England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

It was picked up on the mic and someone reacted as their mums ill and don't believe she is a pro in that particular field?

But if things like that said 1000 times a game or whatever then said comments would inevitably be picked up by ref, mic etc. I'm very surprised how many here seem to be defending Marler.

mountain man wrote:But if things like that said 1000 times a game or whatever then said comments would inevitably be picked up by ref, mic etc. I'm very surprised how many here seem to be defending Marler.

If that's the line in the sand now, fair enough. I'm surprised it elicited a reaction tbh. You see comments like that in cricket so I'd imagine much worse said at the bottom of rucks etc.

Anyway...on a different note.
Do we know which current squad members (or possible selections) are definitely out through injury?

Assuming Ford and Smith won't be available.  Stuart suffered a nasty one so I imagine hes not available.

Is Lawes recovery on plan?

Any other significant injuries? Or will Borthwick pretty much have a full selection to choose from?

mountain man wrote:But if things like that said 1000 times a game or whatever then said comments would inevitably be picked up by ref, mic etc. I'm very surprised how many here seem to be defending Marler.

There's only one mic on the pitch, Plenty of stuff gets said, only a fraction of it gets picked up, and then not too clearly - it's not at all uncommon for the commentators to apologise for some half audible comment or other

Geordie wrote:Anyway...on a different note.
Do we know which current squad members (or possible selections) are definitely out through injury?

Assuming Ford and Smith won't be available.  Stuart suffered a nasty one so I imagine hes not available.

Is Lawes recovery on plan?

Any other significant injuries? Or will Borthwick pretty much have a full selection to choose from?

I don't think Lawes played for Saints at the weekend but he did have a cameo off the bench Vs La Rochelle.

Smith is a doubt for the Scotland game but Ford (and Quirke) are allegedly back just before so may have a game or two to put their hands up for selection.

Stuart out, presumably Cole will come in, in his place.

LCD still injured? Singleton is definitely out and Dolly won't be back in time. So calls to be made at hooker (probably Blamire and McGuigan).

So not too far away from full selection available really then....and on the injured cases we defo have replacements.  

Smith / Ford  - Atkinson,  Fin Smith
Farrell to start at 10

Lawes - Ted Hill, George Martin, Isiekwe, Jack Willis
Or move Curry to 6 and play Earl...

LCD / Singleton - McGuigan/ Blamire

Geordie wrote:So not too far away from full selection available really then....and on the injured cases we defo have replacements.  

Smith / Ford  - Atkinson,  Fin Smith
Farrell to start at 10

Lawes - Ted Hill, George Martin, Isiekwe, Jack Willis
Or move Curry to 6 and play Earl...

LCD / Singleton - McGuigan/ Blamire

I doubt Atkinson will make the squad, he's too raw. It'll be Fin Smith or Joe Simmonds though Simmonds is struggling for form.

George Martin is currently injured so won't be involved and Jack Willis is already in the squad. Isiekwe could be an interesting one to come in though, he's mobile and very good at the lineout.

Is Fin Smith any less raw?

Isiekwe gives flexibility a a 6 / lock aswell.

It's expected to be a 36-man squad including players such as Quirke and Arundell who are rehabbing but could feature in the Six Nations.

Think Fin Smith has the much higher ceiling, is frankly better already and there's also the issue of capping before Scotland try.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think Fin Smith has the much higher ceiling, is frankly better already and there's also the issue of capping before Scotland try.

He's also first choice at his club and playing week in and week out where Atkinson and Bailey are not.

He is new to Saints, but he does look a bit special, a pragmatic version of his name sake. I am not sure how he would fare with, say Farrell in Jones mode. He has either Dingwall or Hutchinson at 12, both who are attacking players that exploit what is in front of them and do not play to a script and thus suit him. When they are on the same wavelength, it is definitely a bit special.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:He is new to Saints, but he does look a bit special, a pragmatic version of his name sake.  I am not sure how he would  fare with, say Farrell in Jones mode. He has either Dingwall or Hutchinson at 12, both who are attacking players that exploit what is in front of them and do not play to a script and thus suit him. When they are on the same wavelength, it is definitely a bit special.

I think there's a script, it's just a beautifully varied one. It's why Sam Vesty is so good, there's so many options for the ball carrier. Get intelligent players in positions where they can select from many options and trust they'll make the right one.

Vesty really would suit England and either Ford or Marcus at 10. Give them options, give them a backline of intelligent players. Happy days.

Fin Smith has done a good job acclimatising to Saints. He didn't get a pre season with the club, he was asked to step in for Dan Biggar almost immediately. He's stepped up and done a good job at only 20. Things to work on of course but great foundations already.

king_carlos wrote:It's expected to be a 36-man squad including players such as Quirke and Arundell who are rehabbing but could feature in the Six Nations.

