England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

And Ben Earl. Been on fire for Saracens and as you say Curry been off the pace for a few games now.
Then again we could all name around 5-6 players who we think should be in.

Warren Gatland to England seems to be gathering pace… I’d just stick with Eddie until his contract is up. He’s a good coach and will turn it around. I don’t view appointing Gatland as a backwards step, I just don’t see the need.

Exactly....we have our favorites...so when someones not playing out their skin we feel justified in complaining.

However there are a few cases where a players performance just raises questions about his absense or inclusion.

Anyway...we have one year left...i have no doubts Eddie will be in charge for the WC...but i think even he will be under no illusions that come the 6n he needs the team to start performing...

mikey_dragon wrote:Warren Gatland to England seems to be gathering pace… I’d just stick with Eddie until his contract is up. He’s a good coach and will turn it around. I don’t view appointing Gatland as a backwards step, I just don’t see the need.

Cant see it to be honest.

In the worst case, the RFU just tell Eddie stop this "wondergame " idea, get back to basics and just pick the best players...not the best players for this wonder game.

But the 6n...his team MUST be performing well.

And Arundell is probably out for the 6Ns. Seemed a little like Jones was waiting for him to come back and so what's the point in developing another player like Radwan or Murely etc. Just seems like its reinforcing a bad decision.

Geordie wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Warren Gatland to England seems to be gathering pace… I’d just stick with Eddie until his contract is up. He’s a good coach and will turn it around. I don’t view appointing Gatland as a backwards step, I just don’t see the need.

Cant see it to be honest.

In the worst case, the RFU just tell Eddie stop this "wondergame " idea, get back to basics and just pick the best players...not the best players for this wonder game.

But the 6n...his team MUST be performing well.

Just seen a few more reporting on it as of today, could all be bluff. There’s no way Eddie would let someone else pick the team. I think he needs to amend back-row and midfield slightly, that would help fix a few issues.

2nd row. Back row. Midfield and wings need addressing. Oh and a front row to compete with SA etc.

Other than that we're all good.

mountain man wrote:2nd row. Back row. Midfield and wings need addressing. Oh and a front row to compete with SA etc.

Other than that we're all good.

Aren't we forgetting half backs, Youngs still needs retiring.

Shows how good Marcus Smith is then, that he can carry all of those useless lumps to a draw with NZ.

LCD is going to play for Montpellier after the World Cup. Thought he would be one of the stalwarts of the next couple of years at least. Is George likely to stick around? If not we have a sizeable hole to fill at hooker ( )

I think Eddie Jones at this point knows that unless the wheels come completely off, all the RFU can do in their reviews is: "Roar their terrible roars and gnash their terrible teeth and roll their terrible eyes and show their terrible claws", express disappointment, and do nothing.

Scottrf wrote:Shows how good Marcus Smith is then, that he can carry all of those useless lumps to a draw with NZ.

Makes a change for England carrying him.

He was very good in that game but so were the much maligned Youngs and Farrell.

I don't think England are necessarily in a bad place but neither are they in a good one. Something has to give somewhere but unless the RFU show a commitment to loosening the purse strings and acquiring the best coaching staff for the job (as they did in the build up to 2019) then I don't think we'll see much change.

BamBam wrote:LCD is going to play for Montpellier after the World Cup. Thought he would be one of the stalwarts of the next couple of years at least. Is George likely to stick around? If not we have a sizeable hole to fill at hooker ( )

Apparently Montpellier have offered over £300k a year. That's a lot of money for a hooker (tehe) in the current market but also shows how highly rated LCD is despite the recent dip in form from his 2020/21 peak. He'd be a big loss and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he made the 2025 Lions tour despite being out of England contention.

It should be possible for LCD to find form again but he's (like so many others) playing dreadfully at the moment. Pretty much since that god damn awful moment against Scotland he's been all over the place. His throwing in this set of games was as poor as when he first came into Exeter s squad.

So we have a year to get Blamire up to standard, keep Jamie George going and really bring through the next gneration of hookers....who are...??

Well id put Ollie Fletcher in there for sure...i think he'll be our (Falcons) starting hooker by then...over taking Blamire and McGuigan...

