Worcester-Sixways, LI and Wasps, WTF?

First topic message reminder :

And no, I don’t mean “welcome to Facebook” .
I logged onto the forum a few days ago to learn more about what has happened to these clubs expecting to a thread on this. But I had to write one instead. (Should I have used the title “who cares”?)

After listening to an OTB interview with an English reporter on the subject I gather that no staff working at Worcester have been paid for months, including those on low wages who will have missed mortgage payments and since their finances/ accounts still haven’t been properly kept they can’t yet be sold so there’s no hope of a white knight rescuing them. Their finances were completely mismanaged. Wasps appear to be in a better position and although they’ll be relegated will continue to exist. They are struggling to pay a tax bill and a debt incurred when they moved to London. (I thought this sounded weird, why move to a crazy expensive city packed with other sports teams?)

Below is an interesting article from the BBC on this topic.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/63053674
What shocked me about this article is the following: “ One club owner, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told BBC Sport: "I don't think there's one owner who'd tell you the model is working. It's completely flawed." Bristol Bears owner Stephen Lansdown recently said there is "just not enough money in the game,” If this is true, why is it true?

In the meantime , other clubs in the prem have voted to increase the salary cap at a time when many clubs are struggling with debts. This all sounds seriously worrying and suggests that clubs in the prem will soon have bigger financial problems in the future trying to pay even more in wages. Which suggests that more will start to go bust. And they voted to increase the salary cap? Am I missing something here or is this as dysfunctional as it sounds? And how can there not be enough money in the game in England? Rugby fans from other countries also regularly say how great the competition is, fans are absolutely showing up to see it, the competition is healthy, tv contracts are in place, cvc threw money at it recently. In theory things should be great. So….Welcome to Facebook?

(By the way this thread isn’t an invitation to slam the premiership or gloat. We are all rugby fans first and foremost and this could just as easily happen to your own club.)

Irish Londoner wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Bit of a disaster for Saracens going into Europe.  With the games now off unless they reschedule their last league game will be 13th Nov.  They don't play their next game against Edinburgh until 10th Dec.  That's a month off for them.  They will be well rested but will this help their form going into that first European block.

Presumably they'll organise a couple of friendlies in the gap to at least keep match fitness - maybe the other clubs that were playing Wasps/Wuss in this window will want to do the same thing?

Not the worst for them given November is full of international games. Sarries also have a PRC game at home to Tigers after 13th Nov so could use that game as a bit of a fitness session for some of their non-internationals that need it.

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:This is not good for rugby, not just the clubs involved.

That said, it looks like we're on our way to having 4 Welsh teams in the Premiership, not just 2!

You want your teams to join a league is financial disarray and is in the midst of a partial financial collapse?  A league with no vision, no creativity, no leadership.  And no prep for a financial crisis despite many teams just scraping by for over a decade?  How in bloody heck can there be no back-up plan for a league which is weak financially?  Incompetent, the league is managed like a minor league and is managed by minor leaguers.    

This proposal can't be good for Welsh Rugby.  The URC is just getting its sea legs.  Why go anywhere else?

The URC has an horrifically weak broadcast contract, is so poor as a competition that a major shareholder takes its players out for weeks to play a series of friendlies elsewhere, is kept alive by SA TV money allowing the SARU to bribe its way in, can't generate a crowd outside of two IRFU branches and comes with next to zero retail or corporate interest in Wales.

Why fly to Bloemfontein when you can drive to Bath?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:This is not good for rugby, not just the clubs involved.

That said, it looks like we're on our way to having 4 Welsh teams in the Premiership, not just 2!

You want your teams to join a league is financial disarray and is in the midst of a partial financial collapse?  A league with no vision, no creativity, no leadership.  And no prep for a financial crisis despite many teams just scraping by for over a decade?  How in bloody heck can there be no back-up plan for a league which is weak financially?  Incompetent, the league is managed like a minor league and is managed by minor leaguers.    

This proposal can't be good for Welsh Rugby.  The URC is just getting its sea legs.  Why go anywhere else?

Good god, what an awful post.

I agree. But is it not true?

doctor_grey wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:This is not good for rugby, not just the clubs involved.

That said, it looks like we're on our way to having 4 Welsh teams in the Premiership, not just 2!

You want your teams to join a league is financial disarray and is in the midst of a partial financial collapse?  A league with no vision, no creativity, no leadership.  And no prep for a financial crisis despite many teams just scraping by for over a decade?  How in bloody heck can there be no back-up plan for a league which is weak financially?  Incompetent, the league is managed like a minor league and is managed by minor leaguers.    

This proposal can't be good for Welsh Rugby.  The URC is just getting its sea legs.  Why go anywhere else?

Good god, what an awful post.

I agree.  But is it not true?  

Not the bits about the English Premiership, no.

doctor_grey wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:This is not good for rugby, not just the clubs involved.

That said, it looks like we're on our way to having 4 Welsh teams in the Premiership, not just 2!

