England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

I would have Freeman in on the right wing, he can do the same as Cokanasiga, but at pace and he can catch, he is a very good kick chaser. Agree with Lawrence in at 13, he has the pace and the power to cause the sort of trouble Manu used to.

Watching Saracens Northampton and how Ben Earl not in England squad is a travesty. He's been sensational.

Too much choice mountain.

Willis Dombrandt and Earl in back row would be match for any in world rugby

Throw out Earl for curry and I'd nod along. Then whack mercer on the bench.

mountain man wrote:Willis Dombrandt and Earl in back row would be match for any in world rugby

Yeah but which one is doing the tough hard yards carrying? None of them so that for their club unless that's Tom Willis in there and not Jack. All three you've selected are really good players but I don't see the right balance there, needs a selfless work horse.

Dombrandt carries for Quins.

mountain man wrote:Dombrandt carries for Quins.

Yes, but I’m repeatedly told that Dombrandt carries in the wide channels and doesn’t make the hard yards that Billy does.

Which is only partially true, because Dombrandt does a decent amount of carrying close to the breakdown but usually does it by picking smart lines that make it look a lot easier than it is. However, whenever he’s played for England he seems to have been used primarily as a breakdown specialist and has hardly done any carrying, which to my mind is a bit like buying an off-road vehicle and only driving it in Chelsea. It’s a valid use for it but it’s only using half its capabilities.

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:Dombrandt carries for Quins.

Yes, but I’m repeatedly told that Dombrandt carries in the wide channels and doesn’t make the hard yards that Billy does.

Which is only partially true, because Dombrandt does a decent amount of carrying close to the breakdown but usually does it by picking smart lines that make it look a lot easier than it is. However, whenever he’s played for England he seems to have been used primarily as a breakdown specialist and has hardly done any carrying, which to my mind is a bit like buying an off-road vehicle and only driving it in Chelsea. It’s a valid use for it but it’s only using half its capabilities.

This. Dombrandt carries one out and often coming back on a hard line for Smith. Eddie wants someone to smash it up as an alternative to Genge and Sinckler. Billy V tends to do this well even in his somewhat inconsistent form.

Dombrandt's best form tends to be with one of Lawday or Chisholm at 6 doing the dog work in the tight. They do the grind to free him up to do what he does best.

Ted Hill or George Martin would be good alternatives to Lawes and would allow Dombrandt at 8 with the freedom to do what he does best in an England shirt though I'm not convinced we've really seen him fully acclimatised to international rugby. Could still come when he gets ankther chance.

Jack Willis is a better carrier than Lawes though. We'd miss nothing from that perspective.

I guess it's the normal Monday refresh of the squad? Wonder if Jones will be thinking of Lawrence and t Hill in training and just seeing what they can do? Not heard about Arundell but he was supposed to be fit around now.

Slades getting a lot for his cameo at 15 too. Think he knocked on twice again though. I'm intrigued to see how we line up at 9 13 and 14 this week.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jack Willis is a better carrier than Lawes though. We'd miss nothing from that perspective.

If he? Especially in the tight, Lawes is a pretty physical option to have. Nothing flashy but effective. I like Jack Willis but the early hope he might end up as a viable option at 8 hasn't really materialised.

I'd like to see England at least trial dual opensides again though, a Curry and Willis combination on the flank is worth a look especially against New Zealand who are susceptible at the breakdown.

And now for something completely different, the RFU just indicated the next head coach doesn't need to be English after all and Ronan O'Gara and Scott Robertson are both saying they would be interested. Both popular names, but are we sure???

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jack Willis is a better carrier than Lawes though. We'd miss nothing from that perspective.

If he? Especially in the tight, Lawes is a pretty physical option to have. Nothing flashy but effective. I like Jack Willis but the early hope he might end up as a viable option at 8 hasn't really materialised.

I'd like to see England at least trial dual opensides again though, a Curry and Willis combination on the flank is worth a look especially against New Zealand who are susceptible at the breakdown.

Lawes is big but has never carried like it. Not sure I ever saw Jack Willis as an 8 option. He covered there a couple of times but was always a flanker.

doctor_grey wrote:And now for something completely different, the RFU just indicated the next head coach doesn't need to be English after all and Ronan O'Gara and Scott Robertson are both saying they would be interested.  Both popular names, but are we sure???

That is a great turnaround. Yes particular the latter. And McCall.

Lawes is a better carrier than Willis by quite a distance for me, he's actually pretty handy in that regard. Willis doesn't offer too much in carrying terms for me.

If the coach doesn't need to be English.....has to be McCall. The one true outstanding candidate.

mountain man wrote:Watching Saracens Northampton and how Ben Earl not in England squad is a travesty. He's been sensational.

