that though and he went on a tour with Gatland and clearly they didn't agree.

I think the issue is everyone knows Finn is right?  Remember the mad 38 all Calcutta cup?  Finn threw away the playbook at half time.  I don't think toonie ever forgave him

I think in the last 6N we could see in Finns actions and body language that he did not buy into what he was being told to do hence the apparent disinterest.  He knew it was the wrong gameplan and also knew if he didn't follow it he was out.  A very difficult place to be

Edit - I think with the lions it was rather different. Finn knew he was there as back up / plan B / hail mary option and accepted that.