England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

Geordie wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:

Geordie wrote:Watching the tigers v Sharks build up and they are still talking Manu. How deflating.  

Put Kelly In at 12 and move on. Jeez

I think Manu and Sale won this particular battle.  I understand the frustrations with Manu's injuries, but he is still for me comfortably the best centre available to England when fit.  If he is fit then pick him -if he isn't don't.  He won't be available after the world cup so we can move on then.  But I don't see the point in not picking our best option in a position just because they have been injured, or there is someone younger available.

Just can't agree with that now...he used to be ...but no longer.

His team dominated last night and yet he looked a spent force.
Kelly in a losing fight showed up more.

12 kelly
13 Slade / Lawrence preferably

I'd look at this now.

I'm OK to move on from Tuilagi but....Slade. these last AIs I was more surprised when he didn't knock the ball on in contact than did!

Geordie wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:

Geordie wrote:Watching the tigers v Sharks build up and they are still talking Manu. How deflating.  

Put Kelly In at 12 and move on. Jeez

I think Manu and Sale won this particular battle.  I understand the frustrations with Manu's injuries, but he is still for me comfortably the best centre available to England when fit.  If he is fit then pick him -if he isn't don't.  He won't be available after the world cup so we can move on then.  But I don't see the point in not picking our best option in a position just because they have been injured, or there is someone younger available.

Just can't agree with that now...he used to be ...but no longer.

His team dominated last night and yet he looked a spent force.
Kelly in a losing fight showed up more.

12 kelly
13 Slade / Lawrence preferably

I'd look at this now.

I don't think it's fair to say Manu was a spent force. Sale found a lot of space on the outside because Manu made a number of runs into heavy traffic. Didn't make much in the way of metres on those carries but two or three Tigers tacklers would step in every time. Less impact but more work rate than we normally see from Manu. There was also a big hit on Potter that forced a knock on. Kelly did cut him down with a try saving tackle when it looked like Manu was heading for the corner.

A good match up, Kelly didn't exactly get a fair crack in the second half where he did a one man organisation job trying to keep the backline together in defence.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Knowing what was said and the status of the targets family member I would have reacted similar to Heenhan or maybe more.

Sledging Is part of the game that should not be removed.its a tough collision sport.

However Marler should have engaged brain in this case...unless he didn't know the situation with said family member.

But then sledging is there to out people off. It's in the vein off a joke comment here and there, the pats on the head of an opposition player. I'm happy to see players penalised but the spirit of the game talk etc means its quite difficult to know where the line is. Knowing certain people have short fuses isn't exactly going to stop you targeting them.

The problem I have is that the Marler verdict won't be applied with any level of consistency, ever. Ben Curry last night was given a stern word from Carley for celebrating a big hit and mocking the player that was left with a HIA after it. We'll skip the bizarre decision not to review but it was classless and a worse look for rugby than what Marler did. Will there be a citing, no chance.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:

Geordie wrote:Watching the tigers v Sharks build up and they are still talking Manu. How deflating.  

Put Kelly In at 12 and move on. Jeez

I think Manu and Sale won this particular battle.  I understand the frustrations with Manu's injuries, but he is still for me comfortably the best centre available to England when fit.  If he is fit then pick him -if he isn't don't.  He won't be available after the world cup so we can move on then.  But I don't see the point in not picking our best option in a position just because they have been injured, or there is someone younger available.

Just can't agree with that now...he used to be ...but no longer.

His team dominated last night and yet he looked a spent force.
Kelly in a losing fight showed up more.

12 kelly
13 Slade / Lawrence preferably

I'd look at this now.

I'm OK to move on from Tuilagi but....Slade. these last AIs I was more surprised when he didn't knock the ball on in contact than did!

I'd prefer Lawrence admittedly but I suspect Borthwick will be looking for Defensive solidity first up...

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Knowing what was said and the status of the targets family member I would have reacted similar to Heenhan or maybe more.

