England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

Geordie wrote:And what effect will dropping JVP completely have on him. I remember a young Matt Tait getting the same treatment and it did alot of damage.  

Yep I've made this point as well. Aside from fact, and it is a fact, he's a better 9 than Youngs.
It makes sense I reluctantly admit to keep Youngs in 23 but JvP should either start or get meaningful time off bench. Not an Eddie Jones token 3 mins.

It would be a huge mistake to drop JvP from the squad or even too the bench myself. He has shown, in his short career, that he is up to International standard. He may not have had the best game against the AB's but that happens from time to time and i do not think he was as bad as being made out to bee, had a few unlucky calls go against him.

Speed in the back 3 is a major concern for England, especially Nowell.

Again, the 10 12 combo just does not gel, one or the other has to be picked with the other going on the bench.

Manu, once an absolute beast but injuries and age have taken their tool on him. He just does not seem up to it anymore.

BV, I like him and would persist. I did not think he was that bad (excluding the penalties given away).

I think people have been harsh on Smith with kicking the ball out as well. England were hardly in a position to attack and the AB's are masters at pulling out last minute victories.

Agree with all that eirebilly.

Trouble is Jones. I suspect he might drop Nowell finally, he has to surely but reckon the Smith Farrell 10 12 will continue.
Personally now I'd start Farrell with Smith bench. Trouble is who goes to 12? Normally you'd say Manu but he's a busted flush these days. With seemingly no hope of anyone outside wider squad getting a look in like Marchant, Lawrence etc I fear it'll be nigh on same 15/23.

Heaf wrote:Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought Raynal was awful now .... perhaps we can get Rassie to make a video :whistle:

That's going a bit far. I do worry that Raynal is becoming the next Steve Walsh. I may just be being paranoid, but it seems as if when a team have a controversial match with a particular ref, World Rugby like to keep assigning that ref to the team with the gripe, perhaps in the hope that they'll reach some sort of understanding. I suppose the All Blacks might feel the same about Wayne Barnes - but at least Barnes is one of the best refs in the game.

My worry is that it just creates a perpetuation of whatever went wrong in the first place - it must be hard as a ref in that situation not to feel that you need to double down on how you handle that team rather than be accused of atoning for past sins. It's not helped by the weak spots in the ref's skill set. Walsh was appalling at giving a fair hearing to a captain who was under the cosh, had a weak understanding of the scrum and used his ARs far less than he could have; Raynal sometimes makes interpretations that are very much outliers compared to his peers and underuses (or occasionally ignores) the TMO.

I suppose the only answer is that the affected team need to learn how to play to that ref's interpretation - which may be why they get reassigned to ref them - but it's tough when they're making calls that are out of line with what other refs are doing.

mountain man wrote:Agree with all that eirebilly.

Trouble is Jones. I suspect he might drop Nowell finally, he has to surely but reckon the Smith Farrell 10 12 will continue.
Personally now I'd start Farrell with Smith bench. Trouble is who goes to 12? Normally you'd say Manu but he's a busted flush these days. With seemingly no hope of anyone outside wider squad getting a look in like Marchant, Lawrence etc I fear it'll be nigh on same 15/23.

Its all for post WC...as until then its Farrells spot.

Post world cup look at how all of these are developing...

Dan Kelly
Max Ojomoh
Anywanyu
Ewan Greenlaw
Ethan Grayson
Ollie Hartley - If he moves to Saracens as rumoured...could be interesting. Big unit and they develop players well!
Seb Atkinson

Plenty of young 12's coming through all at different stages of their development.

Maybe the bath centre combo for club and country

12 Ojomoh
13 Lawrence

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So why back him and not van Poortvliet?

Because JVP was terrible.....one of the worst scrum half performances I've seen at International level in a long time. I'd drop JVP, not only because he was abysmal, but also to take him out of the firing line. Do you think SA will go easy on him? They will target him him relentlessly after seeing him against NZ. He's a kid finding his feet, he doesn't need to take another hammering.......

