England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Borthwick is the favourite in these reports. If it is to be him hope he brings Sinfield and goes and gets Vesty.

Rumours of Sinfield to Wales as Gat's assistant. That would make sense given Sinfield could slot into the role Edward's performed for Gat. I'm not saying Sinfield is yet at Edward's level as a coach. That will take years more experience. But he's from a similar mould.

Aled Walters would be the big one I'd hope Borthwick brings with him from Tigers. He's worked miracles with Tigers S&C. His reputation with the Boks leading into the last RWC was similar. A coach who gets fit players fitter and has a knack for getting crocked ones on the field more. His influence at Tigers has been invaluable.

Vesty is an obvious option as attack coach. Joe Shaw or Kevin Sorrell from Sarries would be an interesting options too as either would fit with Borthwick's style well.

In terms of defence coach if Sinfield is unavailable either Joe El Abd or Joe Worsley would be interesting. Borthwick worked well with Gustard previously too.

In terms of selection if Borthwick comes in I'll be very interested in:

TH - He clearly rates Cole higher than Heyes still and I'd argue Coley has been playing his best rugby since the neck injury.

Lock - Obviously he has a wealth of knowledge here. Who he goes for given a pick of the Prem options will be really interesting.

10/12 - Will he want two playmakers? If he wants one will it be Farrell, Smith or Ford at 10? Kelly could be an obvious option at 12. Tigers were also rumoured to be after Lawrence repeatedly whilst SB has been in charge.

Captain - Genge took Tigers to the Premiership title working alongside Borth.

Gone!

Thinking about sliding doors moment, if England had gone for broke in that last play against New Zealand, and somehow pulled off an unlikely win, you wonder if the RFU would be thinking of pressing the panic button, even if we had fallen on our faces against the Springboks.

At the moment would the RFU not have been better to keep Eddie but tell him to stop all the stupid "wonder game" idea and just get back to basics, pick the strongest players and try to win the 6n and do what ever they can in the WC?

Can you imagine the apathy/anger if Jones stayed on again with that sentiment though Geordie? We've had that since 2020 (that year tempered by wins along with rubbish rugby), pretty much after every set of games since we've heard it was Jones' fault (from the man himself) and that this time around we're going to get people off their seats, blah blah. Given last year he was set pretty clear targets again and has failed to meet them I really don't think he has any more time to borrow.

I could be wrong here but if the RFU do sack Eddie Jones, then surely it puts pressure on the RFU to prove they made the right choice.

How can they be sure who ever takes over will improve England performance in next years six nations and the RWC?

majesticimperialman wrote:I could be wrong here but if the RFU  do sack Eddie Jones, then surely it puts pressure on the RFU to prove they made the right choice.

How can they be sure who ever takes over will improve England performance  in next years six nations and the RWC?

Same could be said for any coach of any team though. Jones has had more than enough time.
That is the issue though, England get in Borthwick as rumoured and then finish mid table 6N. Won't know until it's tried.

Can only hope whoever gets job they at least get selection right. I've not heard or read anyone say Jones has. And drop the dead wood!

majesticimperialman wrote:I could be wrong here but if the RFU  do sack Eddie Jones, then surely it puts pressure on the RFU to prove they made the right choice.

How can they be sure who ever takes over will improve England performance  in next years six nations and the RWC?

The reason to sack Jones now, is unlikely to be because the RFU thinks a new man will have a good chance of winning the World Cup. It will likely be because they want to avoid risking another year of toxic rugby media coverage, until Jones throws the dice at the tournament next year. They may have concluded it is better to start rebuilding the connection with the fans for the next Six Nations (much as Lancaster and Jones himself managed when they first took over).

Whats Borthwick like with his team / squad selections.

Does he rotate alot, does he keep a settled lineup...does he random wild calls that make you wonder?

Does he pick the form players?

I hope he doesn't pick Dan Cole. He's been good this season for Tigers but surely Eng days long over.

As for form players etc it's a bit easier with a club as it's just the one group of players. With England obviously there's the whole Prem.
That's what I'm most keen to see, who's in his first squad. And who isn't. I rather suspect first squad be very similar to now with a few new faces then once he's had chance to have a look he'll settle on "his" squad.