You want your teams to join a league is financial disarray and is in the midst of a partial financial collapse?  A league with no vision, no creativity, no leadership.  And no prep for a financial crisis despite many teams just scraping by for over a decade?  How in bloody heck can there be no back-up plan for a league which is weak financially?  Incompetent, the league is managed like a minor league and is managed by minor leaguers.    

This proposal can't be good for Welsh Rugby.  The URC is just getting its sea legs.  Why go anywhere else?

Good god, what an awful post.

I agree.  But is it not true?  

As I've just destroyed it above, not it isn't true.

I see there's a tabled bid of £50m for Wasps Holdings, dependent upon the receipt of the P share.

Yet nobody has offered a penny for Glasgow, Edinburgh or Dragons.

Please can the URC supporters explain why, if the URC is a superior league, there are no bidders for URC teams that are up for sale but there are interested parties in PRL teams that are available.

Thanks.

PhilBB wrote:I see there's a tabled bid of £50m for Wasps Holdings, dependent upon the receipt of the P share.

Yet nobody has offered a penny for Glasgow, Edinburgh or Dragons.

Please can the URC supporters explain why, if the URC is a superior league, there are no bidders for URC teams that are up for sale but there are interested parties in PRL teams that are available.

Thanks.

To be fair Worcester and LI are also up for sale with LI available for nothing on the proviso the person taking it on is a fan willing to invest in the club and drive it forward.

Not that I'm interested in member swinging, my league is the best stuff. It's all good.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:This is not good for rugby, not just the clubs involved.

That said, it looks like we're on our way to having 4 Welsh teams in the Premiership, not just 2!

You want your teams to join a league is financial disarray and is in the midst of a partial financial collapse?  A league with no vision, no creativity, no leadership.  And no prep for a financial crisis despite many teams just scraping by for over a decade?  How in bloody heck can there be no back-up plan for a league which is weak financially?  Incompetent, the league is managed like a minor league and is managed by minor leaguers.    

This proposal can't be good for Welsh Rugby.  The URC is just getting its sea legs.  Why go anywhere else?

Good god, what an awful post.

I agree.  But is it not true?  

Not the bits about the English Premiership, no.

What about the Premiership is not accurate?  I thought my critique, though blunt, was also fairly mild.  The league is in financial disarray, it has no vision for the kind of business it wants to be, seems very resistant to change on the business side, has had no real view (or interest???) of the overall financial health of its own product, and had no plan or contingency against worsening economic conditions.  How is this not true?  And how is that a business well managed?

doctor_grey wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:This is not good for rugby, not just the clubs involved.

That said, it looks like we're on our way to having 4 Welsh teams in the Premiership, not just 2!

You want your teams to join a league is financial disarray and is in the midst of a partial financial collapse?  A league with no vision, no creativity, no leadership.  And no prep for a financial crisis despite many teams just scraping by for over a decade?  How in bloody heck can there be no back-up plan for a league which is weak financially?  Incompetent, the league is managed like a minor league and is managed by minor leaguers.    

This proposal can't be good for Welsh Rugby.  The URC is just getting its sea legs.  Why go anywhere else?

Good god, what an awful post.

I agree.  But is it not true?  

Not the bits about the English Premiership, no.

What about the Premiership is not accurate?  I thought my critique, though blunt, was also fairly mild.  The league is in financial disarray, it has no vision for the kind of business it wants to be, seems very resistant to change on the business side, has had no real view (or interest???) of the overall financial health of its own product, and had no plan or contingency against worsening economic conditions.  How is this not true?  And how is that a business well managed?

Now you see doctor, what you have here is the Welsh club rugby fan who absolutely won't have a bad word said against the PRL for fear they may hear him say it and not invite his team into the warm loving embrace of the English league.

It seems to stem from the fact that his team is a bit of an irrelevance these days.

They also hate all things Irish.

It's made them quite angry toward there own league, but although they are loud I think in reality they are few (I'm sure they would argue that, actually, they are the majority. But I'm not so sure)

https://youtu.be/V2f-MZ2HRHQ

Apologies for that.

I see the Barbarians are now scheduled to play Quins, Bath, and Saints. If nothing else, this should be profitable for the Barbarians.

Any word on Wasps players getting contracts elsewhere?

Maine man wrote:Any word on Wasps players getting contracts elsewhere?

Just rumours thus far.

Launchbury to Quins. This would make sense to me. Given Isiekwe is out long enough for injury dispensation signing I thought he might end up at Sarries tbh. 

Jack Willis is unsurprisingly rumoured to be in touch with most Premiership clubs and Bordeaux. Amongst them Bristol - they had to lose players ahead of this season due to a salary cap mishap so would presumably need to be injury dispensation again. Tigers speculative linked but I think that's due to rumours Tommy Reffell might go to Wales, whereas last I heard was Reffell rumoured to have signed a long term contract prior to being capped.

Barbeary apparently in discussion with Bristol too.

