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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

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Post by Geordie Mon 28 Nov 2022, 8:07 am

The other isssue is the non dedicated fans.

We are all big rugby fans...many of my pals are football fans who ive managed to convert to watching the England games etc. They want to see good games. Most of them now are just not watching the games as they're dire.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Mon 28 Nov 2022, 11:53 am

A pretty frustrating game to watch and far too many scrums played into SA hands. Thought the ref got a few of his scrum calls wrong and missed the pretty obvious forward pass in their first try.
DeKlerk has certainly got under the skin of a few England players and his exaggerated back flip when pulled off the ruck certainly got the penalty reverse.

You could hear the ref state several times to the front rows to hold their weight and Malherbe is unusual for a TH prop in that he doesn't scrum long to lock and consequently bears downwards force rather than legal lateral force, which takes tremendous strength against his opposing two front rowers, so the England LH underneath him, either just goes down on his elbows like Mako who scrums long or folds like Genge who takes a more aggressive stance.

Difficult to see what happened to Stuart but if he has dislocated his inside shoulder once the scrum has gone down, suggests the SA front continued pushing in the twist when on the floor and Stuart got his arm trapped, not good.

The only positive is that on the other side of the RWC draw, I think it will be France and NZ that progress, so SA can be avoided !

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Post by Heuer27 Mon 28 Nov 2022, 12:28 pm

As an outsider looking in, the current England team are old and stale.
They have exciting backs that don’t feature and abrasive forwards that don’t really get look in.
If I was picking 15 to frighten the big boys it would go something like this
15 Steward
14 Arundell/ Haskell Collins
13 Slade
12 Lawrence / Atkinson
11 Radwan
10 Smith
 9 Mitchell / Quirk
 8 Dombrant
 7 Earl
 6 Lawes
 5 Ribbans
 4 Itoje
 3 Sinkler
 2 Mcguigan
 1 Genge
 That team has pace, guile bulk and some dog. Threats all over the park which would keep teams guessing and on their toes.
It’ll never happen though.

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Post by mountain man Mon 28 Nov 2022, 12:33 pm

Heuer27 wrote:As an outsider looking in, the current England team are old and stale.
They have exciting backs that don’t feature and abrasive forwards that don’t really get look in.
If I was picking 15 to frighten the big boys it would go something like this
15 Steward
14 Arundell
13 Slade
12 Lawrence / Atkinson
11 Radwan
10 Smith
 9 Mitchell / Quirk
 8 Dombrant
 7 Earl
 6 Lawes
 5 Ribbans
 4 Itoje
 3 Sinkler
 2 Mcguigan
 1 Genge
 That team has pace, guile bulk and some dog. Threats all over the park which would keep teams guessing and on their toes.
It’ll never happen though.

I'd happily see that team run out! However, as you say chances of it happening slim to none.

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Post by Geordie Mon 28 Nov 2022, 12:45 pm

15 Steward
14 Arundell/ Haskell Collins Freeman
13 Slade Lawrence
12 Lawrence / AtkinsonAnwanyu
11 Radwan / Murley
10 Smith / Farrell
9 Mitchell / QuirkJVP
8 Dombrant
7 Earl / Underhill
6 Lawes Ted HIll / George Martin
5 Ribbans
4 Itoje Chessum
3 Sinkler
2 McguiganGeorge
1 Genge

Its tight head that concerns me!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 28 Nov 2022, 1:12 pm

Chessum isn't in Itoje's league come on!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 28 Nov 2022, 1:14 pm

I'd throw in some names I want to see more of, not yet mentioned. Kelly, Ojomoh, H-C, Joseph, Mercer. Intrigued to see how Alo gets on in France.

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Post by Geordie Mon 28 Nov 2022, 1:15 pm

i know...at the moment....but his performances of late have been seriously underwhelming....he deserves to be dropped

He needs some MASSIVE performances...and also needs a beast alongside him...NOT HILL.

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Post by Geordie Mon 28 Nov 2022, 1:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd throw in some names I want to see more of, not yet mentioned. Kelly, Ojomoh, H-C, Joseph, Mercer. Intrigued to see how Alo gets on in France.

i forgot an obvious one...jack Willis

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 28 Nov 2022, 1:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Chessum isn't in Itoje's league come on!