As much as we don't rate Youngs, he has 100+ caps and will be able to deal with the occasion against SA.

If we drop Billy, we don't have anyone adequate to replace him.

Looking back...he threw an intercept pass, and then some ref errors. He's a better player than Youngs by a country mile. Vunipola made many more errors. And you can replace Vunipola with Simmonds or Dombrandt. Even move Curry there and bring in Coles at 6.

I think we must have watched different games 7.5.

If you put in a shocker....you get dropped, or at least move onto the bench. This is England we're talking about, not play school. We want to win. I don't care if you have 5 caps or 500.....there needs to be some base line level of performance to represent your country.

Yep but that's post RWC, post Jones and we all hope or most of us do that next head coach will pick players on form and not all the old guard on reputation.

As I've said before, for a long time I supported Jones even through all the stupid comments and irrational team selections but I've lost all faith now. I'll always support team through thick and thin but now I'm just waiting for post RWC2023 to start afresh. Maybe he'll surprise us all and win but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

Poorfour wrote:

Heaf wrote:Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought Raynal was awful now .... perhaps we can get Rassie to make a video

That's going a bit far. I do worry that Raynal is becoming the next Steve Walsh. I may just be being paranoid, but it seems as if when a team have a controversial match with a particular ref, World Rugby like to keep assigning that ref to the team with the gripe, perhaps in the hope that they'll reach some sort of understanding. I suppose the All Blacks might feel the same about Wayne Barnes - but at least Barnes is one of the best refs in the game.

My worry is that it just creates a perpetuation of whatever went wrong in the first place - it must be hard as a ref in that situation not to feel that you need to double down on how you handle that team rather than be accused of atoning for past sins. It's not helped by the weak spots in the ref's skill set. Walsh was appalling at giving a fair hearing to a captain who was under the cosh, had a weak understanding of the scrum and used his ARs far less than he could have; Raynal sometimes makes interpretations that are very much outliers compared to his peers and underuses (or occasionally ignores) the TMO.

I suppose the only answer is that the affected team need to learn how to play to that ref's interpretation - which may be why they get reassigned to ref them - but it's tough when they're making calls that are out of line with what other refs are doing.

I get what you're saying but how do you adapt to a ref that calls a knock-on against you when you haven't touched the ball, or calls the ball out of a ruck when it clearly isn't for example?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So why back him and not van Poortvliet?

Because JVP was terrible.....one of the worst scrum half performances I've seen at International level in a long time. I'd drop JVP, not only because he was abysmal, but also to take him out of the firing line. Do you think SA will go easy on him? They will target him him relentlessly after seeing him against NZ. He's a kid finding his feet, he doesn't need to take another hammering.......

As much as we don't rate Youngs, he has 100+ caps and will be able to deal with the occasion against SA.

If we drop Billy, we don't have anyone adequate to replace him.

Looking back...he threw an intercept pass, and then some ref errors. He's a better player than Youngs by a country mile. Vunipola made many more errors. And you can replace Vunipola with Simmonds or Dombrandt.  Even move Curry there and bring in Coles at 6.

I think we must have watched different games 7.5.

If you put in a shocker....you get dropped, or at least move onto the bench. This is England we're talking about, not play school. We want to win. I don't care if you have 5 caps or 500.....there needs to be some base line level of performance to represent your country.

We may well have done. I'm guessing I give more leeway to vP on the charge down and knock on, as they were ref mistakes. And I guess when looking at Vunipola giving away 3 silly breakdown pens, back to back from memory and then the score which took them to 24 as poorer mistakes. If you stand by dropping players for playing poorly no matter what you should be calling for both their heads.

Intercept passes will happen as well but is normally due to ambition which I like. You don't see youngs throw many as he rarely looks to make those big passes(just kicks!). So for me vP should stay in Mitchell to the bench. For what it's worth I'd have Dombrandt in at 8 if he is fit, sure he's played for Harlequins at the same time as that first match. If not stick with Billy as I'd be looking to make other changes elsewhere.

mountain man wrote:Yep but that's post RWC, post Jones and we all hope or most of us do that next head coach will pick players on form and not all the old guard on reputation.