Charlie Atkinson chatting to Tigers. This could make more sense than Willis as Burns is out of contract at the end of the season, we could do with a younger fly-half on the books. Tigers have Nadolo and Hegarty leaving midseason too so space for a short term signing of a young fly-half should be in the budget.

Biyi Alo apparently a target for some Top 14 clubs. Due to their season length they tend to carry a lot of props and like massive ones so would seem to make sense.

king_carlos wrote:

Maine man wrote:Any word on Wasps players getting contracts elsewhere?

Just rumours thus far.

Launchbury to Quins. This would make sense to me. Given Isiekwe is out long enough for injury dispensation signing I thought he might end up at Sarries tbh. 

Jack Willis is unsurprisingly rumoured to be in touch with most Premiership clubs and Bordeaux. Amongst them Bristol - they had to lose players ahead of this season due to a salary cap mishap so would presumably need to be injury dispensation again. Tigers speculative linked but I think that's due to rumours Tommy Reffell might go to Wales, whereas last I heard was Reffell rumoured to have signed a long term contract prior to being capped.

Barbeary apparently in discussion with Bristol too.

Charlie Atkinson chatting to Tigers. This could make more sense than Willis as Burns is out of contract at the end of the season, we could do with a younger fly-half on the books. Tigers have Nadolo and Hegarty leaving midseason too so space for a short term signing of a young fly-half should be in the budget.

Biyi Alo apparently a target for some Top 14 clubs. Due to their season length they tend to carry a lot of props and like massive ones so would seem to make sense.

I think someone mentioned Ulster were previously linked with the uncapped Willis due to him being eligible for Ireland.

As a fill in I see Harlequins have announced a Baa Baas match. Scott Robertson coaching the away side.

doctor_grey wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:This is not good for rugby, not just the clubs involved.

That said, it looks like we're on our way to having 4 Welsh teams in the Premiership, not just 2!

You want your teams to join a league is financial disarray and is in the midst of a partial financial collapse?  A league with no vision, no creativity, no leadership.  And no prep for a financial crisis despite many teams just scraping by for over a decade?  How in bloody heck can there be no back-up plan for a league which is weak financially?  Incompetent, the league is managed like a minor league and is managed by minor leaguers.    

This proposal can't be good for Welsh Rugby.  The URC is just getting its sea legs.  Why go anywhere else?

Good god, what an awful post.

I agree.  But is it not true?  

Not the bits about the English Premiership, no.

What about the Premiership is not accurate?  I thought my critique, though blunt, was also fairly mild.  The league is in financial disarray, it has no vision for the kind of business it wants to be, seems very resistant to change on the business side, has had no real view (or interest???) of the overall financial health of its own product, and had no plan or contingency against worsening economic conditions.  How is this not true?  And how is that a business well managed?

The English Premiership is the only league that has reduced it's salary cap to try and be more sustainable. The current cap is around half of what the biggest spenders in the URC spend (Leinster). The URC doesn't even have a cap!!! That's togetherness, leadership and a strong product. If it's not a strong product, then you'll have to tell me why tv companies pay more to broadcast it, despite having a smaller viewing population that the URC.

The health of the finances in the English Premeirship face the same struggles as they did in 2019, or 2015 or when England won the world cup or when English sides won the Heineken Cup. Because they're privately owned. That's the model. They take on debt. Otherwise there's no pro rugby in England. Private businesses face uncertainty. They go bust. Sometime because of economics, sometimes because of bad management, sometimes because of a worldwide pandemic. A local cinema here closed yesterday. It happens.

I'll say again: Two teams in the URC recently went to the wall, but not a sausage on that. No "URC has no leadership, we must have a review of the finances in the URC". Nothing. Nada. Zero.

It's not URC v PRL debate though. Both are different models financed different ways.

carpet baboon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:This is not good for rugby, not just the clubs involved.

That said, it looks like we're on our way to having 4 Welsh teams in the Premiership, not just 2!

You want your teams to join a league is financial disarray and is in the midst of a partial financial collapse?  A league with no vision, no creativity, no leadership.  And no prep for a financial crisis despite many teams just scraping by for over a decade?  How in bloody heck can there be no back-up plan for a league which is weak financially?  Incompetent, the league is managed like a minor league and is managed by minor leaguers.    

This proposal can't be good for Welsh Rugby.  The URC is just getting its sea legs.  Why go anywhere else?

Good god, what an awful post.

I agree.  But is it not true?  

Not the bits about the English Premiership, no.

What about the Premiership is not accurate?  I thought my critique, though blunt, was also fairly mild.  The league is in financial disarray, it has no vision for the kind of business it wants to be, seems very resistant to change on the business side, has had no real view (or interest???) of the overall financial health of its own product, and had no plan or contingency against worsening economic conditions.  How is this not true?  And how is that a business well managed?

Now you see doctor, what you have here is the Welsh club rugby fan who absolutely won't have a bad word said against the PRL for fear they may hear him say it and not invite his team into the warm loving embrace of the English league.