Let's hope he's finally injury free for a while.

Looks like the squad is together now but just not released.

Twitter post from the RFU (presuming it's not a past pic) shows the 2 Vunipola's, Farrell and Earl. Points for who can guess the arm and shoulder from the other 2 players. 2 camps ongoing yesterday and today but not much more detail than that.

According to Rugby Union weekly pod a lot of players been called in for a chat with coaches as a preliminary but actual squad not announced until 16th.

It's a prelim 45 man squad this week.

2 basic fitness training camps...one yesterday and one today apparently.

Given Borthwick likes to play a high intensity game and likes his players to have a big work rate I suspect one day of suffering is probably enlightening for him and miserable for the guys doing it.

Let's hope more than water carriers come through it.

England defence coach Kevin Sinfield says "friendship and memories" are more important than "money and medals" as he looks to help turn around the side.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64162651

I suspect he's talking from a personal POV rather than speaking for team.

I just want them to win. Don't really care if they're friends or not although that would help of course.

I know I'm not doing anyone any favours by dragging this out but here's the thoughts of 2 ex players. I'm not a fan of their pod but this clip cropped up.
Basically they say they've never heard any player saying such a thing about another players family etc and are amazed the ban not longer. Maybe they are just saying this as now they earn their living from media etc but I don't think so. I think Andy Goode especially is appalled at what was said.
I'm with Goode all the way on his view on this, Marler is a character and is a good player and should be commended for some of the things he does but this way beyond the pale.

Brian Moores take on it "If, core values really do matter, there was no reason to suspend any part of Marler’s sentence. If you claim that worse is said to you on a Sunday morning, and you don’t complain, perhaps it is you that is out of line here".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVarA4PiH0Y

mountain man wrote:I know I'm not doing anyone any favours by dragging this out but here's the thoughts of 2 ex players. I'm not a fan of their pod but this clip cropped up.
Basically they say they've never heard any player saying such a thing about another players family etc and are amazed the ban not longer. Maybe they are just saying this as now they earn their living from media etc but I don't think so. I think Andy Goode especially is appalled at what was said.
I'm with Goode all the way on his view on this, Marler is a character and is a good player and should be commended for some of the things he does but this way beyond the pale.

Brian Moores take on it "If, core values really do matter, there was no reason to suspend any part of Marler’s sentence. If you claim that worse is said to you on a Sunday morning, and you don’t complain, perhaps it is you that is out of line here".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVarA4PiH0Y

Urrgrhhh Goode. Though on a serious point, surely he's completely missed the point here from Marler. I very much doubt it was banter and more trying to get the reaction he did, or a bit more. He talks very early on in his book about trying to rile opponents, either for an aggressive reaction or to simply put people off their game. Be it this, which is frankly tame, the racist abuse he did to Lee ( line very much crossed), Wales targeting Sinckler, none of it is banter, all looking to get an advantage for the team.

Well I and seemingly quite a few current and ex players don't think what he said was tame. Somewhat ironic Marler lauded for his speaking out on mental health etc and then purposely tries to rile opponents with taunts which range from childish to downright disgraceful(imo).

Anyway, enough. I think we must agree to disagree.

mountain man wrote:Well I and seemingly quite a few current and ex players don't think what he said was tame. Somewhat ironic Marler lauded for his speaking out on mental health etc and then purposely tries to rile opponents with taunts which range from childish to downright disgraceful(imo).

Anyway, enough. I think we must agree to disagree.

Well disagree to a point. I'd very happily see WR simply say that we have this spirit of the game thing so if we see any act we deem as an attempt to wind up etc given a penalty and upwards fair enough. Everyone here will have a line at what they would find acceptable (if watching a neutral game, suspect some would find anything towards their own team a travesty). I think what will happen is that players will continue to wind each other up hoping for reactions and sometimes it'll be caught on mic and there may be blow back and sometimes they'll get their wish and see opponents pick up red cards.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:I know I'm not doing anyone any favours by dragging this out but here's the thoughts of 2 ex players. I'm not a fan of their pod but this clip cropped up.
Basically they say they've never heard any player saying such a thing about another players family etc and are amazed the ban not longer. Maybe they are just saying this as now they earn their living from media etc but I don't think so. I think Andy Goode especially is appalled at what was said.
I'm with Goode all the way on his view on this, Marler is a character and is a good player and should be commended for some of the things he does but this way beyond the pale.

