Where the reality does not support the myth

On the back of the ongoing debate about the stoppage in the first Lewis McCall fight and whether the stoppage was appropriate or premature and some recent discussion as to the length of the delay in the first Cooper Ali fight thought I would ask what fights or results people thought had developed a mythology all of their own which in your opinion did not support the actual facts of the events. As I did on the original thread will state I don’t think there was any issue with the stoppage in Lewis McCall, he was on unsteady legs so can have no complaints. However as this has been more than adequately covered in the original thread will not revisit it in depth here.

However another fight I think has developed a life all of its own with the passage of time on here is the “robbery” in the Calzaghe Reid fight. I remember watching this at the time and reading the reports in the Boxing press and my recollection is the fight was close but Calzaghe had the better of it and got a close but deserved decision, having rewatched the fight on a couple of occasions I have seen little to change my mind. However when one reads the all too frequent debates about Joe’s career or legacy, this fight is often portrayed as a flat out robbery or a fight that raised a massive controversy at the time, a view I am not sure either the fight or the reaction in the press in anyway justified. Will say the fight was probably close enough to justify a rematch but was by no means the highway robbery many at one extreme of the Calzaghe debate would like to portray it as.

Are there other fights or events that have developed a life of their own with the passage of time? Would also appreciate it if we could exercise a rare measure of self control and not turn this into a Joe is an all time great/bum debate, although I’m not holding my breath on that one.

Tyson vs Douglas and the long count myth.

The amount of Tyson fanboys who would constantly spout the 13 second count dribble used to make me cry big salty sad tears.

The second Sharkey v Schmeling fight.

It's passed into folklore, following Jacobs' famous " We wuz robbed " outburst, that Schmeling was shafted in dropping a decision to Sharkey second time out.

Referee and sole judge Gunboat Smith gave it to Sharkey 10 - 4 - 1 and insisted that Schemeling did nothing for the first two thirds of the fight. I've never been able to find the complete fight on film, and I'm not even sure that it has survived, but I've seen bits and pieces of it and on that - admittedly scant - evidence I've no doubt that Sharkey was the better man and I can easily believe the referee's analysis.

Another would be Cooper v Bugner. Harry Carpenter's outburst at the end of that one persuaded every casual observer that Cooper had been shafted. In reality, the fight was very close - for the record, I thought Bugner won it - and nothing like the travesty which Carpenter described.

HumanWindmill wrote:The second Sharkey v Schmeling fight.

This is a good shout, Windy. Like you, I've not seen the whole fight in it's entirety, but from what I have seen it was Sharkey who was producing the better work, which many contemporaries of that time seemed to agree with. Oddly enough, I watched the 'Max Schmeling: The Fist of the Reich' film at the weekend and, as expected, the second Sharkey fight is presented as a Dick Turpin-esque case.

I think it has been covered on 606v2 before, but I think the first Louis-Conn fight is applicable. There's a misconception that Conn absolutely dominated from the off, that he simply played it safe all night with a stick and move tactic and that his demise in the thirteenth round only came as a result of engaging Louis for the first time, and that he essentially threw the fight away rather than Louis winning it.

Again, not the case, or at least not how I see it. Conn actually stood and traded with Louis on numerous ocassions long before he was knocked out, and he didn't dominate the way some people seem to think either, although he was certainly ahead after twelve. Also, this idea that he threw the fight away by brawling doesn't sit well with me. It was actually two or three perfect right hands from Louis which forced Conn to 'brawl' again, and just prior to being knocked out Conn had actually scored with some of his best punches of the night.

As discussed yesterday - the glove ripping by Dundee in the Cooper/Clay fight.

Another one is the phantom punch - which many claim didnt even land. Some claimed that the punch wasnt hard enough to knock down Liston.

Slow motion proved that the punch did land as can be seen my Clay's pec reflex.

Lads - you should never let the truth come in the way of a good story.

We wuz robbed echoed and entered the public consciousness.

The legend that Tommy Farr was robbed against Louis. Now it was close and Farr showed great heart - but he did lose. He shipped more punches. He took a bit of a pasting in the last round as well - which didn't help his cause.

The idea that Tyson didn't train for Douglas. If he didn't train - he couldn't have shipped so much punishment.

The idea among very casual fans that Tyson was unbeaten when he went to jail (this really irks me). Apparently the fault of some Wesley Snipes film or other.