It seems to stem from the fact that his team is a bit of an irrelevance these days.

They also hate all things Irish.

It's made them quite angry toward there own league, but although they are loud I think in reality they are few (I'm sure they would argue that, actually, they are the majority. But I'm not so sure)

Nothing wrong with being blunt providing it is accurate, not sure the PRL is in financial disarray. Leicester, Exeter, Bristol, Saracens, Gloucester, Saints, Quins and Newcastle all own their own grounds and have balance sheets which have survived to varying degrees, the two years loss of income. Bath may have struggled had they pushed the button on a new ground but hesitated plus on going objections through the courts have held it up. London clubs Wasps and LI who strived for their own stadia are the ones in trouble. Worcester has just been allegedly badly managed. That just leaves Sale, not sure what us happening there but doesn't appear to be any issues.

Also not sure anyone hates the irish either, their model has had an era of relative success with their two main sides, time will tell if it is sustainable. Twenty plus years ago Australia were going to take over the rugby world with their brand of rugby and successful test side. Times change and concentrated ownership becomes extremely risky when success on the pitch fades. No structure is perfect but in sport you need a moral hazard and the prospect of failure together with robust rules. It is probably the rules that need a further upgrade.

There is no reason the PRL shouldn't have an equivalent TV deal to the French but it hasn't happened yet. I think eventually it will and private equity certainly seem to think so.

The cap in the prem is due to rise again as well. The reduction was merely temporary, so there'll be cash splashed from a few when they have the ability to spend more . As for togetherness you can probably point to cheating by at least 2 clubs as hiking prices for others and interrupting squad building.

Bit from the BBC:

'The "raw emotions" of the crisis at Wasps could be seen in the tears of their players when they were told of mass redundancies at the club, says the administrator who delivered the news.

A total of 167 staff and players have lost their jobs, while Wasps will also be relegated from the Premiership.

Administrator Andrew Sheridan said it was "pretty tough" news to break.

"There were a lot of tears. A lot of men - international rugby players - bawling their eyes out," Sheridan said.

"What struck me was it's such a tight-knit family - it was like losing a family member. You could see the emotion."

Sheridan, partner at specialist business advisory firm FRP, said they are "hopeful and confident" of quickly putting forward a potential interested party who can take the club out of administration.

"Where it goes from there, it is difficult to say," he told BBC Radio 5 Live's Rugby Union Weekly podcast.

The Rugby Football Union is holding daily talks with the administrators and Premiership Rugby to see if "there is any possibility of a buyer taking over the club."

RFU chair Tom Ilube said: "We believe it is right to keep working with all parties to give the club the best chance of long-term survival if at all possible. We all feel for the fans, players, volunteers and everyone with a connection to the club."

And chief executive Bill Sweeney added: "The RFU and Premiership Rugby have been working for some time to develop a sustainable model for rugby to deliver long term prosperity for the sport.

"Wasps and Worcester entering administration has accelerated these plans and reinforced their importance."

Sheridan, meanwhile, also confirmed FRP are looking at the possibility of avoiding relegation on appeal, as they look to prove the insolvency event was out of the club's control.

"Already we've had the necessary criteria and forms sent to us by RFU head of legal," he said.

"It's quite a process and something we will look at applying for."

While the club - both their rugby and netball teams - explore how they may be able to come out of administration, players and staff have been left without incomes.

Wasps' demise and the mass offload of players follows the downfall of Worcester Warriors, their Premiership rivals from across the Midlands who went into administration just 21 days earlier.

'Hardest day I've had in sport'

Wasps number eight Alfie Barbeary said "it's a bit of a scary time" as he looks for somewhere new to play - and tries to deal with how to pay the bills.

"Yesterday was very strange and probably the hardest day I've had in the sport," the 22-year-old told BBC Radio 5 Live.

"Obviously there's Worcester, the market's very liquid, full of players at the moment, so there's going to be a lot of boys struggling to find new clubs.

"It's going to be a tough time for rugby."

Wasps lock Elliott Stooke said the club's collapse has been "brutal" and admits he has not "got a clue what to do now".

While the 29-year-old has instructed his agent to try find him a new club, the former Bath and Gloucester player knows opportunities will be limited.

"It was a tough, dark day," he told BBC CWR. "I wouldn't know how to get into a real-world job.

"Thankfully I have people out there looking out for me and looking for a job for me. But this has been my day-to-day job for 10 or 11 years, it's completely heartbreaking.

"The players, the backroom staff, the kit man, the chef, the cleaners, the physio, all these people that make up a great team, they are all jobless at the moment and it's absolutely devastating."

'There isn't a Wasps any more'
Wasps' most successful former owner is music mogul Chris Wright, who, at 78, is still the club's honorary life president.

Under his ownership, from 1996 to 2008, Wasps won 11 trophies in 11 seasons including their two European Cups, in 2004 and 2007, and their four Premiership titles - in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2008.

Wright told the BBC Sports Desk podcast: "It's unbelievably sad that so many people have been made redundant.

