England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:I just feel at times this pack has a bit of a soft underbelly...we need a few tough nuts. Sorry if i sound like a dinosaur there...

Nope, you old codger, not a dinosaur.  I absolutely agree about the soft underbelly.  Need beasties, not the Powder Puff Girls.  I understood what EJ was trying to do with Jonny Hill - right idea, wrong guy.  For me, the ideal alternative would be an in-form Launchbury.  After that, perhaps Ribbans, he has a motor, does the grunt work, and has attacking skills.  Just ask the ABs.

her indoors calls me that every day...

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:Martin had a couple of caps under Jones but I don't think he set world alight. Has he improved a lot since?

Hes still very young...hes developing so maybe wasnt quite ready when Eddie was having a look at him. Hes had more experience and a Prem title under his belt now.
Lawes will be the 6 for the 6n no doubt for the moment however.

Martin played about 10 minutes off the bench Vs Ireland in the 6N during a period where we had some injuries and where he was I think in the squad as an apprentice originally. Not really much of a chance to set the world alight.

He's still 21 and got capped when he was 19. Been plenty of growth. He hits like a train and hits often, that's his biggest strength, he's a monster in defence (just ask AWJ). He's mobile for a big lad (6'6 and 18 stone) often leads the kick chase, handy if you want him to jump at the lineout as well. The area he needs to work on is his ball carrying and that has certainly come on in recent years, with some improved footwork before contact. If he wants to really stand out he'll work more on his work around the ruck as that is fine but could be a strength with his mobility and power.

I'd have him in the squad now Sam...well him or T.Hill.

We need some real powered up mobility now. At 6, Lock and tight head in my worthless opinion.

I'd just like more mobile flankers, always worked best for England. Or at least one of the prime tactics of the blindside and locks to make sure they effectively clear rucks as quickly as possible. I'm still scratching my head why Jones was using Lawes in midfield when Dombrandt was asked to carry in the tight; made no sense to me. Locks will be intriguing picks. Itoje is obviously first choice, there are so many questions over the 2nd. Does he reckon he can actually make Hill good, never been impressed with him, he's picked because he's big basically?

Geordie, no opinions are worthless, some are just wrong.

Hopefully Hill won't get in squad. Barely any more than average for England and on too many occasions poor and prone to stupid indiscipline.
Lawes and Itoje in 2nd row for me. Having a better partner should also assist Itoje as he's not been player he was. Only issue with Lawes is whether he's too light now for a solid lock. If not Lawes then Ribbans but do we then get Lawes at 6 again?

Back row England have so many options, which made it all the more frustrating that Jones didnt pick them.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Geordie, no opinions are worthless, some are just wrong.  

And exactly how long have you been married?

mountain man wrote:Hopefully Hill won't get in squad. Barely any more than average for England and on too many occasions poor and prone to stupid indiscipline.
Lawes and Itoje in 2nd row for me. Having a better partner should also assist Itoje as he's not been player he was. Only issue with Lawes is whether he's too light now for a solid lock. If not Lawes then Ribbans but do we then get Lawes at 6 again?

Back row England have so many options, which made it all the more frustrating that Jones didnt pick them.

See Lawes and Itoje is just not right for me either. Lawes is 6 or retired off now for the youngsters to come through.

doctor_grey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Geordie, no opinions are worthless, some are just wrong.  

And exactly how long have you been married?

43 years. Seems like 43 months.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:Hopefully Hill won't get in squad. Barely any more than average for England and on too many occasions poor and prone to stupid indiscipline.
Lawes and Itoje in 2nd row for me. Having a better partner should also assist Itoje as he's not been player he was. Only issue with Lawes is whether he's too light now for a solid lock. If not Lawes then Ribbans but do we then get Lawes at 6 again?

Back row England have so many options, which made it all the more frustrating that Jones didnt pick them.

See Lawes and Itoje is just not right for me either. Lawes is 6 or retired off now for the youngsters to come through.

See, I told you only some of your opinions were wrong.    Lawes has transformed his body from that of a mid-weight lock to that of a heavyweight blindside, he has lost a bit of muscle and weight but now has more speed (not that he was ever slow) and engine that will go for 80 minutes. You still get one of the best lineout operators around allowing for a lump of a lock (Launchbury type comes to mind) who is merely proficient in the lineout but excels in the hard stuff. Like Launchbury he is a complete pain at disrupting lineout mauls.