No England option is. Not many outside of England either.

Anwanyu maybe in a few years once he's got some more experience but at the minute he'd be mullered at international level. Great potential but needs more high profile domestic games first.

12 is a problem position. Farrell is a 10 playing out of position though it was worked previously (with limitations). Manu is a sick note and not the force he was. Slade is a 13 and looks out of position at 12. Kelly is injured and has been for a while but is also still quite inexperienced. Porter is a 13. Dingwall has questionable tackle technique especially against big ball carriers (which virtually every international team has and will run down his channel). Ojomoh isn't getting game time at Bath but is another who has a lot of potential. Atkinson looked to slow when he played Vs the Baabaas.

No easy answer there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 28 Nov 2022, 1:48 pm

Well play him at lock for a start. I'd also say he's been underwhelming for him, but not really for a normal lock!

Been thinking of why there are some good players who have played so poorly and whether it's down to tactics etc, which it is in some cases. But then you see guys like Steward who were challenging their own team mates for the ball at times. How hard must it be when you aren't used to the players around you? Not like we're making changes between say 4 players like Brown, Daly, Watson and May in the back 3 but guys on a handful of caps. Same with that back row and lock to an extent.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 28 Nov 2022, 1:48 pm

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd throw in some names I want to see more of, not yet mentioned. Kelly, Ojomoh, H-C, Joseph, Mercer. Intrigued to see how Alo gets on in France.

i forgot an obvious one...jack Willis

That's just a given!

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Post by Geordie Mon 28 Nov 2022, 2:30 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Chessum isn't in Itoje's league come on!

No England option is. Not many outside of England either.

Anwanyu maybe in a few years once he's got some more experience but at the minute he'd be mullered at international level. Great potential but needs more high profile domestic games first.

12 is a problem position. Farrell is a 10 playing out of position though it was worked previously (with limitations). Manu is a sick note and not the force he was. Slade is a 13 and looks out of position at 12. Kelly is injured and has been for a while but is also still quite inexperienced. Porter is a 13. Dingwall has questionable tackle technique especially against big ball carriers (which virtually every international team has and will run down his channel). Ojomoh isn't getting game time at Bath but is another who has a lot of potential. Atkinson looked to slow when he played Vs the Baabaas.

No easy answer there.

Hes no Kruis or Retallick or Ezebeth...we need to find a bruiser. We royally f35ked with out one.

Oh and a tight head prop...i get criticized with my negativity about Sinckler...hes so overhyped. Strolls around with an attitude on him. Sadly the cupboard looks totally bare!!

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 28 Nov 2022, 3:06 pm

Finding bruisers is one thing, finding bruisers that can play and think rugby is something else.

They don't have to be an Einstein, but they do have to know when to use the physicality and when not to.
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Post by Geordie Mon 28 Nov 2022, 3:08 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Finding bruisers is one thing, finding bruisers that can play and think rugby is something else.

They don't have to be an Einstein, but they do have to know when to use the physicality and when not to.

Very true WPI...

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Post by mountain man Mon 28 Nov 2022, 3:18 pm

Well I suspect most of us can and do suggest teams/squads which we think could compete with best in world but unfortunately and crucially the one person who matters doesn't seem to agree. Unless Jones has a sudden change of heart and selects a whole raft of new players - I'd suggest around 6 or 8 be needed and subsequently retires those who frankly don't deserve to be in then nothing will change until post RWC when a new coach is appointed.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 28 Nov 2022, 4:17 pm

[/quote]
Hes no Kruis or Retallick or Ezebeth...we need to find a bruiser. We royally f35ked with out one.
Oh and a tight head prop...i get criticized with my negativity about Sinckler...hes so overhyped.  Strolls around with an attitude on him. Sadly the cupboard looks totally bare!! [/quote]

For me recently, Will Stuart has shown glimpses and on tour that he is the guy in possession (depending on current injury - that looked nasty).
Sinks is the back-up, but way off form and hasnt been there since 2019 and his move to Bristol (an in-form Sinks is something to behold though)
Other TH's to be considered -
Will Collier - about as injured as Manu, but an excellent scrummager
Harry Williams - out of form 'bit like most of chiefs'
Dan Cole - recall for the old head, but showing recent form - I am not sure thats the answer!