As I've said before, for a long time I supported Jones even through all the stupid comments and irrational team selections but I've lost all faith now. I'll always support team through thick and thin but now I'm just waiting for post RWC2023 to start afresh. Maybe he'll surprise us all and win but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

Rumours are that the RFU are looking at Roberston (yes please), O'Gara (yeah ok) or Borthwick (no ta). Given Edwards has said he's just spoken to the RFU it may not be beyond the realms of possibility that they know who they want.

Heaf wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Heaf wrote:Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought Raynal was awful now .... perhaps we can get Rassie to make a video

That's going a bit far. I do worry that Raynal is becoming the next Steve Walsh. I may just be being paranoid, but it seems as if when a team have a controversial match with a particular ref, World Rugby like to keep assigning that ref to the team with the gripe, perhaps in the hope that they'll reach some sort of understanding. I suppose the All Blacks might feel the same about Wayne Barnes - but at least Barnes is one of the best refs in the game.

My worry is that it just creates a perpetuation of whatever went wrong in the first place - it must be hard as a ref in that situation not to feel that you need to double down on how you handle that team rather than be accused of atoning for past sins. It's not helped by the weak spots in the ref's skill set. Walsh was appalling at giving a fair hearing to a captain who was under the cosh, had a weak understanding of the scrum and used his ARs far less than he could have; Raynal sometimes makes interpretations that are very much outliers compared to his peers and underuses (or occasionally ignores) the TMO.

I suppose the only answer is that the affected team need to learn how to play to that ref's interpretation - which may be why they get reassigned to ref them - but it's tough when they're making calls that are out of line with what other refs are doing.

I get what you're saying but how do you adapt to a ref that calls a knock-on against you when you haven't touched the ball, or calls the ball out of a ruck when it clearly isn't for example?

You do it the way Farrell did brilliantly. You quietly ask for confirmation and drive your team to accept the poor decisions and get on with it. Eventually the ball bounces your way, just don't piss off the ref!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Yep but that's post RWC, post Jones and we all hope or most of us do that next head coach will pick players on form and not all the old guard on reputation.

As I've said before, for a long time I supported Jones even through all the stupid comments and irrational team selections but I've lost all faith now. I'll always support team through thick and thin but now I'm just waiting for post RWC2023 to start afresh. Maybe he'll surprise us all and win but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

Rumours are that the RFU are looking at Roberston (yes please), O'Gara (yeah ok) or Borthwick (no ta). Given Edwards has said he's just spoken to the RFU it may not be beyond the realms of possibility that they know who they want.

I would like to see Owen Farrells face if Robertson started breakdancing in front of him...

Unchanged wider squad.

Alex Coles

Luke Cowan-Dickie

Tom Curry

Ellis Genge

Jamie George 

Joe Heyes

Jonny Hill

Maro Itoje

David Ribbans

Sean Robinson (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

Bevan Rodd 

Sam Simmonds

Kyle Sinckler

Jack Singleton

Will Stuart

Hugh Tizard

Billy Vunipola

Mako Vunipola

Jack Willis

Backs

Joe Cokanasiga

Owen Farrell

Tommy Freeman

George Furbank

Will Joseph

Jonny May

Alex Mitchell

Cadan Murley 

Jack Nowell

Guy Porter

Adam Radwan 

Henry Slade

Marcus Smith

Freddie Steward 

Manu Tuilagi

Jack van Poortvliet

Ben Youngs

Radwan and Sean Robinson there for holding the tackle bags again...

Hope springs eternal Geordie.

Re:  JvP, just remember EJ has to manage the locker room, and depending how the players feel, starting him may be a problem.  Only someone in that room can judge the temper appropriately and make that call.  

Mostly want to talk about my Saints players in the mix (not going outside the existing wider squad).

