Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

I am not prone to defending the old firm but what do you mean by not close to CL standard? They are probably pretty similar to other pot 4 teams.

They clearly aren't capable of competing in it, furthermore if they were genuinely Champions League standard they wouldn't have to rely on Russian league expulsion to get in automatically and wouldn't have such a dismal qualifying record against Malmo, Copenhagen, Midtylland etc.

Teams that are CL standard actually appear in it, rather than once every five years. Evidently they are there to make up numbers.
Getting third position is the aspiration and that looks a step too far for Rangers at least and likely Celtic

Fancy editing this one before I go forth and rip the utter Poopie apart point by point?

Not at all. Celtic and Rangers are proving categorically why they are pot 4. They have been terrible.
Unless they do their part in improving the SPL and thus increasing revenue so they can compete at this level they are only ever going to be able to do ok in Europa and Conference, it's clear as day they aren't up to the CL under the status quo.
Not really sure how you can "rip that apart"
Celtic and Rangers are partially responsible for how bad the quality of the domestic League is, but do nothing to improve it. It's self fulfilling and any reasonable OF fan would admit they aren't good enough for the Champions League and unless things change domestically, they never will.
That's pretty reasonable isn't it?

Yes, it comes down to money, but if your teams can't be arsed to improve the product, then expect this every year until your coefficient denudes to the point where automatic qualification doesn't occur.

Rangers and Celtic aren't good enough. It's just a fact.

Ok points
1. Russian expulsion, they were already going to be ahead of Russia in the coefficient. Rangers pretty much over the past 4 seasons dragged the Scottish coefficient from 23rd to 8th FACT
2. Rangers have faced Danish opposition twice since their resurgence, comfortably beating Midtylland in the Europa league qualifying and taking 4/6 points off Brondby in the group stage last season. I can’t and won’t speak about how the other half of the OF have performed.
3. I know this will be painful for you to grasp but the Scottish league is the 8th best league in Europe and in terms of finance is there punching above it’s weight.
4. Rangers were ranked 33rd at the end of last season, at the point of the CL group stage draw they were ranked 29th, had that ranking been used in the CL draw they would have been in POT 3, but for a Ramsay penalty they would have been in pot 1

Saying they can’t compete is utter Love sacks, there is a mile of difference between saying they’ve performed poorly compared to last season and saying they can’t compete. If they ship the same amount of goals in the next 3 games and 0 points then you’d be moving toward a semblance of a point but we’re not there yet are we.

5. Civic.

[super_realist]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domestic_football_league_broadcast_deals_by_country

There's a good list here on Wikipedia. Apparently Scotland comes below the UAE, second tier Italian football, the Greek league, the Argentine one, the English football league...well quite a lot of leagues to be honest.

It's because the quality outside of the Old Firm is shocking, so very few want to watch. And the Old Firm are only mid-table PL clubs at best. And as well as an absence of quality, it's not a very exciting league in terms of competition.

The Old Firm aren't in the PL so it's an irrelevant point.

Are we really saying in terms of TV appeal it's worth only half as much as Norway? 2/3rds as much as Denmark? Without looking, how many Norwegian Teams could you name? Do you honestly think any Norwegian or Danish game could outstrip an Old firm game in terms of demand?

Yes outside the O/F the quality aint great and does need improving. How can comparable standards be improved and the game developed when the revenue streams are paltry compared to other comparable nations? It's like saying austerity works.

Have a look at the SFA website, the first thing that strikes you is the emphasis on the past and history. It just smacks of an insular navel gazing organisation that commercialism and modern ideas of developing the game has completely bypassed it. Rangers and Celtic have much more commercial nouse but they're handcuffed to a petty majority that would rather see them fail.  

In a similar way Scottish Rugby also suffered a bit when the game went Pro and became much more commercialised, every other home nation were MUCH more prepared for it and prospered both at club and international level.

No the point was that because they're mid-table PL quality there's not a lot of interest in them outside Scotland. If the Old Firm were equal to the quality of, say, Arsenal or Tottenham, then there would be more global interest in the SPL.

I also think you overstate the magnitude of the Old Firm derby. I believe you've said before that you think it's a bigger game than any in the EPL, which is very wide of the mark. There's little interest in the Old Firm derby outside of Scotland, and this is partially due to quality but also due to oversaturation (at least four meetings a season!).

It must be only worth half as much as Norway's TV deal, because that's what the broadcasters are willing to pay.

For Scottish football to improve they need Celtic and Rangers, predominantly, but also the Scottish FA, to invest in youth academies, improve coaching standards and infrastructure. Then Scotland might begin churning out higher quality players with better technical ability. It seems though that Celtic and Rangers are happy to be big fishes in a miniscule pond, where they can slap the likes of Ross County and St Mirren and have the occasional jaunt into Europe, but nothing beyond that.

That is the nail on the head, The old firm are barely given a second thought but believe they are still massive, relevant clubs.
They're has beens that no one outside Scotland cares about

[super_realist]

It's because the quality outside of the Old Firm is shocking, so very few want to watch. And the Old Firm are only mid-table PL clubs at best. And as well as an absence of quality, it's not a very exciting league in terms of competition.

The quality of the Spanish league may be higher, but in the past 40-50 years there has only been a handful of years with a champion other than FCB or RM. Plus there’s max 3 or 4 other teams worth watching. This year Sevilla and Atletico sucks in the CL and FCB is on its way out as well. Just a thought about one of Europes top leagues.

There's only been two teams winning tje SPL since 1984/5 season and only 13 occasions in 157 years when it hasn't been Celtic or Rangers, that's the difference.
The world's least competitive league

[beninho]

Scotland having 2 dominant teams isn't unusual in European football. Germany has one dominant team, who have won the title more times then every other team combined. Portugal has 3 teams who have won everything bar 2 titles ever. 2 teams in Ukraine to ever win the title since formation. Holland has a dominant team. Spain obviously has 2 dominant teams.

It's rare to not have dominant teams in a league.

[beninho]

So, Trussys time is up. Hopefully her brand of right wing conservatism will be consigned to the scrap heap and the loud mouths may be quiet for a bit. But they should no way get to just appoint another PM. I can live with swapping one. But calling for another leader without an election is shoddy.

[super_realist]

Scotland having 2 dominant teams isn't unusual in European football. Germany has one dominant team, who have won the title more times then every other team combined. Portugal has 3 teams who have won everything bar 2 titles ever. 2 teams in Ukraine to ever win the title since formation. Holland has a dominant team.  Spain obviously has 2 dominant teams.