Or of course another who excels in the lineout and does all the hard graft as well as make line breaks and offloads like Ribbans.

Sadly Launchbury is not the player he was...

Nor am I Geordie, it comes to us all eventually

Geordie wrote:Sadly Launchbury is not the player he was...

Not sure he's a Borthwick style of lock either.

I see George Martin as a bit of a mosert type player. Will be a good squad player but never a worldy in a certain position. Ribbans for me starts in the row with maro and we need to find our starting 8 pdq. Would earl and curry be a winning formula at 6 and 7?

On a separate note it was interesting reading about how leicester and borthwick turned wiese into an international 8 and he said the belief shown in him at Leicester was the catalyst he needed. This to me sounds very encouraging.

Yoda wrote:I see George Martin as a bit of a mosert type player. Will be a good squad player but never a worldy in a certain position. Ribbans for me starts in the row with maro and we need to find our starting 8 pdq. Would earl and curry be a winning formula at 6 and 7?

On a separate note it was interesting reading about how leicester and borthwick turned wiese into an international 8 and he said the belief shown in him at Leicester was the catalyst he needed. This to me sounds very encouraging.

Doesnt have to be a worldy...he has to be a player who is functional and does the job required at this level. He does it for the Prem Champions..and at 21 is only going to get better and more powerful.

The other point is Lawes condition.

Hes been out for 3 months with concussion / brain issues even had scans etc...and now about to play his first game back.

i hope to god hes fine...but he might suffer a set back?

Geordie wrote:The other point is Lawes condition.

Hes been out for 3 months with concussion / brain issues even had scans etc...and now about to play his first game back.

i hope to god hes fine...but he might suffer a set back?

Yep, this is what happened to Underhill. Repeated concussions. Fine to resume playing but what about future life for them 10/20/30 years down line. You have to assume with enough awareness now about head injuries etc then they get medical treatment and reviews about condition but I think if I were them or their family I'd be considering options outside playing.

Kind of feel oddly happy for England and Borthwick. Think its a very good appointment and England will have fairly quick success with him in terms of quick tangible improvements. He has never been a head coach but I dont think that will be an issue as neither had Farrell prior to being Ireland head coach and both had served as an assistant to the country they ended up being head coach of so the transition was/will be quick and smooth. When you are an Ireland and Leinster fan you do get a better appreciation of how good some of these top English coaches can be. Its a tragedy how out of favour Lancaster is in England as the guy is an rugby savant and tremendous resource to any rugby set up.

If the idiots in the RFU get overhauled one day we might see Lancaster in there in some form...but doubtful as head coach again.

Borthwick has been a head coach...of Leicester for 2-3 seasons now. And in that time rebuilt the tigers to Prem Champions.

Im actually very happy with the appointment.

Geordie wrote:If the idiots in the RFU get overhauled one day we might see Lancaster in there in some form...but doubtful as head coach again.

Borthwick has been a head coach...of Leicester for 2-3 seasons now. And in that time rebuilt the tigers to Prem Champions.

Im actually very happy with the appointment.

Agree, can't see Lancaster as head coach again after his RWC. Yes, granted not all the failures were on him, but that is still a tough mountain to climb.

Regarding Borthwick, I am oddly apathetic. Not sure exactly why, just doesn't resonate with me. I get EJ had to go, no issue there. Maybe my ability to trust the RFU to make good decisions is so low, that if they like Borthwick he must be the wrong guy and possibly a sleeper agent for Vladamir Putin.

Geordie wrote:

Yoda wrote:I see George Martin as a bit of a mosert type player. Will be a good squad player but never a worldy in a certain position. Ribbans for me starts in the row with maro and we need to find our starting 8 pdq. Would earl and curry be a winning formula at 6 and 7?

On a separate note it was interesting reading about how leicester and borthwick turned wiese into an international 8 and he said the belief shown in him at Leicester was the catalyst he needed. This to me sounds very encouraging.

Doesnt have to be a worldy...he has to be a player who is functional and does the job required at this level. He does it for the Prem Champions..and at 21 is only going to get better and more powerful.

