England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

Rugby Fan wrote:Sam Cane (fractured cheek) and Dane Coles (calf) are out of the tour. for NZ.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/58722224

It's a shame Cane is missing.....his replacement will undoubtedly be a better player.

So anyone expecting a loss on Sunday....

king_carlos wrote:Thinking about the RWC squad size going up to 33 rather than 31 I can't help but think that a fair bit of England's squad must be pretty nailed on when I think about a potential 33-man squad (not necessarily what I'd pick but what I reckon the coaches might be thinking). Guessing at how you'd structure a 33 man squad (i.e. how much cover you want in certain positions) and then plugging in the obvious names I get:

1.Genge, Mako, Marler
2.George, LCD
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4.Itoje, Chessum
5.Hill, Tizard
6.Lawes, Willis
7.Curry, Ludlam/Underhill
8.Vunipola, Dombrandt

9.JvP, Quirke, Youngs
10.Smith, Ford

11.May, Freeman
12.Farrell, Porter/Dingwall/Marchant/Lawrence
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Watson, Nowell
15.Steward, Arundell

I'd say you're probably looking at carrying 3 SHs and an extra front row compared to previous RWC selections. Maybe that extra front row is a 3rd hooker (Blamire, Dolly, McGuigan, Singleton, Walker all in the running there it seems) rather than 3 props on each side.

If (some big and worrying ifs with several of our best outside backs) most are fit I'd guess that squad structure and many of those players must have a very good chance of selection though?

A centre spot clearly up for grabs though that's for sure.

On the wings I feel it's fairly reliant on Watson and May staying fit or Arundell really settling as a starter.

I can't remember the last time Watson played and May is getting into a more unpredictable phase in his career. I am not sure how much we can rely on either. I think Nowell is close to done too.

Still - things can change rapidly. 15 was not a position of strength for a couple of years and now we have two very good young players there

11 Murley
14 Freeman
15 Steward

Now thats a nice back 3...that will cause all sorts of offensive issues and strong defensively.

Obviously could be some surprises with team selection but I'd be pretty surprised to lose against Argentina as of now. The wing selection is a bit of a concern for me. I'm really not as yet sold on Murley, or Freeman as a winger. Hassel-Collins has more to him than Murley for me who I don't think is particularly outstanding at any aspect of his game. Clearly scores lots of tries at club level, as has Freeman but not sure it's going to be translated to internationals. Got a good couple of games first as far as opposition go though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Obviously could be some surprises with team selection but I'd be pretty surprised to lose against Argentina as of now. The wing selection is a bit of a concern for me. I'm really not as yet sold on Murley, or Freeman as a winger. Hassel-Collins has more to him than Murley for me who I don't think is particularly outstanding at any aspect of his game. Clearly scores lots of tries at club level, as has Freeman but not sure it's going to be translated to internationals. Got a good couple of games first as far as opposition go though.

It's difficult to know if a good Prem winger can cross over and impress in the International game.

We've been blessed for a number of years now with two of the best around in May & Watson (With Nowell good when fit), so it's a bit of a transition period dangerously close to a WC.

Radwan & Arundell are the X Factor options with 1 having to get a starting spot at some point imo. Our lack of tries is a concern and we need somebody who can change a game for us.

I prefer Murley to HC, he has some great natural strength but I'm not sure he can step up......time will tell. Big Joe C has also been in some excellent form of late, as had Daly.

4 from:

Nowell
Cokanasiga
Arundell
Freeman
Radwan
Murley

Or the hybrids of Daly and Marchant?

What's the news on Arundell, has he recovered from knock on ankle I think it was. Is he fit for selection?
Jones loves Nowell so can see him being picked.
I'd love to see Arundell on one wing and Radwan on other but that'll never happen but for fantasy rugby those two could cause havoc.
Freeman did well in series v Aus in summer so my feeling is Jones will pick Nowell and Freeman with Cokanasiga or Arundell bench.
Lots of support for OHC but I'm not convinced as yet.

Arundell out for first 2 at least I think I read. A back 3 of Nowell, Freeman and Steward is slow. Very slow.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Arundell out for first 2 at least I think I read. A back 3 of Nowell, Freeman and Steward is slow. Very slow.

Well I'm not saying be my pick but what I suspect Jones will go for. Is Freeman slow? He's not as quick as Arundell or Radwan but who is. Jones in past has gone out and out speedster one wing and more solid one on other so could happen. I like Joe C but not sure his defence is Int class yet. I think England will/should beat Argentina so maybe scope for a slight risk on wing so he could go with Joe C or Murley on one wing and the more tried and tested Nowell on other. Slight experimentation against Arg and Japan is fine, cannot do that when facing NZ or SA.
Steward as we know is as nailed on at 15 as can be so it's question of other 2 at back.

Whatever happens, Jones will ALWAYS select one or two contrary picks which will have us pondering.

Freeman is pretty quick. Decision making lacking in the summer, but he's young and will get better on that. The team that I think Jones may line up with is bit different to mine. Reckon 6/7 differences in the starting lineup if people are fit. That's normally the way though.