It's rare to not have dominant teams in a league.

No team in Europe has a league with as few different winners as Scotland.

[super_realist]

So, Trussys time is up. Hopefully her brand of right wing conservatism will be consigned to the scrap heap and the loud mouths may be quiet for a bit. But they should no way get to just appoint another PM. I can live with swapping one. But calling for another leader without an election is shoddy.

I'm so glad to be moving, sadly depending on contract i might be back when the most boring man in politics takes charge .

[beninho]

Scotland having 2 dominant teams isn't unusual in European football. Germany has one dominant team, who have won the title more times then every other team combined. Portugal has 3 teams who have won everything bar 2 titles ever. 2 teams in Ukraine to ever win the title since formation. Holland has a dominant team.  Spain obviously has 2 dominant teams.

It's rare to not have dominant teams in a league.

No team in Europe has a league with as few different winners as Scotland.

That's wrong isn't it? Surely you know that's wrong.

As already mentioned Ukraine have had 3, Portugal 5. Spain 9, Turkey only 6.

[JAS]

Scotland having 2 dominant teams isn't unusual in European football. Germany has one dominant team, who have won the title more times then every other team combined. Portugal has 3 teams who have won everything bar 2 titles ever. 2 teams in Ukraine to ever win the title since formation. Holland has a dominant team.  Spain obviously has 2 dominant teams.

It's rare to not have dominant teams in a league.

No team in Europe has a league with as few different winners as Scotland.

That's wrong isn't it? Surely you know that's wrong.

As already mentioned Ukraine have had 3, Portugal 5. Spain 9, Turkey only 6.

Yeah but Supes was only talking about the current season :-p

[JAS]

So, Trussys time is up. Hopefully her brand of right wing conservatism will be consigned to the scrap heap and the loud mouths may be quiet for a bit. But they should no way get to just appoint another PM. I can live with swapping one. But calling for another leader without an election is shoddy.

Dont you just love how they portray themselves as protectors of Democracy…
Tories to Scotland…you can only have a referendum once in a generation
Tories to unions… you must secure over 50% of your whole electorate regardless of whether they vote or not
Tories on themselves… we’ll have as many internal elections as we fancy and we’ll pick and choose which ones we respect the result of!!

Grand purveyors of credibility and respect of the Democratic process!! If the chaos wasn’t so damaging on peoples personal finances it’d be hilarious.

[JAS]

So, Trussys time is up. Hopefully her brand of right wing conservatism will be consigned to the scrap heap and the loud mouths may be quiet for a bit. But they should no way get to just appoint another PM. I can live with swapping one. But calling for another leader without an election is shoddy.

I'm so glad to be moving, sadly depending on contract i might be back when the most boring man in politics takes charge .

Is John Major being lined up for a comeback?? :-p
Seriously though, you say that as if it's a negative. Johnson was a lot of things but I'll give him this...he certainly wasn't boring and look where that got us!!

It's not about exciting or boring, it's about competence surely?

[McLaren]

The issue with Supers man sausage eyed take on this is that it has drawn the conversation away from the real point and that is why the Scottish sides have done so poorly. Neither would expect better than 3rd or 4th in the group but there are different ways to end up bottom of your group. And rangers are coming off the back of a successful European campaign.

Other "minnows" produce results in the CL (Brugge, Shakhtar, Zagreb, Pilzen and copenhagen just this season). But across the CL and Hearts in the Europa conference it has been a terrible season for the Scottish clubs. It is too simplistic to say they are from a tin pot league because other clubs from such leagues tend to fair slightly better.

Would be interested to hear from people other than Super why they think things have gone particularly badly for the Scottish clubs this season?

[JAS]

The issue with Supers man sausage eyed take on this is that it has drawn the conversation away from the real point and that is why the Scottish sides have done so poorly. Neither would expect better than 3rd or 4th in the group but there are different ways to end up bottom of your group. And rangers are coming off the back of a successful European campaign.

Other "minnows" produce results in the CL (Brugge, Shakhtar, Zagreb, Pilzen and copenhagen just this season). But across the CL and Hearts in the Europa conference it has been a terrible season for the Scottish clubs. It is too simplistic to say they are from a tin pot league because other clubs from such leagues tend to fair slightly better.

Would be interested to hear from people other than Super why they think things have gone particularly badly for the Scottish clubs this season?

Duty pretty much inadvertently implied it in a couple of recent posts but didn't say it outright, I've screamed it frequently and got a debate going on it. It's MONEY pure and simple. The game has changed... crowd size and club ownership used to determine a clubs power and wealth. Now it's TV Income and club ownership, wealth from TV income dwarfs gate receipts in the big leagues, ergo by simple dint of geography if your club is not based in a country blessed with a rich TV rights income stream then you can no longer sustainably compete on a level playing field in European competition. Even if you have 46000 season ticket holders and a waiting list it means nothing if you can only win £3m for WINNING your league yet in your neighbours league a team getting hosed week in week out gets £97m for getting RELEGATED. That's how much money has distorted the game.

The trouble is most clubs in the Scottish league are subservient and fatalistic enough to accept such a status quo which leaves the Old Firm totally trapped and no where to go but shrink into ineffectual mediocrity and terminal decline.

[Duty281]

The issue with Supers man sausage eyed take on this is that it has drawn the conversation away from the real point and that is why the Scottish sides have done so poorly. Neither would expect better than 3rd or 4th in the group but there are different ways to end up bottom of your group. And rangers are coming off the back of a successful European campaign.

Other "minnows" produce results in the CL (Brugge, Shakhtar, Zagreb, Pilzen and copenhagen just this season). But across the CL and Hearts in the Europa conference it has been a terrible season for the Scottish clubs. It is too simplistic to say they are from a tin pot league because other clubs from such leagues tend to fair slightly better.

Would be interested to hear from people other than Super why they think things have gone particularly badly for the Scottish clubs this season?

Duty pretty much inadvertently implied it in a couple of recent posts but didn't say it outright, I've screamed it frequently and got a debate going on it. It's MONEY pure and simple. The game has changed... crowd size and club ownership used to determine a clubs power and wealth. Now it's TV Income and club ownership, wealth from TV income dwarfs gate receipts in the big leagues, ergo by simple dint of geography if your club is not based in a country blessed with a rich TV rights income stream then you can no longer sustainably compete on a level playing field in European competition. Even if you have 46000 season ticket holders and a waiting list it means nothing if you can only win £3m for WINNING your league yet in your neighbours league a team getting hosed week in week out gets £97m for getting RELEGATED. That's how much money has distorted the game.

