England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

Ditto. I do hope that NZ turn up this week in a similar frame of mind to last (bar the first 10 mins). Plenty of errors, loads of pens but alas it will be a very different team picked. If Jones goes back to Youngs I don't know what I'll think, perhaps just confirms he's got pics of him in a compromising position!

Fascinating match England v NZ. NZ have shown more form I suppose but its in Twickenham and England might have a big performance in them, even bigger than v Japan. Hard one to call but on form I guess NZ.

cb wrote:Watched the Bath match on Friday night, both teams were playing big, tall English blind-sides (Hill and Martin), and both played well.  Hill MOTM.

They both put some monster hits in as well. Lawrence tried to go hard through the midfield a couple of times and went backwards from Martin tackles and Hill made a really good hit on Wells that probably saved a try as pressure was mounting and Bath were on their own try line and struggling. Hill showed good pace for his try and Martin stepped one of the Bath backs for a carry.

Not sure why they're both out of favour with Eddie but might be back in favour come the 6N if they keep playing like that.

If they were back in could mean Coles gets more game time at lock where he cut some nice lines in attack Vs Argentina once he'd got over his jitters/errors at the start of the game.

Think Coles was more flashy in terms of running lines as you say Sam but I liked what I saw from Ribbans. His issue is going to be that the lineouts went awry while he was on (and disappeared once he'd left....along with LCD). Is it me or has LCD started to become erratic again? Some borderline tackles, looks too eager?

LCD gets a bit over excited, gives away stupid pens. Maybe over eager to impress but it's having opposite effect. Can't say Ribbans did a lot for me, I thought Coles was better against Arg bar one bad drop at restart. Tizzard was good on Sunday for Sarries.
As for Eng v NZ, I think NZ will have too much. England inconsistent selection, no settled side or tactics doesn't help. NZ been using lot of squad but they always slot in well.
Cannot take too much from Japan game on Saturday as Japan were poor really.
If we get Youngs 9, Itoje 6, Nowell on wing and Mako on bench it's literally game up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think Coles was more flashy in terms of running lines as you say Sam but I liked what I saw from Ribbans. His issue is going to be that the lineouts went awry while he was on (and disappeared once he'd left....along with LCD). Is it me or has LCD started to become erratic again? Some borderline tackles, looks too eager?

Ribbans is a big bloke who'll help anchor the scrum but there's not much variation in his and Hill's game. You'd have one of the two in the squad for the extra bulk when required. Thinking ahead to the 6N I'd quite like to see an Itoje and Chessum combination with Coles coming off the bench with those running lines against a tired defence.

Not sure whether it would be quite enough bulk at scrum time though bar Ireland in the 6N where we didn't have a particularly big second row combination when has scrum dominance really helped us in recent times? The England scrum doesn't make that big a difference though at international level it doesn't tend to as there's normally less mistakes and so less scrums.

So much of my optimism in terms of result against N is going to come (or go) when the teams are announced. At the moment I am expecting Itoje and Youngs to start and I think that'll be a mistake. I know that Scotland played against a slightly A/B team but when they were on top they were playing with speed on their own ball and slowing NZ down mightily; I realise that isn't exactly a shock to anyone! 6 and 9 are going to be important in that. I think Jones will see Youngs kicking (which wasn't good vs Argentina, and hasn't been for England for a while) and secure set piece (again not exactly great this autumn with our 3 locks) as key. That first point is also a hread scratcher for me as despite me hating the tactics I get why you'd pick players which you think suit it....but then he picks Nowell.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think Coles was more flashy in terms of running lines as you say Sam but I liked what I saw from Ribbans. His issue is going to be that the lineouts went awry while he was on (and disappeared once he'd left....along with LCD). Is it me or has LCD started to become erratic again? Some borderline tackles, looks too eager?

Ribbans is a big bloke who'll help anchor the scrum but there's not much variation in his and Hill's game. You'd have one of the two in the squad for the extra bulk when required. Thinking ahead to the 6N I'd quite like to see an Itoje and Chessum combination with Coles coming off the bench with those running lines against a tired defence.