"I feel really, really sorry for everyone there. I also feel sorry for all of the fans over the years, some that I partied with in car parks at Twickenham when we won European Cups and Premiership titles.

"I know how much they love the club. I know the tradition and all of the ex-players even going back to the amateur era.

"This is all family - and it's a family that has died. And the chances are it will never be seen again because when it goes, it loses its 'P share', its right to participate at the top table of rugby. It's never going to be the same.

"There may be an amateur Wasps playing in a very minor league, but it's over.

"It's the life and the passion and tradition for so many people that has gone, including myself. We always used to say, once a Wasp, always a Wasp.

"There isn't a Wasps any more. It's terrible."'

Guardian:

'Viewed through the narrow prism of current events, one name leaps off England’s squad list for the autumn series. A penny for poor Jack Willis’s thoughts as he seeks to balance playing at the highest level with being made redundant at Wasps. Suddenly, he is also that rarest of unicorns: an English international primarily employed by his national union, not his club.

Forget about central contracts being a future possibility because in effect they are already here. If the Rugby Football Union really wanted to be bold it would jump in and offer Willis – and possibly one or two of his Wasps clubmates – a retainer until next year’s World Cup. Followed by other players once the eight-year professional game agreement expires in 2024.

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Let’s pause for a moment and contemplate the potential ripple effect.

General view of the Coventry Building Society Arena after a Wasps match in January
RFU and Premiership to face DCMS inquiry as Wasps confirm redundancies
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Having dawdled and missed its chance when the game turned professional in the 1990s, the RFU would be back in control. The national head coach, as in Ireland, would have a far greater say regarding his players’ workload. The whole complexion of squad announcements would also change. There would still be scope for rising newcomers such as, in this instance, the excellent Harlequins wing Cadan Murley, but the majority of players would be on annual or multi-year deals with the union.

Progress? If you are a cash-strapped club forced to pay top dollar for internationals who are seldom available, it is a double-edged sword. Your wage bill goes down but you also lose your prime marketing asset for even bigger chunks of the season. A more sustainable but less star-studded Premiership? It could yet unfold that way.

When it was put to Eddie Jones that the job of England head coach might just be about to become simpler, there was absolutely no air-punching. There was a very simple reason for that: if anyone is going to benefit from a changing contractual landscape it will be his successors.

“It’s got nothing to do with me, mate,” he said, aware of the comments on the subject by his chief executive, Bill Sweeney, on Sunday. “In the next 12 months, as Bill suggested, there may be changes and I look forward to seeing them from afar.”

The talented Willis, though, could theoretically be a guinea pig, assuming another club do not snap him up before the RFU gets its wallet out.

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When fit, there is no question the flanker ranks as one of England’s top 30-odd players; as a specialist in breakdown impacts it would also make sense for him, as will now be the case, to be as fresh as possible for major tournaments.

Eddie Jones at Twickenham on Monday.
Eddie Jones at Twickenham on Monday. Photograph: David Rogers/Getty Images
“He’s not training with his club, obviously, so we’ve got some of our staff working with him to make sure he’s in the best physical condition,” Jones said.

Sure, but what about the mental stress? Like every other Wasps employee – and seriously good people such as their enlightened director of rugby, Lee Blackett, deserve particular sympathy – Willis would not be human if he did not feel completely gutted right now. Jones, though, has made clear that, from the management’s perspective, moping is not an option.

“Jack’s got to get on with it. Everyone feels for Wasps – I feel for their players, their staff and their fans – but good players make the most of it. He’s got a history of resilience and he’s a good, tough kid. There’s an opportunity for him to be in his absolutely best physical condition.”

The wider implications for English rugby of the Premiership’s continuing meltdown, even so, cannot, be totally overlooked. First Worcester, now Wasps. A bumpy domestic backdrop and a wage freeze might also tempt more players to move abroad, putting pressure on the RFU’s policy that only Premiership-based players are eligible for England. If Maro Itoje, say, can earn twice as much at Racing 92 as at home, the RFU might have to start looking at post-World Cup overseas “sabbaticals”, like the one New Zealand have just granted Ardie Savea.

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In the shorter-term, though, Jones is putting on a brave face. The majority of competitions, in his experience, endure growing pains at some stage. “These cycles happen all the time in sport, so I wouldn’t get too depressed or upset about it.”

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Maybe, but for Wasps’ England hopefuls such as Joe Launchbury, Paolo Odogwu, Gabriel Oghre or (the currently injured) Alfie Barbeary, that will be no real consolation.

Surely, too, the off-field upheaval will not enhance his squad’s collective mood, with many of their best mates suddenly unemployed? “I’m not sure how much that reverberates through the players’ heads,” Jones said. “All the best players are pretty single-minded. I’m sure at times they have conversations over double espressos but, generally speaking, I think their focus will be on what they can do.”