In all this talk of Borthwick, Sir Kevin, Aled Walters, etc. moving to international jobs, how will this work for the Tigers? About to start their European campaign, halfway through the domestic season and their entire coaching staff leave?
I can see it happening at the end of the season - maybe Borthwick going to France as an assistant/observer with Jones before taking the job but Leicester would be mad to let them all walk at this point in the season.

Let them? How do you stop someone leaving a job?

Maybe they have something in place where he'll cover till the 6N? Maybe he has a clause that allows him to leave for the England job?

Until something is finally released, we're all a bit in the dark. Multiple outlets are reporting it now, so it certainly looks like it's happening.

Can't say I'm that excited about Borthwick coming in but I would take him over Eddie who has lost it for me.

mountain man wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I could be wrong here but if the RFU  do sack Eddie Jones, then surely it puts pressure on the RFU to prove they made the right choice.

How can they be sure who ever takes over will improve England performance  in next years six nations and the RWC?

Same could be said for any coach of any team though. Jones has had more than enough time.
That is the issue though, England get in Borthwick as rumoured and then finish mid table 6N. Won't know until it's tried.

Can only hope whoever gets job they at least get selection right. I've not heard or read anyone say Jones has. And drop the dead wood!

There would be no issue with any coach new to the job finishing mid table. You have to give coaches time to implement their new ideas, and you can't base anything on a small set of results. There's a misrepresentation, not by you but in general, that Jones is a bit hard done to following the AIs ( we drew with NZ etc) but the discontent stretches back far beyond. You then of course have the people quoting his full win ratio to cover up the win ration since 2021!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Maybe they have something in place where he'll cover till the 6N? Maybe he has a clause that allows him to leave for the England job?

Until something is finally released, we're all a bit in the dark. Multiple outlets are reporting it now, so it certainly looks like it's happening.

Can't say I'm that excited about Borthwick coming in but I would take him over Eddie who has lost it for me.

Yeah not excited by Borthwick primarily due to the rugby Leicester play. With the right coaches though could be good. I think we need a fresh break no matter though, as above 90% of the media have their knives drawn. Even unconvincing wins would have the questioning. Will still be interesting to see what Woodward complains about with the new coach though; kidding it will be why don't I have the job of supreme England Rugby Ruler yet.

Scottrf wrote:Let them? How do you stop someone leaving a job?

I was assuming that Leicester would have made them sign contracts?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah not excited by Borthwick primarily due to the rugby Leicester play.

Well and the fact that he learnt his trade from Eddie. Paying a fortune to sack Jones to hire his mentee.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Let them? How do you stop someone leaving a job?

I was assuming that Leicester would have made them sign contracts?

Of course but never seems to be a barrier.

Scottrf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah not excited by Borthwick primarily due to the rugby Leicester play.

Well and the fact that he learnt his trade from Eddie. Paying a fortune to sack Jones to hire his mentee.

Right decision nonetheless to get rid of Jones.

As the door seems about to close on Jones, it's interesting to see a few voices popping up on Twitter, and comment sections wondering of it's wise to sack him. Current Telegraph poll is running 68% in favour of sacking, with 32% against. Still a big majority wanting change but that's a larger vote for sticking with Jones than I would have expected from recent coverage.

Scottrf wrote:Let them? How do you stop someone leaving a job?

Well you can't really, people would have to be bought out of their contracts.

Personally, I wouldn’t be too concerned with Eddie until RWC23 – either the guy really is the enigmatic magician he claims and we make the final (or better), or as we all really expect England are dumped in the quarters or semis by France, SA, AB or Ireland. He can then jog on taking a good third of his team with him as immediate or imminent retirees. The side needs development of course but I’m not convinced we have the current personnel to make a difference in 10 months – it’ll take longer. I can sort of see the argument of dumping him now and giving the side an extra 10 months to begin development sooner – but tbh a lot of the Eddie Out brigade are dreaming of winning the RWC23, and that’s just too unrealistic IMO. Maybe the next one.

i still dont think he'll be sacked...

Geordie wrote:i still dont think he'll be sacked...

Too many outlets saying he has been sacked for me not to think he won't be.