Not sure whether it would be quite enough bulk at scrum time though bar Ireland in the 6N where we didn't have a particularly big second row combination when has scrum dominance really helped us in recent times? The England scrum doesn't make that big a difference though at international level it doesn't tend to as there's normally less mistakes and so less scrums.

Chessum was showing up well.

Scrum looks good, then Vunipola comes on.

Raynal is our new ref for this one, Berry has had to go home due to family reasons.

formerly known as Sam wrote:The England scrum doesn't make that big a difference though at international level it doesn't tend to as there's normally less mistakes and so less scrums.

A vital and often overlooked point. In the RWC final England have 4 scrum put ins, won the ball 3 times and won 1 penalty. The Boks had 11 put ins, won 4 penalties. Basically each side won all their own put ins and a penalty every 3 scrums on their own ball.

Very few sides consistently win penalties against the head in scrums now. Even the Boks with Malherbe at TH (probably the most destructive scrummager around now) tend to their damage on their own put ins. The vast majority of the time that people point to the scrum as an issue the overlying and more important issues tends to be the error count leading to those scrums. England's error count has been far too high for a while now.

That said I'd be delighted if Marler came back into the fold so Mako could drop back to third choice. Marler's defensive work is fantastic and complements the other front rows well. Despite being a weaker scrummager than Genge and Marler Mako would still be my third choice as well. I like Rodd for his breakdown work but frankly think he is a weaker scrummager than Mako. I wouldn't say Rapava-Ruskin is a standout scrummager either.

Joe Heyes has disappointed me a bit with his opportunities. His Tigers form last season was fantastic and he's young enough to keep developing but he hasn't shown his best so far. Stuart over the summer showed more and should come back onto the bench when fit.

Heyes dropped. Mitchell dropped.

Willis stays in but now he's off to Toulouse will be interesting to see if Jones picks him for the 6 ns.

Joe C out with ankle injury. Nowell back in.

Heyes has been a bit of a disappointment, I was expecting him to be a better scrum option than Sinks tbh. Won't do him any harm going back down to 3rd choice (Stewart seems to have turned a corner this last year), he's still a young lad.

I don't know what Mitchell has to do to get a game, other than ask Youngs for a copy of the photos.

What's betting nigh on same 15/23 with Nowell in for Joe C.
It's not just me and a few others here, every forum and article I've read from ex players, even current players and us the great unwashed supporters are all saying same thing. Cannot understand how form players in Gallagher Prem not getting a look in yet same old faces picked regardless.
What I'd love to see is a reporter interviewing Jones and straight up asking a couple of questions along lines of why are you picking same players who aren't performing yet ignoring others.

Just skipping over New Zealand (as apparently they're there for the taking...) but for the South Africa match, which of their players won't be available? Japanese based - de Klerk, de Jagar? European based - Weise, Kolbe? How do the URC teams work now?

It'll go on a club by club basis (on the whole) in regards to who is released for an internationals outside the window. All England players will be released, all English based SA players won't be.

The annoying thing is that although there will be changes in the NZ line up this week I do think that they are a very beatable team; unfortunately so are we and more boring with it. Sometimes it's these big matches where there has been a lot of focus from coaches and players where we turn up, everything clicks or it's more a focus on good defence where suddenly we look a different team. The crowd will likely be more invested and vocal too which will help. I can understand coaches not wanting to go into the reasons for picking players but it would be great to hear. I can guess anyway, Nowell and Youngs are in the team as they're leaders and bring valuable experience to the game. Radwan and Mitchell are great young players but we feel there are certain areas which they need to work so we've let them go back to their clubs.

Imagine sticking Radwan and Mitchell on after 60mins and telling them to go out and attack.....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Imagine sticking Radwan and Mitchell on after 60mins and telling them to go out and attack.....

Farrell would still kick possession away.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Imagine sticking Radwan and Mitchell on after 60mins and telling them to go out and attack.....

Yep. Will it ever happen? Maybe post 2023 RWC.

Neither of them will be in the match day squads even after 2023...

Why not? Jones be gone and the new coach might actually want someone with pace and a bit of X factor.

Just cant see it.