I'd have Earl from the bench, he's the perfect option. I'd drop Simmonds and Willis.....have a straight fight out between Dombrandt and Billy for 8 and Lawes, Curry, Underhill and Earl making up the flanker options.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jack Willis is a better carrier than Lawes though. We'd miss nothing from that perspective.

If he? Especially in the tight, Lawes is a pretty physical option to have. Nothing flashy but effective. I like Jack Willis but the early hope he might end up as a viable option at 8 hasn't really materialised.

I'd like to see England at least trial dual opensides again though, a Curry and Willis combination on the flank is worth a look especially against New Zealand who are susceptible at the breakdown.

Lawes is big but has never carried like it. Not sure I ever saw Jack Willis as an 8 option. He covered there a couple of times but was always a flanker.

There has been hope amongst some that a Cunderhillis combination would emerge if Jack could carry hard enough and then give us a devastating breakdown presence across the backrow.

Didn't see it myself. I am surprised so many here don't think he's a very strong carrier though and that Lawes is better. The latter always goes in too upright for me, potentially why he's being moved wider? The amount of tries and supports Willis does to the try line epitomises him for me. Hey ho, he's never getting picked under Jones and Proudfoot.

Ok ill bang the drum again...If we're going for a bigger unit at 6, why Ted HIll is not in there just dumbfounds me. 6'5, real physicality, very strong lineout option, good pace, captain and leader...playing great stuff for Bath.

And ill not start on Lawrence not being included...

So some agreement amongst us all then. Jones definitely not picking players who should be in 23 at least.
A few names to consider : Lawrence, Earl, Hill, Radwan, McGuigan, Joseph. And those who were favourites of Jones but now no longer but actually in better form : Malins(got a knock though yesterday, hamstring?) Daly.

As for coach, interesting that. I assumed RFU still wanted Englishman but if not that opens up more possibilities. O'Gara interesting choice.

Ah forget about Radwan...two screaming tries two weeks on the trot...hes just a showboater...ill keep him at the falcons thanks.

I bet you can pick a hell of an England Saxons team from players not in this squad who should be..

mountain man wrote:So some agreement amongst us all then. Jones definitely not picking players who should be in 23 at least.
A few names to consider : Lawrence, Earl, Hill, Radwan, McGuigan, Joseph. And those who were favourites of Jones but now no longer but actually in better form : Malins(got a knock though yesterday, hamstring?) Daly.

There's only 23 in the squad though, so somebody would need to drop out.

If say Lawrence comes in....who drops out? Slade?

Hill comes in....who goes?

McGuigan shouldn't be in the conversation for England and I say that as a Falcons fan, he's not good enough.

It's a wider squad generally sarge from Monday to Wed and then a cut. Malins is def out as he pulled up with a hamstring injury. Arundell should be there or there abouts. Only saw up to the uncontested scrums in the Saracens game but saw Daly barely lay a glove for a try. Porter got better as the game went on, but he fell off a few tackles and knocked on, I'd imagine he may be under a little pressure, though he last the whole game / well into the second half; there was a moment I thought he was going to get Burrelled.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:So some agreement amongst us all then. Jones definitely not picking players who should be in 23 at least.
A few names to consider : Lawrence, Earl, Hill, Radwan, McGuigan, Joseph. And those who were favourites of Jones but now no longer but actually in better form : Malins(got a knock though yesterday, hamstring?) Daly.

There's only 23 in the squad though, so somebody would need to drop out.

If say Lawrence comes in....who drops out? Slade?

Hill comes in....who goes?

McGuigan shouldn't be in the conversation for England and I say that as a Falcons fan, he's not good enough.

Why not? Where is he lacking?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:So some agreement amongst us all then. Jones definitely not picking players who should be in 23 at least.
A few names to consider : Lawrence, Earl, Hill, Radwan, McGuigan, Joseph. And those who were favourites of Jones but now no longer but actually in better form : Malins(got a knock though yesterday, hamstring?) Daly.

There's only 23 in the squad though, so somebody would need to drop out.

If say Lawrence comes in....who drops out? Slade?

Hill comes in....who goes?

McGuigan shouldn't be in the conversation for England and I say that as a Falcons fan, he's not good enough.

I'm not advocating all those btw, just names that regularly get mentioned here. I would swop Slade for Lawrence though. Don't think Slade has done enough for England over his time. Great player at times but last say 10 games for Eng not good enough.
McGuigan definitely good enough for England but George for me first choice and LCD is good but too many errors.

Geordie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:So some agreement amongst us all then. Jones definitely not picking players who should be in 23 at least.
A few names to consider : Lawrence, Earl, Hill, Radwan, McGuigan, Joseph. And those who were favourites of Jones but now no longer but actually in better form : Malins(got a knock though yesterday, hamstring?) Daly.

There's only 23 in the squad though, so somebody would need to drop out.

If say Lawrence comes in....who drops out? Slade?