Brian Moores take on it "If, core values really do matter, there was no reason to suspend any part of Marler’s sentence. If you claim that worse is said to you on a Sunday morning, and you don’t complain, perhaps it is you that is out of line here".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVarA4PiH0Y

Urrgrhhh Goode. Though on a serious point, surely he's completely missed the point here from Marler. I very much doubt it was banter and more trying to get the reaction he did, or a bit more. He talks very early on in his book about trying to rile opponents, either for an aggressive reaction or to simply put people off their game. Be it this, which is frankly tame, the racist abuse he did to Lee ( line very much crossed), Wales targeting Sinckler, none of it is banter, all looking to get an advantage for the team.

Dont bite....dont bite...dont bite....resist....

Can we keep this one about rugby guys and discuss ethics on another thread...as im libel to get cop myself a ban...

Don't comment and don't risk a ban I guess. As it's an England player getting another ban for on field conduct I think it's on topic though, particularly as we struggled in the scrum in the AIs and many feel he's up there with our best scrummaging loosehead.

No its not a rugby debate anymore...ill resist a comment thanks.

Like it or not disciplinary record and reasons will come into discussion on whether a player should be selection the same as an injury record will!

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:I know I'm not doing anyone any favours by dragging this out but here's the thoughts of 2 ex players. I'm not a fan of their pod but this clip cropped up.
Basically they say they've never heard any player saying such a thing about another players family etc and are amazed the ban not longer. Maybe they are just saying this as now they earn their living from media etc but I don't think so. I think Andy Goode especially is appalled at what was said.
I'm with Goode all the way on his view on this, Marler is a character and is a good player and should be commended for some of the things he does but this way beyond the pale.

Brian Moores take on it "If, core values really do matter, there was no reason to suspend any part of Marler’s sentence. If you claim that worse is said to you on a Sunday morning, and you don’t complain, perhaps it is you that is out of line here".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVarA4PiH0Y

Urrgrhhh Goode. Though on a serious point, surely he's completely missed the point here from Marler. I very much doubt it was banter and more trying to get the reaction he did, or a bit more. He talks very early on in his book about trying to rile opponents, either for an aggressive reaction or to simply put people off their game. Be it this, which is frankly tame, the racist abuse he did to Lee ( line very much crossed), Wales targeting Sinckler, none of it is banter, all looking to get an advantage for the team.

Dont bite....dont bite...dont bite....resist....

Geordie, have you got a deep fried Mars bar in front of you?

Have you ever had one?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cmy5rmKpAO-/?igshid=OGQ2MjdiOTE=

Truly inspiring from Robertson....I think we missed a trick not going for him.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cmy5rmKpAO-/?igshid=OGQ2MjdiOTE=

Truly inspiring from Robertson....I think we missed a trick not going for him.

His heart is with NZ though. I doubt we'd have got him without there being a release clause in his contract to return to the ABs. He comes in and does well at the world cup he'd be back at the ABs by next year. He comes in and doesn't do well then we get to keep him but get an interview with Sir Clive moaning every other day saying we don't need an overseas coach.

Borthwick well known for his inspiring words. Ah the Italian memories.

Geordie wrote:Have you ever had one?

Tried a bit, my family is all from the North East so I was persuaded to try. Not to my taste, but then again, neither are Mars bars.

Now, a deep fried Boost bar might be worth considering.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cmy5rmKpAO-/?igshid=OGQ2MjdiOTE=

Truly inspiring from Robertson....I think we missed a trick not going for him.

His heart is with NZ though. I doubt we'd have got him without there being a release clause in his contract to return to the ABs. He comes in and does well at the world cup he'd be back at the ABs by next year. He comes in and doesn't do well then we get to keep him but get an interview with Sir Clive moaning every other day saying we don't need an overseas coach.

Did you watch it? It's that bad it's funny.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:Have you ever had one?

Tried a bit, my family is all from the North East so I was persuaded to try. Not to my taste, but then again, neither are Mars bars.

Now, a deep fried Boost bar might be worth considering.

More of a Scottish thing than North Eastern. We have a much more cultured palate south of the border.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cmy5rmKpAO-/?igshid=OGQ2MjdiOTE=

Truly inspiring from Robertson....I think we missed a trick not going for him.

His heart is with NZ though. I doubt we'd have got him without there being a release clause in his contract to return to the ABs. He comes in and does well at the world cup he'd be back at the ABs by next year. He comes in and doesn't do well then we get to keep him but get an interview with Sir Clive moaning every other day saying we don't need an overseas coach.

Hea been pretty clear he wants those 2 cycles with 2 teams. Alas not to be. We could still be lucky should his first job be NZ.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:Have you ever had one?

Tried a bit, my family is all from the North East so I was persuaded to try. Not to my taste, but then again, neither are Mars bars.

Now, a deep fried Boost bar might be worth considering.