I think he should stay..

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Personally, I wouldn’t be too concerned with Eddie until RWC23 – either the guy really is the enigmatic magician he claims and we make the final (or better), or as we all really expect England are dumped in the quarters or semis by France, SA, AB or Ireland. He can then jog on taking a good third of his team with him as immediate or imminent retirees. The side needs development of course but I’m not convinced we have the current personnel to make a difference in 10 months – it’ll take longer. I can sort of see the argument of dumping him now and giving the side an extra 10 months to begin development sooner – but tbh a lot of the Eddie Out brigade are dreaming of winning the RWC23, and that’s just too unrealistic IMO. Maybe the next one.

The frustrating thing is that - barring a couple of positions like the second lock and blindside - England do have the players to excel. They also have a game plan that is really effective when it works. What they don’t have is a group of players who are consistently able to execute. Some of that is down to the game plan being pretty new, some of it is down to the disruption of injury, some of it is down to selection that seems to have prioritised fit to a particular style over having what it takes to get the job done.

If Eddie does go - as seems increasingly likely - I hope that his replacement doesn’t abandon what he’s been trying to develop altogether. Maybe simplify it a bit, and make some more pragmatic selections, but the attacking system is very powerful when it works.

What’s most needed is better basics - better scrum and lineout coaching and a better defence coach - and probably a change in man management to get the team actually playing as a team.

Geordie wrote:i still dont think he'll be sacked...

Telegraph is reporting "sources close to Eddie" saying he's gone.

Gone, Sky Sports alert.

Poorfour wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Personally, I wouldn’t be too concerned with Eddie until RWC23 – either the guy really is the enigmatic magician he claims and we make the final (or better), or as we all really expect England are dumped in the quarters or semis by France, SA, AB or Ireland. He can then jog on taking a good third of his team with him as immediate or imminent retirees. The side needs development of course but I’m not convinced we have the current personnel to make a difference in 10 months – it’ll take longer. I can sort of see the argument of dumping him now and giving the side an extra 10 months to begin development sooner – but tbh a lot of the Eddie Out brigade are dreaming of winning the RWC23, and that’s just too unrealistic IMO. Maybe the next one.

The frustrating thing is that - barring a couple of positions like the second lock and blindside - England do have the players to excel. They also have a game plan that is really effective when it works. What they don’t have is a group of players who are consistently able to execute. Some of that is down to the game plan being pretty new, some of it is down to the disruption of injury, some of it is down to selection that seems to have prioritised fit to a particular style over having what it takes to get the job done.

If Eddie does go - as seems increasingly likely - I hope that his replacement doesn’t abandon what he’s been trying to develop altogether. Maybe simplify it a bit, and make some more pragmatic selections, but the attacking system is very powerful when it works.

What’s most needed is better basics - better scrum and lineout coaching and a better defence coach - and probably a change in man management to get the team actually playing as a team.

We have plenty of blindsides....or players who can play there very well..
I still think Jack Will and Ted Hill are my front runners...

Locks...Agree, we're in development stage with many of the ones we have but there are some decent ones to develop..
Eg.
Ollie Chessum,
Nick Isiekwe,
Maro Itoje,
Alex Coles
Hugh Tizard

i just want to see us doing the basics right...and stop all the crippling penalties.
&
Sort the midfield out.

Cockerill then as interim.

The right call but perhaps a little too late.

I keep on banging on about this but he was brilliant when he was first brought in, everything we needed. That is no longer the case and he seemed to have lost that edge some time ago.

Bringing in anyone new at this point should have a very positive short term boost for the team, although as usual we'll be constantly arguing about selections.

Cockers in? What's he been up to lately?

So its definitely confirmed now, not much of a surprise really.

Duty281 wrote:The right call but perhaps a little too late.

I agree....should have came through first thing this morning.

Had to happen unfortunately. As 7.5 mentioned, it's been a poor few years with little sign of improvement.

What's most concerning is the decline of individual performances and the continuing odd selections.

I don't expect us to win the WC but it would be good to see a coach with a fresh outlook.

mikey_dragon wrote:Cockers in? What's he been up to lately?