Goodrick-Clarke at LI I think is a LH
Shickerling at chiefs has looked good, but I believe there is an eligibility issue at the moment

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Post by hugehandoff Mon 28 Nov 2022, 5:03 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Finding bruisers is one thing, finding bruisers that can play and think rugby is something else.

They don't have to be an Einstein, but they do have to know when to use the physicality and when not to.

To me we have one currently in Launchbury. Apart from the demise of Wasps what sort of form was he in anyway? A true class heavyweight with leadership credentials.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 28 Nov 2022, 5:21 pm

It's all tinkering ain't it until Jones goes.

Re the match I think my despondency has evaporated enough to ask the question....what were the ref and tmo watching when Etzebeth scored that try?!

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Post by Yoda Mon 28 Nov 2022, 6:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's all tinkering ain't it until Jones goes.

Re the match I think my despondency has evaporated enough to ask the question....what were the ref and tmo watching when Etzebeth scored that try?!

I did think that but thought their first was more dodgy with clear Obstruction of Freddie Stewart. But hey ho. Don't think we deserved to win so this game has forced the issues we have into sharp focus so maybe a good thing in the long run.

Build a scrum, sort the midfield dilemma and get some flair and pace on the wings. Pretty big problems unfortunately Shocked

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 28 Nov 2022, 9:44 pm

hugehandoff wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Finding bruisers is one thing, finding bruisers that can play and think rugby is something else.

They don't have to be an Einstein, but they do have to know when to use the physicality and when not to.

To me we have one currently in Launchbury. Apart from the demise of Wasps what sort of form was he in anyway? A true class heavyweight with leadership credentials.

Before his latest injury he looked like he was finally getting back to his best, which had taken some time. Can't say I'd want to be banking on him personally. His lineout work is substandard though he does defend a maul well. Given his injury history and he's now into his thirties he'll at most be an option for next summer. His spell in Japan pretty much rules him out of 6N selection as well.

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Post by Heaf Mon 28 Nov 2022, 9:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's all tinkering ain't it until Jones goes.

Re the match I think my despondency has evaporated enough to ask the question....what were the ref and tmo watching when Etzebeth scored that try?!

Maybe Rassie's video is working?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 28 Nov 2022, 9:59 pm

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Chessum isn't in Itoje's league come on!

No England option is. Not many outside of England either.

Anwanyu maybe in a few years once he's got some more experience but at the minute he'd be mullered at international level. Great potential but needs more high profile domestic games first.

12 is a problem position. Farrell is a 10 playing out of position though it was worked previously (with limitations). Manu is a sick note and not the force he was. Slade is a 13 and looks out of position at 12. Kelly is injured and has been for a while but is also still quite inexperienced. Porter is a 13. Dingwall has questionable tackle technique especially against big ball carriers (which virtually every international team has and will run down his channel). Ojomoh isn't getting game time at Bath but is another who has a lot of potential. Atkinson looked to slow when he played Vs the Baabaas.

No easy answer there.

Hes no Kruis or Retallick or Ezebeth...we need to find a bruiser. We royally f35ked with out one.

Oh and a tight head prop...i get criticized with my negativity about Sinckler...hes so overhyped.  Strolls around with an attitude on him. Sadly the cupboard looks totally bare!!

Ribbans is very promising in the tighthead lock style, showed up well this Autumn. With Tizard, Coles and Chessum coming through we have some big and mobile options though Tizard aside not really bruisers. George Martin played lock for Tigers at the weekend and packed down behind the tighthead, not going to be an option in the short term but if he keeps playing there then maybe. Martin certainly hits hard in defence.

We've got the 6N to keep developing Heyes and depending on his injury Stuart. If we're still unsure by the world cup then there's one easy option and we call up the Colar Bear again, he's in great form and has been for sometime. Post world cup all of Sinckler, Stuart and Heyes are still in their twenties.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 28 Nov 2022, 10:44 pm

hugehandoff wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Finding bruisers is one thing, finding bruisers that can play and think rugby is something else.