Henry Slade, Joe Marchant and Elliot Daly – to name but three omitted centres – will certainly be feeling seriously focused. England still have Owen Farrell and Manu Tuilagi, backed up by Guy Porter and young Will Joseph, but Tuilagi and Slade feels like a potent combination when they are fully fit and firing.

The head coach did have some consoling words for Slade after his summer shoulder operation – “He’s a good player, Henry, and there’s no doubt he’ll be back in the squad … we just want to see him have some consistent form for his club” – but, ultimately, Jones sees squad sessions as a more reliable proving ground than club games. “You can never use the club game as a barometer of what the Test game’s going to be like. That’s fool’s gold, because it’s different.”

Which, from an RFU perspective, brings us right back to where we started. Central contracts, anyone?'

And again, George not as keen but he's part of a club who pay very well (in the very recent past too well!):

'England’s senior players are demanding a big say in the future shape of domestic rugby as the Premiership lurches from one financial crisis to another.

The hooker Jamie George admits the demise of Wasps and Worcester has awoken all professional players to the stark reality of the sport’s finances and the growing threat it poses to their career prospects.

Wasps' Jack Willis breaks clear to score his sides first try during the Gallagher Premiership Rugby match between Wasps and Northampton Saints on 9 October 2022.
Jack Willis offers RFU chance to test whether central contracts can work
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George, who will miss the autumn internationals with a foot injury sustained on club duty with Saracens, has been as shocked as anyone else by the swift demise of two of the 13 Premiership sides who kicked off the season last month, with at least one other club understood to be on the brink of a similar fate.

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“This has opened the eyes of a lot of players, to be honest,” said George, capped 69 times by England. “It’s made people realise that rugby isn’t in the place we thought it was. We thought we were comfortable and that Wasps and Worcester would never go down. Now Joe Launchbury doesn’t have a job. Dan Robson doesn’t have a job and 167 other people at Wasps don’t have jobs. As players we need to recognise that and think: ‘What can we do?’”

Finding the right answers, George believes, will be simpler if the players are closely involved in discussions about where the league goes from here. “I think the players need to be at the forefront of it. Players are going to want certain things and how it works logistically and financially might be two separate things. But why would you not have them in the room? I think that’s absolutely vital.

“Whether you’re a senior or a junior player, this is a concern. It’s been the darkest week in [English club] rugby history, hasn’t it? I don’t have all the answers but I am hoping people behind the scenes at the Rugby Football Union, Premiership Rugby and the Rugby Players’ Association are having these conversations.

“Maybe it took something like this to create some form of change. It’s horrific that it had to be this way but if we can channel this into English rugby becoming more secure that’s probably the only thing we can hope for.”

The 31-year-old George, though, believes central contracts offer only a partial solution and that players remain desperate to represent their club sides. “Fundamentally my priority is playing for Saracens. They are the club that I love. If I then get picked for England off the back of it, that’s fantastic. I wouldn’t want a central contract to take away from the importance of the club game.


“Whatever we do has to enhance the club game and therefore enhance the international game. I think I speak on behalf of a lot of players in that they want to play for their clubs. That’s why players need a voice in this conversation. It would be very easy to look at this commercially and say: ‘Let’s just make England as big as we can.’ For me, that isn’t the answer and it’s not what players want.”'

carpet baboon wrote:

Now you see doctor, what you have here is the Welsh club rugby fan who absolutely won't have a bad word said against the PRL for fear they may hear him say it and not invite his team into the warm loving embrace of the English league.

It seems to stem from the fact that his team is a bit of an irrelevance these days.

They also hate all things Irish.

It's made them quite angry toward there own league, but although they are loud I think in reality they are few (I'm sure they would argue that, actually, they are the majority. But I'm not so sure)

The above clearly falls foul of the following https://www.606v2.com/t70861p50-urc-round-5#4059293

Update, Bath now have a green light for a new stadium development. Despite the fact they might get relegated next season !
https://www.bathrugby.com/news/supreme-court-determines-1922-covenants-not-a-barrier-to-redevelopment-at-the-rec/

Recwatcher16 wrote:Update, Bath now have a green light for a new stadium development. Despite the fact they might get relegated next season !
https://www.bathrugby.com/news/supreme-court-determines-1922-covenants-not-a-barrier-to-redevelopment-at-the-rec/

I wouldnt think anyone will be relegated this season. Wasps and Worcester have seen to that.

So if Wasps and Worcester have been relegated and they are not bringing in replacements (assuming they then stick to a 11 team league), should 8 still qualify for the Champions Cup?

Going to be a hard case to argue.

LordDowlais wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Update, Bath now have a green light for a new stadium development. Despite the fact they might get relegated next season !
https://www.bathrugby.com/news/supreme-court-determines-1922-covenants-not-a-barrier-to-redevelopment-at-the-rec/

I wouldnt think anyone will be relegated this season. Wasps and Worcester have seen to that.

TBF Recwatcher did say next season...

Welshmushroom wrote:So if Wasps and Worcester have been relegated and they are not bringing in replacements (assuming they then stick to a 11 team league), should 8 still qualify for the Champions Cup?