Sledging Is part of the game that should not be removed.its a tough collision sport.

However Marler should have engaged brain in this case...unless he didn't know the situation with said family member.

But then sledging is there to out people off. It's in the vein off a joke comment here and there, the pats on the head of an opposition player. I'm happy to see players penalised but the spirit of the game talk etc means its quite difficult to know where the line is. Knowing certain people have short fuses isn't exactly going to stop you targeting them.

The problem I have is that the Marler verdict won't be applied with any level of consistency, ever. Ben Curry last night was given a stern word from Carley for celebrating a big hit and mocking the player that was left with a HIA after it. We'll skip the bizarre decision not to review but it was classless and a worse look for rugby than what Marler did. Will there be a citing, no chance.

Yeah. And that's why even though there are pretty strong words about putting it as this spirit thing leaves loads of wriggle room.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Knowing what was said and the status of the targets family member I would have reacted similar to Heenhan or maybe more.

Sledging Is part of the game that should not be removed.its a tough collision sport.

However Marler should have engaged brain in this case...unless he didn't know the situation with said family member.

But then sledging is there to out people off. It's in the vein off a joke comment here and there, the pats on the head of an opposition player. I'm happy to see players penalised but the spirit of the game talk etc means its quite difficult to know where the line is. Knowing certain people have short fuses isn't exactly going to stop you targeting them.

The problem I have is that the Marler verdict won't be applied with any level of consistency, ever. Ben Curry last night was given a stern word from Carley for celebrating a big hit and mocking the player that was left with a HIA after it. We'll skip the bizarre decision not to review but it was classless and a worse look for rugby than what Marler did. Will there be a citing, no chance.

Yeah. And that's why even though there are pretty strong words about putting it as this spirit thing leaves loads of wriggle room.

What it boils down to is that if there's a media witch hunt then they'll do something about it, if not there's no interest.

So televised games will take more of a hit. And frankly it's a little down to what refs think is funny or antagonistic.

Well I continue on...Ted Hill and Ollie Lawrence must be in the squad and I would say start in the 6n.

Both hugely prominent today in horrendous conditions against a dominant opposition.

Geordie wrote:Well I continue on...Ted Hill and Ollie Lawrence must be in the squad and I would say start in the 6n.

Both hugely prominent today in horrendous conditions against a dominant opposition.

I'd be surprised if they weren't included.

I think and hope Borthwick will select some new/recalled players but then who will he omit? That's as interesting as any new faces to a training squad is who gets the thanks but no thanks call.
I'm sure we all have our list.

Happy New Year one and all ( I'll even include Leicester supporters )

I agree with MM, who doesn't make the squad is just a interesting as who does.

It makes you wonder how much restriction Jones put on the players in the way they played, you could never imagine Farrell even contemplating that ridiculous pass he made yesterday under Jones tenure. It goes to show he can do it, if allowed.

Matt Proudfoot is apparently off.

Happy new year everyone. Hoping its as fabulous for you guys as that pass from Farrell.

Happy New Year boys. Lots of interesting things in the pot for 23. Ultimately, the RWC but, especially with England, it will be very a very interesting year.

Cole kelly and Earl to be in the extended squad announced this week according to the telegraph.

A fee Saints players putting their hand up today mind...

Geordie wrote:A fee Saints players putting their hand up today mind...

Not just the players. Sam Vesty really is the premier attack coach in the league. If Gleeson doesn't measure up to what Borthwick wants then there should be a shortlist of Vesty to replace him.

Shame Fin Smith went off at half time he was very good in the first half. The interplay between him and Dingwall was pulling Quins apart which when you consider the Quins midfield is very impressive.

Yeah agree on Vesty. Healy was singing his praises aswell.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cole kelly and Earl to be in the extended squad announced this week according to the telegraph.

Not the worst news, Cole could definitely do a job between now and the next world cup cycle. I'd have expected the other two to be involved anyway.