Hill comes in....who goes?

McGuigan shouldn't be in the conversation for England and I say that as a Falcons fan, he's not good enough.

Why not? Where is he lacking?

Mainly size and physicality which lead onto others issues potentially in the scrum, contact....carrying, defence etc.

He's a tidy player and has some nice skills outside the tight, but he's just too small.

Not to pick on you too much sarge, because I think a certain amount of heft is obviously valuable in the front row but McGuigan doesn't exactly come up short in the size department. Yes, yes all things rugby related are exaggerated or played down etc but going on what's available, McGuigan is 1.94 m tall weighing 110kg, LCD 1.83 and 111 and George 1.78 and 109.

Keep reading similar issues on the BBC with Mercer's size where he's roughly the same as Savea, bit bigger than Wiese etc. Surely it's more down to technique and attitude?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:So some agreement amongst us all then. Jones definitely not picking players who should be in 23 at least.
A few names to consider : Lawrence, Earl, Hill, Radwan, McGuigan, Joseph. And those who were favourites of Jones but now no longer but actually in better form : Malins(got a knock though yesterday, hamstring?) Daly.

There's only 23 in the squad though, so somebody would need to drop out.

If say Lawrence comes in....who drops out? Slade?

Hill comes in....who goes?

McGuigan shouldn't be in the conversation for England and I say that as a Falcons fan, he's not good enough.

Why not? Where is he lacking?

Mainly size and physicality which lead onto others issues potentially in the scrum, contact....carrying, defence etc.

He's a tidy player and has some nice skills outside the tight, but he's just too small.  

i dont get that Sarge? Hes no smaller than Jamie George etc?

I think the issue with McGuigan is his age. Hes the same age as George and LCD and Jones wants his 3rd option as a younger guy.
Hes looked at Blamire but thats fell flat on its face and probably the options coming through arent quite what he wants.

Id have Jamie George Miles ahead of everyone...probably top 3 in the world for me in that position (ill probably get stick for that comment) i just think he a class act.

LCD...meh hes powerful but not sure that power is a point of difference over McGugians ability.

i dont get that Sarge? Hes no smaller than Jamie George etc?

McGuigan's stats are rubbish.....Jamie George is a much bigger guy, I'm talking 15-20kg, I'm sensing that somebody is telling porkies.

Tigers had him as 175cm and 95kg.....yet he magically grew to 183cm with us and put on 18kg! Standing relatively close to all 3 over the years, the England 2 are units.....McGuigan is not. On top of this, he's not dominant in the tackle at all.....and rumours he's a weak scrummager. He's a good little hooker in the Prem and pops up where it counts to bag a lot of tries....but am International hooker he isn't for me.

Blamire on the other hand is a real physical presence and has all the raw attributes to become a much better player at the top level. I can see why Eddie took interest him, he just needs to tighten up his basics.

Anyway. It's somewhat pointless arguing/debating who should be in or not as Jones ain't going to be picking them!
I'm as bad as always saying this or that player should be picked but ultimately pointless.

It's always easy saying x,y,z should be involved, but sometimes a little more difficult when you have to take somebody out to accommodate them.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's always easy saying x,y,z should be involved, but sometimes a little more difficult when you have to take somebody out to accommodate them.

True but I'd have Lawrence in for either Slade or Manu - yes sacriledge but he's not player he was. I'd have Earl for Billy. I'd have Radwan for Nowell, if Arundell not available. Mcguigan for LCD. Mitchell for Youngs. Just about any prop for Mako these days.

These changes don't need to be for ever, just these AIs to see how they go. Stticking with same old players when it's not really working is not recipe for RWC success.

mountain man wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's always easy saying x,y,z should be involved, but sometimes a little more difficult when you have to take somebody out to accommodate them.

True but I'd have Lawrence in for either Slade or Manu - yes sacriledge but he's not player he was. I'd have Earl for Billy. I'd have Radwan for Nowell, if Arundell not available. Mcguigan for LCD. Mitchell for Youngs. Just about any prop for Mako these days.

These changes don't need to be for ever, just these AIs to see how they go. Stticking with same old players when it's not really working is not recipe for RWC success.

Its not sacriledge...hes past it and never done it in years. Time to move on.

Time to move on many, some now...some post WC...
Nowell
Youngs
Ewells - Hopefully already done
Billy V
Mako V
Watson - So injury prone - Start fresh with one of the abundance of top young wingers...like Loader.
May - Been a class act, at his best, he was the best winger in the world...but now...see above for Watson

Others who must be decided upon post WC...
Farrell - Need to move away from him at centre
Lawes - Can he still do it
Itoje - Big call i know but if the bigger young kids are playing out of their skin, like Ollie Chessum who is much bigger yet just as mobile as Maro...Maro may not be 1st choice any more.
Size DOES matter at lock

Lots of changes potential over the next year.

