England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

I'm a bit surprised that Chiefs are going for McGuigan. I've rated McGuigan since he was at Tigers, his breakdown work has always been a big plus for a hooker and his darts are usually good. He is small for a hooker though and as such not that physical. Rugby's laughably inaccurate stats on height and weight mean he's variously listed from 6'0" to 5'9" but having stood close to him, seen him up close alongside other players I definitely think he's closer to the latter. Chiefs tend to go for very physical forwards as a whole.

It's why I do wonder whether he can be a long term international hooker too. Smaller hookers are around. Bongi Mbonambi for instance is a similar height and not the heaviest but his set-piece is absolutely fantastic. He's one of the best in the world in scrum and line-out.

I said precisely the same about Dolly when picked I'd point out before any accusation of just not rating a player that moved on from Tigers are made! 

king_carlos wrote:I'm a bit surprised that Chiefs are going for McGuigan. I've rated McGuigan since he was at Tigers, his breakdown work has always been a big plus for a hooker and his darts are usually good. He is small for a hooker though and as such not that physical. Rugby's laughably inaccurate stats on height and weight mean he's variously listed from 6'0" to 5'9" but having stood close to him, seen him up close alongside other players I definitely think he's closer to the latter. Chiefs tend to go for very physical forwards as a whole.

It's why I do wonder whether he can be a long term international hooker too. Smaller hookers are around. Bongi Mbonambi for instance is a similar height and not the heaviest but his set-piece is absolutely fantastic. He's one of the best in the world in scrum and line-out.

I said precisely the same about Dolly when picked I'd point out before any accusation of just not rating a player that moved on from Tigers are made! 

I'm in the same boat with McGuigan who is nowhere near the stats that are rolled out. He's a great little hooker, but just lacks that physicality to step up imo and it's a strange move to Exeter.

I wouldn't be too disappointed to see him go as I think Blamire has more about him and has a higher potential ceiling for club and country......Radwan would be different, I'd be very sad to see him go, but perhaps he may get more chance with England on a bigger stage (sad to say).

Odd then McGuigan scores so many tries and Flats been calling for him to be picked for England for last couple seasons.
Yes a lot of his tries at back of a driving maul but still has the physicality.
Guess time will tell.

As for Radwan, could be perfect move for him. More exposure and by then new coach be in or be in line who will hopefully give him more of a chance with Eng.

Hes 29 now though, unlikely to make it unless there's a big list of injuries.

mountain man wrote:Odd then McGuigan scores so many tries and Flats been calling for him to be picked for England for last couple seasons.
Yes a lot of his tries at back of a driving maul but still has the physicality.
Guess time will tell.

As for Radwan, could be perfect move for him. More exposure and by then new coach be in or be in line who will hopefully give him more of a chance with Eng.

He has a low center of gravity and is a good finisher around the fringes due to his size.

I've also seem him brushed aside by scrum halves in defence...hence why I think he'd struggle at higher levels. Great club player though....I imagine he'll be missed by many at Falcons.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:Odd then McGuigan scores so many tries and Flats been calling for him to be picked for England for last couple seasons.
Yes a lot of his tries at back of a driving maul but still has the physicality.
Guess time will tell.

As for Radwan, could be perfect move for him. More exposure and by then new coach be in or be in line who will hopefully give him more of a chance with Eng.

He has a low center of gravity and is a good finisher around the fringes due to his size.

I've also seem him brushed aside by scrum halves in defence...hence why I think he'd struggle at higher levels. Great club player though....I imagine he'll be missed by many at Falcons.

I wonder if Chiefs are looking at saving some money but gaining some more dynamism in the pack. They can also turn to Yeandle, Innard and Frost if they want more physicality. McGuigan's ability to pin ball through contact and ability to make a nuisance of himself at the breakdown would offer them something else whilst retaining the type of pack that would be considered a bit hefty in SA.

As much as I'd hate Gatland in a temporary role for England apparently Wales are looking at a similar thing for Dean Ryan.

Dean Ryan??? Surely not??

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Dean Ryan??? Surely not??

Is he still employed by the WRU? If so, he'd be a free bet. A bad bet, but free.

McGuigan is perfect for the Chiefs.
29 - highly experienced one of the best in the league by a mile, and not likely to make the England set up now...so will be available constantly.

Thats the type of players the chiefs have built themselves on.

Meanwhile Falcons develop Blamire, Ollie Fletcher and Charlie Smith, with Maddison a solid squad member...

Walder has said this is not his squad so I do expect changes...