How is Sam Riley developing? Not a monster but looked very good at U20

What about Alfie Barbaery?

lostinwales wrote:How is Sam Riley developing? Not a monster but looked very good at U20

Riley is developing nicely but at Quins the clear first choice hooker is Jack Walker (who has a decent shout as an England contender) and is a couple of years behind Jack Musk and George Head, who are both reliable backup to Walker but not yet setting the world alight.

I think props more of a concern than hookers. Yes 2nd row play big part in scrum as well but England front row struggled big time in autumn and can't see how improvements going to be made. I doubt if Eng scrum coach telling Genge, Sinckler etc anything new that they don't know from clubs. So is it just technique or is it just not as powerful as some other nations.

mountain man wrote:I think props more of a concern than hookers. Yes 2nd row play big part in scrum as well but England front row struggled big time in autumn and can't see how improvements going to be made. I doubt if Eng scrum coach telling Genge, Sinckler etc anything new that they don't know from clubs. So is it just technique or is it just not as powerful as some other nations.

The scrum coach can make a massive difference, though. Adam Jones has massively improved the performance of Quins' stock of props; meanwhile Sinckler has lost form since moving to Bristol and out from under Jones's coaching. I think the difference that a really good scrum coach makes is in helping props to understand the problems that opponents might pose them and how to counter each one, and there's probably also something about tailoring their training to develop strength in the right places.

The overall standard of scrum coaching has improved over the last decade - it used to be a good rule of thumb that a prop changing clubs would take at least two full preseasons to be integrated into a new front row, and that's no longer the case. But the step up to international level is still significant and very few young props manage to keep their ball carrying at their youthful level as they adapt their training to the higher demands of an international scrum.

In the long term, I think there are a decent number of young props out there with international potential. The challenge right now is who are the contenders for the RWC squad? Eddie seems to have dropped Marler, Sinckler and Stuart are injured, Mako continues to be vulnerable in the scrum. How do they get the scrum right in the next 2 months?

Yes but we're not talking about 20 year olds here, the Eng props are all very experienced club and Int players. I find it hard to believe it's just down to Eng scrum coach. They should be good enough to sort it out. Once on field and match started its up to players. As I've said before, is it just a case that other teams are better?

When you look at is as a whole though these players have played very well at international level before but have been pretty poor since the start of 2020 even when we were still winning. Now we look lost at restarts. At scrums. At lineouts. At mauls. At the breakdown. In attack. Its a fundamental coaching issue, or a lack of buy in.

Options around the league for immediate fixes

Tighthead:
Sinkler - Injured
Stuart - Injured
Colliier - Is he injured?
Painter
Heyes
Paul Hill
Trevor Davison - Can cover both

Loosehead:
Marler - cant make up his mind if hes available or not.
West
Brocklebank
Genge
Obano - Injured?
Mako
Goodricke Clark
Rodd

Im sure im missing a few but i think Loosehead is a lot more healthy than TH...

Collier is injured, probably til sometime next year.
Marler is available but has been told by Eddie he's surplus to requirements.

Chris Ashton is very forthright in his talk with Andy Goode for the Rugby Pass podcast. I have not bothered with the bits about his return from France, but just picked the bits relevant to Jones and his training methods.

"The story about Ashton and the sombre ending to his England career emerged on this week’s Rugby Pod show when co-host Andy Goode was asked if he thought head coach Jones has lost the dressing room after last weekend’s loss to South Africa left them with just five wins in a dozen games during 2022.

The story about Ashton and the sombre ending to his England career emerged on this week’s Rugby Pod show when co-host Andy Goode was asked if he thought head coach Jones has lost the dressing room after last weekend’s loss to South Africa left them with just five wins in a dozen games during 2022."

“What he [Jones] does is rule on fear,” Goode began. “There are a lot of players in the squad that are fearful of making mistakes and it comes out in how they play. Has he lost the dressing room? Players aren’t going to come out and say that openly. He has got (Owen) Farrell as his sort of right-hand man. Farrell obviously is a very, very strong character in terms of how he dictates things in that squad, which is a very positive thing at times. But it’s like every coach, no one is going to come out and say anything bad about the coach until the coach is gone.

“He said it was brutal, it was like ridiculous on him, the body, his family and everything and he said he wasn’t enjoying it so he didn’t want to play for England again. If that doesn’t speak volumes. Everyone should be going down to England camp as hungry as you can be to want to pull on an England jersey and perform and try and take England to as high a place as you can."