Geordie wrote:Yeah agree on Vesty. Healy was singing his praises aswell.

Probably the first significant thing in Vesty's coaching career I'd hold against him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cole kelly and Earl to be in the extended squad announced this week according to the telegraph.

Three of the main changes I was hoping to see so that makes me happy. Lawrence also in the other significant one I'm hoping to see. A more like for like backup to Lawes in Hill or Martin would be good too.

Lock will be a curious position selection wise too.

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yeah agree on Vesty. Healy was singing his praises aswell.

Probably the first significant thing in Vesty's coaching career I'd hold against him.

Agreed. If Healy says anything then complete opposite applies. That man is a complete ladies front bottom.

I've just seen what Marler is alleged to have said to Heenan. That is an utter disgrace and I'm surprised the Quins players didn't want to chin him as well.

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yeah agree on Vesty. Healy was singing his praises aswell.

Probably the first significant thing in Vesty's coaching career I'd hold against him.

Agreed. If Healy says anything then complete opposite applies. That man is a complete ladies front bottom.

I've just seen what Marler is alleged to have said to Heenan. That is an utter disgrace and I'm surprised the Quins players didn't want to chin him as well.

Meh, it was all a bit school playground, just happened to say it to the wrong person. Any other game and no one gives a toss.

Just watched the Saints game, Dingwall really holding his hand up for inclusion in the squad, completely different kind of player to Manu, Kelly etc. but he just makes things work, he is really intelligent player that can see what is in front of him and exploits any weakness. Along with Smith he would frighten most defences (either Smith).

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Just watched the Saints game, Dingwall really holding his hand up for inclusion in the squad, completely different kind of player to Manu, Kelly etc. but he just makes things work, he is  really intelligent player that can see what is in front of him and exploits any weakness. Along with Smith he would frighten most defences (either Smith).

Dingwall is a very intelligent player and away from the pitch he's supposed to be a good character to have around. The issue for him is that physicality wise he's not great. He tried to straighten the line a couple of times Vs Quins yesterday and got creamed, defensively he'd be targeted at international level as his head on tackling isn't strong.

Areas he will no doubt work on and look to fix but given where the England midfield is currently his selection would be a risk.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yeah agree on Vesty. Healy was singing his praises aswell.

Probably the first significant thing in Vesty's coaching career I'd hold against him.

Agreed. If Healy says anything then complete opposite applies. That man is a complete ladies front bottom.

I've just seen what Marler is alleged to have said to Heenan. That is an utter disgrace and I'm surprised the Quins players didn't want to chin him as well.

Meh, it was all a bit school playground, just happened to say it to the wrong person. Any other game and no one gives a toss.

Well what I read was he called his mother who is in hospital with cancer a "f****** w****. So not sure if I'd class that as school playground. I think it's a disgrace.

The dark arts eh.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Just watched the Saints game, Dingwall really holding his hand up for inclusion in the squad, completely different kind of player to Manu, Kelly etc. but he just makes things work, he is  really intelligent player that can see what is in front of him and exploits any weakness. Along with Smith he would frighten most defences (either Smith).

Dingwall is a very intelligent player and away from the pitch he's supposed to be a good character to have around. The issue for him is that physicality wise he's not great. He tried to straighten the line a couple of times Vs Quins yesterday and got creamed, defensively he'd be targeted at international level as his head on tackling isn't strong.

Areas he will no doubt work on and look to fix but given where the England midfield is currently his selection would be a risk.

He got hit a few times, but how many people did he put into space? He is no Manu, his game is not about power, it is about exploiting whats in front of him and people playing off him, he trucks it up sometimes to keep the opposition wary and hesitating to move wide too soon. He plays at his best with a Smith inside of him (either Fin or Marcus). With someone like Lawrence outside him and Freeman, Arundell and Steward running lines off him and or Smith they could be a nightmare for opposition defences.

mountain man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yeah agree on Vesty. Healy was singing his praises aswell.