The trouble is most clubs in the Scottish league are subservient and fatalistic enough to accept such a status quo which leaves the Old Firm totally trapped and no where to go but shrink into ineffectual mediocrity and terminal decline.

Yes, the Scottish league needs more money. To get more money they need to offer a better product. Currently they get a dismal amount of TV money because the Scottish league is dismal, parochial and almost entirely ignored by the footballing community outside of Scotland.

The Scottish sides have struggled in Europe this season because they're all hopelessly outmatched in their respective competitions. Celtic just aren't particularly good and appear to be managed by an idiot who played a high press and high line against Leipzig, a team that's full of pace and has superior fitness. Rangers are worse than Celtic. A freak run in the Europa last season has led some to overinflate their expectations. And Hearts and Dundee...well the results speak for themselves.

[JAS]

The issue with Supers man sausage eyed take on this is that it has drawn the conversation away from the real point and that is why the Scottish sides have done so poorly. Neither would expect better than 3rd or 4th in the group but there are different ways to end up bottom of your group. And rangers are coming off the back of a successful European campaign.

Other "minnows" produce results in the CL (Brugge, Shakhtar, Zagreb, Pilzen and copenhagen just this season). But across the CL and Hearts in the Europa conference it has been a terrible season for the Scottish clubs. It is too simplistic to say they are from a tin pot league because other clubs from such leagues tend to fair slightly better.

Would be interested to hear from people other than Super why they think things have gone particularly badly for the Scottish clubs this season?

Duty pretty much inadvertently implied it in a couple of recent posts but didn't say it outright, I've screamed it frequently and got a debate going on it. It's MONEY pure and simple. The game has changed... crowd size and club ownership used to determine a clubs power and wealth. Now it's TV Income and club ownership, wealth from TV income dwarfs gate receipts in the big leagues, ergo by simple dint of geography if your club is not based in a country blessed with a rich TV rights income stream then you can no longer sustainably compete on a level playing field in European competition. Even if you have 46000 season ticket holders and a waiting list it means nothing if you can only win £3m for WINNING your league yet in your neighbours league a team getting hosed week in week out gets £97m for getting RELEGATED. That's how much money has distorted the game.

The trouble is most clubs in the Scottish league are subservient and fatalistic enough to accept such a status quo which leaves the Old Firm totally trapped and no where to go but shrink into ineffectual mediocrity and terminal decline.

Yes, the Scottish league needs more money. To get more money they need to offer a better product. Currently they get a dismal amount of TV money because the Scottish league is dismal, parochial and almost entirely ignored by the footballing community outside of Scotland.

The Scottish sides have struggled in Europe this season because they're all hopelessly outmatched in their respective competitions. Celtic just aren't particularly good and appear to be managed by an idiot who played a high press and high line against Leipzig, a team that's full of pace and has superior fitness. Rangers are worse than Celtic. A freak run in the Europa last season has led some to overinflate their expectations. And Hearts and Dundee...well the results speak for themselves.

Nearly agree with all of that, However, it NOW looks like a freak run given this years regression but it HAD been building, Last 16 in 2019/2020 where they took 4 from a possible 6 points off Porto, Last 16 in 2020/2021 when they topped the group containing Benfica, drawing twice with them so I don't buy that the 2021/2022 run to the final was a freak. What I would say though is that there is a HUGE gap between Europa & Champs League and I do wonder if CL standard Teams like Porto and Benfica (and Dortmund and Leipzig for that matter) care enough to focus their attention properly on the Europa League or use it more as a kind of testbed for further Champs League excursions?

In terms of Scottish football though, yes you're right to a point, it does need to offer a better product and it appears stuck in a chicken and egg cycle which nobody seems capable of addressing.

I do wonder where Rangers can actually go next, a few short months ago I was quite please at how much more a tactically astute manager Gio was than Gerrard, I thought Rangers had taken a step forward and in a sense they had BUT when setbacks come along I don't think Gio has that complete and utter inner belief and winner mentality that Gerrard has that rubs off on those around him. You can see that in the players this season, a Gerrard side would NEVER have lost 1-7 at Ibrox to anyone.

[super_realist]

Scotland having 2 dominant teams isn't unusual in European football. Germany has one dominant team, who have won the title more times then every other team combined. Portugal has 3 teams who have won everything bar 2 titles ever. 2 teams in Ukraine to ever win the title since formation. Holland has a dominant team.  Spain obviously has 2 dominant teams.

It's rare to not have dominant teams in a league.

No team in Europe has a league with as few different winners as Scotland.

That's wrong isn't it? Surely you know that's wrong.

As already mentioned Ukraine have had 3, Portugal 5. Spain 9, Turkey only 6.

You didn't understand the point. There has only been
19 DIFFERENT YEARS when the winner of the Top Scottish division hasn't been Celtic or Rangers, not 19 different winners, and one of then was a joint winner with Rangers. It is only 9 different winners in 152 years.
There hasn't been a single occasion since 1984/5 that is hasn't been Celtic or Rangers. There isn't a league in Europe and probably the world that has been that much of a coin toss.

[super_realist]

The issue with Supers man sausage eyed take on this is that it has drawn the conversation away from the real point and that is why the Scottish sides have done so poorly. Neither would expect better than 3rd or 4th in the group but there are different ways to end up bottom of your group. And rangers are coming off the back of a successful European campaign.

Other "minnows" produce results in the CL (Brugge, Shakhtar, Zagreb, Pilzen and copenhagen just this season). But across the CL and Hearts in the Europa conference it has been a terrible season for the Scottish clubs. It is too simplistic to say they are from a tin pot league because other clubs from such leagues tend to fair slightly better.

Would be interested to hear from people other than Super why they think things have gone particularly badly for the Scottish clubs this season?

Duty pretty much inadvertently implied it in a couple of recent posts but didn't say it outright, I've screamed it frequently and got a debate going on it. It's MONEY pure and simple. The game has changed... crowd size and club ownership used to determine a clubs power and wealth. Now it's TV Income and club ownership, wealth from TV income dwarfs gate receipts in the big leagues, ergo by simple dint of geography if your club is not based in a country blessed with a rich TV rights income stream then you can no longer sustainably compete on a level playing field in European competition. Even if you have 46000 season ticket holders and a waiting list it means nothing if you can only win £3m for WINNING your league yet in your neighbours league a team getting hosed week in week out gets £97m for getting RELEGATED. That's how much money has distorted the game.