Id prefer Murley to Nowell...but Nowell is the go to from Jones....a winger who can ruck and do a flankers job but not score tries...

Nowell, Watson and May have been absolutely brilliant to watch over the years. I do think their time is coming to an end, and I'd be surprised if they all went to the RWC. Nowell seems too slow, Watson too injury prone and May might finally losing that edge of speed, plus his injury record is also getting to be a concern.

Geordie wrote:Id prefer Murley to Nowell...but Nowell is the go to from Jones....a winger who can ruck and do a flankers job but not score tries...

Quite. At club level, Murley is currently more like Nowell than Nowell himself, who looks like a shadow of the player he was. And, for the avoidance of doubt, Murley scores lots of tries.

To be fair, Murley's excellence has kind of crept up even on Quins fans. A year ago, we were much more excited by Lynagh (sadly now recovering from multiple operations - hope he gets back to full fitness). Murley doesn't stand out as particularly big or fast. What you notice if you watch him enough, though, is that he turns up again and again doing the right thing. He has a low error count, no apparent weaknesses and a very good rugby brain. Whether he can translate that to international level we won't know unless he's capped, but I suspect he rates highly on the sorts of things coaches measure even if he doesn't really register with fans as a standout.

When was Sean Robinson called up for England? Did i miss that one?
EDIT - Called up as a replacement for Ludlam.

24 mins ago geordie.

Ludlam is injured.

Class act...so chuffed for Robinson. Consistently one of the best back 5's in the league.

Farrell is back in and Lawes not (RFU site):

FORWARDS

Alex Coles (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 37 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 41 caps)
Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 39 caps)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps)
Jonny Hill (Sale Sharks, 15 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 58 caps)
George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
Tom Pearson (London Irish, uncapped)
Val Rapava Ruskin (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sean Robinson (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 52 caps)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Hugh Tizard (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 64 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 70 caps)
Jack Willis (unattached, 4 caps)
BACKS

Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 97 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Will Joseph (London Irish, 1 cap)
Max Malins (Saracens, 14 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 69 caps)
Cadan Murley (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 42 caps)
Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 48 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 13 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 46 caps)
Jack van Poortlviet (Leicester Tigers, 3 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 117 caps)
Unavailable for selection due to injury: Alfie Barbeary, Ollie Chessum, Trevor Davison, Nic Dolly, Charlie Ewels, George Ford, Tommy Freeman, Jamie George, Sam Jeffries, Nick Isiekwe, Courtney Lawes, Lewis Ludlam, Louis Lynagh, Rato Naulago, Harry Randall, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill, Jack Walker.

I did just double take at Rato Naulago.

Hes clearly taking the chance to have a good look at the locks available to him.

Ribbans
Robinson
Tizzard
Coles
Itoje
Hill

It's a pretty green squad all in all - I start to see why he's retaining some of the injured or off colour players who've got more experience.

I'd imagine that Robinson is there as back row cover with Lawes and Ludlam out. Itoje is a slight doubt though.

I keep looking back at that squad and having more questions. Thought May had a dislocated elbow? How is he there and Roebuck and Radwan not?

I dont expect to see Radwan in the squad much from now on. Clearly Jones isnt happy about his defence or something...

England have a glut of good young wingers.

Here we go, what's the betting starting 15 will include Youngs, Furbank, Slade, Nowell, May.
If I were Radwan I'd see if I could qualify elsewhere as he's not getting a look in.

Like deja vu all over again and not in a good way.

FFS.

mountain man wrote:Here we go, what's the betting starting 15 will include Youngs, Furbank, Slade, Nowell, May.
If I were Radwan I'd see if I could qualify elsewhere as he's not getting a look in.

Like deja vu all over again and not in a good way.

FFS.

Radwan is already England capped and I don't think Egypt has much of a rugby team

I know and was being facetious but my point stands about liable to pick either past it or players who never got there in first place. Hopefully I'm wrong!

What happened to Joe Marchant? Seems really weird how he's been dropped when he's probably been one of the top backs in the team.

Eddie Jones is on the revamped Telegraph rugby podcast this week (Brian Moore has been moved on as host, in favour of Ben Coles, Charlie Morgan & Charlie Richardson)

He touched on how he approaches selection, saying he tries to shut out the public clamour for a flavour-of-the-month player in favour of a bigger team plan. Though he didn't mention specifics, it's easy to imagine which players he might mean, all the way back to Don Armand.

He said there are a lot of players of very similar ability in England, which he thinks is also true of South Africa. In Japan and Australia, he found clearer distinctions between best and next best. Consequently, when he assesses an England player, he tries to look at what else they might contribute.

Jones says he likes to see players live, as he can see how they operate in ways TV coverage cannot show. He prefers to go alone, not even with one of his assistants in tow. While he might have someone he particularly wants to watch, there are times when another player catches his eye, which he particulary enjoys. Henry Arundell is a recent example.

yappysnap wrote:What happened to Joe Marchant? Seems really weird how he's been dropped when he's probably been one of the top backs in the team.

Its laughable...a player of his ability and hes dropped because he huffed Jones.

Ill be happy when Jones moves on now.

He huffed Jones?

Well what else can it be 7.5?

