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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by mountain man Mon 17 Oct 2022, 11:38 am

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 10 Nov 2022, 1:06 pm

nlpnlp wrote:I find some of the ‘hysterical’ reaction to last week’s 1 point thrashing by Argentina quite funny.

Possession Eng 63% v Arg 37%
Metres made Eng 427 v Arg 157
Territory Eng 60% v Arg 40%
Defenders beaten Eng 17 v Arg 6

I appreciate that the object of the game is to score more points than your opponents, but England lost on the bounce of a ball / whether or not there was a fingertip touch of the ball.  The above stats suggest that England did a lot right, but just need to be more clinical in their finishing and give away a few less penalties.

It was boring as hell. Again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 10 Nov 2022, 1:07 pm

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd rather keep Jones than get Gatland.

Ive never been a Gatland fan at all but with the benefit of hindsight its clear he got the best and more out of Wales.

He held them back alot for me. THere were glimpses of what they could have been when they were allowed to play looser chasing games but it was very by the numbers most of the time.

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Post by TJ Thu 10 Nov 2022, 1:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd rather keep Jones than get Gatland.

Ive never been a Gatland fan at all but with the benefit of hindsight its clear he got the best and more out of Wales.

He held them back alot for me. THere were glimpses of what they could have been when they were allowed to play looser chasing games but it was very by the numbers most of the time.

I agree to some extent. Watching Halfpenny kicking back good counterattack ball always made me want to cry. However he got them up the rankings and did well in the 6N. Maybe their potential was higher but given how poor the URC teams were in that time frame he had them playing more than the sum of the parts whereas Jones and Townsend have their respective teams playing less than their potential and less than the sum of their parts

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Post by mountain man Thu 10 Nov 2022, 1:44 pm

Well whoever is next coach and be incredibly suprising if it's before RWC, will hopefully at least pick a better team/squad from available players of those in form and fit. Not on past glories.
Jones teams now are rapidly becoming a laughing stock among fans and media. Does anyone REALLY think Itoje best position is 6 or that Youngs and Mako deserve to be in match day 23?

I could go on but boring even myself now.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 10 Nov 2022, 1:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd rather keep Jones than get Gatland.

He'd be the best coach you ever had Wink.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 10 Nov 2022, 1:59 pm

It would be too greedy of us mikey, please take him back yourselves once Pivac leaves.

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Post by cb Thu 10 Nov 2022, 2:36 pm

I am failing to see the logic with almost all of the changes: -

I thought Cockanisiga played OK last week and without Tuilagi there is no real heavyweight in backs. The question for England and Bath is can they get more out of him.

is Porter really better than Lawrence? Is Porter really an outside centre?

Steward is a very secure fullball why not pair him with the most attaching wings available (love to see Radwan back).

We might beat Japan, because England will be fired up and of course we are playing at home.

Does not give an impression of any master plan,

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 10 Nov 2022, 3:43 pm

cb wrote:
is Porter really better than Lawrence? Is Porter really an outside centre?

Currently Lawrence is the form 13 in the league so I don't think any of us understand his omission.

Porter is a utility back but 13 is his best position and he's more than capable of carrying hard. He's a tough player with better footwork than you assume. I don't have concerns with him ball in hand if he's actually passed to (unlike in the summer with his three runs in two games). In defence he's still adapting to top level rugby so his positioning might be a little bit out, that's where I think he might fall down.

There's a few in the highlights where he just pinballs through, it's almost reminiscent of Hipkiss.

https://youtu.be/yu4xNPN6b1w

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 10 Nov 2022, 5:11 pm

Completely lost with this selection! One of the best and most powerful locks in the world playing at 6. A position he has never excelled at and was VERY poor last week. Not enough quality centres to choose from but that pick is stodgier than my wife's bread pudding.

Nowell is too slow these days, doesn't pinball off players like he used to either. One of the most inform wing/fullbacks in the Premiership came back from short term injury last week and immediately scored two tries. He gets called into the squad and doesn't even make the 23. With JC not playing he is the only largish wing we have and has looked the part. We take a chance on a guy that was once probably the best in the world, but hasn't played much in the last year and only dislocated his elbow 10 days ago.
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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 10 Nov 2022, 5:27 pm

Jones is still trying to use the South African blueprint of 2 locks and a lock in the back row. He's obsessed with it.