That's why I think he will be a very useful servant to England like Joe Worsley. Happy to see him in the mix adding his energy.

Are people expecting there to be big changes in the squad, or more likely 4 or 5 changes - Earl, Marler, Cole, Hassel-Collins and Radwan? I think we are more likely to see a back to basics approach in tactics, rather than a player revolution.

nlpnlp wrote:Are people expecting there to be big changes in the squad, or more likely 4 or 5 changes - Earl, Marler, Cole, Hassel-Collins and Radwan?  I think we are more likely to see a back to basics approach in tactics, rather than a player revolution.

I've said a few times that I don't think that many of our best players are missing through selection. There have been big injury absentees and Marler is defenitely a loss through unavailability. But most the best players I think have been picked.

1.Genge, Marler, Mako
2.George, LCD, Blamire
3.Sinckler, Cole, Stuart
4.Itoje, Ribbans
5.Tizard, Chessum
6.Lawes, Martin
7.Curry, Earl, Willis
8.Vunipola, Dombrandt (Mercer when available)

9.JvP, Quirke, Youngs
10.Farrell, Smith

11.May, OHC
12.Kelly, Lawrence
13.Slade, Tuilagi
14.Watson, Freeman
15.Steward, Arundell

That would probably be my squad at full strength. Not massive changes. Marler and Cole in. Earl and Lawrence recalled. Kelly added. A pacey younger winger added - I've put OHC but would just as happily see Radwan. Similar at blindside I want a more similar challenger to Lawes in the squad but would just as happily take Ted Hill.

The selection differences for me in the 23 would be investing in different second rows and moving on from Smith-Farrell as a partnership. That leaves game plan as the main change. That can have a huge impact though of course.

When Jones took over many thought the Ford-Farrell partnership wouldn't work and Haskell-Robshaw at flanker instead of a 'true openside' was met with antipathy by basically all of us after Lancaster's reign. Those first two years saw some really special rugby though.

king_carlos wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:Are people expecting there to be big changes in the squad, or more likely 4 or 5 changes - Earl, Marler, Cole, Hassel-Collins and Radwan?  I think we are more likely to see a back to basics approach in tactics, rather than a player revolution.

I've said a few times that I don't think that many of our best players are missing through selection. There have been big injury absentees and Marler is defenitely a loss through unavailability. But most the best players I think have been picked.

1.Genge, Marler, Mako
2.George, LCD, Blamire
3.Sinckler, Cole, Stuart
4.Itoje, Ribbans
5.Tizard, Chessum
6.Lawes, Martin
7.Curry, Earl, Willis
8.Vunipola, Dombrandt (Mercer when available)

9.JvP, Quirke, Youngs
10.Farrell, Smith

11.May, OHC
12.Kelly, Lawrence
13.Slade, Tuilagi
14.Watson, Freeman
15.Steward, Arundell

That would probably be my squad at full strength. Not massive changes. Marler and Cole in. Earl and Lawrence recalled. Kelly added. A pacey younger winger added - I've put OHC but would just as happily see Radwan. Similar at blindside I want a more similar challenger to Lawes in the squad but would just as happily take Ted Hill.

The selection differences for me in the 23 would be investing in different second rows and moving on from Smith-Farrell as a partnership. That leaves game plan as the main change. That can have a huge impact though of course.

When Jones took over many thought the Ford-Farrell partnership wouldn't work and Haskell-Robshaw at flanker instead of a 'true openside' was met with antipathy by basically all of us after Lancaster's reign. Those first two years saw some really special rugby though.

I think Ribbans is more of a 5 than a 4

It was something SB during his first interview that made me sit up a bit and take note. He said we wants to use exciting talent available in the English game to make kids fall on love with the game. He didn't bang on about winning world cups, or winning games very much. Either the RFU have dictated that he needs to win the fans back by building an exciting squad or it is a personal deep down want. To my mind it was the perfect thing to say at the right time but truth is his idea of excitement might be completely different to anyone else's. Time will tell.

I think SB will take more chances and select for future by giving youngsters a chance mixed in with the experienced. For example there is a young loose head at quin's who played against racing 92 who looked more than solid and carried hard and scrummaged well. He was an England u20 I think. Borthwick will want to stamp his mark on fring players and young lads like this may find themselves in the mix.