Do people REALLY think Jones is going to be sacked....

Never in a million years!!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:Odd then McGuigan scores so many tries and Flats been calling for him to be picked for England for last couple seasons.
Yes a lot of his tries at back of a driving maul but still has the physicality.
Guess time will tell.

As for Radwan, could be perfect move for him. More exposure and by then new coach be in or be in line who will hopefully give him more of a chance with Eng.

He has a low center of gravity and is a good finisher around the fringes due to his size.

I've also seem him brushed aside by scrum halves in defence...hence why I think he'd struggle at higher levels. Great club player though....I imagine he'll be missed by many at Falcons.

I think Harry Thacker could be described in the same way - a proper dynamic player, but his size is ultimately going to limit his international options.
They said the same about Lee Mears, but that was a time when we had Andy Sheridan playing, which made up for size issues elsewhere.

So Sinckler out for 4 weeks and Marcus Smith out until "well in to January"

Does that affect the 6n?

Ford back in?
Farrell to 10 and Finn Smith back up?

After Ford's injury it was said he was out for 6 to 9 months, so reckon Smith will be back quicker. Smith the younger to come in as back up, Farrell to 10 and Kelly at 12 seems 1 of the more obvious things to do for whichever England coach there is.

I would like that actually 7.5

9 JVP
10 Farrell
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence

I know he's been hugely impressive over the years but I can't help thinking I'd rather we lost Farrell as I suspect the team would be more fluent without him.

Hes going nowhere till post WC at the earliest...get used it it lol

Is Kelly the new flavour of the month?

Eddie in early for his meeting.....doesn't bode well for him. Rumours Borthwick will be announced this afternoon.

We shall see.....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is Kelly the new flavour of the month?

Eddie in early for his meeting.....doesn't bode well for him. Rumours Borthwick will be announced this afternoon.

Depends what you mean by of the month...

He's back again so I'll be wanting him involved but I've mentioned him Ojomoh, Lawrence, Joseph and even Anyanwu quite a bit as midfielders who I would have liked to have had more caps by now.

And I'm still praying for Robertson.

Warren Gatland has replaced Wayne Pivac. Scott Robertson expected to sign with Wales post world cup.

mikey_dragon wrote:Warren Gatland has replaced Wayne Pivac. Scott Robertson expected to sign with Wales post world cup.

Good. I didn't want Gatland for England. Think that also signals Jones will stay on until RWC.

It's a good move by Wales I think.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is Kelly the new flavour of the month?

Eddie in early for his meeting.....doesn't bode well for him. Rumours Borthwick will be announced this afternoon.

Not really...he was the starting 12 for the team that won the title and has had a few injury problems recently which probably stopped him being involved with England.

Thank goodness we've dodged the Gatland bullet anyway.

Maybe we're getting Pivac??

According to the Sydney Morning Herald Jones has been sacked. Has this been reported in the UK too?

NZ papers saying same
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/130673293/england-parts-ways-with-eddie-jones-scott-robertson-looms-closer-to-wallabies-job

Geordie wrote:Maybe we're getting Pivac??

Only to wash the kit.

I believe England are getting Rob Howley.

Collapse2005 wrote:According to the Sydney Morning Herald Jones has been sacked. Has this been reported in the UK too?

NZ papers saying same
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/130673293/england-parts-ways-with-eddie-jones-scott-robertson-looms-closer-to-wallabies-job

Just being reported as it's been reported in Aus!

No smoke without a fire I spose

Robertson to Wallabies is a new one to me... Big call by RFU, but I guess it had to be done. It seems they want an Englishman in the job after some years without.

mikey_dragon wrote:Robertson to Wallabies is a new one to me... Big call by RFU, but I guess it had to be done. It seems they want an Englishman in the job after some years without.

Man, and I was just hearing that Robertson was going to Wales. Developments all the time!

mikey_dragon wrote:I believe England are getting Rob Howley.

I wouldn't bet on it....

Haha ouch

Im guessing Borthwick will be announced as England coach today. Happy for England and Borthwick. Jones was disrespecting the fans and the 6 nations, had to go.

has it been confirmed yet?

Geordie wrote:has it been confirmed yet?

No. Despite the rumours going round that Jones has been sacked and that there will be an announcement it was originally planned to release the result from the review tomorrow.

This is the SMH:

Eddie Jones will split with the RFU on Monday, his seven-year reign as England coach over just nine months before the World Cup in France.

He will go down in history as the most successful England coach in regards to wins and losses, with a 73 per cent win rate, a World Cup runner’s up medal, two Six Nations titles and one grand slam.