They don't have to be an Einstein, but they do have to know when to use the physicality and when not to.

To me we have one currently in Launchbury. Apart from the demise of Wasps what sort of form was he in anyway? A true class heavyweight with leadership credentials.
I was a huge Launchbury fan for a long time but his form declined a lot after the injuries. For an international class lock he was always a very weak lineout jumper. That meant his loose work needed to make up for it. The carrying, offloading, support lines and breakdown work did that for a long time. After the injuries not so much IMO. He was far less prominent in the loose and still a very weak jumper. His defensive maul work has remained absolutely terrific, he's one of the best around there. When I saw him more recently with Wasps he didn't stand out that much at Prem level though. It pains me to say it about a previous favourite but the injuries took a toll. Hopefully after a bit of a break and lighter season in Japan he might rediscover his best with Quins.

Tizard, Chessum and Ribbans would be my picks to develop alongside Itoje.

I don't agree about the need to find a bruiser though. Look at France beating the Boks with Woki and Flament at lock. It's not a necessity at all with the right game plan.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 29 Nov 2022, 2:53 am

Anyone else just genuinely pretty disinterested with England at the moment? I watch the games with little enthusiasm and much prefer the club game. It wasn't always like that but just since 2019 we seem to be devoid of ideas except trying to beat up teams and running an attack that looks like most of the backs have never met.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 29 Nov 2022, 7:03 am

yappysnap wrote:Anyone else just genuinely pretty disinterested with England at the moment? I watch the games with little enthusiasm and much prefer the club game.
The last two games started around 2-2:30am my time, and I bailed on both after the first half. It's probably good there are no more fixtures as there seems little incentive to tun on at all right now.

Most of this week's podcasts discuss the growing disengagement among England fans. Usually, even in a failed campaign, there are a couple of bright spots, with a new cap going well, or an old reliable showing his class. There reay has been precious little to celebrate. While Steward is still one of the first names on the sheet, he had a poor outing against the Boks. Scraping the barrel, you could say Ribbans took his chance, and Curry briefly showed 20 or so minutes of his best. On the whole, though, it feels like we know less about England than we did at the start of the season.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 8:26 am

Rugby served up through 2020 and onwards has been dire. Covid I think did have an impact on England more than most as they seemed to have more stringent rules than other teams but each passing game I've been less understanding as to why we're sticking bits and pieces players into positions rather than perhaps the more obvious options. As each player has been trialled and not really delivered it becomes more frustrating and you just wish they'd be braver. The post match comments have started to grind too. Sick of a promise of jam tomorrow, or analysts and commentators pointing to the view that Jones is deliberately holding stuff back for the WC. I honestly don't mind not winning everything in sight (but we should be close!) as long as I walk away entertained. I still remember falling short in the 6Ns in 2015, and being thoroughly elated.

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Post by mountain man Tue 29 Nov 2022, 8:32 am

Not all commentators are holding back now, Flatman on Prem highlights show now saying replace Jones immediately as still time before RWC. He's as sick of it as rest of us are.
I can do without every game being entertaining as long as England win a few(obvs prefer if every match was fantastic but that's never going to happen). Now though it's dire rugby coupled with losing. Worst of both worlds.

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Post by Geordie Tue 29 Nov 2022, 9:01 am

king_carlos wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Finding bruisers is one thing, finding bruisers that can play and think rugby is something else.

They don't have to be an Einstein, but they do have to know when to use the physicality and when not to.

To me we have one currently in Launchbury. Apart from the demise of Wasps what sort of form was he in anyway? A true class heavyweight with leadership credentials.
I was a huge Launchbury fan for a long time but his form declined a lot after the injuries. For an international class lock he was always a very weak lineout jumper. That meant his loose work needed to make up for it. The carrying, offloading, support lines and breakdown work did that for a long time. After the injuries not so much IMO. He was far less prominent in the loose and still a very weak jumper. His defensive maul work has remained absolutely terrific, he's one of the best around there. When I saw him more recently with Wasps he didn't stand out that much at Prem level though. It pains me to say it about a previous favourite but the injuries took a toll. Hopefully after a bit of a break and lighter season in Japan he might rediscover his best with Quins.