England Forwards Coach.

mikey_dragon wrote:Cockers in? What's he been up to lately?

England forwards coach

lostinwales wrote:I keep on banging on about this but he was brilliant when he was first brought in, everything we needed. That is no longer the case and he seemed to have lost that edge some time ago.

Bringing in anyone new at this point should have a very positive short term boost for the team, although as usual we'll be constantly arguing about selections.

The slight irony being....we could do with that Jones. He sorted out the set piece/defence and got us playing strong basics.

If you were Michael Cheika, woud you now consider asking Jones to join your team for Argentina's World Cup run, as they will have England in the group?

Rugby Fan wrote:If you were Michael Cheika, woud you now consider asking  Jones to join your team for Argentina's World Cup run, as they will have England in the group?

Absolutely

As someone said a bit of a sliding door moment.  Had we beaten Argentina by 1 point rather than lost by 1 point, beaten Japan, drawn with New Zealand and 'only' lost by a couple of scores to the World Champions, and off the back of an away series victory over Australia in the summer, would the RFU really have sacked Eddie?  £800k down the drain in the current climate is a lot of money.

It is interesting that Borthwick hasn't been announced straight away.  It makes me wonder whether he will be available until the end of the season.  Having a temporary coach in charge will be a mess and definitely not what we need.  It would be really interesting for the RFU to throw the dice and offer Scott Robertson the job through to the World Cup - but I can't see the RFU doing that.

Rugby Fan wrote:If you were Michael Cheika, woud you now consider asking  Jones to join your team for Argentina's World Cup run, as they will have England in the group?

Surely they'll be something in his Severance regarding this? If things were that easy, we could just keep him employed until after the WC.

nlpnlp wrote:As someone said a bit of a sliding door moment.  Had we beaten Argentina by 1 point rather than lost by 1 point, beaten Japan, drawn with New Zealand and 'only' lost by a couple of scores to the World Champions, and off the back of an away series victory over Australia in the summer, would the RFU really have sacked Eddie?  £800k down the drain in the current climate is a lot of money.
.

Very much the same, if we had scraped past Georgia & held our nerve against the Aussies, we would have been looking at 3 from 4 in the Autumn, but these are the fine margins.

I reckon Dean Richards would be a good fit...

nlpnlp wrote:As someone said a bit of a sliding door moment.  Had we beaten Argentina by 1 point rather than lost by 1 point, beaten Japan, drawn with New Zealand and 'only' lost by a couple of scores to the World Champions, and off the back of an away series victory over Australia in the summer, would the RFU really have sacked Eddie?  £800k down the drain in the current climate is a lot of money.

It is interesting that Borthwick hasn't been announced straight away.  It makes me wonder whether he will be available until the end of the season.  Having a temporary coach in charge will be a mess and definitely not what we need.  It would be really interesting for the RFU to throw the dice and offer Scott Robertson the job through to the World Cup - but I can't see the RFU doing that.

You'd like to think that these results wouldn't have meant a great deal. He would still have missed his performance targets and its more than just the AIs he's been sacked for. You never know Robertson was on the shortlist so it would be a nice treat to be announced once the I s are dotted.

No 7&1/2 wrote:...He would still have missed his performance targets...

What performance targets?

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:...He would still have missed his performance targets...

What performance targets?

80 per cent win rate was 1 of them.

So if its borthwick...whats the chance of George Ford coming back if hes fit for the 6n?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:...He would still have missed his performance targets...

What performance targets?

80 per cent win rate was 1 of them.

Is there anywhere these targets were officially stated? I ask, because one of my biggest complaints with the RFU, was not having targets, or ignoring targets set by someone who was later sacked.

Dallaglio made an interesting point on the Evening Standard podcast, which was recorded before the news today. He thought Jones should go, and believes the decision should have been taken much earlier. His Standard colleagues were inclined to stick, and see how it all played out. Dallaglio pointed out that, if the RFU stuck with Jones, and he failed at the World Cup, then they would all be attached to that failure for consistently backing him, and would have to be replaced. In short, England's poor form pushed Bill Sweeney and others into a position where it was easier to sack Jones than keep him.

Below, Ben Kay calls Eddie Jones the José Mourinho of rugby