The trouble is most clubs in the Scottish league are subservient and fatalistic enough to accept such a status quo which leaves the Old Firm totally trapped and no where to go but shrink into ineffectual mediocrity and terminal decline.

Yes, the Scottish league needs more money. To get more money they need to offer a better product. Currently they get a dismal amount of TV money because the Scottish league is dismal, parochial and almost entirely ignored by the footballing community outside of Scotland.

The Scottish sides have struggled in Europe this season because they're all hopelessly outmatched in their respective competitions. Celtic just aren't particularly good and appear to be managed by an idiot who played a high press and high line against Leipzig, a team that's full of pace and has superior fitness. Rangers are worse than Celtic. A freak run in the Europa last season has led some to overinflate their expectations. And Hearts and Dundee...well the results speak for themselves.

There is no excuse for a Scotch team lacking fitness. Fitness costs nothing.

[JAS]

[
There is no excuse for a Scotch team lacking fitness. Fitness costs nothing.

I'd certainly agree that there's no excuse, not sure it costs nothing but even the most sophisticated fitness monitoring tools that crush numbers on all sorts of things is not the kind of equipment that would be out of the Old Firms reach. So yes absolutely, no reason whatsoever, indeed knowing CL teams and players will be more skilled should have been motivation itself in driving them to beast levels of fitness in pre season to try and compete. I do wonder what has happened to Rangers this season because there were a couple of occasions where they went 2 x 120 mins in 4 days last season and got results, there was NOTHING wrong with Rangers fitness levels. I'm now not sure if they were residual levels from the Gerrard regime because this season after the first Gio pre-season they seem half a yard short. He was always superfit himself in his playing days but that doesn't always translate into a managerial philosophy

[JAS]

Anybody else watch that commons debate and not think...."What idiots the Tory MPs are as a group - they actually chose Truss & Sunak for the shortlist when Mordaunt was on the candidate list"

Obviously I'm not a Tory (you may have noticed) but even I was impressed with how Mordaunt handled herself at the despatch box. I was left wondering if there's a silent coup going on and that was Mordaunts audition.

[super_realist]

You could probably say the same for every party JAS.
I agree this lot and their predecessors have been terrible (Truss, May, Cameron, Johnson), but lets not forget about the truly dire leaders the Lib Dems have had as well as Corbyn, Milliband, Gordon Brown for Labour etc. Even Starmer isn't winning anything by his "quality" as a leader because he's incredibly wooden and useless in that regard, he's simply doing what he needs to do, keep quiet and let the Tories commit suicide. I actually don't envy him, because when he gets in in 2 years, he'll have inherited a basket case and might only last a term.

We are hardly endowed with greatness and almost make American Joe Biden look Presidential.

[super_realist]

[
There is no excuse for a Scotch team lacking fitness. Fitness costs nothing.

I'd certainly agree that there's no excuse, not sure it costs nothing but even the most sophisticated fitness monitoring tools that crush numbers on all sorts of things is not the kind of equipment that would be out of the Old Firms reach. So yes absolutely, no reason whatsoever, indeed knowing CL teams and players will be more skilled should have been motivation itself in driving them to beast levels of fitness in pre season to try and compete. I do wonder what has happened to Rangers this season because there were a couple of occasions where they went 2 x 120 mins in 4 days last season and got results, there was NOTHING wrong with Rangers fitness levels. I'm now not sure if they were residual levels from the Gerrard regime because this season after the first Gio pre-season they seem half a yard short. He was always superfit himself in his playing days but that doesn't always translate into a managerial philosophy

I think it's just the Champions League is several rungs up from where they are, or that they've had their purple patch. I've always thought expectation needed to be tempered this season and that it was merely a barometer to show just how far behind they actually are, and it's probably worse then either of us thought. Rangers especially have been dire, at least Celtic have looked ok in short spells, but it's a bit like saying you competed for 40 metres in a 200 metre race.

It does look like both are going no further in any European competition this year barring an absolute miracle such as Real Madrid all dying in a plane crash or Napoli falling under a Mafia match fixing scam. Probably just a bit naive from both of them, and both believing their own hype a bit too much.

If they got one 3rd place each in the next 3 seasons I think that would be progress. They're a mile off second.

[JAS]

[
There is no excuse for a Scotch team lacking fitness. Fitness costs nothing.

I'd certainly agree that there's no excuse, not sure it costs nothing but even the most sophisticated fitness monitoring tools that crush numbers on all sorts of things is not the kind of equipment that would be out of the Old Firms reach. So yes absolutely, no reason whatsoever, indeed knowing CL teams and players will be more skilled should have been motivation itself in driving them to beast levels of fitness in pre season to try and compete. I do wonder what has happened to Rangers this season because there were a couple of occasions where they went 2 x 120 mins in 4 days last season and got results, there was NOTHING wrong with Rangers fitness levels. I'm now not sure if they were residual levels from the Gerrard regime because this season after the first Gio pre-season they seem half a yard short. He was always superfit himself in his playing days but that doesn't always translate into a managerial philosophy

I think it's just the Champions League is several rungs up from where they are, or that they've had their purple patch. I've always thought expectation needed to be tempered this season and that it was merely a barometer to show just how far behind they actually are, and it's probably worse then either of us thought. Rangers especially have been dire, at least Celtic have looked ok in short spells, but it's a bit like saying you competed for 40 metres in a 200 metre race.

It does look like both are going no further in any European competition this year barring an absolute miracle such as Real Madrid all dying in a plane crash or Napoli falling under a Mafia match fixing scam. Probably just a bit naive from both of them, and both believing their own hype a bit too much.

If they got one 3rd place each in the next 3 seasons I think that would be progress. They're a mile off second.

I've never actually believed they had a realistic chance at 2nd in a group, to get a 3rd i didn't think was unrealistic based on the last 3 years but even I would concede they've gone backwards. Progress is not always a straight line though is it? However I DO think there are now issues in that squad, similar to Feb 2020 when Gerrard was at the end of his tether. What changed things there was that the league was truncated and awarded to Celtic which to be fair they were fairly well ahead although not mathematically done especially with 2 O/F games left. Gerrard clearly used that hurt to reset and galvanise them the following season and we all know what happened. Something galvanising need to happen to that squad now because they've been battered several times now, I just get the feeling something is going wrong inside ibrox.

[super_realist]

Yes, That is true, compared to where the OF were 5 years ago is definitely a trend upwards, but how far can that trend continue before it flatlines or declines? There's obviously a level somewhere, but where is it is the question.
There just isn't the quality of the Larsson era which can carry a team against far better opposition on a regular basis.