Probably the first significant thing in Vesty's coaching career I'd hold against him.

Agreed. If Healy says anything then complete opposite applies. That man is a complete ladies front bottom.

I've just seen what Marler is alleged to have said to Heenan. That is an utter disgrace and I'm surprised the Quins players didn't want to chin him as well.

Meh, it was all a bit school playground, just happened to say it to the wrong person. Any other game and no one gives a toss.

Well what I read was he called his mother who is in hospital with cancer a "f****** w****. So not sure if I'd class that as school playground. I think it's a disgrace.

He didn't know she was in hospital at the time did he? Heenan called him bro and an already irate Marler said he wasn't his brother and then passed comment on Heenan's mother. It's context, had Marler made the same comment to any other player there would have been nothing made of it. Now, had Marler known about Heenan's mother in advance and then made the comment that would be disgraceful.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Just watched the Saints game, Dingwall really holding his hand up for inclusion in the squad, completely different kind of player to Manu, Kelly etc. but he just makes things work, he is  really intelligent player that can see what is in front of him and exploits any weakness. Along with Smith he would frighten most defences (either Smith).

Dingwall is a very intelligent player and away from the pitch he's supposed to be a good character to have around. The issue for him is that physicality wise he's not great. He tried to straighten the line a couple of times Vs Quins yesterday and got creamed, defensively he'd be targeted at international level as his head on tackling isn't strong.

Areas he will no doubt work on and look to fix but given where the England midfield is currently his selection would be a risk.

He got hit a few times, but how many people did he put into space? He is no Manu, his game is not about power, it is about exploiting whats in front of him and people playing off him, he trucks it up sometimes to keep the opposition wary and hesitating to move wide too soon. He plays at his best with a Smith inside of him (either Fin or Marcus). With someone like Lawrence outside him and Freeman, Arundell and Steward running lines off him and or Smith they could be a nightmare for opposition defences.

I'm aware he's a classy player but international rugby is a step up in physicality and if his defence is a bit iffy at Prem level then the opposition will be sending their big ball carriers down his channel. Same with the carrying, if doesn't have to be something special but it needs not to result in him losing the collision because again it'll be a minor thing at Prem level but the tougher international midfields and defences will batter him back.

He's more than intelligent enough to work on these aspects of his game.

I'd be interested to see him play with Marcus. M Smith hasn't combined well with a second midfield distributor so far be it Farrell or Slade so that side of Dingwall's game isn't guaranteed to shine through. Dingwall runs really good support lines though and M Smith does like to go on his own and away from support so having a 12 that instinctively picks up on that and would be there for the offload is something England need if Marcus is going to be the go to 10.

Hodgson and Kelly confirmed as leaving as well as the aforementioned Proudfoot. Proper clean sweep. Hope he takes a similar fresh view on tactics and squad.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yeah agree on Vesty. Healy was singing his praises aswell.

Probably the first significant thing in Vesty's coaching career I'd hold against him.

Agreed. If Healy says anything then complete opposite applies. That man is a complete ladies front bottom.

I've just seen what Marler is alleged to have said to Heenan. That is an utter disgrace and I'm surprised the Quins players didn't want to chin him as well.

Meh, it was all a bit school playground, just happened to say it to the wrong person. Any other game and no one gives a toss.

Well what I read was he called his mother who is in hospital with cancer a "f****** w****. So not sure if I'd class that as school playground. I think it's a disgrace.

He didn't know she was in hospital at the time did he? Heenan called him bro and an already irate Marler said he wasn't his brother and then passed comment on Heenan's mother. It's context, had Marler made the same comment to any other player there would have been nothing made of it. Now, had Marler known about Heenan's mother in advance and then made the comment that would be disgraceful.

Disagree. I think anyone would react to that being said to them regardless of circumstances.

Feel a bit sorry for Brett Hodgson, poor bloke never had a chance. The three leaving makes sense though, don't need both Hodgson and Sinfield. Don't need a forwards coach and training coordinator when you've got Borthwick.