More of a Scottish thing than North Eastern. We have a much more cultured palate south of the border.

Horden Chippy was the source of the Mars bar. My family tend to eat far too many pies and similar unhealthy foods, they think chips count as healthy veg. Being from the real south, I actually know what salad is, unlike them or if they do, they ignore it. They really are so stereotypical of the comedy version of a "northerner".

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cmy5rmKpAO-/?igshid=OGQ2MjdiOTE=

Truly inspiring from Robertson....I think we missed a trick not going for him.

His heart is with NZ though. I doubt we'd have got him without there being a release clause in his contract to return to the ABs. He comes in and does well at the world cup he'd be back at the ABs by next year. He comes in and doesn't do well then we get to keep him but get an interview with Sir Clive moaning every other day saying we don't need an overseas coach.

Hea been pretty clear he wants those 2 cycles with 2 teams. Alas not to be. We could still be lucky should his first job be NZ.

No he's said he wants to win the world cup with two different teams but one has to the the All Blacks. I just think he'd be using this world cup with us had he joined as an audition for the All Black job.

The NZRU aren't keen on appointing anything less than internationally experienced coaches but the Kiwi fanbase have a very different opinion so should the unpopular Foster fail miserably they might be pressured into a move for a younger more dynamic option.

The only other options are Joseph and Schmidt. Schmidt might be tainted by the Foster association if things go south as well.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:Have you ever had one?

Tried a bit, my family is all from the North East so I was persuaded to try. Not to my taste, but then again, neither are Mars bars.

Now, a deep fried Boost bar might be worth considering.

More of a Scottish thing than North Eastern. We have a much more cultured palate south of the border.

Horden Chippy was the source of the Mars bar. My family tend to eat far too many pies and similar unhealthy foods, they think chips count as healthy veg. Being from the real south, I actually know what salad is, unlike them or if they do, they ignore it. They really are so stereotypical of the comedy version of a "northerner".

Well despite being foem Newcastle and my mother from Glasgow,  I've never had the pleasure.  

I also have a slightly better diet, though I don't mind a dorty kebab once in a while

Ps do any of your family play for Horden RFC....they're a tough side. Played them many a time...and always been a physical battle.

I did try a deep fried Mars bar once just to see what it was like. Disgusting as I recall. Never again!

As for Scott Robertson, well who knows how it would have worked out. I think we have to give Borthwick a fair crack before we start lamenting ones who got away. I'd have liked to seen O'Gara in a coaching role with England but not to be.

i think Borthwick could be very good. People lamenting his style need to realize that most of international rugby isnt all Fijian style...which doesnt win tournaments anyway...

AND the Tigers CAN unleash in attack aswell when they want.

Plus he'll be more respected head of English rugby as he will not be playing stupid games with the press and the opposition all the time.

Hmm, I'm lamenting the style he had at Leicester definitely. I did expect him to develop that once he had the basics but it never came. As with Jones style of play over the last 3 years people were fine overall in 2020 (and there were other things happening then too!) when the results don't come (if they don't) you see how things come unstuck quickly as there is nothing else to back it up. A few people are saying it's results that count, ok but that puts you under a tonne of pressure if the ball bounces wrong. I'm not one for calling for peoples heads on the whole; I'd have kept Johnson and Lancaster on longer. But I do feel Borthwick's England has to offer good entertainment and wins; and that's where I feel Robertson was better placed for where we are now. Borthwick really needs that attack coach in place ASAP, or at the very least demonstrate he knows where Jones went wrong.

The "style" under Jones had been going downhill over the last few years at an alarming rate. We did play some good stuff after he bedded in and solidified the defence and set piece, but it was just a shambles these last few years.

Personally I wanted an English coach (Borthwick, McFarland) or one with strong links to the English game (McCall) so I'm pretty content with how things have turned out. I would have been very disappointed if Robertson (even though the links were quite tedious) was given it due to a number of reasons....thankfully that never happened.

I'm expecting things to tighten up and the basics strengthened and I feel rather optimistic. I think I'm most looking forward to a fresh sweep selection wise and EJ had become slightly crazy in that aspect with little regard for club form, or even International tbh.

Links weren't exactly tenuous, the RFU talked to him and decided to go with Borthwick. Borthwick could do very well but those questions remain, will he get England playing. If he replicates what he did with Leicester he'll fail. The hope is there as he turned Leicester around with the tightening up etc but will he freshen up the squad as a lot want, the names called out are new wingers and Lawrence, or will he go with the guys who were around Jones' camp anyway such as Porter and the guy he's already name checked as a future international (Harry Potter)? That's why I'm still (probably more unsure now then when his name was bandied about) unsure about him. He was the most like Jones from the potential recruits, we could just see the same thing.