[JAS]

Yes, That is true, compared to where the OF were 5 years ago is definitely a trend upwards, but how far can that trend continue before it flatlines or declines? There's obviously a level somewhere, but where is it is the question.
There just isn't the quality of the Larsson era which can carry a team against far better opposition on a regular basis.

...and it comes back to the same thing again...money. They have to get better at growing their own and player trading. They can no longer go out and get top notch talent like they did in the the Souness/Smith/Advocaat eras. They're now having to take Poopie gambles on injury prone has beens (look how that worked out last season!!).

I'd say they're on the plateau now. Rangers peaked at 29 in the coefficient rankings there was the potential to get as high as the mid to low 20s with 3rd place group stage and a couple of Rounds of Europa League but they'll almost certainly drop back now to mid 30s. Celtic are hovering around the 50 mark they really should be doing better.

[theslosty]

Celtic fan from Ireland here - I don't really get what point the critics are trying to make of ourselves and Rangers here. They are two very big clubs, pretty sure both have average attendances well inside Europe's top 20 - however we all know that matters little in terms of financial power. They're quite simply held back by being in a small country and a small league, that's just a product of Scotland's population count compounded by having to compete with the EPL for national broadcasters. It's not arrogance to believe we ought to be among the European elite, the size of our fanbase and our rich history is testament to that and it's frustrating that these days much smaller clubs, particularly in England, are able to attract a higher calibre of player than us purely by having the fortune to be situated in a much bigger TV market or be propped up by some Gulf oil state or Russian oligarch.

I'm not going to pretend I haven't been disappointed by Celtic in the UCL this season, I will admit there was building expectation on the back of the domestic form and how a decent (but not dazzling) Rangers showed last season that progress in Europe wasn't as far out of reach as a lot of us had thought. However I have to say for anyone who hasn't watched our matches that we haven't exactly been outclassed outside of Leipzig away, with better finishing our position could look very different, Shakhtar away and (to a lesser extent) Leipzig at home were opportunities missed meanwhile even Real at home could have been very different with a bit more luck. As long as Postecoglou stays at the helm I believe we are on an upward trend, he's a very intelligent coach with great charisma and as he said last week all we can keep doing is keep qualifying for the CL every year and benefit from the experience and financial injection necessary to make progress. People have been citing Brugge and they've performed remarkably but it's their 5th consecutive season in the competition and spent £50m in the summer transfer window so clearly wasn't built overnight. I suspect some of our most talented players such as Jota and O'Riley will be tempted away in the next couple of years but the transfer fees received for them should be more than enough to reinvest in the squad. Jota in particular is the most skilful player I've seen in Scotland in at least 10 years.

Larsson was obviously exceptional but beyond him that Martin O'Neill team was no more skilful than the current Celtic crop. It was a lot more physical though

I'm not going to pass judgement on Rangers but it's pretty apparent that financially they aren't as secure as Celtic for obvious reasons and that has clearly held them back this season. The writing was on the wall when they failed to significantly reinvest in their squad on the back of the Europa final and CL qualification plus £50m in transfer sales.

The likelihood of us ever joining the EPL has all but gone and tbh I'm not all that sad about that as I see it as an excessively commercialised and stale battle of what are effectively corporate franchises now. Even Anfield's atmosphere on European nights pales in comparison to Celtic Park these days imo. A proposition I'm more interested in would be the development of a North Atlantic league featuring Scotland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and possibly Ireland. It's the only prospect of smaller countries raising their TV revenue to anything close to the Big 5. Obviously I doubt it will ever happen but maybe if the talks between the Dutch and Belgian leagues amount to anything then the chatter might grow.

Tbh I do think the biggest of the rest such as Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen etc are probably not maximising their potential which is a shame because I do believe these clubs have a considerable latent support that only comes out in cup finals. Whether that support would thrive if the prospect of trophies was opened up by the absence of the big two is hard to say. The league could just as easily fall to the level of the Welsh or the Irish league.

Also just to remark on the comments about fitness above, there is fitness and then there is elite athleticism and genetics which only the wealthiest clubs can attract. The last couple of fixtures saw Celtic's Greg Taylor mark Leipzig's Mohamed Simakan, the former is having a great season for us but at 5'7" and never having been blessed with blistering pace there is only so much he can do against Simakan who resembled an NBA player with his power and speed. And I've no doubt Taylor is close to as 'fit' as he can be

[super_realist]

Yes, That is true, compared to where the OF were 5 years ago is definitely a trend upwards, but how far can that trend continue before it flatlines or declines? There's obviously a level somewhere, but where is it is the question.
There just isn't the quality of the Larsson era which can carry a team against far better opposition on a regular basis.

...and it comes back to the same thing again...money. They have to get better at growing their own and player trading. They can no longer go out and get top notch talent like they did in the the Souness/Smith/Advocaat eras. They're now having to do Poopie like take gambles on injury prone has beens (look how that worked out last season!!).

I'd say they're on the plateau now. Rangers peaked at 29 in the coefficient rankings there was the potential to get as high as the mid to low 20s with 3rd place group stage and a couple of Rounds of Europa League but they'll almost certainly drop back now to mid 30s. Celtic are hovering around the 50 mark they really should be doing better.

Yes, money which they don't currently deserve.

[super_realist]

Celtic fan from Ireland here - I don't really get what point the critics are trying to make of ourselves and Rangers here. They are two very big clubs, pretty sure both have average attendances well inside Europe's top 20 - however we all know that matters little in terms of financial power. They're quite simply held back by being in a small country and a small league, that's just a product of Scotland's population count compounded by having to compete with the EPL for national broadcasters. It's not arrogance to believe we ought to be among the European elite, the size of our fanbase and our rich history is testament to that and it's frustrating that these days much smaller clubs, particularly in England, are able to attract a higher calibre of player than us purely by having the fortune to be situated in a much bigger TV market or be propped up by some Gulf oil state or Russian oligarch.