Tizard, Chessum and Ribbans would be my picks to develop alongside Itoje.

I don't agree about the need to find a bruiser though. Look at France beating the Boks with Woki and Flament at lock. It's not a necessity at all with the right game plan.

Well, we'll agree to disagree to a point. As WPI rightly corrected me above...we're missing some grunt WITH INTELLIGENCE.

Hill is clearly not the answer. Ribbans certainly could be the answer...I have no idea why Jones has ignored him for so long.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 9:04 am

mountain man wrote:Not all commentators are holding back now, Flatman on Prem highlights show now saying replace Jones immediately as still time before RWC. He's as sick of it as rest of us are.
I can do without every game being entertaining as long as England win a few(obvs prefer if every match was fantastic but that's never going to happen). Now though it's dire rugby coupled with losing. Worst of both worlds.

That's always the thing with prioritising wins over entertainment, there's going to be more games where you're just fed up.

People like Flatman going against Jones is telling for me. I think he's a great analyst and commentator but will always do so positively.

He was pretty much against getting rid of Jones earlier in the year as there were no obvious replacements, think there is now personally. These comments from his too hit hard..


“I don’t see progress, I don’t believe that (RFU) statement.

“There are a couple key areas that include by picking different players.

“Watching the game on Saturday, England were run ragged by the ruck speed....

“... (they) weren’t going that hard at the breakdown, they were keeping as many lads on their feet as they could. England’s ruck speed and getting the ball away was visibly slower than ...(them).

“It makes a defensive teams day easier. There is a personnel issue there. Pick people in their best positions and pick the best players.”


I've taken the teams name out as it could be about SA, NZ or Argentina; while it was about France in the 6Ns.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:02 am

yappysnap wrote:Anyone else just genuinely pretty disinterested with England at the moment? I watch the games with little enthusiasm and much prefer the club game. It wasn't always like that but just since 2019 we seem to be devoid of ideas except trying to beat up teams and running an attack that looks like most of the backs have never met.

Yes.

I am old enough to have watched England teams way way back when we were genuinely behind some of the other teams in Europe. I remember watching England play France when we brought in a group of new players. Someone called Rob Andrew comes to mind) and we drew against France 9-9 with one French try wrecked when somebody knocked the ball out of the players hands after he'd crossed the line. The rugby wasn't great but it was exciting, because it felt like the start of something (and it was).

I can barely watch England at the moment. The players are there. Itoje is up there with the best locks we have ever produced. Curry could also be one of the greats and there is some real talent around or coming through - but everything seems so predictable and half hearted. We seem beaten before we get on the pitch.

As I have said before, Jones was terrific when he first took over. Tactically we seemed so much better. Things seem to have got very stale now and I can't see how he can turn it around.

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Post by Oakdene Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:27 am

yappysnap wrote:Anyone else just genuinely pretty disinterested with England at the moment? I watch the games with little enthusiasm and much prefer the club game. It wasn't always like that but just since 2019 we seem to be devoid of ideas except trying to beat up teams and running an attack that looks like most of the backs have never met.

If it helps, I am very much that way with the Welsh side & to be honest with the regions too. Used to go up to PYS quite regularly but haven't been in 2 years now.

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Post by Heaf Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:34 am

I can trump all of the above - I support England and London Irish Sad - Although I suppose at least LI are entertaining at times ...

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Post by Oakdene Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:35 am

Heaf wrote:I can trump all of the above - I support England and London Irish Sad - Although I suppose at least LI are entertaining at times ...

Sorry there's no way you can have it worse than me supporting Wales & the Scarlets.

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Post by Geordie Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:48 am

Heaf wrote:I can trump all of the above - I support England and London Irish Sad - Although I suppose at least LI are entertaining at times ...