Other obsessions are Ben Youngs, Tuilagi actually managing to stay fit, Mako being able to scrummage well and Farrell being able to play at 12 with anyone but his childhood buddy.

I don't understand why the quick and in form wingers haven't been given a chance (Freeman, Radwan) nor Mitchell given a supporting role. We know what Youngs brings. (A whole pile of caca but that's a different debate). Why not give the fringe players a chance to shine?

Rodd, Radwan, Mitchell, Freeman and impact from the bench in Cokanansiga would have been fantastic. And what did Singleton do wrong last week?

It cannot be worse than last week though, surely?

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Post by king_carlos Fri 11 Nov 2022, 12:37 am

Another meh selection. Happy to see Ribbans get a chance, JvP start and May back.

Would very happily see Nowell out for Freeman though and Itoje at 6 makes little sense to me. If sticking with the jumper in the back row I'd prefer Coles at 6, Itoje in the row. I thought Coles was largely good last week.

Very happy that George is back. LCD and him are head and shoulders above the other hookers.

Re Mako. I'd much prefer Marler on the bench but by my knowledge he hasn't been available for family reasons for a while? After Marler the next challenger to Mako would be Rodd though who is IMO a worse scrummager than Mako anyway!

For the majority of the time in the new attacking structure we've lacked pace on the wings. At least May brings that, maybe it sparks something in terms of finishing chances that the possession should be creating. For a while I've said maybe something with click in hope rather than expectation though. I just don't see it. Hopefully I'm proved wrong.

I think the ambitious structure could have worked had more key players stayed fit. The injuries in the backs have laid waste to it though. I'd rather we picked Farrell or Smith at 10 (unpopular but I'd probably go with Faz on his fantastic Sarries form this season) with the other on the bench and altered the game plan.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Nov 2022, 8:11 am

Hard to disagree king. I come back to a basic question I've had. Sod all to do with player x vs player y. Am I looking forward to watching a sport I normally love as a light relief from the tedium of my working week, safe in the knowledge that win or lose I've had fun. Do I have the belief that the coach has even half an eye on the fans entertainment or does he feel that if we win (no matter how) 6 or 7 games next September/October it vindicates everything?
We may win. Because of the nature of Japanese tactics we may see some great rugby; but it's likely to be from 1 source. At the moment I'm sitting here expecting to win, but to win through some mauls, drive over tries, maybe a nice break from a guy like vP, maybe May. Woop de doo Basil.

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Post by Geordie Fri 11 Nov 2022, 10:01 am

Im still really struggling with some of the selections. The big one for me though is Itoje at 6 and Jack Willis dropped after a pathetic 6 mins last weekend.

Im sorry i dont care how good or experienced Jones is supposed to be...thats just bad selections and management.

Itoje isnt a 6...a blind man and his dog can see that....and Jack Willis is a top class flanker who needs a good run in the England side to see what he can do at this level.

Theres other selections similar that sadly actually make me look forward to the end of his reign now and hopefully bring in a coach whos a bit more clear in what theyre doing and actually pick the quality form players in their right positions..or near enough.


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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 11 Nov 2022, 10:07 am

I am surprised by no one touting Middleton as a possible at least stand in coach. He has got the Roses playing at a level that is superior to most if not any other side.

If he can do it with the Ladies, why not the men?

He wouldn't play Itoje at 6 for instance, or a chalk and cheese scenario of Smith and Farrell, therefore he must be better than Jones at least.
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Post by mountain man Fri 11 Nov 2022, 10:11 am

Agree with Geordie on Itoje and Willis, no sense whatsoever by Jones.
As for Middleton, this is something I suggested a week or so back. If Red Roses win RWC then he might be tempted for a new challenge and coach of mens team could be it.
I'd be very surprised if he's not on RFU radar for job or at least a defence coach if not head coach.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Nov 2022, 10:24 am

And bring Deacon please.

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 11 Nov 2022, 10:42 am

The RFU won't let Jones go at this point, if only because it would cost them to pay him off. For better or worse he's there until 2023.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Nov 2022, 10:54 am

Lose against Japan and I think he's done. There's literally a couple of media men still supporting him at present.