But then - in other respects we have fact becoming myth. Take the thrilla in manila - especially the idea that frazier was blind in one eye. Now I have debated this one-eyed thing with many Ali fans - half of whom refuse to believe it. Because their version of truth looks better without a 1-eyed Joe Frazier pushing "the greatest".

Dazstarr wrote:Another one is the phantom punch - which many claim didnt even land. Some claimed that the punch wasnt hard enough to knock down Liston.

Slow motion proved that the punch did land as can be seen my Clay's pec reflex.

Punch definitely landed but I don't see it as enough to stop Sonny. Especially when 20 cops whacking him round the head with truncheons couldn't subdue him a week later...

The story Tyson nut huggers use about him losing the way when Cus D'Amato died, when in actual fact Cus dies a good year before Tyson won his first title against Trevor Berbick

Tyson did break his back against Holyfield.

Thinner in Manila - that Ali had quit to his corner after the 14th moments before Futch pulled Frazier out.

Lewis v Vitali - that vitali was miles ahead and was unjustly stopped resulting in a luck win for lennox.

That Lennox is Canadian...

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:Thinner in Manila - that Ali had quit to his corner after the 14th moments before Futch pulled Frazier out.

Lewis v Vitali - that vitali was miles ahead and was unjustly stopped resulting in a luck win for lennox.

Haha I love the old Vitali was ahead on the cards and would have won.

Did you see his face! That was a result of the tactic Vitali had of pressuring Lewis and running on to either jab or a jab follwed by a right.

The Lewis vs Vitali myth that Lewis was on course to lose that fight and got lucky annoys me. He started slowly but had taken control of the fight by the stoppage and I couldn't see Vitali lasting too many more rounds even with his rock solid chin.

Although in fairness - Vitali was firing back in the 5th. The idea that Lewis was about to pull a stoppage out of the bag in the next 2 rounds is as much of a myth as the idea that Vitali was up by a shutout. Lewis didn't get lucky with the cut - he stopped him fair and square with a brutal cut over the eye.

kevchadders wrote:The story Tyson nut huggers use about him losing the way when Cus D'Amato died, when in actual fact Cus dies a good year before Tyson won his first title against Trevor Berbick

AH, BUT WAS HE HIGHER THAN RODNEY KING AT THE TIME?

What about the one where everything went downhill (r@pe / loss etc) for Tyson after Bruno clocked him? I remember that doing the rounds at school - brain damage apparently

Michaels, Sean wrote:What about the one where everything went downhill (r@pe / loss etc) for Tyson after Bruno clocked him? I remember that doing the rounds at school - brain damage apparently

Sean, you should be commended for still going to school whilst severely brain damaged. I take my hat off to you!

Myth - Ali said, "No Vietcong ever called me ******"
Myth - Ali threw his OLYMPIC medal in the river.

Good call on the Tyson count myth..... for me Douglas performed brilliantly, and some of the punches he landed with were quality, so i agree, Tyson lost that fair and square.

As for Calzaghe, I agree the Reid fight was close, certainly not a robbery, and if people want to look at a fight he perhaps didnt win, they should look at the fight v's Hopkins, which I think he lost

JDandfries wrote:Good call on the Tyson count myth..... for me Douglas performed brilliantly, and some of the punches he landed with were quality, so i agree, Tyson lost that fair and square.

As for Calzaghe, I agree the Reid fight was close, certainly not a robbery, and if people want to look at a fight he perhaps didnt win, they should look at the fight v's Hopkins, which I think he lost

The Calzaghe Hopkins fight is very debatable - 50 / 50 decision in most peoples eyes. I wouldnt say he was robbed. But like DeGale/Groves - the result could have gone either way.

rowley wrote:On the back of the ongoing debate about the stoppage in the first Lewis McCall fight and whether the stoppage was appropriate or premature and some recent discussion as to the length of the delay in the first Cooper Ali fight thought I would ask what fights or results people thought had developed a mythology all of their own which in your opinion did not support the actual facts of the events. As I did on the original thread will state I don’t think there was any issue with the stoppage in Lewis McCall, he was on unsteady legs so can have no complaints. However as this has been more than adequately covered in the original thread will not revisit it in depth here.