Id play Slade at 13, total baller with all the skills. Will be fun to see Arundell play a run of games too.

I'd also go with Ford at 10, think he is still England's most talented 10 since Wilkinson.

May and Watson have had so many injuries over the years, Watson in particular. Are they still able to play at the levels they used to? Are we confident that they won't break in the next month or so? We have explosive wingers all over the Prem, bring one of them in, explosive pace on one wing, big fast one on the other who can chase and contest the kicks.

The same with Tuilagi, he looks like he is in top shape, but from what we have seen he is just not making the ground or the breaks, would we be better playing a 13 that might actually pass the ball to a winger or full back, a biased example but someone like Dingwall, he has the full skill set and is a natural leader on the pitch, if Slade is not playing we need someone at 13 that is going to organise the defence.

Lots of talk about Locks....Isiekwe is back playing this weekend. Surely he must come in the conversations aswell. 6'7 19st...

Saracens have 3 cracking locks...Itoje, Tizzard and Isiekwe. Wonder who will be playing at 6. Itoje?

And then former Saracens lock Joel Kpoku...currently in France and playing great...

Geordie wrote:Lots of talk about Locks....Isiekwe is back playing this weekend. Surely he must come in the conversations aswell. 6'7 19st...

Saracens have 3 cracking locks...Itoje, Tizzard and Isiekwe. Wonder who will be playing at 6. Itoje?

And then former Saracens lock Joel Kpoku...currently in France and playing great...

Isiekwe could be good but still hasn't properly nailed down a spot and with Itoje and Tizzard faces a hard challenge to get in the team. Saracens are surely going to have McFarland start at 6, probably the form blindside in the league.

As for Kpoku, he may be injured but I don't think he's played this season has he?

I think Isiekwe could come through. Hes a real powerhouse and still only 24/25. If he can just get it together you couldnt wish for a perfect model of a modern lock forward.

I forgot about mcFarland...so yes Saracens are in bloomin good shape for their locks and 6 spot.

Yeah it's his size that makes you look and think...if only he was a better rugby player! Still very young for a lock tho.

I really rate Isiekwe. Hadn't he only just come back into the England squad again before his injury?
I would like to see Tizard, Isiekwe, Itoje and Ribbans as locks. Could be a good bunch, and Hill can work on his discipline.

Didn't Sam say previously that Borthwick has fixed Genge and Wieses discipline issues. So I'm sure he will work on Johnny Hill.

The question is how good can Hill actually be. Can he push on or Is he at his ceiling.  

He's going to have competition from a number of Locks now...Tizzard, Ribbans, Chessum, Isiekwe, Coles etc...so it'll be fascinating to see how SB selects his lock stables...

Geordie wrote:Didn't Sam say previously that Borthwick has fixed Genge and Wieses discipline issues. So I'm sure he will work on Johnny Hill.

The question is how good can Hill actually be. Can he push on or Is he at his ceiling.  

He's going to have competition from a number of Locks now...Tizzard, Ribbans, Chessum, Isiekwe, Coles etc...so it'll be fascinating to see how SB selects his lock stables...

That's assuming Itoje gets back to form, he was ordinary to say the least in the AIs. Iswieke and Ribbans is a combo that could really work. Both 19 stone or so, mobile, good lineout, good around the fringes, breakdown work is more than adequate, and very good ball in hand, add in Lawes as well at 6 and that is some very mobile large lumps that can play rugby.

There's no question that Itoje will start.

Unfortunately I agree. We seem to have this attitude that because a player is a great player or has been, he deserves to be picked even if his form is poor. This only leads to complacency, players need to understand that if they are not playing well, they will be dropped no matter who they are. Otherwise, there is little incentivisation, pulling on the shirt doesn't see to work these days.

Perhaps. However I'd still say even though itoje has been underwhelming yo his standards he's still probably been about the 3rd best player this year.

I have to say that it not saying a lot this autumn, very few players have had a good game and those that have have had it in fits and starts, the last 10minutes against NZ comes to mind. Itoje has been by his standards very ordinary and has gone back to being that stupid penalty machine he used to be. Even if he was playing well, that many penalties given away would make me think twice about picking him. He is supposed to be one of the leaders and needs to behave like one.