“Next year there is a Six Nations and a World Cup. I don’t reckon they have got that (hunger). Of course, they want to win but have they got that desire to go all the way for Eddie Jones? I don’t know, it doesn’t look like it in the performances at the minute.”

Seems to confirm a lot of what rumours have been circulating about the Jones training regime and how the players feel and this was a few years ago, the slow deterioration over this time might have something to do with the way the players feel.

A season or so ago it seemed Jones was beasting the Eng players in training to and beyond breaking point. Far more players were getting injured with Eng than any other nation. Could just be unlucky but more likely method. However, it seems that has not been case for a year or so.
I don't doubt given what we see of him and hear that Jones is a divisive character, whether this makes him unsuitable as a coach only the players really know. Some I suspect love him and others hate him, don't suppose there's many in middle.

So. O'Gara has ruled himself out, shame.
Decision middle next week on Jones.

Jones isnt going anywhere

With props in the international game my suspicion is that refs are better at picking up boring in. pulling down etc than they used to be. so a player who relied on trickery to gain the upper hand does less well in the international game than one who has good technique.

Again IMO England props used to get away with boring in - they no longer do. having to push straight makes them less effective. Mako is a classic example to me

But i was a back and two generations ago so what do I know?

And it's only English props that cheat at scrums of course so makes sense.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And it's only English props that cheat at scrums of course so makes sense.

Not at all. I just think that this might be the issue with Mako for example. I didn't say it only effects the English props - just giving a possible reason

Well in fairness he does tend to bore his face into the ground whenever scrummaging.

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And it's only English props that cheat at scrums of course so makes sense.

Not at all.  I just think that this might be the issue with Mako for example.  I didn't say it only effects the English props - just giving a possible reason

Just say Vunipola is a rubbish scrummager then and you won't have much argument. Not so much that he turns in like, he can't keep the scrum up let alone drive anywhere.

O'Shea who is reviewing Jones would possibly be the interim coach if the rfu can't get their guy to start immediately -alex Bywater

Do LHs generally bore in? THs certainly try to as it puts pressure on the opposition hooker and tries to isolate the LH causing them lose their bind and splinter off which can lead to an easy pen call for the reg.

If a LH bores in they'd basically just be forcing the opposition TH to drive into the hooker which is what most THs fancy doing anyway?

When LHs get up to funny business it's usually 'stepping out' as it's sometimes referred to. Which effectively means moving slightly to the left on the hit to change the THs angle then trying to drive round the outside of them causing the scrum to wheel rapidly on that side. When done right the rapid change in angle of the scrum makes it very hard for the second rows, hence back row behind them, to stay aligned behind the TH. Genge was accused of this against Ireland last year. IMO it was a fair accusation as well as several of the scrums England were awarded were wheeling in a way you only really see in that scenario. Only cheating if you get caught and all that though...

I tend to think THs get away with less when it comes to angles in the scrum at the moment as it allows pressure to be put on the hooker but THs can get away with hitting and chasing more easily. Whereas refs aren't as vigilant about LHs scrummaging angles but are very stringent on them hitting and chasing as that's easier to see from a LH for the simple fact they're on the outside of the scrum.

Because of the offset stagger of the front rows it is much easier to observe a LH boring in.

TH because of his position of binding between the opposition LH and Hooker it is less obvious if they bore in.

Personally I found it easier to dominate a TH by getting my outside shoulder square and driving underneath his chest by getting his shoulder above vertical.

A tactic I don't see anymore, haven't for years.

The achilles heal of my tactic was shorter TH's, impossible to get low enough to drive under them.

But then I played rugby in an era where scrums were set without the referee calls of crouch, bind and set.

Interesting that BBC report that Borthwick is their preferred long term option with a possibility of him joining in June but no earlier. So he could theoretically be in place for the RWC.

The possibility of Jones working side by side with his successor has been proposed before. Could we see Borthwick almost consulting during the Six Nations then taking over in the summer?

Personally I think it's too early in Borthwick's career for an international head coach role. When it comes to attack in particular there is a way to go in building a game plan.

Old Man wrote:Because of the offset stagger of the front rows it is much easier to observe a LH boring in.

TH because of his position of binding between the opposition LH and Hooker it is less obvious if they bore in.

Personally I found it easier to dominate a TH by getting my outside shoulder square and driving underneath his chest by getting his shoulder above vertical.

A tactic I don't see anymore, haven't for years.

