England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

Our attack has shown exactly zilch in the last 2 years......what the hell is EJ doing? The coaching is clearly substandard in the backs whereas the forwards are pretty decent. Interesting that Mako struggling in the scrums....never seen that before and we have Marler not in the squad.

Oh well......we just have to wait for the post Eddie era.

Just put the kids to bed and turned on the laptop expecting to read about a solid England victory.

What happened there?

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Sony worry as Eddie said...he's keeping back all the secret tactics for the world Cup....

For who though? He'll have to make it there with England first.

Hopefully we get shot of him now and get someone in to at least give us a chance In the 6n and Wc

Problem is the guy who is nailed on would play the same tactics as this. I pray that the RFU reconsider and go for McCall or Robertson.

Good win for Argentina. They are a good side. Were England complacent?

Best try scored by argentina

Yes but he might actually play rhe right players and select some pace in rhe backs.

You never got the impression that any England player was aware of the state of the match. "Let's make sure we don't concede here," being a thought everyone should have had.

Farrell, Genge and Nowell were the named leaders It was hard to see any influence. Farrell didn't wind up the referee, which is handy, but didn't compose his team to get the win.

TJ wrote:Good win for Argentina.  They are a good side.   Were England complacent?

Best try scored by argentina

No complacency. Poor execution and lack of ambition from selection. Poor subs on a scrum demolishing theirs and props still showing up in the loose.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Sony worry as Eddie said...he's keeping back all the secret tactics for the world Cup....

For who though? He'll have to make it there with England first.

Hopefully we get shot of him now and get someone in to at least give us a chance In the 6n and Wc

Yep new coach needed with a game plan. Argentina were ok but we were just so poor. Eddy Jones thanks but time to move on and take Ben Youngs with you. Great player in his prime but wow was so poor today.

TJ wrote:

Heaf wrote:England dreadful but so were the officials gifting Argentina a minimum of 8 points

And thee ref didn't give a pen for the high tackle by Newall or the foot up hit in the air on the jumper.

its not the refs fault you lost.  IMO its a slow set of backs.  Faster backs would have scored more and stopped the breakaway try.  there is no substitute for pace

The officials were terrible - but I agree on the backs - and it's not as if we don't have plenty of fast backs to choose from - that's on Eddie

Fair enough

I get tired of the commentators not understanding Argentina are a good side now and also have far more to their game than a scrum and maul.

Farrell really struggling with the post match interview. Was he even part of any attack?

Rugby Fan wrote:You never got the impression that any England player was aware of the state of the match. "Let's make sure we don't concede here," being a thought everyone should have had.

Farrell, Genge and Nowell were the named leaders It was hard to see any influence. Farrell didn't wind up the referee, which is handy, but didn't compose his team to get the win.  

Hard to know what he could do. Call them into a huddle and oi Benny when we're in behind and they're scrabbling please don't throw the ball on the floor miles away from anyone......no not into the crowd either....ah it doesn't matter go do your thing which has kept your place for 118 caps.

TJ wrote:Fair enough

I get tired of the commentators not understanding Argentina are a good side now and also have far more to their game than a scrum and maul.

Fair enough they didn't even have those today. We should have buried them by 15 points today.

Let's be honest and admit that Argentina were not even very good. They offered nothing apart from 1 very well taken try and were on the back foot for most of the match. England just have nothing behind the pack and have not for a very long time.

We have poor coaching, poor selections, no continuity etc etc. There attack coach has changed a few times, but the current one is clearly not working. Big problems for England.

How frustrating was that? Really feels like that one that got away. What on earth was with the inability to clear the ball from restart. Get the ball off the pitch and restart. It feels likey they've got mince between their ears some times. The ref is really hot on us being offside, so maybe take an extra step back?

Watching this England team on the pitch is like listening to Eddie coach. A team with too many yesterday players coached by yesterday’s coach. Poor footballing skills, no pace, and no ideas on the pitch. Instead of looking forward to the RWC because we might win it (we won’t), I’m looking forward to a new coach, with fresh ideas, and the retiring of the old guard.

Still, here’s a free tip for the new coach (obviously Eddie won’t get this) – somewhere on the pitch you have to have pace.

and Smith has offered nothing now over several matches at this level. Maybe the coaching and lack of a plan or he is just not ready? Should we go Farrell, Manu and Slade? And bring Marler in for Mako and that might improve things?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Farrell didn't wind up the referee, which is handy, but didn't compose his team to get the win.  

Hard to know what he could do.

When did you see him trying?

hugehandoff wrote:Let's be honest and admit that Argentina were not even very good. They offered nothing apart from 1 very well taken try and were on the back foot for most of the match. England just have nothing behind the pack and have not for a very long time.

We have poor coaching, poor selections, no continuity etc etc. There attack coach has changed a few times, but the current one is clearly not working. Big problems for England.

It's only ever been very good under Wisemantel for me (under Jones).

Very frustrating - Argentina didn't have to do much at all in reality just live off England errors and poor officiating and ride their luck that England kept muffing their lines ...