Ribbans - Always a unit, and like most Saints has improved conditioning, ball handling, and field vision significantly under Chris Boyd.  People also talk about how that aspect of Courtney Lawes game has improved.  Same for Ribbans and Coles (Ludlum too) - same coaches, same attacking skills.  To me he is a better player than Hill, at least at this moment.  Better haircut, too.  

Coles - I would like to see him get a shot in the 2nd row off the bench.  Like him enough at 6, but for the Bok game would prefer in the second row.  He also has an excellent passing game for a lock and has a motor which doesn't quit.  May need to up his bulk, but have to see.  Haven't seen him take on the likes of Etzebeth, but did well against Lood de Jager at Sale.      

Freeman - to me has to start on the wing.  A natural fullback with a lot of game time on the wing.  Strong under kicks, very quick and high top end speed.  Would take pressure off Steward or make it more difficult to kick away from him.  To me, this is the right time for him to take his chance.  Only problem is for England to actually use him when he plays (unlike other players in the past).  But, I am sure the Boks will test him right away.  That's what I would do.

Mitchell - well this should be his time to shine or not.  But won't happen.  Shame - he looks a natural to pair with Smith.  Perhaps the two of them together would play too fast?

To think some moan about the TMO.

Just watched England v Iran and blimey VAR is just a shambles.

Maguire literally rugby tackled but nothing given, not even reviewed. Merest hint of a shirt pull and penalty for Iran.

Utter utter farce.

Sorry about bringing football here...

Anyway.
unchanged squad and I fully expect a nigh on same 23/15. Maybe one or two tweaks but nothing major.

Oh well.

JVP a very lucky boy to be retained....

Only the extended squad sarge you may get your wish to see Youngs start and no v P. Personally I'm hoping this is the game for a new wing or 2. I can see Freeman starting.

JVP

Was that not his first international start? We all recognise you get a bit less time in an international compared to most club games and NZ targeted him mercilessly and right on ( over?) the edge of legality

He also got little protection from his forwards

Too soon to discard him. You have all be shouting that Youngs needs to be dropped so who else?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:JVP a very lucky boy to be retained....

Don't be ridiculous, one poor game against the ABs aside he's looked to the manor born at international level. You don't bin a 21 year old out of the training squad for that.

If you're doing that then we'd have been through every EQ player in the Prem because nearly every England player has had a stinker at some point this season and the squad rotation would be massive. Some players have had several stinkers.

Fin Smith was in the England camp today as well. Not named but obviously training.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fin Smith was in the England camp today as well. Not named but obviously training.

Nice one Eddie, keep the lad close he's got huge potential and is quite the talent already.

mountain man wrote:To think some moan about the TMO.

Just watched England v Iran and blimey VAR is just a shambles.

Maguire literally rugby tackled but nothing given, not even reviewed. Merest hint of a shirt pull and penalty for Iran.

Utter utter farce.

Sorry about bringing football here...

 

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:JVP a very lucky boy to be retained....

Don't be ridiculous, one poor game against the ABs aside he's looked to the manor born at international level. You don't bin a 21 year old out of the training squad for that.

If you're doing that then we'd have been through every EQ player in the Prem because nearly every England player has had a stinker at some point this season and the squad rotation would be massive. Some players have had several stinkers.

Hardly ridiculous. If you put in a performance as bad as that, you run the risk of being dropped, this is quite normal actually. I wouldn't have been surprised to see him sent back to Leicester for a number of reasons....keep him out of the firing line and to work on a few things.

He's looked good coming off the bench against tired sides but he gets the chance to start.....well, we know. No harm in him taking a backwards step from the squad or back to the bench.

I'd go with Youngs/Mitchell for SA personally.

Where did you think he went wrong then sarge, what would his work ons be.

And seemingly Vunipola can repeat his performance because he's a big 8 and you don't feel there is anyone to challenge him?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:...Hardly ridiculous. If you put in a performance as bad as that, you run the risk of being dropped...

That's certainly true. Jones has had no qualms about casting players aside when they have been anonymous, rather than conspicuously poor.