I'm not going to pretend I haven't been disappointed by Celtic in the UCL this season, I will admit there was building expectation on the back of the domestic form and how a decent (but not dazzling) Rangers showed last season that progress in Europe wasn't as far out of reach as a lot of us had thought. However I have to say for anyone who hasn't watched our matches that we haven't exactly been outclassed outside of Leipzig away, with better finishing our position could look very different, Shakhtar away and (to a lesser extent) Leipzig at home were opportunities missed meanwhile even Real at home could have been very different with a bit more luck. As long as Postecoglou stays at the helm I believe we are on an upward trend, he's a very intelligent coach with great charisma and as he said last week all we can keep doing is keep qualifying for the CL every year and benefit from the experience and financial injection necessary to make progress. People have been citing Brugge and they've performed remarkably but it's their 5th consecutive season in the competition and spent £50m in the summer transfer window so clearly wasn't built overnight. I suspect some of our most talented players such as Jota and O'Riley will be tempted away in the next couple of years but the transfer fees received for them should be more than enough to reinvest in the squad. Jota in particular is the most skilful player I've seen in Scotland in at least 10 years.

Larsson was obviously exceptional but beyond him that Martin O'Neill team was no more skilful than the current Celtic crop. It was a lot more physical though

I'm not going to pass judgement on Rangers but it's pretty apparent that financially they aren't as secure as Celtic for obvious reasons and that has clearly held them back this season. The writing was on the wall when they failed to significantly reinvest in their squad on the back of the Europa final and CL qualification plus £50m in transfer sales.

The likelihood of us ever joining the EPL has all but gone and tbh I'm not all that sad about that as I see it as an excessively commercialised and stale battle of what are effectively corporate franchises now. Even Anfield's atmosphere on European nights pales in comparison to Celtic Park these days imo. A proposition I'm more interested in would be the development of a North Atlantic league featuring Scotland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and possibly Ireland. It's the only prospect of smaller countries raising their TV revenue to anything close to the Big 5. Obviously I doubt it will ever happen but maybe if the talks between the Dutch and Belgian leagues amount to anything then the chatter might grow.

Tbh I do think the biggest of the rest such as Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen etc are probably not maximising their potential which is a shame because I do believe these clubs have a considerable latent support that only comes out in cup finals. Whether that support would thrive if the prospect of trophies was opened up by the absence of the big two is hard to say. The league could just as easily fall to the level of the Welsh or the Irish league.

Also just to remark on the comments about fitness above, there is fitness and then there is elite athleticism and genetics which only the wealthiest clubs can attract. The last couple of fixtures saw Celtic's Greg Taylor mark Leipzig's Mohamed Simakan, the former is having a great season for us but at 5'7" and never having been blessed with blistering pace there is only so much he can do against Simakan who resembled an NBA player with his power and speed. And I've no doubt Taylor is close to as 'fit' as he can be

Yes it is arrogant. It is arrogant to think that teams from Scotland deserve to be among tje elite from England, Germany, Italy, Spain etc.
There are plenty of sleeping giant clubs around Europe, doesn't mean they deserve to be up there.
You think you're bigger and better than you are. No one is owed anything in football, but it seems Old Firm fans think they  are entitled to it.
O Neill had a much much better squad than today's and demonstrated by how much better they were in Europe, even Strachan did better

Don't blame Hearts, Hibs or United because every time they produce a decent player you skim them off. You help keep the league as bad as it is.

[beninho]

If Celtic or Rangers qualify for the Champions league groups they deserve to be there. Not sure what tge talk of arrogance is about?

And buying the best players from other clubs in the leagues, that's footvall and happens everywhere. Most extreme is Munich who hoover them all including from Dortmund the second biggest team.

[Soul Requiem]

Don't blame Hearts, Hibs or United because every time they produce a decent player you skim them off. You help keep the league as bad as it is.

This happens in literally every league in the world, sport is about winning so you buy the best players available in order to achieve that goal. Bayern Munich are a case in point, they dominate the Bundesliga because they buy their rivals best players every year. This is not a Scottish centric phenomena.

[superflyweight]

Celtic fan from Ireland here - I don't really get what point the critics are trying to make of ourselves and Rangers here. They are two very big clubs, pretty sure both have average attendances well inside Europe's top 20 - however we all know that matters little in terms of financial power. They're quite simply held back by being in a small country and a small league, that's just a product of Scotland's population count compounded by having to compete with the EPL for national broadcasters. It's not arrogance to believe we ought to be among the European elite, the size of our fanbase and our rich history is testament to that and it's frustrating that these days much smaller clubs, particularly in England, are able to attract a higher calibre of player than us purely by having the fortune to be situated in a much bigger TV market or be propped up by some Gulf oil state or Russian oligarch.

I'm not going to pretend I haven't been disappointed by Celtic in the UCL this season, I will admit there was building expectation on the back of the domestic form and how a decent (but not dazzling) Rangers showed last season that progress in Europe wasn't as far out of reach as a lot of us had thought. However I have to say for anyone who hasn't watched our matches that we haven't exactly been outclassed outside of Leipzig away, with better finishing our position could look very different, Shakhtar away and (to a lesser extent) Leipzig at home were opportunities missed meanwhile even Real at home could have been very different with a bit more luck. As long as Postecoglou stays at the helm I believe we are on an upward trend, he's a very intelligent coach with great charisma and as he said last week all we can keep doing is keep qualifying for the CL every year and benefit from the experience and financial injection necessary to make progress. People have been citing Brugge and they've performed remarkably but it's their 5th consecutive season in the competition and spent £50m in the summer transfer window so clearly wasn't built overnight. I suspect some of our most talented players such as Jota and O'Riley will be tempted away in the next couple of years but the transfer fees received for them should be more than enough to reinvest in the squad. Jota in particular is the most skilful player I've seen in Scotland in at least 10 years.

Larsson was obviously exceptional but beyond him that Martin O'Neill team was no more skilful than the current Celtic crop. It was a lot more physical though

I'm not going to pass judgement on Rangers but it's pretty apparent that financially they aren't as secure as Celtic for obvious reasons and that has clearly held them back this season. The writing was on the wall when they failed to significantly reinvest in their squad on the back of the Europa final and CL qualification plus £50m in transfer sales.

The likelihood of us ever joining the EPL has all but gone and tbh I'm not all that sad about that as I see it as an excessively commercialised and stale battle of what are effectively corporate franchises now. Even Anfield's atmosphere on European nights pales in comparison to Celtic Park these days imo. A proposition I'm more interested in would be the development of a North Atlantic league featuring Scotland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and possibly Ireland. It's the only prospect of smaller countries raising their TV revenue to anything close to the Big 5. Obviously I doubt it will ever happen but maybe if the talks between the Dutch and Belgian leagues amount to anything then the chatter might grow.