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Post by Oakdene Fri 11 Nov 2022, 11:11 am

mountain man wrote:Agree with Geordie on Itoje and Willis, no sense whatsoever by Jones.
As for Middleton, this is something I suggested a week or so back. If Red Roses win RWC then he might be tempted for a new challenge and coach of mens team could be it.
I'd be very surprised if he's not on RFU radar for job or at least a defence coach if not head coach.

Wouldn't mind him in for Pivac really.

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Post by cb Fri 11 Nov 2022, 2:46 pm

Assessment of the selection

Steward: In his correct position, gives England security under high ball.
Nowell: Not really a form winger, lacks a bit of pace (like to see Radwan given another go, Arundell when fit, other options as well).
Porter: Not really the form outside center (see Lawrence, etc.)
Farrell: OK choice but can Smith/Farrell work together.  Farrell also top quality FH.
May: Just back from injury, little form (Cockanisiga goodish last week, and there is a lack of heavy weights amongst the backs).
Smith: Good player but can he bring his club form to England.
JVP: Just looks international class
Simmonds: Odd choice in that he was left out by Jones when in better form for Exeter.  Is Dombrandt fit yet? When does Mercer return.
Curry: Good player, quiet last week.  Can Jones just let him be a world class OS.
Itoje: World class lock, out of position (Coles did not play badly last week either).
Hill: A lock playing lock.
Ribbans: Hope he comes good (is Chessum injured?).
Genge: Becoming world class, can he play 80 minutes (or even 70).
LCD: Must stop giving away stupid penalties but he and George are miles ahead of the rest.
Sinckler: Good performance last week, he and Genge played well.

A number of players with little recent form or not really first choice in their positions (JVP I exclude).  Hope they all come good and have blinders but not all X-factor players at the moment.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 11 Nov 2022, 3:26 pm

cb wrote: (is Chessum injured?).

Yes. Returned from England training camp in a protective boot. No news given from Tigers (standard). Hopefully he's back again soon.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 11 Nov 2022, 3:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hard to disagree king. I come back to a basic question I've had. Sod all to do with player x vs player y. Am I looking forward to watching a sport I normally love as a light relief from the tedium of my working week, safe in the knowledge that win or lose I've had fun. Do I have the belief that the coach has even half an eye on the fans entertainment or does he feel that if we win (no matter how) 6 or 7 games next September/October it vindicates everything?
We may win. Because of the nature of Japanese tactics we may see some great rugby; but it's likely to be from 1 source. At the moment I'm sitting here expecting to win, but to win through some mauls, drive over tries, maybe a nice break from a guy like vP, maybe May. Woop de doo Basil.
Probably an agree to disagree case but my view for a long time re attacking/defensive tactics is they only really come up from a sides own fans when their team is losing or opposition fans when another team is winning.

England are playing stuttering pish but if they suddenly win a Six Nations (feels unlikely but this is a hypothetical...) with it then I doubt many England fans will be complaining.

Likewise if a team fans don't support play forward based, defensive rugby but lose nobody is particularly bothered. If they start winning then suddenly rugby is dying - see the Boks when trampling over teams with two world class tight fives.

Gatland's Wales are a perfect example of all sides of that. When Gat-ball was winning many 'neutral' fans were quick to point out it not being flashy. When it was losing nobody was really bothered. When it was winning Welsh fans largely hailed Gatland as the second coming. When it was losing he was single-handedly ruining Barry John's game of beauty and grace.

I had a funny chat after England lost to Scotland at Twickenham involving this. A good friend who coached me after he retired from playing rugby at a very high level in Scotland pre-professionalism was talking about how Scotland's Finn led attacking play had conquered England's horrid game plan that could only score tries through kick chase. A great Scottish player (and B&I Lion) who played at the club around a similar time pre-professionalism leaned in and politely pointed out Scotland had scored one try in the win as a result of kick chase.

Fans like to win and don't like to lose.

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Post by nlpnlp Fri 11 Nov 2022, 11:50 pm

I know this is a discussion site, but I hope people are joking when they are touting for Simon Middleton to be made England men’s coach – otherwise they are seriously deluded.