However, if JVP needs to be in contention for the World Cup squad - and Jones appears to think so - then the only consideration is how to manage him now. That's a judgement call, and it could be to put him on the naughty step, or it might be to get him back on the bike as soon as possible.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:...Hardly ridiculous. If you put in a performance as bad as that, you run the risk of being dropped...

That's certainly true. Jones has had no qualms about casting players aside when they have been anonymous, rather than conspicuously poor.

However, if JVP needs to be in contention for the World Cup squad - and Jones appears to think so - then the only consideration is how to manage him now. That's a judgement call, and it could be to put him on the naughty step, or it might be to get him back on the bike as soon as possible.

This is pretty much what I was alluding too. We've seen players disregarded for much better performances, so he can count himself lucky. Robson never put in a performance as bad as this, similar with Spencer etc. If it was Care playing as bad as this last week he'd have been hooked after 20mins.

Sometimes with Eddie it's if your face fits rather than end product on the pitch.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:JVP a very lucky boy to be retained....

Don't be ridiculous, one poor game against the ABs aside he's looked to the manor born at international level. You don't bin a 21 year old out of the training squad for that.

If you're doing that then we'd have been through every EQ player in the Prem because nearly every England player has had a stinker at some point this season and the squad rotation would be massive. Some players have had several stinkers.

Hardly ridiculous. If you put in a performance as bad as that, you run the risk of being dropped, this is quite normal actually. I wouldn't have been surprised to see him sent back to Leicester for a number of reasons....keep him out of the firing line and to work on a few things.

He's looked good coming off the bench against tired sides but he gets the chance to start.....well, we know. No harm in him taking a backwards step from the squad or back to the bench.

I'd go with Youngs/Mitchell for SA personally.

Some of the refs calls were random and harsh on JVP and his forwards were shocking. If you're sending players back for poor performances then several others should have been dropped before now. If you send him back you risk crushing his confidence. Eddie's spend the last six months building him up with an eye on taking him to the world cup you can't just ditch him now. Well I suppose the caveat to that would be if he looks like he's struggling in training then you'd have to cut him loose but as long as he's still training well you give him the chance to get back on the horse.

Having said that we could use him back at Leicester if Eddie is dumb enough to drop him. We've only got 40 year old Wigglesworth and 20 year old Sam Edwards for the weekend.

Mitchell hasn't been capped so far and I'd be surprised if he was now. His tendency to drift in and out of games and questions over his fitness probably don't help.

I'm hoping Cockers is putting the fear of well Cockers into the forwards for this weekend. They were as much use as a wet paper bag in the first half last weekend.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:...Hardly ridiculous. If you put in a performance as bad as that, you run the risk of being dropped...

That's certainly true. Jones has had no qualms about casting players aside when they have been anonymous, rather than conspicuously poor.

However, if JVP needs to be in contention for the World Cup squad - and Jones appears to think so - then the only consideration is how to manage him now. That's a judgement call, and it could be to put him on the naughty step, or it might be to get him back on the bike as soon as possible.

This is pretty much what I was alluding too. We've seen players disregarded for much better performances, so he can count himself lucky. Robson never put in a performance as bad as this, similar with Spencer etc. If it was Care playing as bad as this last week he'd have been hooked after 20mins.

Sometimes with Eddie it's if your face fits rather than end product on the pitch.

Robson, Scotland away was it where he came off the bench and box kicked directly upwards giving them a penalty, think he threw and interception as well? Wasn't Robson's last cap.

Smith Vs France in the 6N.

Hill Vs NZ last weekend.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:JVP a very lucky boy to be retained....

Don't be ridiculous, one poor game against the ABs aside he's looked to the manor born at international level. You don't bin a 21 year old out of the training squad for that.

If you're doing that then we'd have been through every EQ player in the Prem because nearly every England player has had a stinker at some point this season and the squad rotation would be massive. Some players have had several stinkers.

Hardly ridiculous. If you put in a performance as bad as that, you run the risk of being dropped, this is quite normal actually. I wouldn't have been surprised to see him sent back to Leicester for a number of reasons....keep him out of the firing line and to work on a few things.