Tbh I do think the biggest of the rest such as Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen etc are probably not maximising their potential which is a shame because I do believe these clubs have a considerable latent support that only comes out in cup finals. Whether that support would thrive if the prospect of trophies was opened up by the absence of the big two is hard to say. The league could just as easily fall to the level of the Welsh or the Irish league.

Also just to remark on the comments about fitness above, there is fitness and then there is elite athleticism and genetics which only the wealthiest clubs can attract. The last couple of fixtures saw Celtic's Greg Taylor mark Leipzig's Mohamed Simakan, the former is having a great season for us but at 5'7" and never having been blessed with blistering pace there is only so much he can do against Simakan who resembled an NBA player with his power and speed. And I've no doubt Taylor is close to as 'fit' as he can be

Yes it is arrogant. It is arrogant to think that teams from Scotland deserve to be among tje elite from England, Germany, Italy, Spain etc.
There are plenty of sleeping giant clubs around Europe, doesn't mean they deserve to be up there.
You think you're bigger and better than you are. No one is owed anything in football, but it seems Old Firm fans think they  are entitled to it.
O Neill had a much much better squad than today's and demonstrated by how much better they were in Europe, even Strachan did better

Don't blame Hearts, Hibs or United because every time they produce a decent player you skim them off. You help keep the league as bad as it is.

That ignores the growing disparity in financial resources between the teams at the very top and the rest. It's true in European competition and in domestic competitions. Only a select few teams can ever consistently reach the latter stages of the Champions League and in almost every domestic league in Europe, only a select few teams can ever compete for the title. As the financial disparity grows grow, the number of teams that can compete gets smaller.

[super_realist]

No it doesn't. The claim was that Larsson aside the squad today is as good as that squad. Clearly that is nonsense. What do they have now that is like Balde, Agathe, Sutton, Hartson, Lennon, Petrov, Mjallby, Viduka, Lambert, Moravcic etc?

[super_realist]

Don't blame Hearts, Hibs or United because every time they produce a decent player you skim them off. You help keep the league as bad as it is.

This happens in literally every league in the world, sport is about winning so you buy the best players available in order to achieve that goal. Bayern Munich are a case in point, they dominate the Bundesliga because they buy their rivals best players every year. This is not a Scottish centric phenomena.

You're missing the point. Celtic and Rangers are always asking these teams to step up and give them a better fight and do better in Europe, yet whenever a team produces a good player such as Turnbull, Hendry, Bain, Christie, Souttar, Kamara etc they get hoovered up by the OF. Clearly this denudes these teams of their greatest chance of competing or at least having a respectable defeat. So either Celtic and Rangers want a better league and they leave them alone, or they stop moaning about lack of competition.

The SPL has just 12 teams, it doesn't have the strength in depth of other leagues where they can get away with it.

[Soul Requiem]

Don't blame Hearts, Hibs or United because every time they produce a decent player you skim them off. You help keep the league as bad as it is.

This happens in literally every league in the world, sport is about winning so you buy the best players available in order to achieve that goal. Bayern Munich are a case in point, they dominate the Bundesliga because they buy their rivals best players every year. This is not a Scottish centric phenomena.

You're missing the point. Celtic and Rangers are always asking these teams to step up and give them a better fight and do better in Europe, yet whenever a team produces a good player such as Turnbull, Hendry, Bain, Christie, Souttar, Kamara etc they get hoovered up by the OF. Clearly this denudes these teams of their greatest chance of competing or at least having a respectable defeat. So either Celtic and Rangers want a better league and they leave them alone, or they stop moaning about lack of competition.  

The SPL has just 12 teams, it doesn't have the strength in depth of other leagues where they can get away with it.

I'm not missing any point because you do not have a point. Celtic and Rangers compete in Europe so need the best players available for that which is often players from their own league, it's the way football works all over the world. You do not willingly choose to stagnate for the benefit of your rivals, what a nonsense comment yet again.

[super_realist]

They can't have it both ways though. If you want a domestic league which is of a higher level of competition so that you stand a better chance in Europe, you don't cynically make those teams you play week in week out worse.

This has a knock on effect into lack of competition, investment, inevitable failure in Europe etc.

I still wouldn't expect Celtic or Rangers to be getting beaten by Aberdeen or Hearts, but there's no point in deliberately making these teams worse so you win 4-0 when you get spanked in Europe.
It's basic stuff.

There are alternative sources of players to your own league, Celtic and Rangers are sh1tting on their own doorstep and then blame these clubs for not being good enough.

[JAS]

They can't have it both ways though. If you want a domestic league which is of a higher level of competition so that you stand a better chance in Europe, you don't cynically make those teams you play week in week out worse.

This has a knock on effect into lack of competition, investment, inevitable failure in Europe etc.

I still wouldn't expect Celtic or Rangers to be getting beaten by Aberdeen or Hearts, but there's no point in deliberately making these teams worse so you win 4-0 when you get spanked in Europe.
It's basic stuff.

There are alternative sources of players to your own league, Celtic and Rangers are sh1tting on their own doorstep and then blame these clubs for not being good enough.

Lol, I was beginning to think it was just me but in spite of everybody else telling you, you're still not getting it. It is really amusing how on most matters you come across as fairly right of centre, certainly anti-left, yet when it comes to Scottish football you basically want it run on Socialist principles, a fair redistribution of wealth. I'm probably the opposite, I'm clearly left of centre yet keen for the O/F to embrace the market economy and capitalise on any opportunity that comes their way.

Political leanings aside, based on what your saying, the only solution is for the smaller clubs to grow MORE talent and some talent that will be snapped up by clubs from down south and even beyond. How many clubs outside the Old Firm have well functioning academies that churn out more either of the O/F academies? How many O/F academy players get loaned out to other clubs? The "boo hoo!! the big teams have pinched all our best players - please stop doing it it's spoiling the game" is a rather pathetic if I'm honest.

[JAS]

I wonder what percentage of people think a conversation along the following lines has taken place in the past few months...discuss.

Kwasi to Hunt - ‘I’ll short the pound and then you long it, I’ve let me mates know what we are doing they are going to love us”.

[superflyweight]

No it doesn't. The claim was that Larsson aside the squad today is as good as that squad. Clearly that is nonsense. What do they have now that is like Balde, Agathe, Sutton, Hartson, Lennon, Petrov, Mjallby, Viduka, Lambert, Moravcic etc?

But the point is that the financial disparity means that Celtic couldn't go out now and buy (or afford the wages of) Hartson, Sutton and most of the others because those players would be hoovered up by mid-table Premier League teams and paid wages that Scottish teams can't match.  