Likewise, I would question whether people saying Itoje was VERY poor last week either watched the game or know anything about rugby. He performed adequately, but not great. People need to accept that players will not be great every game and if they aren’t then they shouldn’t necessarily be dropped. Posters have called for Coles, Hill, Curry, B Vunipola, M Vunipola, Youngs, Smith, Farrell, Manu, Nowell, Slade and Cokanasiga all to be dropped because they were ‘poor’ or ‘quiet’. You can’t play a team sport dropping more than half your team every week.

And if Jack Willis is the messiah that some people think he is, why has no club picked him up after the demise of Wasps? A decent player, but as yet unproved at International level.

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Post by Sharkey06 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 12:02 am

Ouch, someone is a bit grouchy. As Michael Winner would have said 'Calm down dear it's only a discussion site!'.

Let's see how it goes tomorrow. Japan lost to New Zealand 31 - 38 a couple of weeks ago, so are clearly no mugs and if England can win by more than a clear score then hopefully we can give them a break. But if not then, I think we will go 0 -4 in the Autumns and Eddie's position will be very perilous.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 8:34 am

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hard to disagree king. I come back to a basic question I've had. Sod all to do with player x vs player y. Am I looking forward to watching a sport I normally love as a light relief from the tedium of my working week, safe in the knowledge that win or lose I've had fun. Do I have the belief that the coach has even half an eye on the fans entertainment or does he feel that if we win (no matter how) 6 or 7 games next September/October it vindicates everything?
We may win. Because of the nature of Japanese tactics we may see some great rugby; but it's likely to be from 1 source. At the moment I'm sitting here expecting to win, but to win through some mauls, drive over tries, maybe a nice break from a guy like vP, maybe May. Woop de doo Basil.
Probably an agree to disagree case but my view for a long time re attacking/defensive tactics is they only really come up from a sides own fans when their team is losing or opposition fans when another team is winning.

England are playing stuttering pish but if they suddenly win a Six Nations (feels unlikely but this is a hypothetical...) with it then I doubt many England fans will be complaining.

Likewise if a team fans don't support play forward based, defensive rugby but lose nobody is particularly bothered. If they start winning then suddenly rugby is dying - see the Boks when trampling over teams with two world class tight fives.

Gatland's Wales are a perfect example of all sides of that. When Gat-ball was winning many 'neutral' fans were quick to point out it not being flashy. When it was losing nobody was really bothered. When it was winning Welsh fans largely hailed Gatland as the second coming. When it was losing he was single-handedly ruining Barry John's game of beauty and grace.

I had a funny chat after England lost to Scotland at Twickenham involving this. A good friend who coached me after he retired from playing rugby at a very high level in Scotland pre-professionalism was talking about how Scotland's Finn led attacking play had conquered England's horrid game plan that could only score tries through kick chase. A great Scottish player (and B&I Lion) who played at the club around a similar time pre-professionalism leaned in and politely pointed out Scotland had scored one try in the win as a result of kick chase.

Fans like to win and don't like to lose.

Fortunately you can go back to 2020 and see me complaining about being bored tho. I gave them some leeway initially covid etc but it's 3 years nearly down the line and it's still boring!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 8:35 am

nlpnlp wrote:I know this is a discussion site, but I hope people are joking when they are touting for Simon Middleton to be made England men’s coach – otherwise they are seriously deluded.

Likewise, I would question whether people saying Itoje was VERY poor last week either watched the game or know anything about rugby.  He performed adequately, but not great.  People need to accept that players will not be great every game and if they aren’t then they shouldn’t necessarily be dropped.  Posters have called for Coles, Hill, Curry, B Vunipola, M Vunipola, Youngs, Smith, Farrell, Manu, Nowell, Slade and Cokanasiga all to be dropped because they were ‘poor’ or ‘quiet’.  You can’t play a team sport dropping more than half your team every week.

And if Jack Willis is the messiah that some people think he is, why has no club picked him up after the demise of Wasps?  A decent player, but as yet unproved at International level.

Lol. Ever think that Willis unlike the others has been in the England squad for 1 and is unlikely just having to mull over the 1 offer? Barbeary only got picked up yesterday but poorer players more quickly.