And i cant even trump you this time... Shocked

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Post by Scottrf Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:48 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Not all commentators are holding back now, Flatman on Prem highlights show now saying replace Jones immediately as still time before RWC. He's as sick of it as rest of us are.
I can do without every game being entertaining as long as England win a few(obvs prefer if every match was fantastic but that's never going to happen). Now though it's dire rugby coupled with losing. Worst of both worlds.

That's always the thing with prioritising wins over entertainment, there's going to be more games where you're just fed up.

People like Flatman going against Jones is telling for me. I think he's a great analyst and commentator but will always do so positively.

He was pretty much against getting rid of Jones earlier in the year as there were no obvious replacements, think there is now personally. These comments from his too hit hard..


“I don’t see progress, I don’t believe that (RFU) statement.

“There are a couple key areas that include by picking different players.

“Watching the game on Saturday, England were run ragged by the ruck speed....

“... (they) weren’t going that hard at the breakdown, they were keeping as many lads on their feet as they could. England’s ruck speed and getting the ball away was visibly slower than ...(them).

“It makes a defensive teams day easier. There is a personnel issue there. Pick people in their best positions and pick the best players.”


I've taken the teams name out as it could be about SA, NZ or Argentina; while it was about France in the 6Ns.
The attacking ruck speed issue is a change in tactic, keeping players in the attacking line.

England were terrible in the 6 Nations before the previous World Cup. It would be madness to replace Jones right now, less than a year out from the World Cup. We are not that far off the pace, and that's with quite a lot of players off form.

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Post by TJ Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:54 am

Oakdene wrote:
Heaf wrote:I can trump all of the above - I support England and London Irish Sad - Although I suppose at least LI are entertaining at times ...

Sorry there's no way you can have it worse than me supporting Wales & the Scarlets.

Scotland and Edinburgh?  Thats me.  they give you a glimmer of hope then its dashed into bitter tears.  the really upsetting thing is I was born in the west country.  I could have been a Bath and England fan and won a few things but no - my parents moved to Scotland.  40 years of pain

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 11:15 am

Scottrf wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Not all commentators are holding back now, Flatman on Prem highlights show now saying replace Jones immediately as still time before RWC. He's as sick of it as rest of us are.
I can do without every game being entertaining as long as England win a few(obvs prefer if every match was fantastic but that's never going to happen). Now though it's dire rugby coupled with losing. Worst of both worlds.

That's always the thing with prioritising wins over entertainment, there's going to be more games where you're just fed up.

People like Flatman going against Jones is telling for me. I think he's a great analyst and commentator but will always do so positively.

He was pretty much against getting rid of Jones earlier in the year as there were no obvious replacements, think there is now personally. These comments from his too hit hard..


“I don’t see progress, I don’t believe that (RFU) statement.

“There are a couple key areas that include by picking different players.

“Watching the game on Saturday, England were run ragged by the ruck speed....

“... (they) weren’t going that hard at the breakdown, they were keeping as many lads on their feet as they could. England’s ruck speed and getting the ball away was visibly slower than ...(them).

“It makes a defensive teams day easier. There is a personnel issue there. Pick people in their best positions and pick the best players.”


I've taken the teams name out as it could be about SA, NZ or Argentina; while it was about France in the 6Ns.
The attacking ruck speed issue is a change in tactic, keeping players in the attacking line.

England were terrible in the 6 Nations before the previous World Cup. It would be madness to replace Jones right now, less than a year out from the World Cup. We are not that far off the pace, and that's with quite a lot of players off form.

Rubbish rugby and a string of defeats. Like I said the promise of jam tomorrow doesn't hold up. There are good coaches available now having already lost the opportunity of Edwards due to dithering. I hate this view of playing in 4 year cycles, and also we're miles off the pace.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 29 Nov 2022, 11:21 am

The stats discussion on Rugby Tonight was quite illuminating, I thought. For most of the series, England were near the top of all the teams on most attacking stats, but falling behind on efficiency in the red zone. Fair enough - that's usually a sign of a team that haven't played together much (they haven't) and easily fixable.

The stats in the SA game were glaringly different, but the root cause seems to have been ruck speed, which was very near the bottom of all teams involved. However good the backline is, they're not going to be able to create much if the defence is always set - England's style is based on forcing a defence to make choices, which is much hard to do if they're all in position.