However another fight I think has developed a life all of its own with the passage of time on here is the “robbery” in the Calzaghe Reid fight. I remember watching this at the time and reading the reports in the Boxing press and my recollection is the fight was close but Calzaghe had the better of it and got a close but deserved decision, having rewatched the fight on a couple of occasions I have seen little to change my mind. However when one reads the all too frequent debates about Joe’s career or legacy, this fight is often portrayed as a flat out robbery or a fight that raised a massive controversy at the time, a view I am not sure either the fight or the reaction in the press in anyway justified. Will say the fight was probably close enough to justify a rematch but was by no means the highway robbery many at one extreme of the Calzaghe debate would like to portray it as.

Are there other fights or events that have developed a life of their own with the passage of time? Would also appreciate it if we could exercise a rare measure of self control and not turn this into a Joe is an all time great/bum debate, although I’m not holding my breath on that one.

Johnson threw the fight against Willard? Not really helped by Papa Jack claiming he took a dive but "that" picture and the subsequent myth has had some momentum over the years. The reality is that Willard was too big and too well conditioned for a shop warn Johnson who was suffering badly from the Havana heat and some punishing shots from big Jess.

Right - I'm gona throw this one out, that Bruno rocked Tyson in their first fight.

I'm believe that Tyson missed with a hook and Bruno landed a straight. Tyson took it and then carried on as business as usual. I think this has been blown out of all proportion.

What do you think?

Dazstarr wrote:Right - I'm gona throw this one out, that Bruno rocked Tyson in their first fight.

I'm believe that Tyson missed with a hook and Bruno landed a straight. Tyson took it and then carried on as business as usual. I think this has been blown out of all proportion.

What do you think?

Apart from the fact that Bruno clobbbered Mike with a right hook and "briefly wobbled him", it's a sound enough theory

The idea that Bruno rocked Tyson isn't nearly as far-fetched as the myth that Hatton 'nearly knocked out Mayweather' in the first round when they fought. I still hear some of Hatton's followers claiming this.

Wobbled or caught off balance for a second after throwing the hook?

Hook/Straight - it's been a fair while since I watched it.

DAVE667 wrote:

Michaels, Sean wrote:What about the one where everything went downhill (r@pe / loss etc) for Tyson after Bruno clocked him? I remember that doing the rounds at school - brain damage apparently

Sean, you should be commended for still going to school whilst severely brain damaged. I take my hat off to you!

Myth - Ali said, "No Vietcong ever called me ******"
Myth - Ali threw his OLYMPIC medal in the river.

Were you any good at chinese whispers?

Send two and sixpence, we're going to a dance.

The myth that all Yorkshiremen are miserable sods.

It is not true, despite the best efforts of DAVE!

That Pep won a round without throwing a punch.

That Hagler was robbed against Leonard.

That Roy Jones dominated Hopkins in their first fight - was a turgid cagey affair.

That Lewis had already turned the tables on Vitali before the cut was opened.

That Lewis McCall 1 was a premature stoppage.

Union Cane wrote:Send two and sixpence, we're going to a dance.

Wasn't it send three and fourpence we're going to a dance

The myth that all Yorkshiremen are miserable sods.
----------------------------------

I'll have you know we're quite proud of our miserable sodedness!!!

I always get stick for this but whenever i watch Naz v MAB i never really think it was the one sided, schooling that people talk about. He was soundly outclassed but at no point was Naz in any trouble & since then it's almost grown arms & legs to the extent of Calzaghe v Lacy mauling.

Myth: Iron Maiden were a good band.

Eyetoldyouso wrote:

Union Cane wrote:Send two and sixpence, we're going to a dance.

Wasn't it send three and fourpence we're going to a dance

Probably, that does sound more like reinforcements.

I knew it was some kind of old fashioned money reference, I should have asked Windy...

Union Cane wrote:

Eyetoldyouso wrote:

Union Cane wrote:Send two and sixpence, we're going to a dance.

Wasn't it send three and fourpence we're going to a dance

Probably, that does sound more like reinforcements.

I knew it was some kind of old fashioned money reference, I should have asked Windy...

And taken your chances on my senility ?

Fair point.

"Send three groats and a shiny stone, we're going to a dance"

That James DeGale is funny and brings 'humour' to the table, as ONETWO put it. "Ah man, ya breff stinks innit? Ugly ginger kid! Ugly ginger kid! Cool dat breff! (Adopts West Indian accent) I'm gonna knarck you ooout!"

In fairness, that routine might get him a gig supporting Jim Davidson, or something.