I suspect and hope whoever is new coach - and Rugby Union podcast still saying it's Borthwick in box seat - will say adios to several stalwarts of Jones reign and select a combination of those still young enough and good enough to continue for a few years plus new players with potential.

As always wait and see. On that note, team for Saturday announced today. Oh joy....

i hope we see a few of those away also. There on "credit in the bank" not current or even recent form.

Theres plenty of talented young wingers to choose from...Radwan is a class act, but you can make a pretty big list of his competition...

Anyone see Borthwick as the most obvious choice prior to that relaxation of an English coach requirement but also very much a continuity appointment to Jones? I've said it before but you quite often see a pick forncoach go the opposite way from the previous. I think we may see this for England.

England team announced, best available from wider squad I'd say. Obviously not got those in some of us want but from who Jones has selected think it's fair enough.

mountain man wrote:England team announced, best available from wider squad I'd say. Obviously not got those in some of us want but from who Jones has selected think it's fair enough.

I'm not sure picking an 8 at flanker and Nowell again is the best! 2 centres on the bench though so we continue with Slade coming on at full back to knock the ball on. not sure what I really make of it.

15. Freddie Steward

14. Jack Nowell (VC)

13. Manu Tuilagi

12. Owen Farrell (C)

11. Jonny May

10. Marcus Smith

9. Jack van Poortvliet

1. Ellis Genge (VC)

2. Luke Cowan-Dickie

3. Kyle Sinckler

4. Maro Itoje

5. Jonny Hill

6. Sam Simmonds

7. Tom Curry

8. Billy Vunipola

Finishers

16. Jamie George

17. Mako Vunipola

18. Will Stuart

19. David Ribbans

20. Jack Willis

21. Ben Youngs

22. Guy Porter

23. Henry Slade

At least Youngs doesn't start and Itoje is back at lock. Tuilagi starts which is good, and Farrell gets his 100th England cap. Stuart strengthens the subs bench as Heyes has looked a little underpowered, hard to say for certain though as he's coming on with Vunipola.

Genge
LCD
Sinckler
Itoje
Hill
Simmonds
Billy
Curry
JvP
Smith
Farrell
Manu
May
Nowell
Steward

George Mako Stuart Ribbans Willis Youngs Porter Slade

No wing on bench so assume Manu goes there if needed and Slade in centre. Willis hopefully on for a bit more than 4 minutes.

I think Simmonds on flank is OK assuming Willis gets on for a decent amount. I see why Billy chosen for size and power in carry and Curry Simmonds more speed to breakdown. Nowell definitely not my choice on wing but it's Jones isn't it. Been through this before.
At least Itoje back in 2nd row.

Overall the team selection is heading slowly in the right direction. If only Eddie read these boards he would get there a bit quicker. Marler must replace Mako and for SA I would like to see Farrell at 10 with Manu/Slade in the centres.

However, we have Maro back in the engine room and Simmonds into 6 which is at least quicker than we are used to. Billy owes us all a big performance as we have heard a lot about his return to the side and improved form etc etc but that has not been evident this Autumn. Final chance for Smith at 10 I think and yes Nowell is a lucky boy. Why can't we have a bit more pace Eddie?

All Blacks:
Ethan De Groot
Codie Taylor
Tyrel Lomax
Brodie Retallick
Sam Whitelock (C)
Scott Barrett
Dalton Papali’i
Ardie Savea
Aaron Smith
Richie Mo’unga
Caleb Clarke
Jordie Barrett
Rieko Ioane
Mark Telea
Beauden Barrett

Reserves: Samisoni Taukei’aho, George Bower, Nepo Laulala, Shannon Frizell, Hoskins Sotutu, TJ Perenara, David Havili, Anton Lienert-Brown

Reiko V Manu should be fun? And interesting that the ABs stick with their RWC semi defeat plan of Barrett at 6. Is Simmonds any good as a line out option?

Boring uninspiring selections in too many positions.

Hmm interesting, the game we switch back to having two flankers on the flank is the game NZ switch to playing with three locks. Is this a bit of genius by Eddie or are we going to see a post Bok final type effect where the hybrid 6 is seen as a requirement as opposed to an option after this.