I think that's a pure selection issue: England had a back five in which only two players (Curry and Itoje) had any real reputation as breakdown operators. Some of that is down to injury - Lawes and Dombrandt were unavailable at the start (though Eddie could have called the latter up) - but a lot of it is down to picking Billy at 8 and locks (who aren't Lawes) at 6 and expecting them to do the job that Underhill has been doing.

Eddie seems to be trying to do two incompatible things at once: in his pack he seems to want a mobile, ball carrying front row and is offsetting that with a slow and heavyweight back five. In his backs, he seems to want a fluid, instinctive attack with lots of options, and actually that is working better than people give it credit - but it's not going to win games if it can't get quick ball.

Most people seem to be thinking that changing the Smith / Farrell axis is the key to fixing things. I think the issue lies in the pack, who are individually good players but collectively are unbalanced and underpowered at both the scrum and the breakdown.
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Post by Scottrf Tue 29 Nov 2022, 11:22 am

We are not miles off the pace. Some of the attacking play has been fantastic and it's a new system. A draw vs NZ. 14 points from SA, where they should have had one, maybe two tries dissallowed.

Hasn't been plain sailing, but wasn't at this point in the last cycle.

It's too late now, if we wanted to replace Jones it should have been at least a year ago. They can't have just a Six Nations to bring in their system for a World Cup. No time to bring in new players and no time to warm up to a new gameplan.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 11:25 am

Scottrf wrote:We are not miles off the pace. A draw vs NZ. 14 points from SA, where they should have had one, maybe two tries dissallowed.

Hasn't been plain sailing, but wasn't at this point in the last cycle.

It's too late now, if we wanted to replace Jones it should have been at least a year ago. They can't have just a Six Nations to bring in their system for a World Cup. No time to bring in new players and no time to warm up to a new gameplan.

Did you watch the actual games?If it's counted as too late now to develop for a tournament 2 away then realistically we're in store for rubbish rugby until the end of the summer tours of 2024...Get shot now. WC isnt the be all and end all.

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Post by Scottrf Tue 29 Nov 2022, 11:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:We are not miles off the pace. A draw vs NZ. 14 points from SA, where they should have had one, maybe two tries dissallowed.

Hasn't been plain sailing, but wasn't at this point in the last cycle.

It's too late now, if we wanted to replace Jones it should have been at least a year ago. They can't have just a Six Nations to bring in their system for a World Cup. No time to bring in new players and no time to warm up to a new gameplan.

Did you watch the actual games?If it's counted as too late now to develop for a tournament 2 away then realistically we're in store for rubbish rugby until the end of the summer tours of 2024...Get shot now. WC isnt the be all and end all.
World Cup is the be all and end all, especially if it's within a year. Who talks about our 2011 6 Nations win compared to 2003...

I watched us. Yes some poor rugby, but a lot of out of form players - which is a good thing, if we were losing with all players at their best it would be a worry. Also, some players are penalty magnets but probably wont be in the team next year. But it's small increments to where we would be truly competitive against the best teams.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 11:37 am

Scottrf wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:We are not miles off the pace. A draw vs NZ. 14 points from SA, where they should have had one, maybe two tries dissallowed.

Hasn't been plain sailing, but wasn't at this point in the last cycle.

It's too late now, if we wanted to replace Jones it should have been at least a year ago. They can't have just a Six Nations to bring in their system for a World Cup. No time to bring in new players and no time to warm up to a new gameplan.

Did you watch the actual games?If it's counted as too late now to develop for a tournament 2 away then realistically we're in store for rubbish rugby until the end of the summer tours of 2024...Get shot now. WC isnt the be all and end all.
World Cup is the be all and end all, especially if it's within a year. Who talks about our 2011 6 Nations win compared to 2003...

I watched us. Yes some poor rugby, but a lot of out of form players - which is a good thing, if we were losing with all players at their best it would be a worry. Also, some players are penalty magnets but probably wont be in the team next year. But it's small increments to where we would be truly competitive against the best teams.

Ah fair enough then, we just differ on what we want. I don't accept that since 2019, 2020 at a push is acceptable.