It means that they then have to operate in a different market taking chances on players who have not yet proven themselves or who have otherwise been ignored.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and it makes it harder to build a consistently successful team with sufficient European experience as the players need development and or time to integrate and those that do work generally get picked off by teams that can pay higher transfer fees and bigger wages (in the same way that Celtic and Rangers try to pick up the best domestic players).

[McLaren]

I am not sure why people waste their time by arguing about football with Super. He his clearly utterly clueless on the matter. In fact he has admitted in the past he doesn't watch, play or follow football so I have no idea what he is basing these opinions on.

[JAS]

I am not sure why people waste their time by arguing about football with Super. He his clearly utterly clueless on the matter. In fact he has admitted in the past he doesn't watch, play or follow football so I have no idea what he is basing these opinions on.

What’s even odder is that there is a Scottish football thread on the Footie forum which was last contributed to in Aug 2019. The chat here if migrated would probably make it the busiest thread on the footie forum :-p

[super_realist]

No it doesn't. The claim was that Larsson aside the squad today is as good as that squad. Clearly that is nonsense. What do they have now that is like Balde, Agathe, Sutton, Hartson, Lennon, Petrov, Mjallby, Viduka, Lambert, Moravcic etc?

But the point is that the financial disparity means that Celtic couldn't go out now and buy (or afford the wages of) Hartson, Sutton and most of the others because those players would be hoovered up by mid-table Premier League teams and paid wages that Scottish teams can't match.  

It means that they then have to operate in a different market taking chances on players who have not yet proven themselves or who have otherwise been ignored.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and it makes it harder to build a consistently successful team with sufficient European experience as the players need development and or time to integrate and those that do work generally get picked off by teams that can pay higher transfer fees and bigger wages (in the same way that Celtic and Rangers try to pick up the best domestic players).

Of course they can't any more, but that doesn't mean this squad is as good as was claimed.

The product gets what it deserves, and Celtic and Rangers have to cut their cloth (and expectations) accordingly.

There's no point thinking you can mix it in Europe when youve fallen to the levels where you're a feeder club to Southampton.
When it cones to living in the past Celtic and Rangers are worse than pre Klopp Liverpool.

The OF have for many reasons fallen several rungs on the football ladder, that's not even in doubt.

[Soul Requiem]

Europa League Final 2022

Eintracht Frankfurt 1-1 Glasgow

Looks like competing in Europe to me.

[super_realist]

They can't have it both ways though. If you want a domestic league which is of a higher level of competition so that you stand a better chance in Europe, you don't cynically make those teams you play week in week out worse.

This has a knock on effect into lack of competition, investment, inevitable failure in Europe etc.

I still wouldn't expect Celtic or Rangers to be getting beaten by Aberdeen or Hearts, but there's no point in deliberately making these teams worse so you win 4-0 when you get spanked in Europe.
It's basic stuff.

There are alternative sources of players to your own league, Celtic and Rangers are sh1tting on their own doorstep and then blame these clubs for not being good enough.

Lol, I was beginning to think it was just me but in spite of everybody else telling you, you're still not getting it. It is really amusing how on most matters you come across as fairly right of centre, certainly anti-left, yet when it comes to Scottish football you basically want it run on Socialist principles, a fair redistribution of wealth. I'm probably the opposite, I'm clearly left of centre yet keen for the O/F to embrace the market economy and capitalise on any opportunity that comes their way.

Political leanings aside, based on what your saying, the only solution is for the smaller clubs to grow MORE talent and some talent that will be snapped up by clubs from down south and even beyond. How many clubs outside the Old Firm have well functioning academies that churn out more either of the O/F academies? How many O/F academy players get loaned out to other clubs? The "boo hoo!! the big teams have pinched all our best players - please stop doing it it's spoiling the game" is a rather pathetic if I'm honest.

Not at all. I'm contrasting the ridiculous expectation of other teams to give them competition, when they're the ones who take away tje very things which might enable them to do so.

I'm absolutely fine with players being bought by whoever, but if they do that, don't turn round and moan the league isn't competitive. You can't want one thing, then be the very thing that stops them giving you a good game.

Its Like Koepka saying he joined Liv to play less golf then moaning there isn't enough golf.

[super_realist]

Europa League Final 2022

Eintracht Frankfurt 1-1 Glasgow

Looks like competing in Europe to me.

One swallow doesn't make a summer

[Soul Requiem]

Europa League Final 2022

Eintracht Frankfurt 1-1 Glasgow

Looks like competing in Europe to me.

One swallow doesn't make a summer

It was the very definition of competing in Europe, you may wish to move the goalposts again.

[JAS]

Europa League Final 2022

Eintracht Frankfurt 1-1 Glasgow

Looks like competing in Europe to me.

One swallow doesn't make a summer

It was the very definition of competing in Europe, you may wish to move the goalposts again.

Mac is right Soul, such are the replies its almost like trying to have a conversation with a pre programmed Russian bot that keeps churning out the same nonsense that’s been rebutted to pieces already.

[JAS]

Still I suppose it saves us all from his political wisdom. Might be an idea to hook him up with Lizzie TrussterFxxk on social media and get her involved in a fun filled debate on Scottish football, could do the whole country a favour

[super_realist]

Yes,  they competed well for a season, as many other similarly no mark teams have done on occasion, doesn't mean they deserve anything or that the fans should expect it every season.
Over time though neither Old Firm team has a particularly good record and we are now seeing both regress to their realistic level.
Clearly a mile off Champions League level. They'd actually be better forfeiting the CL and going into Europa as that suits their level more closely. Not that they will of course.
Neither club wants to do anything though which might help them. They just blame the SFA for not getting them a TV deal they think they deserve which is laughable. They take no action themselves.

[beninho]

Unsure how they can be a mile off champions league level when they qualified fairly to get into the champions league. The popes Rangers even beat teams the qualify.

Both teams deserved to be in the group stages of the champions league. Obviously

[McLaren]

Super

You keep saying CL level. But there are several CL levels. Those teams that can expect to win, teams that could get to QF, those who could sneak out of the group phase and so on. The old firm and other teams of that size are in a set of teams where they could get Europa league if they play well.

[beninho]

44 days? As PM. Its laughable and shambolic. And talk of Boris again. Do they want totally kill their party? Bunch of morons.

[super_realist]

Unsure how they can be a mile off champions league level when they qualified fairly to get into the champions league. The popes Rangers even beat teams the qualify.

Both teams deserved to be in the group stages of the champions league. Obviously

They are group whipping boys, and it's played out that way.

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