Japan will be licking their lips for next week...the pace they play at we can only dream of.

What is England's record this year? The Aussie tour has masked some massive cracks. We've lost to some really average sides. If it wasn't so close to the world cup , surely his position would be jeopardy.

Cumbrian wrote:What is England's record this year?  The Aussie tour has masked some massive cracks.  We've lost to some really average sides.  If it wasn't so close to the world cup , surely his position would be jeopardy.

Sa replaced their coach near a world Cup.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell didn't wind up the referee, which is handy, but didn't compose his team to get the win.  

Hard to know what he could do.

When did you see him trying?[/quote]

Think that's unfair. Farrell is a very good communicator on the pitch, hard to discern at Twickenham but you regularly here him calling plays in attack and defence on ref mics. He was also calling players into huddles as the game went on. I think there is a question of what we expect players to do on the pitch. What would you have liked to see change for instance. Individual mistakes sill pens what do you say. I was taking the kick obviously with those youngs comments but in those instances, particularly the nice Smith break what could you say? At this level you need to convert those chances and youngs again was so far away from what we need.

There was little room to change how the team were going to play. If there were more pace out wide you could play a bit looser; but there really wasn't. You could say that they could mirror saracens a bit more with more offloads but that really needs drumming in in training surely?

We've lost to some really average sides

Including scotland in that

hugehandoff wrote:and Smith has offered nothing now over several matches at this level. Maybe the coaching and lack of a plan or he is just not ready? Should we go Farrell, Manu and Slade? And bring Marler in for Mako and that might improve things?

I think on that you have to pick apart the game and instances where he's getting the ball a bit more. I don't see many mistakes or wrong choices from him bar that overcooked kick in the first half to the wing. Perhaps we should just play farrell at 10 bring in Porter in midfield and say we're not trying to play wide, we want to be solid, boring and try to sneak it?

I'd prefer to attack more but clearly it isn't working. More from tactics for me.

Still not sure why they took Genge off for Mako?

IMO the Combination of Farrell at 12 and Smith at 10 does not work.  Ive never been a big Farrell fan but if you are going to play him it needs to be at 10.  Again IMO its either Smith or Farrell depending how you want to play

Edit - Smith is a creative flair player. Play two straightforward guys outside him is not going to work. He needs guys with guile. Is Farrell / tuilagi the stodgiest centre pairing in a top side? Smith has no foil for his trickery and no one to combine with

Geordie wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:What is England's record this year?  The Aussie tour has masked some massive cracks.  We've lost to some really average sides.  If it wasn't so close to the world cup , surely his position would be jeopardy.

Sa replaced their coach near a world Cup.  

Rassie was apointed after the 2017 Nov internationals just one year our from the RWC. England are on the easy side of the draw though so a semi is almost guarenteed.

Heaf wrote:Still not sure why they took Genge off for Mako?

Not sure why Mako's in the squad. Rodd's a better scrummager and he's the only other loosehead we've got in the squad I believe. I don't understand the obsessions with Mako. He simply can't scrummage at the top level.

Mako time long up. Same with Young's.
Nowell did nothing. Joe C one wing with actual pace on other .Smith anonymous but has to be 10. Barely heard Curry being mentioned in Comms. Start Willis instead.
I don't know but something has to change as that was diabolical.

mountain man wrote:Mako time long up. Same with Young's.
Nowell did nothing. Joe C one wing with actual pace on other .Smith anonymous but has to be 10. Barely heard Curry being mentioned in Comms. Start Willis instead.
I don't know but something has to change as that was diabolical.

Play locks at lock and go back to playing 2 flankers.

England actually have great players but their game plan is dreadful. Kick all posession away, fish for penalties and celebrate them like they have just scored. This side has so much more to offer than that. I really doubt Jones is holding something back at this stage but Englands draw is very favourable.

Fair enough but itoje at 6 wasn't reason we lost. General malaise over whole team with several really poor

Haven't fact-checked this but could be an omen  

"Argentina's last victory at Twickenham prompted the sacking of England head coach Andy Robinson, the hiring of Brian Ashton and a run to the Rugby World Cup final less than a year later."

mountain man wrote:Fair enough but itoje at 6 wasn't reason we lost. General malaise over whole team with several really poor

Malaise sets out from the coach downwards. If you were analysing where we went wrong there I fear it would be similar to where Ireland sa sit. Oh well its 1 point if the ref correctly calls the knock on we win hence its all OK. When's the last game you felt yup we have that right? For me probably the semi vs nz. There were a run of games to that too where I felt its all there. A final performance  under par where we lost our best tight head and had Vunipola create chaos for our own scrum along with daly and youngs crumbli g under the pressure has led us down a different path since....and I think its been all down hill from there. Yes we won both comps in 2020 but it was dreadful rugby and that's all we've seen.

Of course I love watching England win but I do actually prefer to be entertained! The calls for Jones head ( understabdable) only mean Borthwick anyway so no change. Unless we get a good attack coach too...

Heaf wrote:Haven't fact-checked this but could be an omen  

"Argentina's last victory at Twickenham prompted the sacking of England head coach Andy Robinson, the hiring of Brian Ashton and a run to the Rugby World Cup final less than a year later."