Did anyone see Eddie’s interview at the end of the game on Saturday?

He mentioned something about Ribbans/Coles being 6th and 7th choice locks with Chessum/Ewels etc missing. Not so good for the future if he genuinely thinks that about Ewels in particular

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's always easy saying x,y,z should be involved, but sometimes a little more difficult when you have to take somebody out to accommodate them.

True but I'd have Lawrence in for either Slade or Manu - yes sacriledge but he's not player he was. I'd have Earl for Billy. I'd have Radwan for Nowell, if Arundell not available. Mcguigan for LCD. Mitchell for Youngs. Just about any prop for Mako these days.

These changes don't need to be for ever, just these AIs to see how they go. Stticking with same old players when it's not really working is not recipe for RWC success.

Its not sacriledge...hes past it and never done it in years. Time to move on.

Time to move on many, some now...some post WC...
Nowell  
Youngs
Ewells - Hopefully already done
Billy V
Mako V
Watson - So injury prone - Start fresh with one of the abundance of top young wingers...like Loader.
May - Been a class act, at his best, he was the best winger in the world...but now...see above for Watson

Others who must be decided upon post WC...
Farrell - Need to move away from him at centre
Lawes - Can he still do it
Itoje - Big call i know but if the bigger young kids are playing out of their skin, like Ollie Chessum who is much bigger yet just as mobile as Maro...Maro may not be 1st choice any more.
Size DOES matter at lock

Lots of changes potential over the next year.

Fine if there's a lock better than Itoje to replace him. As it is there is no one around in his class.

Absolutely...but I did say IF the kids are performing...which by 2023 / 24 could very well be happening.

Ha, fair enough point, but thats the same for everyone. Can't think that Itoje is going to fall away that much, and he's at such a level that there's no one anywhere near him. 1 injury can of course change everything. He'll be what 30 ish by then, should have a few years left.

Coles
LCD
Curry
Genge
George
Heyes
Hill
Itoje
Ribbans
Robinson
Rodd
Simmonds
SInckler
Singleton
Stuart
Tizard
Vunipola x2
Willis

Cokanasiga
Farrell
Freeman
Furbank
W Joseph
May
Mitchell
Murley
Nowell
Porter
Radwan
Slade
Smith
Steward
Tuilagi
van Poortvliet
Youngs

So Stuart in seems the only change, don't think he made the previous wider squads.

So....

1 Genge
2 LCD / George
3 Sinkler
4 Hill
5 Coles
6 Itoje
7 Curry
8 Billy V

9 Youngs
10 Smith
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Manu
14 Coka
15 Steward.

Assume you're going for a guess at Jones' team rather than your wish? I can see Jones picking that but swapping Nowell in for Big Joe.

Itoje at 6 v NZ? Youngs at 9?

From that squad I'd have

Genge
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Coles
Willis
Billy
Curry
JvP
Farrell
May
Manu
Slade
Joe C
Steward

Smith, Radwan, Mitchell, LCD, Stuart, Rodd, Hill, Simmonds

That's my first off top of head. Might well change 15/23 after a longer think.

Watched the Bath match on Friday night, both teams were playing big, tall English blind-sides (Hill and Martin), and both played well.  Hill MOTM.

Plus there are one or two others around who could work.  I am sure I see the sense in Itoje at 6 UNLESS he is not longer able to perform at lock (no obvious signs).

Watson also had a good game with Lawrence.

I'd have Coles further down the pecking order from what I've seen of him, he looks quite average.

Itoje at 6 wasn't great v Arg, didn't matter v Japan but against NZ who have arguably one of best back rows in game just daft.

But to be honest, feck it. My hoping Jones picks will select the players I'd want is futile. He's a way better coach than me as well but that's another story.
I just hope whoever succeeds him be a bit more open minded in his selection policy.

It's unsurprising we never really find out until much later what goes on (if ever) in selection but I wish we did. Understanding why some players get a training camp and are then dropped to the ones that get hauled off at half time and then the ones who seemingly don't excel and get an extended run. Lawrence in his chance didn't really do much wrong, was it 2 touches of the ball on debut? Remember him picking up a loose pass of his laces and keeping the ball but no real chance to run with it. Then there's Slade who has always looked decent defensively but flatters to deceive for me. Knocks on 3 times so far in 2 games and is still heavily involved.

Yep, couple that with Genge and Sinckler substituted against Arg when they were best players for Eng and given stop/start nature of game couldn't been knackered.
I agree on Slade, sometimes seems as a bit of a luxury player. Looks good, some lovely touches and kicks but not enough graft.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Assume you're going for a guess at Jones' team rather than your wish? I can see Jones picking that but swapping Nowell in for Big Joe.

Yes, my wish list would include players not in the squad.