Myth: Duran said "no mas"

Fact: Duran said "no queiro pelear con este payaso", meaning "I do no want to fight with this clown". It was the ref that said "no mas" in questioning Durans actions.

Union Cane wrote:Fair point.

"Send three groats and a shiny stone, we're going to a dance"

Send three GOATS and a virgin, we're going to sacrifice her to the yellow ball of fire in the Sky!

Michaels, Sean wrote:Myth: Iron Maiden were a good band.

Not really a myth Sean...it's just that they haven't really been any good since 1986...(for you kids out there, that was a real year even though it looks like it was before many of you believe boxing was invented)

DAVE667 wrote:

Michaels, Sean wrote:Myth: Iron Maiden were a good band.

Not really a myth Sean...it's just that they haven't really been any good since 1986...(for you kids out there, that was a real year even though it looks like it was before many of you believe boxing was invented)

I was 7 in '86. More of a Level 42 man then.........

Michaels, Sean wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

Michaels, Sean wrote:Myth: Iron Maiden were a good band.

Not really a myth Sean...it's just that they haven't really been any good since 1986...(for you kids out there, that was a real year even though it looks like it was before many of you believe boxing was invented)

I was 7 in '86. More of a Level 42 man then.........

Bloods in the Egg, classic track.

They pretty much sucked after "World Machine" or "Lessons in Love". Their earlier stuff was better but even then it was really only salvaged by Mark King's bass playing. "Staring at the Sun" was dreadful and I gave up after that.

PS As a teenager ie with hair, I bore a striking resemblence to Mike Lindup the keyboard player

If you had asked me to write a list of the top 100 tangents this thread may have taken when I wrote it have to say the relative merits of Level 42 would not have made the list. For what it's worth I always hated them. As a teenager in the 80s was a massive Smiths fan, as a miserable teenage Smiths fan as I'm sure you can imagine was a hit with the ladies during my school years.

http://www.thebedford.co.uk/images/ArtistPictures/mike%20lindup.JPG

Nice shirt...

rowley wrote:If you had asked me to write a list of the top 100 tangents this thread may have taken when I wrote it have to say the relative merits of Level 42 would not have made the list. For what it's worth I always hated them. As a teenager in the 80s was a massive Smiths fan, as a miserable teenage Smiths fan as I'm sure you can imagine was a hit with the ladies during my school years.

I took the Smiths route too, Rowley. Although I prefer the term 'deep' instead of 'miserable.'

88Chris05 wrote:

rowley wrote:If you had asked me to write a list of the top 100 tangents this thread may have taken when I wrote it have to say the relative merits of Level 42 would not have made the list. For what it's worth I always hated them. As a teenager in the 80s was a massive Smiths fan, as a miserable teenage Smiths fan as I'm sure you can imagine was a hit with the ladies during my school years.

I took the Smiths route too, Rowley. Although I prefer the term 'deep' instead of 'miserable.'

You keep telling yourself that Chris

Can't access the link, but I bet it's a screamer!

The Smiths...dear god almighty.

Morrissey was the reason firearms became popular in America...just in case he ever came over, they could kill him...and then themselves. Same goes for Neil Morrissey!

There was always a battle at school to see who was the most miserable...Smith Fans, or Sisters of Mercy fans. Occasionally fans of The Cure would join in and it would be like Jonestown without the happy ending

88Chris05 wrote:

rowley wrote:If you had asked me to write a list of the top 100 tangents this thread may have taken when I wrote it have to say the relative merits of Level 42 would not have made the list. For what it's worth I always hated them. As a teenager in the 80s was a massive Smiths fan, as a miserable teenage Smiths fan as I'm sure you can imagine was a hit with the ladies during my school years.

I took the Smiths route too, Rowley. Although I prefer the term 'deep' instead of 'miserable.'

Had you down as to young for the Smiths Chris!!

Thought you'd be listening to some new fangled electro-pop-rap-grime (if that exists and my finger on the pulse ofyouth culture still works)!!

Sir. badgerhands wrote:Had you down as to young for the Smiths Chris!! Thought you'd be listening to some new fangled electro-pop-rap-grime (if that exists and my finger on the pulse ofyouth culture still works)!!

Can't ever be too young for The Smiths, badger! The world is going to sap your soul and inner strength at some point, better to stick 'Meat is Murder' on while in your teens and get it out the way.

Rob Newman doing The Laughing Policeman in the style of The Cure is a comedy classic.