Going to be a hard case to argue.  

It would be very unfair to give the top 8 places in the league automatic qualification to Europe's top table. Especially when the PRL said at the start that they wanted things fairer and they wanted to make the second tier more attractive.

Should be the top 6 teams at most.

There's a relevant question re European places but that isn't justa question for the champions Cup places but overall. It should always be reviewed when leagues change.

Oakdene wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Update, Bath now have a green light for a new stadium development. Despite the fact they might get relegated next season !
https://www.bathrugby.com/news/supreme-court-determines-1922-covenants-not-a-barrier-to-redevelopment-at-the-rec/

I wouldnt think anyone will be relegated this season. Wasps and Worcester have seen to that.

TBF Recwatcher did say next season...

I think the Bath city fathers read the tea leaves and realised it is better to build a new stadium than lose the Rugby club.

doctor_grey wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Update, Bath now have a green light for a new stadium development. Despite the fact they might get relegated next season !
https://www.bathrugby.com/news/supreme-court-determines-1922-covenants-not-a-barrier-to-redevelopment-at-the-rec/

I wouldnt think anyone will be relegated this season. Wasps and Worcester have seen to that.

TBF Recwatcher did say next season...

I think the Bath city fathers read the tea leaves and realised it is better to build a new stadium than lose the Rugby club.  

I'm glad they're staying at the Rec rather than going to some out of town stadium. Love visiting Bath.

Stumbled across what I believe was the main Coventry City supporters forum.

The vitriol and sheer glee at Wasps going under was overwhelming and extremely spiteful.

Regardless of difference it was a sad and pathetic thing to see.
Only confirms my opinion that turning my back on soccer in the 90's was the right thing to do

Article on the Beeb from Baxter - saying that clubs going into administration should loose their P-shares
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63317864

Its a horrid situation for Wasps and Warriors fans and players, but I kind of understand what he is saying about there being consequences to going into administration.

Is there someone that can explain why there was a different scenario when Richmond and Lon Welsh went bust and were relegated to the bottom of the league structure!
The only thing I can think of are these P-Shares (and not having them). Richmond because it might have been before the P-Share structure, and Lon Welsh perhaps because they weren't in the Prem long enough to have purchased them.
Does anyone else have some insight?

propdavid_london wrote:Article on the Beeb from Baxter - saying that clubs going into administration should loose their P-shares
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63317864

Its a horrid situation for Wasps and Warriors fans and players, but I kind of understand what he is saying about there being consequences to going into administration.  

Is there someone that can explain why there was a different scenario when Richmond and Lon Welsh went bust and were relegated to the bottom of the league structure!
The only thing I can think of are these P-Shares (and not having them).  Richmond because it might have been before the P-Share structure, and Lon Welsh perhaps because they weren't in the Prem long enough to have purchased them.  
Does anyone else have some insight?  

I think Leeds bought Richmond's P Share and then they had to sell it to Exeter when they went under.

I can't recall Welsh having a P-Share. It was big topic at the time as they were receiving substantially less than the other teams from TV rights etc I seem to recall.

Sounds like it might all be linked to the P-Share then. I wonder if Leeds were forced to sell their P-Shares or if it was their choice to pay off debt.
Either way its hard to imagine that Wasps and Worcester wouldn't be asked the same by their administrators.

But, it would be interesting to see who would be the likely buyers of their P-Shares when there is no newly promoted team - and the remaining prem sides aren't swimming in cash.

This is quite a good piece: https://www.rugbyworld.com/tournaments/gallagher-premiership/what-are-p-shares-in-premiership-rugby-146492

I'd assume that the P Shares of Wasps and Wuss would be held in trust until someone makes an offer for them. Other than Ealing I can't see a Championship club having the money/desire to buy them.

propdavid_london wrote:But, it would be interesting to see who would be the likely buyers of their P-Shares when there is no newly promoted team

Just looking at the Championship table, Ealing and Jersey at the top look unlikely candidates (although I suppose they might have the cash if the ground rules were relaxed). Nottingham, Doncaster and Coventry presumably in the opposite situation with local stadiums they could use but questionable backing?

If another Prem Club were to purchase additional P-Shares, would that in turn allow them access to even more central funding? Or a bigger slide of the pie? Or a bigger say/more voting rights on administrative discussions.

Just thinking that it might be appealing to someone with deep pockets like Bruce Craig etc.

The RFU should buy them. Both sets.

Ashley Beck has signed for my home town club Merthyr since Worcester have folded.

Ashley Beck moving on up…. Said nobody ever!

mikey_dragon wrote:Ashley Beck moving on up…. Said nobody ever!

Either way. It's a good signing for us.

What was this edited for ? I only put a yahoo emogi on here.

Irish Londoner wrote:This is quite a good piece: https://www.rugbyworld.com/tournaments/gallagher-premiership/what-are-p-shares-in-premiership-rugby-146492

I'd assume that the P Shares of Wasps and Wuss would be held in trust until someone makes an offer for them. Other than Ealing I can't see a Championship club having the money/desire to buy them.