Borthwick is his own man, he'll do things how he wants. I just hope the RFU keep their noses out of it, don't trust them not to try and politicise things based on optics as opposed to logic.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hodgson and Kelly confirmed as leaving as well as the aforementioned Proudfoot. Proper clean sweep. Hope he takes a similar fresh view on tactics and squad.

Cockerell still there isn't he? He's forwards coach, with SB probably coaching the lineout... so we are looking for a scrum coach.

And we have Gleeson and Sinfield as attack and defence...

mountain man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yeah agree on Vesty. Healy was singing his praises aswell.

Probably the first significant thing in Vesty's coaching career I'd hold against him.

Agreed. If Healy says anything then complete opposite applies. That man is a complete ladies front bottom.

I've just seen what Marler is alleged to have said to Heenan. That is an utter disgrace and I'm surprised the Quins players didn't want to chin him as well.

Meh, it was all a bit school playground, just happened to say it to the wrong person. Any other game and no one gives a toss.

Well what I read was he called his mother who is in hospital with cancer a "f****** w****. So not sure if I'd class that as school playground. I think it's a disgrace.

He didn't know she was in hospital at the time did he? Heenan called him bro and an already irate Marler said he wasn't his brother and then passed comment on Heenan's mother. It's context, had Marler made the same comment to any other player there would have been nothing made of it. Now, had Marler known about Heenan's mother in advance and then made the comment that would be disgraceful.

Disagree. I think anyone would react to that being said to them regardless of circumstances.

Not played much social rugby then have you. Need a thicker skin than that to be baited so easy. Heenan was a different case as there was something weighing on his mind and Marler touched a nerve.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hodgson and Kelly confirmed as leaving as well as the aforementioned Proudfoot. Proper clean sweep. Hope he takes a similar fresh view on tactics and squad.

Cockerell still there isn't he? He's forwards coach,  with SB probably coaching the lineout... so we are looking for a scrum coach.

And we have Gleeson and Sinfield as attack and defence...

Cockerill was forward skills coach or some rubbish title to get him in. He's still there but will probably be the scrum coach

Ah right thanks Sam.
Is Cockerill actually a good Scrum coach...

Who is Kelly? Thw transition coach?

Geordie wrote:Ah right thanks Sam.
Is Cockerill actually a good Scrum coach...

Who is Kelly? Thw transition coach?

He coached the Tigers scrum for a while before a specialist was hired. I'm sure he'll do fine he was in more than few during his time. He'll generally assist Borthwick. Borthwick is calm and measured, it's been said he's let Sinfield do the passionate speech stuff when it's been required so maybe he'll unleash Cockers when shouting and aggression is needed.

Kelly was the field hockey coach Eddie Jones hired. He was successful in his own field.

I played plenty of rugby and if anyone had said that to me I'd have decked them. Maybe you'd brush it off, I wouldn't.

mountain man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yeah agree on Vesty. Healy was singing his praises aswell.

Probably the first significant thing in Vesty's coaching career I'd hold against him.

Agreed. If Healy says anything then complete opposite applies. That man is a complete ladies front bottom.

I've just seen what Marler is alleged to have said to Heenan. That is an utter disgrace and I'm surprised the Quins players didn't want to chin him as well.

Meh, it was all a bit school playground, just happened to say it to the wrong person. Any other game and no one gives a toss.

Well what I read was he called his mother who is in hospital with cancer a "f****** w****. So not sure if I'd class that as school playground. I think it's a disgrace.

He didn't know she was in hospital at the time did he? Heenan called him bro and an already irate Marler said he wasn't his brother and then passed comment on Heenan's mother. It's context, had Marler made the same comment to any other player there would have been nothing made of it. Now, had Marler known about Heenan's mother in advance and then made the comment that would be disgraceful.

Disagree. I think anyone would react to that being said to them regardless of circumstances.