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Post by Geordie Tue 29 Nov 2022, 11:55 am

Poorfour wrote:The stats discussion on Rugby Tonight was quite illuminating, I thought. For most of the series, England were near the top of all the teams on most attacking stats, but falling behind on efficiency in the red zone. Fair enough - that's usually a sign of a team that haven't played together much (they haven't) and easily fixable.

The stats in the SA game were glaringly different, but the root cause seems to have been ruck speed, which was very near the bottom of all teams involved. However good the backline is, they're not going to be able to create much if the defence is always set - England's style is based on forcing a defence to make choices, which is much hard to do if they're all in position.

I think that's a pure selection issue: England had a back five in which only two players (Curry and Itoje) had any real reputation as breakdown operators. Some of that is down to injury - Lawes and Dombrandt were unavailable at the start (though Eddie could have called the latter up) - but a lot of it is down to picking Billy at 8 and locks (who aren't Lawes) at 6 and expecting them to do the job that Underhill has been doing.

Eddie seems to be trying to do two incompatible things at once: in his pack he seems to want a mobile, ball carrying front row and is offsetting that with a slow and heavyweight back five. In his backs, he seems to want a fluid, instinctive attack with lots of options, and actually that is working better than people give it credit - but it's not going to win games if it can't get quick ball.

Most people seem to be thinking that changing the Smith / Farrell axis is the key to fixing things. I think the issue lies in the pack, who are individually good players but collectively are unbalanced and underpowered at both the scrum and the breakdown.

And yet the master jack Willis got 19 mins in 2 games over the whole series??

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Post by Scottrf Tue 29 Nov 2022, 12:00 pm

Geordie wrote:And yet the master jack Willis got 19 mins in 2 games over the whole series??
Yeah this is bizarre selection really. Can only imagine we aren't looking to target defensive rucks. I really think World Rugby need to sort attacking teams going off their feet to clear out. It's really spoilt them as a proper competition.

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Post by Collapse2005 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 12:09 pm

Rassie Erasmus only needed a year to win the world cup with SA. Getting an easy draw has been key to SAs last two RWC sucesses. England have an easy draw, they just need a coach who isnt a total egomaniac and they will be there or thereabouts.

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Post by Scottrf Tue 29 Nov 2022, 12:14 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Rassie Erasmus only needed a year to win the world cup with SA. Getting an easy draw has been key to SAs last two RWC sucesses. England have an easy draw, they just need a coach who isnt a total egomaniac and they will be there or thereabouts.
18 Months and 19 matches.

If someone took over England now they'd have 9 months and 5 matches. Not close to the same.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 12:56 pm

So no one could do better with England at the world cup, but could anyone do worse?! By my reckoning it's the second year on the bounce that England haven't met the minimum standards/targets set by the RFU as well. Think they wanted 80% of the matches won and we've had a mighty 41%, not counting the Baa Baas. That and it's been shocking to watch. Had Jones now the best job in the world, no come backs until the end of his contract?! I think he's gone by the end of this review though, I think the review is a farce too, the RFU will already be discussing with his successor when he can start.

It's 9 games to the WC too.

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Post by Scottrf Tue 29 Nov 2022, 1:07 pm

Oh you're right, there are the warm up matches too. Still personally think the timing is wrong.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 29 Nov 2022, 1:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So no one could do better with England at the world cup, but could anyone do worse?! By my reckoning it's the second year on the bounce that England haven't met the minimum standards/targets set by the RFU as well. Think they wanted 80% of the matches won and we've had a mighty 41%, not counting the Baa Baas. That and it's been shocking to watch. Had Jones now the best job in the world, no come backs until the end of his contract?! I think he's gone by the end of this review though, I think the review is a farce too, the RFU will already be discussing with his successor when he can start.

It's 9 games to the WC too.

That might be the crux of the problem for the RFU though. Of their alleged three man shortlist I'd be very surprised if Borthwick left mid season, I'd be surprised if O'Gara left mid season also though his recent disciplinary issues are a small cloud over him and that leaves Robertson who has a contract until 2024 which has reportedly only got a get out if he doesn't get the AB job post world cup.

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