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Post by mountain man Sat 12 Nov 2022, 8:52 am

Could Middleton do a worse job than Jones? Hmmm no. Will he be next England head coach, unlikely but I'd be surprised if he's not in conversation for defence coach.
As for dropping players, Youngs and Mako are just not up to it. Mako cannot scrum strongly enough - the bread and butter for a prop and his carrying isn't enough to justify his place. Youngs ffs, it's not like there aren't WAY better alternatives.
I'd drop Curry to bench for this game, he was poor and hasn't been player he can be for a while. Itoje is a 2nd row.
Nowell? Not quick enough for Int wing.

So, some of us may be deluded but I think we maybe have a decent point or two.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 12 Nov 2022, 9:01 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:I know this is a discussion site, but I hope people are joking when they are touting for Simon Middleton to be made England men’s coach – otherwise they are seriously deluded.

Likewise, I would question whether people saying Itoje was VERY poor last week either watched the game or know anything about rugby.  He performed adequately, but not great.  People need to accept that players will not be great every game and if they aren’t then they shouldn’t necessarily be dropped.  Posters have called for Coles, Hill, Curry, B Vunipola, M Vunipola, Youngs, Smith, Farrell, Manu, Nowell, Slade and Cokanasiga all to be dropped because they were ‘poor’ or ‘quiet’.  You can’t play a team sport dropping more than half your team every week.

And if Jack Willis is the messiah that some people think he is, why has no club picked him up after the demise of Wasps?  A decent player, but as yet unproved at International level.

Lol. Ever think that Willis unlike the others has been in the England squad for 1 and is unlikely just having to mull over the 1 offer? Barbeary only got picked up yesterday but poorer players more quickly.

Financially poorer players move more quickly.

Willis pocketing a £20k appearance fee for his three mins off the bench last weekend will have eased any financial concerns he has pretty quickly. Any team trying to squeeze him under the cap are as you say likely to wait until after the international period and when players like Launchbury are rumoured to have been offered £60k to the end of the season by a Prem side then Willis is better off concentrating on the internationals as he'll earn more than that for playing these four games.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 2:51 pm

Turned on the game to hear Flatman say that Japan's back row plays with a steroidal tempo?! Is this a phrase that holds a meaning that I haven't heard of that's better than the one I think it means?

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:04 pm

Nowell out, big Joe starts at 14.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:10 pm

Better team. Who had Nowell ahead of Tuilagi in the sweepstake?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:25 pm

Well he may be slower but that May chase is a notable difference from last week.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:27 pm

Genge starts where he left off last week.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:28 pm

Nice try. That maul looks a little better setup from last week but it's not exactly driving forward yet.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:34 pm

Going to be a long day for Japan unless Koo manages to figure something out.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:42 pm

9 times out of 10 you'll get away with that pass off the floor by Cokanasiga but strictly that should be a pen as I can't say that's immediate.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:49 pm

Fluffed that lineout. I'm still not seeing how this 3rd lock really helps us too much.

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Post by Geordie Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:49 pm

Porter looks lost

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:52 pm

He does a bit. That's got to be yellow to May as well.

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Post by Geordie Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:52 pm

Smith looks lost aswell

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Post by Heaf Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:54 pm

That's another daft kicking the ball away when in attack

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:55 pm

Geordie wrote:Smith looks lost aswell

Hes had a couple of bad moments. The kick and pass were bad. Balancing the assist and try.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:58 pm

Scrums looked good. LCD s throwing hasn't been great
Couple high now.

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Post by Heaf Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:59 pm

Daft pen by Itoje

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 12 Nov 2022, 3:59 pm

I think Japan have been shooting themselves in the foot by opting to go for goal. Both occasions should have been tap n go. Now England have gone out of sight.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 12 Nov 2022, 4:11 pm

Not much atmosphere at the ground again.

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Post by Heaf Sat 12 Nov 2022, 4:15 pm

Interesting point made at half-time ... YC for not releasing the tackled player when the player actually got the ball away maybe seems harsh ...

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Post by Heaf Sat 12 Nov 2022, 4:17 pm

Line-out is shocking

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Nov 2022, 4:17 pm

3rd one. Each one to Ribbans but all 3 looked high.

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Post by Heaf Sat 12 Nov 2022, 4:21 pm

Might have got away with a forward pass there

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