It's his go to insult apparently.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hodgson and Kelly confirmed as leaving as well as the aforementioned Proudfoot. Proper clean sweep. Hope he takes a similar fresh view on tactics and squad.

Cockerell still there isn't he? He's forwards coach,  with SB probably coaching the lineout... so we are looking for a scrum coach.

And we have Gleeson and Sinfield as attack and defence...

Yeah how the hell Gleeson is still there I'm not sure.

It's a bit like with Wales, they kept Humphreys and Jenkins. Very odd decision I thought.

Urgghhhh, first day back at work. Guardian says that they expect more changes to the coaching staff. Hoping it's because the RFU only have one negotiating team and they were all in Leicester. So WPI please let us know if you see a tall bald bloke talking to Sam Vesty in the next couple of days.

Reckon the extended squad will be called today so something fresh to talk about...

Yeh, we can argue about which players don't deserve to be in the squad instead of which players deserve to be picked and aren't in the squad.

Northampton County Council have passed a new Byelaw; any balding men over 6'4" are to be stopped from entering the county and detained if necessary. Any seen to have made it as far as Weedon Road are to be arrested and put in a maximum security prison for the remaining period of SV's contract.

mountain man wrote:I played plenty of rugby and if anyone had said that to me I'd have decked them. Maybe you'd brush it off, I wouldn't.

Maybe you're just bigger and tougher than me

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Yeh, we can argue about which players don't deserve to be in the squad  instead of which players deserve to be picked and aren't in the squad.

Northampton County Council have passed a new Byelaw; any balding men over 6'4" are to be stopped from entering the county and detained if necessary. Any seen to have made it as far as Weedon Road are to be arrested and put in a maximum security prison for the remaining period of SV's contract.

Now come in WPI, we've been gutted for the greater good up at WR so it's only fair Saints offer you their one good coach to help the rebuild.

I'm very surprised with some of the reactions on the Marler outburst. Worse things get said on a rugby field about 1000 times a game.....and like Sam suggested, nobody really takes much notice.

I doubt you'd get much playing time MM if you were getting into scraps every time somebody said something about your mother!

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Yeh, we can argue about which players don't deserve to be in the squad  instead of which players deserve to be picked and aren't in the squad.

Northampton County Council have passed a new Byelaw; any balding men over 6'4" are to be stopped from entering the county and detained if necessary. Any seen to have made it as far as Weedon Road are to be arrested and put in a maximum security prison for the remaining period of SV's contract.

Just bop him in the snout like a shark. Can't imagine his nose has become any more durable.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm very surprised with some of the reactions on the Marler outburst. Worse things get said on a rugby field about 1000 times a game.....and like Sam suggested, nobody really takes much notice.

I doubt you'd get much playing time MM if you were getting into scraps every time somebody said something about your mother!

I don't think Marler is any worse than most props out there in terms of his sledging, but he's got a really unhelpful knack of it being caught on camera or leading to incidents that do. And because he's been caught and banned before, he gets made an example of repeatedly.

To answer Geordie's question about what he adds outside the scrum, his carrying doesn't look spectacular but that's mostly because he's used to carry off slow ball. In other aspects, though, he's been consistently putting in 70 minute performances where he's tackling hard right up to the point he's taken off. The BT Sport team highlighted that Baxter was slow to get into position defensively and Saints were exploiting that; while that's partly down to inexperience and partly down to a team on a 5-day turnaround facing one that's nice and fresh, those holes aren't there when Marler is on the pitch. He's still right up there in defence - something England could have done with against the Boks in particular.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm very surprised with some of the reactions on the Marler outburst. Worse things get said on a rugby field about 1000 times a game.....and like Sam suggested, nobody really takes much notice.

I doubt you'd get much playing time MM if you were getting into scraps every time somebody said something about your mother!

Which begs the question why then was Marler banned for a comment you say is said all the time or worse? Surely players, officials etc so have just shrugged their shoulders and said nothing to it, we get it all the time.