Something must have happened on the Aussie tour....

The guy is TOO good not to be in the squad yet hes just dropped for nothing...and we know Jones has a history of being incredibly petty.

I don't know the phrase Geordie, disrespect thing?. I'd have him in over Porter who I think is a nuts and bolts player. But then I think I'd have called up Lawrence ahead of either.

Assume it's like going off it a huff. Taking offence, that sort of thing. Being " in a huff" is a well known phrase.
Marchant was consistently best centre for England last 12 months or so. Slade did ok nothing more. Lawrence on his games this season for Bath been on fire.
However, it's Eddie so illogical selections are his MO.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't know the phrase Geordie, disrespect thing?. I'd have him in over Porter who I think is a nuts and bolts player. But then I think I'd have called up Lawrence ahead of either.

Sorry has Marchant huffed him....(maybe its a northern phrase...?)

Yes has he miffed him / disrespected / slighted him in some form.

Its all i can think of.

I feel slighted. It's the first time as a smoggy someone has called me a southerner!

Apologies...i didnt know you were a fellow northerner....

Have you never heard the phrase huffed?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I feel slighted. It's the first time as a smoggy someone has called me a southerner!

It's surely one of the nicer things you've been called coming form Middlesbrough

We've discussed my smoggy nature before surely? Thinking about it my mum uses being in a huff (mood). As mountain says above.

I do think that Joseph is in there to offer roughly what Marchant does. He's been very impressive himself for LI. Perhaps a bit more physical. Harsh on Marchant but despite being better than Porter and Slade he hasn't managed to replicated is Harlequins form.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I feel slighted. It's the first time as a smoggy someone has called me a southerner!

It's surely one of the nicer things you've been called coming form Middlesbrough

You b**ch.

Haha....yea we have, beautiful place is Middlesbr......I mean Yarm.

Ah. My home town.

Odd. Retallick didn't accept it was a red card offence (stone wall) but only got a 3 match ban reduced to 2 for good previous.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63471832

Presumably if he thinks it's not a red it'll be appealed, not sure if they can then up it for being frivolous?

I championed Marchant for a long time but do feel he hasn't really taken his chances that well. He was never terrible but didn't really shine. His best moment being the Quirke try against the Boks but at the end of the day that was a diabolical bit of communication in defence from the Boks more than Marchant doing something incredible. You can only play what's in front of you of course but Brad Barritt did once set-up a try against NZ after being given a gap big enough for a house to slip through...

I don't think Porter is a long term international centre either. Better defensively than Marchant and better in contact but he isn't going to standout in either regard at international level. His distribution and kicking games are solid but no more. He can play 12 though which might be factoring in selection? He's better at 13 but started a Prem final win at 12 so is no mug at inside centre whereas I don't think I've ever seen Marchant there.

I'd have Lawrence in the squad at present ahead of Porter, Marchant or Joseph I think. Will Joseph does look a talent though.

I really think Daly is deserving of a recall as a winger who covers 13 as well. His form this season with Sarries has been back close to his best.

Do we have the stats of how many times Marchant has played for England and at 13?

Most of them have been at 13, but some from the bench.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't know the phrase Geordie, disrespect thing?. I'd have him in over Porter who I think is a nuts and bolts player. But then I think I'd have called up Lawrence ahead of either.

I dunno if I'd call Porter nuts and bolts. He's pretty raw, surprising step and power in contact. General lack of interest in his own personal safety is uncommon in a back.

He's barely played this season and has been out for a couple of games with concussion. Not someone I'd be bringing back into the England side, not while Lawrence is in red hot form and Marchant is reliably good at international level albeit not having brought his full club form to England yet.

I'd foolishly hoped for a 12 to 14 combination of Manu, Lawrence, Marchant and Steward.

Geordie wrote:Do we have the stats of how many times Marchant has played for England and at 13?

Overall for England:

13 apps, 7 starts

5 of 7 starts at 13

Last season:

7 apps, 6 starts

4 of 6 starts at 13. Plus the Boks game where he started on the wing and played nearly 80 minutes at 13.

So not masses of caps obviously but he did get a decent amount of game time last season, including 3 of 5 Six Nations games, at 13 without particularly shining.

To be fair the whole backline failed to shine over those games, I felt that only Marchant and Steward came out of most of them with any credibility.

It’s tough to judge Marchant (or any other player in the backline) on the opportunities he’s been given, because it’s been a backline in transition in both style of play and personnel, and the position that probably suffers the most when things don’t gel is outside centre. If the backline isn’t firing, they see the ball less than any other position, and if the defence isn’t working they’re probably the most exposed position.

I would have liked to see Jones persist with Marchant because of how he plays off Smith for Quins, and because in the heads-up game that Eddie seems to be working towards there isn’t a better attacking 13. But it’s clear that this autumn marks a shift in Eddie’s thinking and personnel (something I’ve had off the record from one player not selected) and Marchant apparently doesn’t fit those plans. To be fair, if the expectation is that Manu is fit, then Slade and Farrell are probably the better options to pair with him, but if he gets injured again we;re back to Farrell and Slade which I don’t think is necessarily the best option.