It's absolutely not saying much wpi!

I agree Itoje wasn't near his best this Ai...I'd like to see his overall stats though. I still think a real physical set piece dominant lock and similar 6 ( Ted Hill )will allow Itoje the "freedom" to roam and disrupt more and return to his best

On a side note..
Bath starting this weekend
6 Ted Hill
7 Sam Underhill

Now that's a physical set of flankers....

Can't believe there's a call here for Cole to be picked. He got minced in 2019. Yes he's been decent this season but compete international level?
Likewise unfortunately Manu. Time up
May same.

Eng got new coach, if same players or even older ones picked it's night night for RWC.

mountain man wrote:Can't believe there's a call here for Cole to be picked. He got minced in 2019. Yes he's been decent this season but compete international level?

If you were to end the career of every prop that had a tough day at the office Vs the Boks at scrum time you'd have a world shortage of international props. He also finished the game well at the set piece once Kruis and Marler came on to add some solidarity around him.

He's currently the form EQ tighthead in the Prem. Will Stuart is injured and Joe Heyes is still young and developing. There aren't a mass of options and the world cup is 9 months away so there's not much time to develop the other options.

Well I guess we see what happens if he should be picked and as a staunch England fan hope I'm wrong but I just don't see likes of Cole being up to International standard anymore.

Red for Earl means he's probably missing out for any start to the 6ns.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Red for Earl means he's probably missing out for any start to the 6ns.

Doubt it. It'll be two weeks by the time previous good behaviour etc gets taken into account.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Red for Earl means he's probably missing out for any start to the 6ns.

As opposed to the massive selection of international tightheads we can select instead?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Red for Earl means he's probably missing out for any start to the 6ns.

As opposed to the massive selection of international tightheads we can select instead?

Tightheads? I don't understand.

Itoje’s performances often seem to be related to who he has alongside him. If the other lock is a really solid lock with a high work rate who can get through more than half the basic workload, then Itoje tends to play far better. If he feels that the basics are under pressure, then Itoje tends to overplay and make mistakes. I think that’s why he worked so well with Kruis, and I suspect why Saracens poached Tizard (note: only one z) and have promoted him straight into a starting role. They are both very tidy, very technical locks who get through a lot of work and free Itoje up to play his natural game. Hill has never really looked like doing that; Ribbans looked much better in his cameos.

In terms of props, Borthwick is better placed to know who could be ready for the RWC than we are, but on current performances he could do a lot worse than recall Cole and Marler (along with a good set piece lock to back up Cole). However, I think the key thing is that the England pack of the AIs looked like they didn’t know what their roles were half the time - I think Eddie was trying to introduce too much to them too soon and they were getting in each other’s way. Simplifying the messages to the pack would probably make a big difference, almost regardless of personnel.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Red for Earl means he's probably missing out for any start to the 6ns.

As opposed to the massive selection of international tightheads we can select instead?

Tightheads? I don't understand.

It does help if I quote the right comment

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:Can't believe there's a call here for Cole to be picked. He got minced in 2019. Yes he's been decent this season but compete international level?

If you were to end the career of every prop that had a tough day at the office Vs the Boks at scrum time you'd have a world shortage of international props. He also finished the game well at the set piece once Kruis and Marler came on to add some solidarity around him.

He's currently the form EQ tighthead in the Prem. Will Stuart is injured and Joe Heyes is still young and developing. There aren't a mass of options and the world cup is 9 months away so there's not much time to develop the other options.

I've posted this about a million times but the issue in the RWC final was the error count leading to SA scrum put ins, not the scrum. It's very rare for international sides to dominate against the head now. Even in those rare cases on further inspection it usually turns out the side on top were doing something illegal that wasn't picked up on the day. Such as Genge walking round the corner against Ireland last year.

In the 2019 final England had 3 scrum put ins, won all three and won one penalty. The Boks had 11 put ins, won all 11 and won 4 penalties. Pretty much a penalty every three scrum put ins and 100% retention from both sides. The difference being the Boks had 11 put ins.

People getting fixated on the scrum rather than error count after the 2019 final is a prime example of not seeing the wood for the trees.