The achilles heal of my tactic was shorter TH's, impossible to get low enough to drive under them.

But then I played rugby in an era where scrums were set without the referee calls of crouch, bind and set.

Those arts aren’t entirely dead - but they have evolved. Ms Poorfour plays TH, despite being nearly 5’10”. I was reffing her at a recent tournament and suddenly found that the scrum was being set somewhere near my knees. At the end of the game, I asked her what she was doing and she said “Their scrum looked quite good so I decided to set it lower.” Even big THs can set low these days - and on Sunday I plan to do a “scrum limbo” as a training session.

Four headlines from today's papers.  Anyone seriously believe Eddie Jones will be axed?    Just a slap on the wrist and an admonishment to be better.

The Guardian wrote:Eddie Jones’ future as England head coach to be decided next week
Review into dismal autumn series concludes Tuesday
Jones has presided over England’s worst year since 2008

The Times wrote:Eddie Jones to discover fate on Tuesday – with Warren Gatland frontrunner to replace him
Ronan O’Gara ruled himself out of succeeding the Australian as England head coach

The Telegraph wrote:Exclusive: RFU consider sacking Eddie Jones and hiring Steve Borthwick early next week
Telegraph Sport understands Jones will meet with RFU chief executive Bill Sweeney next week ahead of a full board meeting on Tuesday

Daily Mail wrote:Male Sexual Enhancement Proven in Lab Study by Voting Conservative

Lol.

Smith is out to the new year now. Could be a real chance for Fin Smith if he continues his start for Northampton, or the likes of Kelly.

The Times are sure that Gatland will be the short term successor.

The Telegraph think it will be Borthwick.

Suggests that different factions from the RFU are briefing the media behind closed doors. My guess is that Jones will go though.

Out of those 3 I think I'd prefer Jones to stay. There would be no prospect of better rugby, maybe an initial bounce and some tweaks to whose in the squad but little more.

king_carlos wrote:The Times are sure that Gatland will be the short term successor.

The Telegraph think it will be Borthwick.

Suggests that different factions from the RFU are briefing the media behind closed doors. My guess is that Jones will go though.

It hasn't been pleasant to see this playing out. The Times seems to be getting news leaks, and The Telegraph has been going all out to brief against Jones. It's quite possible the RFU, while conducting talks with potential post-World Cup successors to Jones, has asked about more immediate availability. There could be three potential scenarios

1. RFU decides to stick with Jones but wants to name his successor asap.
2. RFU ditches Jones but preferred coaching candidate isn't available until after the World Cup. An interim coaching set up muddles through or someone like Gatland gets a fill-in contract.
3. RFU ditches Jones, and a long term alternative takes over immediately

Can't see anything other than Jones staying but given a severe ..."sort it out!"

Geordie wrote:Can't see anything other than Jones staying but given a severe ..."sort it out!"

I agree. I'm not getting caught up in the 'Eddie's gone' business. I do think the media flurry is almost funny and it apears - well, coordinated or orchistrated. But, for some reason it doesn't feel like a 'where's there is smoke there is fire' situation. Just a media frenzy going after a defenceless coach (get what I did here?). I am sure Eddie will receive a severe remonstration and will have to submit to a few days in the stocks at Southwark.

From the so-called candidates for the England job the only one which I think could make a difference for this coming RWC only would be Gatland. He is smart, focuses on fundamentals, and can manage in a cauldron.

I see McGuigan and Radwan looking like off to Exeter next season....that'll replace LCD...ans Radwan might get a stsrt for England

Geordie wrote:I see McGuigan and Radwan looking like off to Exeter next season....that'll replace LCD...ans Radwan might get a stsrt for England

Nowell is also rumoured to be going to France so Radwan could be his replacement.

Would mean that Blamire would finally get regular starts which would benefit both him and England.

He will Sam...ironically he'll be challenged by young Ollie Fletcher..son of Jon who is a physical hooker who is very strong at the core hooking skills. England u20...big unit.

We also have Iwan Stephens and Nathan Greenwood the next young blistering flyer off the conveyor belt coming through...so the crazy thing is we can actually replace Radwan with insane pace.
Going to be very interesting.

If Jones limps on to the 6Ns that tournament will be very interesting. The RFU will want immediate improvements but given the main reason to keep him is this insane infatuation with the WC you're leaving even less time for any successor.