Well 2 8s anyway Sam! Think Barrett lined up at 6 in the semi final as well didn't he? Hope it ends the same way.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well 2 8s anyway Sam! Think Barrett lined up at 6 in the semi final as well didn't he? Hope it ends the same way.

He did play 6 in the semi v England but also played at 6 for the first test v Ireland in NZ which they won handsomely.

HAsn't Simmonds played a fair bit at 6 for Exeter? Would certainly seem to have the physical attributes necessary, and will cetainly provide more pace than playing Itoje there again. Does though seem a bit odd to start two guys who are mainly 8s while leaving Willis on the bench - I'd have thought WIllis starting and Simmonds on the bench would have provided better balance and impact.

Otherwise, seems to be largely a sensible selection - Nowell and Farrell have their detractors, but obviously Jones likes what they do for the team.

Got to think this is pretty close to Jones's first choice XV other than Lawes coming back in somewhere, and probably as close as we'll ever get (because of a relative lack of injury absences*) to us ever actually getting a first schoice side out there.

* I think we'd all agree that the starting XV for the 2003 RWC final was pretty much the ideal 'on paper' starting XV for the time. I'd be interested to know how many games they actually all played together - iirc, Richard Hill missed some matches in the RWC with injury, and in the preceding Australasia tour, Bracken was SH with Dawson on the bench v Aus (may have been coming back from injury?)

I'm a bit baffled by the sudden decision to go from 3 lineout options to 2. Given Eddie has spent most of the past 18 months trying to give himself more options in the air, shifting to having a back row with at most one recognised lineout option seems a bit perverse.

I'm really interested to see how Jordie Barrett at IC (which I think is one of the best selection decisions the ABs have stumbled upon) goes against Farrell.

I don't think England will have enough pace out wide with Nowell in the team and especially when the subs come on, and I'm expecting the scrum to have an edge in the first 50 but to struggle against the AB replacements.

Anyone know if the Bristol v SA A game is on TV tonight?

I would be guessing that Billy Cheeseburger won't last the full 80 and the plan would be to slide Simmonds back to 8 once Billy departs and Jack Willis comes on.  I think it will be fascinating to see how differently, if at all, the team performs after Billy is off.  

A bit surprised about Nowell, he gives me the impression of exactly who he is:  A high mileage, formerly very good player with an injury history.  

I also presume Ribbans will get 8 minutes off the bench, not score or gain a lot of yards, and then not be picked for the rest of this century.  

However, I think I agree with Geordie, not a very inspiring team selection.

Are there many back rows that play the full 80 more often than Billy?!

There are some justified criticisms of Billy when his form and fitness fell off a cliff after injuries but since getting back to fitness with Sarries last season going the 80 surely isn't a recent one? Also not one through his career? I'd say one of Billy's biggest strengths has tended to be his work rate doesn't drop off throughout a full game!

Overall I love that JvP starts. Will be interested to see Smith-Farrell-Manu with a bit of pace on one wing. Looking forward to seeing two carriers in the back row and Itoje back at lock. Nowell is a meh pick though, would much rather Freeman.

It's a real shame Arundell is injured as I think there may well have been a punt taken on him starting. A fullback with strong core skills but winger pace and physicality very much suits the game plan.

Jordie Barrett was an inside centre during his u20 days, I remember being surprised that he was moved to 15 in the seniors as he never struck me as having the pace for the role

I would have thought Willis would have been the choice at flanker if Eddie was trying to replicate the Curry/Underhill combo from the semi final, but Simmonds will hopefully be ok.

Looking forward to it though, should be the first game I watch live this AIs!

Any one know if this week ends game is on tv any where ? have looked cannot see anything.

majesticimperialman wrote:Any one know if this week ends game is on tv any where ? have looked cannot see anything.

Do you mean Eng NZ?

Amazon Prime same as all other Autumn internationals

Thanks.

A little disconcerted that Nowell is playing against NZ and Cokanasiga is missing due to injury.

Cokanasiga is on the bench for Bath on Sunday, when they play the Barbarians....