If you were an investor and you saw this mess, would you want to invest in a Premiership club?

I would like to know the level of involvement from CVC with this. Are they also part of the problem? If part of the solution, it is difficult to see. One would expect venture capital to always watch the bottom line and be prepared for most eventualities. As a former Citicorp company, the apparent lack of action and silence on their end is surprising.

I admit freely I don't know how the P-shares work. Seems like something else the Premiership founding fathers over complicated (and consequently buggered up)? Should be simple: If you play in the league, you get an equal cut of the money. Plus the one year share for a relegated club. Full stop. Why should this be more complicated than that?

doctor_grey wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:This is quite a good piece: https://www.rugbyworld.com/tournaments/gallagher-premiership/what-are-p-shares-in-premiership-rugby-146492

I'd assume that the P Shares of Wasps and Wuss would be held in trust until someone makes an offer for them. Other than Ealing I can't see a Championship club having the money/desire to buy them.

If you were an investor and you saw this mess, would you want to invest in a Premiership club?  

I would like to know the level of involvement from CVC with this.  Are they also part of the problem?  If part of the solution, it is difficult to see.  One would expect venture capital to always watch the bottom line and be prepared for most eventualities.  As a former Citicorp company, the apparent lack of action and silence on their end is surprising.    

I admit freely I don't know how the P-shares work.  Seems like something else the Premiership founding fathers over complicated (and consequently buggered up)?  Should be simple:  If you play in the league, you get an equal cut of the money.  Plus the one year share for a relegated club.  Full stop.  Why should this be more complicated than that?

I think the original idea was that the P Share owning clubs would stay as a nice cartel sharing out the TV money and other funding and that the clubs outside the group would be so financially disadvantaged that they'd never present a serious challenge to the self-styled big clubs. The lack of a fair share does impact on any newly promoted team who hasn't got one whilst providing an asset as parachute money to the relegated Premiership team.
I know that some of the Welsh posters on here are not very happy with the way the WRU run the game but when you look at the mess that's been ongoing in England ever since professionalism came in, it's an object lesson in how not to do it.

Irish Londoner wrote:
I know that some of the Welsh posters on here are not very happy with the way the WRU run the game but when you look at the mess that's been ongoing in England ever since professionalism came in, it's an object lesson in how not to do it.

PRL are a bastion of business sense in relation to the WRU.

Irish Londoner wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:This is quite a good piece: https://www.rugbyworld.com/tournaments/gallagher-premiership/what-are-p-shares-in-premiership-rugby-146492

I'd assume that the P Shares of Wasps and Wuss would be held in trust until someone makes an offer for them. Other than Ealing I can't see a Championship club having the money/desire to buy them.

If you were an investor and you saw this mess, would you want to invest in a Premiership club?  

I would like to know the level of involvement from CVC with this.  Are they also part of the problem?  If part of the solution, it is difficult to see.  One would expect venture capital to always watch the bottom line and be prepared for most eventualities.  As a former Citicorp company, the apparent lack of action and silence on their end is surprising.    

I admit freely I don't know how the P-shares work.  Seems like something else the Premiership founding fathers over complicated (and consequently buggered up)?  Should be simple:  If you play in the league, you get an equal cut of the money.  Plus the one year share for a relegated club.  Full stop.  Why should this be more complicated than that?

I think the original idea was that the P Share owning clubs would stay as a nice cartel sharing out the TV money and other funding and that the clubs outside the group would be so financially disadvantaged that they'd never present a serious challenge to the self-styled big clubs. The lack of a fair share does impact on any newly promoted team who hasn't got one whilst providing an asset as parachute money to the relegated Premiership team.
I know that some of the Welsh posters on here are not very happy with the way the WRU run the game but when you look at the mess that's been ongoing in England ever since professionalism came in, it's an object lesson in how not to do it.

As a doc I have worked with a number of NY area American pro and uni sports teams.  Most people in those teams including  the coaches, med area, and front office, and especially the players, are usually very happy to talk about their teams and also how things work.  So I have had a fairly good look into seeing how successful and profitable are run.  They are clearly not the case of simply minting money - there are significant numbers of people in the teams and the league offices whose jobs are to maximise return and constantly be on the look-out for few ways to engage fans, find commercial opportunities, improve the experiences for players and fans, and so on.  This is a huge amount of energy and effort.  If we had 10% of this in Rugby, we would conquer the world.  

Instead.....

Nice to see Cardiff and Bristol set up a couple of friendlies to fill in the hole in the fixture list.

Wow. The dream.

So how do you all see that the premiership will recover its financial viability? The last that I heard there is an accumulative debt of €500 million, the salary cap has increased, in spite of many clubs objections to this, and the cvc money appears to be spent. What’s the plan? Are clubs making individual decisions only and hoping they’ll be fine or is there any over-riding plan for all the pro English clubs taking shape?