He's looked good coming off the bench against tired sides but he gets the chance to start.....well, we know. No harm in him taking a backwards step from the squad or back to the bench.

I'd go with Youngs/Mitchell for SA personally.

Some of the refs calls were random and harsh on JVP and his forwards were shocking. If you're sending players back for poor performances then several others should have been dropped before now. If you send him back you risk crushing his confidence. Eddie's spend the last six months building him up with an eye on taking him to the world cup you can't just ditch him now. Well I suppose the caveat to that would be if he looks like he's struggling in training then you'd have to cut him loose but as long as he's still training well you give him the chance to get back on the horse.

Having said that we could use him back at Leicester if Eddie is dumb enough to drop him. We've only got 40 year old Wigglesworth and 20 year old Sam Edwards for the weekend.

Mitchell hasn't been capped so far and I'd be surprised if he was now. His tendency to drift in and out of games and questions over his fitness probably don't help.

I'm hoping Cockers is putting the fear of well Cockers into the forwards for this weekend. They were as much use as a wet paper bag in the first half last weekend.

Mitchell is class. I think this drift in thing is more to do with your distaste of attacking!

And who is in charge of the maul; is it cockers. Cos I so its him that should be read the riot act as its been useless!

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:...Hardly ridiculous. If you put in a performance as bad as that, you run the risk of being dropped...

That's certainly true. Jones has had no qualms about casting players aside when they have been anonymous, rather than conspicuously poor.

However, if JVP needs to be in contention for the World Cup squad - and Jones appears to think so - then the only consideration is how to manage him now. That's a judgement call, and it could be to put him on the naughty step, or it might be to get him back on the bike as soon as possible.

Good points. If we all knew the best way to actually manage and read people to help them when needed....

As I said before and to your point, Jones has to read and manage the locker room as well as deciding what he thinks is best for the player and the team. If he feels the team has lost confidence in JvP in any degree he can't play him. Or if Jones feels the player has lost confidence he can't play him either. On the other hand if they feel he can rebound, and Jones does too, then play him, either to start or finish. I think these are amongst the most difficult decisions for a coach. For me, I think the Boks are not the team against whom to try and get one's mojo back. One thing JvP does have is plenty of time.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fin Smith was in the England camp today as well. Not named but obviously training.

Paws off! He is ours :-)

Nothing wrong with Mitchell fitness these days, maybe previously but no longer.

However, my feeling is Jones will start Youngs with JvP bench. Whichever way around JvP should be in match day 23.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:...Hardly ridiculous. If you put in a performance as bad as that, you run the risk of being dropped...

That's certainly true. Jones has had no qualms about casting players aside when they have been anonymous, rather than conspicuously poor.

However, if JVP needs to be in contention for the World Cup squad - and Jones appears to think so - then the only consideration is how to manage him now. That's a judgement call, and it could be to put him on the naughty step, or it might be to get him back on the bike as soon as possible.

This is pretty much what I was alluding too. We've seen players disregarded for much better performances, so he can count himself lucky. Robson never put in a performance as bad as this, similar with Spencer etc. If it was Care playing as bad as this last week he'd have been hooked after 20mins.

Sometimes with Eddie it's if your face fits rather than end product on the pitch.

Robson, Scotland away was it where he came off the bench and box kicked directly upwards giving them a penalty, think he threw and interception as well? Wasn't Robson's last cap.

Smith Vs France in the 6N.

Hill Vs NZ last weekend.

None of those performances rank anywhere near JVP's train wreck last week.

Mitchell is a cracking scrum half, not sure I can agree on any of your points there....he's also capped.

He really didn't make that many errors though. What are his work ons for you?

Is Fin Smith an apprentice in the England squad? Noticed a training video of the team yesterday and Fin Smith was training with them.

Edit i see that was already mentioned.