Christ, I hope England don't get Brian Ashton back. A run to the World Cup final (also held in France in 2007) would be nice.

Perhaps they should stop fannying around in Jersey on bloody paddle boards and just play training games together to get their shape right before they play internationals. Team building should consist of a few beers in the bar.

Didn't respect Argentina enough and went charging around without any game plan. Bang average sides boring it out today. The standard and quality was below prem standard and way below European cup. Almost glad we lost as this highlights that we are light years behind where we should be and we can't hide behind the odd good result. The all blacks have done well to parachute a new coaching combo and are reaping the benefits. Perhaps the RFU could also insist he plays inform players too. Soon the fans will speak when Twickenham is half empty because no one wants to pay £100 to see England stink out the stadium.

Jeepers the stats are one sided. I don't think I have ever seen a side so far ahead on the stats lose before

TJ wrote:Jeepers the stats are one sided.  I don't think I have ever seen a side so far ahead on the stats lose before

Kinda similar to how Argentina beat NZ in NZ this year. Two big away for them this year.

Harsh on their performance vs nz there collapse.

After half time we were getting our game in place, we were looking fluid in attack but then we made mistakes and we were chasing our tail.

"We made silly mistakes but I like the way the team went about it. We didn't finish well, there was that lack of cohesion.

"It's not good enough - we realise it's not good enough."

From Jones via Beeb. A slight glimmer of hope that you need a better link between forwards and backs, better distribution from 9 and some guys with real pace and threat on the wings?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Harsh on their performance vs nz there collapse.

From memory they won with all three pointers in a game that NZ dominated posession and territory but could have forget.

They weren't reliant on NZ errors from my memory but I suppose I could be forgetting more than you!

No 7&1/2 wrote:After half time we were getting our game in place, we were looking fluid in attack but then we made mistakes and we were chasing our tail.

"We made silly mistakes but I like the way the team went about it. We didn't finish well, there was that lack of cohesion.

"It's not good enough - we realise it's not good enough."

From Jones via Beeb. A slight glimmer of hope that you need a better link between forwards and backs, better distribution from 9 and some guys with real pace and threat on the wings?

They weren't the reason we lost though. We lost because the discipline and the ability of the forwards to execute basic skills to allow us to exit our own half was woefully lacking. Doesn't matter what else we do if we can't do those basic things and cough up possession and penalties in our own half.

The attack was passable, a bit flat still. No pace out wide, Youngs picking and stepping but not on the same page as his forwards and his passing game not quick enough. Smith running down blind alleys, Farrell predictable. Manu, Steward and Cokanasiga were all pretty good though. Switch the 9s, bring May in for Nowell and give the 10 and 12 a kick up the backside. Unless we sort the forwards out though it's a waste of time.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:After half time we were getting our game in place, we were looking fluid in attack but then we made mistakes and we were chasing our tail.

"We made silly mistakes but I like the way the team went about it. We didn't finish well, there was that lack of cohesion.

"It's not good enough - we realise it's not good enough."

From Jones via Beeb. A slight glimmer of hope that you need a better link between forwards and backs, better distribution from 9 and some guys with real pace and threat on the wings?

They weren't the reason we lost though. We lost because the discipline and the ability of the forwards to execute basic skills to allow us to exit our own half was woefully lacking. Doesn't matter what else we do if we can't do those basic things and cough up possession and penalties in our own half.

The attack was passable, a bit flat still. No pace out wide, Youngs picking and stepping but not on the same page as his forwards and his passing game not quick enough. Smith running down blind alleys, Farrell predictable. Manu, Steward and Cokanasiga were all pretty good though. Switch the 9s, bring May in for Nowell and give the 10 and 12 a kick up the backside. Unless we sort the forwards out though it's a waste of time.

Let's not beat around the bush more. Youngs is not good enough to play for England. The vast difference the second van Poortvliet came on was startling. If he or Quirke had started with the other coming on Wed have won.

Steward was outpaced for the Argentina breakaway try. thats not good enough. A FB needs pace

TJ wrote:Steward was outpaced for the Argentina breakaway try.  thats not good enough.  A FB needs pace

I disagree with that too. Daly would probably be the fastest full back around and I'd have Steward every day of week and twice on Sundays.

Hes probably the form full back in the NH, probably the world.

Steward is 15, end of. Nowell needs replacing but not May. His best days gone I think.
Mako FFS! Why is he there?
LCD discipline not good enough but he was good first half.
The players are good enough available but either wrong combination are picked and or they are just not playing well
Is it all down to Jones? The starting XV had a few question marks but really should have been so much better than they were. Even if England had won there'd still be too many issues with performance.

England looked very rusty against a bang average Argentine side who didn't have to earn but took every soft technical penalty given to them and that was the game. Ref was pretty pedantic and England didn't get many of the 50/50 calls - at times it felt like they were the away side. I really don't like Sunday games.

There were a few flashes of pace and power from both forwards and backs, but not enough. They should be better next week and will need to be.