Steve Borthwick, Jones’ former right-hand man and premiership-winning coach of Leicester, is widely expected to replace him, though it is not clear on what terms.

The Englishman was the frontrunner to succeed Jones after the World Cup and interviewed for the role last month, so the RFU might have signed him on a multi-year deal.

While Australian sources might have got a scoop from Jones's camp that he's been given the hook, it's not clear how they would know Borthwick has been signed up. No reason the RFU would tell Jones. That suggests to me at least part of the story is speculation.

C'mon McCall! You know you want it.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:C'mon McCall! You know you want it.

I would be happy with him as one of the coaching team, but not in the top job until he's done at least one RWC cycle as part of a tier 1 coaching team or as head coach of a tier 2. That's the same criterion I'd apply to Rob Baxter or any other coach: international coaching is very different from club coaching, and very few coaches have succeeded in their first RWC cycle without having previously been part of a more experienced team. It might be acceptable to have a newbie head coach if they have an experienced mentor, but otherwise they need to cut their teeth somewhere before taking on the England job.

Stipulating that may leave the options quite slim.

Rugby Fan wrote:This is the SMH:

Eddie Jones will split with the RFU on Monday, his seven-year reign as England coach over just nine months before the World Cup in France.

He will go down in history as the most successful England coach in regards to wins and losses, with a 73 per cent win rate, a World Cup runner’s up medal, two Six Nations titles and one grand slam.

Steve Borthwick, Jones’ former right-hand man and premiership-winning coach of Leicester, is widely expected to replace him, though it is not clear on what terms.

The Englishman was the frontrunner to succeed Jones after the World Cup and interviewed for the role last month, so the RFU might have signed him on a multi-year deal.

While Australian sources might have got a scoop from Jones's camp that he's been given the hook, it's not clear how they would know Borthwick has been signed up. No reason the RFU would tell Jones. That suggests to me at least part of the story is speculation.

The most successful England coach about to get sacked, the results business is ruthless at times. Saying that, Jones benefitted from the work of McCall/Sarries a lot. I'm not sure why he's become a bit ignorant and stubborn in recent years, seems to be going back to the same Sarries players when there's better available. LCD and Marchant not being available for the next England coach through Jones' actions must be really annoying.

According to the Times one of Jones' senior coaches will resign if he's not removed. He's definitely going ain't he.

‘Considering resigning’ doesn’t really seem like a story.

They wrote a week ago Kerry was considering resigning. Do we get a constant update on his thought process.

Guess we won't find out for certain whether they'd follow it through seeing as Jones will be gone tomorrow.

Most papers now reporting now he's going to be sacked.

Borthwick is the favourite in these reports. If it is to be him hope he brings Sinfield and goes and gets Vesty.

Scottrf wrote:Stipulating that may leave the options quite slim.

Trivia question: when was the last time a first time coach has lifted the RWC trophy?
- Erasmus was part of the 2007 and 2011 SA coaching teams
- Hansen was Henry's deputy in 2011
- Henry got it in 2011 having failed (and nearly been sacked for it in 2007)
- White did it at the first attempt - but crucially had Jones on board
- Woodward did in 2003 having crashed out in 1999

So we're back to 1999, Rod Macqueen and the end of the amateur era before you find a coach who won it without prior experience of the tournament

If winning the RWC is important to you, then experience counts.

I was very keen to see the back of Eddie initially, but obviously I don't have the nerve to follow through with this and kind of hope the RFU keep him and instead get some better coaches around him.

The options to replace him don't fill me with joy, quite the opposite. It really feels like the Brian Ashton - Martin Johnson scenario all over again. I swear to god nothing changes.

If Eddie is ditched by the RFU, his inability to keep a stable coaching team around him will probably play a major role in the decision. Losing John Mitchell looks more and more like a turning point. While Cockerill is no shrinking violet, he's been uncharacteristically anonymous with England.

Rugby Fan wrote:If Eddie is ditched by the RFU, his inability to keep a stable coaching team around him will probably play a major role in the decision. Losing John Mitchell looks more and more like a turning point. While Cockerill is no shrinking violet, he's been uncharacteristically anonymous with England.

I agree the coaching carosel may have been a significant reason for the poor performance record. Likely also the selection process which we have given us some past thier prime or out of shape. Also EJ's attitude towards some people.
But ultinately the actual game play ain't humming and record stinks. For me, still unsure if the 'testicle deprived' at the RFU would pull the trigger on EJ. But Tuesday is the day, is that right?