Had assumed that de Klerk wasn't available this weekend, not realising that Japan haven't started thier season yet. SA missing Esterhuizen, Wiese, Koch, Kolbe and Reinach

Bok team for Saturday

15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 82 caps, 65 pts (13t)
14 – Kurt-Lee Arendse (Vodacom Bulls) – 6 caps, 30 pts (6t)
13 – Jesse Kriel (Canon Eagles) – 58 caps, 60 pts (12t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Wild Knights) – 69 caps, 45 pts (9t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 35 caps, 110 pts (22t)
10 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 26 caps, 35 pts (3t, 4c, 4p)
9 – Faf de Klerk (Canon Eagles) – 45 caps, 30 pts (5t, 1c, 1p)
8 – Evan Roos (DHL Stormers) – 2 caps, 0 pts
7 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 62 caps, 15 pts (3t)
6 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 74 caps, 45 pts (9t)
5 – Marvin Orie (DHL Stormers) – 10 caps, 0 pts
4 – Eben Etzebeth (Cell C Sharks) – 109 caps, 15 pts (3t)
3 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 57 caps, 5 pts (1t)
2 – Bongi Mbonambi (Cell C Sharks) – 55 caps, 60 pts (12t)
1 – Ox Nche (Cell C Sharks) – 18 caps, 0 pts

Reserves

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 58 caps, 70 pts (14t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 70 caps, 10 pts (2t)
18 – Thomas du Toit (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 0 pts
19 – Marco van Staden (Vodacom Bulls) – 9 caps, 0 pts
20 – Kwagga Smith (Shizuoka Blue Revs) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)
21 – Jaden Hendrikse (Cell C Sharks) – 11 caps, 12 pts (2t, 1c)
22 – Manie Libbok (DHL Stormers) – 2 cap, 10 pts (5c)
23 – Canan Moodie (Vodacom Bulls) – 3 caps, 5 pts (1t)

Willis dropped, Tizard in. Murley dropped. Radwan dropped. Mitchell dropped. Freeman retained.

Ffs.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ffs.

I second that.

Do you think Willis regrets not moving to Ulster?

I doubt it, why?

carpet baboon wrote:Do you think Willis regrets not moving to Ulster?

Wrong Willis. Tom Willis his brother was rumoured to be heading to Ulster as he's dual qualified still. He's signed for Bordeaux instead. Can't blame him, beautiful city and decent club side that could do with some extra quality in the backrow.

Great. I don't know what will be worse - losing and seeing nothing come of this autumn or somehow winning this match against what I assume is going to be a bloody knackered boks side, and seeing nothing come of this autumn. Either way i'm already not looking forward to another 6N's of losses and Poopie games.

Jack was courted around covid time.

Interesting question re Willis given the Toulouse move is whether he's available? The Prem players are available outside the international window but players outside the Prem presumably won't be the same as the Boks not having access to their Premiership based players for this game.

The "extraordinary circumstances" rule allows a player to be selected but that doesn't mean they're released for camps and matches outside international windows.

yappysnap wrote:Great. I don't know what will be worse - losing and seeing nothing come of this autumn or somehow winning this match against what I assume is going to be a bloody knackered boks side, and seeing nothing come of this autumn. Either way i'm already not looking forward to another 6N's of losses and Poopie games.

This captures the feeling well. I've haven't learned anything about England as a team for a while. For most other top international sides, it's possible to discern how they are developing. For instance, South Africa have lost a few games and yet they are coming together in other areas. The All Blacks are starting to click ominously too. France and Ireland might have just squeaked a couple of results but the general philosophy is clear and the are looking to expand their player pool.

With England, on the back of the last couple of years, I don't know who our best scrummaging pack is; our best lock combination; our best back row; our best half-back combination; our best midfield; or our best back three.

It's not even clear who Jones would select, if everyone was available. Is it Lawes, Curry and Vunipola in the back row? They've only started a couple of Tests together as a trio, so how would we know? Smith, Farrell and Tuilagi in the midfield? Possibly. Again, they've barely played together. Is any winger guaranteed a start alongside Steward?

As a result of this uncertainty, if we do win, as we managed twice in Australia, it doesn't seem to settle any selection issue.