Glasgow and Edinburgh 29 - Buckfast & Bollinger

by **George Carlin** Sat 17 Dec 2022, 7:11 am

First topic message reminder :

29 threads. There is officially something wrong with us.

https://www.606v2.com/t70624p1000-glasgow-and-edinburgh-28-and-counting-the-banter-goes-on?ns=7ndk62cdm0w%3D#4069230

by Anglobraveheart Sun 07 May 2023, 10:12 am

BigGee wrote:With Zander, Nel and maybe one of Berghan/Sebastian/Walker all likely to be away with the Scotland squad and then resting at the beginning of the season, we are going to be really tight on servicable props at the begining of next season.

The flip side to this, is that all of the other URC teams will have their international quality props away with national squads. So it should bebour back up guys against 'their' back up guys.
I suppose it'll be a test of depth v depth?

Walker has yet to live up to his potential. Yes he has been injured but has not come out of the Glasgow A team since he has been fit again. I hope he comes good but I am yet to be convinced.

I still imagine both teams may need some reinforcement on the TH front.

by Anglobraveheart Sun 07 May 2023, 10:13 am

I appear to have some sort of quote function malfunction. Doh!

by Anglobraveheart Sun 07 May 2023, 10:16 am

What I tried to say was, with all of our national squad front row players being absent, it'll be the same for all of the other URC teams.
In effect it will be a test of squad depth v squad depth in those positions.

by EWT Spoons Mon 08 May 2023, 9:33 am

Berghan will be calling time on his playing career post the world cup (or pre if he’s not involved). Unless there is a shock late move from the like of Newcastle etc, which given they are hoovering up Scottish players currently, is entirely possible.

He was offered a new contract at Glasgow, but he rejected it, so he’s moving back to Edinburgh, to live, not play, unless the new head coach offers him something I guess and it’s appealing to both sides.

In unrelated news, Blair lost the Edinburgh dressing room, so I’d be surprised if he stays on as coach, as it would seem the players have given up on him. I don’t know if that was pre/post his announcement to step down as head coach, but it’s certainly the case now.

by **RDW** Mon 08 May 2023, 9:53 am

Interesting gossip on Blair. Do you have more detail on what is meant by losing the dressings room in this instance?

by EWT Spoons Mon 08 May 2023, 10:05 am

Nothing else really. Didn't have a chance to ask any follow on questions. All I know is that some senior players basically switched off with him.

I think when you look back at some of his post-match interviews over his time, where he said he was winging it etc, then it's probably easy to see why this would be the case. If you don’t think the coach has a clear idea of what they are doing, and they are basically coming out and saying the same thing, then it’s probably easy to start questioning their methods and not buying into them, especially when results start going against you.

by **RDW** Mon 08 May 2023, 10:35 am

Yeah I did wonder that - he's not exactly exuding confidence in a lot of these interviews.

Still doesn't fully justify the complete collapse of Edinburgh from November onwards though - the players need to take a lot of responsibility too. There is a team full of international players who just haven't performed.

by EWT Spoons Mon 08 May 2023, 11:11 am

100% the players haven’t been good enough and should take their fair share of responsibility. I know it was only one game but the game against Leicester summed up the issues at the club. The players looked thoroughly disinterested and several of them just lacked the level of effort required at that level. Sure, it was very wet, and it was never going to be a classic, but it doesn’t stop the players from working hard for the result and they didn’t turn up.

I also think Blair is too positive. He doesn’t seem to call out players/the team on poor performances. He’s said multiple times that because we’ve managed to get losing bonus points, we’ve been close in games. That’s great but being close is not the same as actually winning, so when we started the slide in Nov, I don’t think he made it clear that was unacceptable. He’s too likable and wants to be folks’ mate rather than their boss.
Which he might recognise in himself given he stepped down from being the boss.

by Tramptastic Mon 08 May 2023, 11:20 am

When its set out like that I think it says more about the players attitude than Blairs inability to coach or player manage.

So, as a probably useless comparison, at amateur level at my club a few seasons ago we got a new coach who really hadn't coached senior rugby before. He was up front about it, he said he had a plan and he wanted to give it his best shot but he'd never done it before. As players we didnt go "oh god, this is going to be awful, we probably shouldnt try", we all got together and said "We will support you the best we can, we will buy in, give feedback and make it work". 1st season was rough, the next season we came 2nd in the league and lost in the final of the east bowl comp.

So at amateur level, we had the maturity to recognise the situation we were in and make the best of it and the determination to try our hardest for each other, the club and our coach.

Now, tell me, why full paid professional athletes can't get on with the job when results are not quite going their way? 1st season with Blair at the helm was great and not a peep was heard from senior players, so why, when the going gets tough do they become disinterested?

by EWT Spoons Mon 08 May 2023, 11:33 am

Tramptastic wrote:When its set out like that I think it says more about the players attitude than Blairs inability to coach or player manage.

So, as a probably useless comparison, at amateur level at my club a few seasons ago we got a new coach who really hadn't coached senior rugby before. He was up front about it, he said he had a plan and he wanted to give it his best shot but he'd never done it before. As players we didnt go "oh god, this is going to be awful, we probably shouldnt try", we all got together and said "We will support you the best we can, we will buy in, give feedback and make it work". 1st season was rough, the next season we came 2nd in the league and lost in the final of the east bowl comp.

So at amateur level, we had the maturity to recognise the situation we were in and make the best of it and the determination to try our hardest for each other, the club and our coach.

Now, tell me, why full paid professional athletes can't get on with the job when results are not quite going their way? 1st season with Blair at the helm was great and not a peep was heard from senior players, so why, when the going gets tough do they become disinterested?

I think the levels are a significant difference here.

At amateur level you’re playing for fun, it’s easy to say “lets get behind him” when ultimately it doesn’t really matter. Sure, you all want to win etc, but if you don’t then nothing really changes.

At pro level you’re playing for your career. If a coach comes in seemingly without a plan and it all goes wrong then you could be out of a job, you might not get called up for the national team with the exposure, contract options, bonuses etc that come with that. Plus, whatever else your own contract at the club says (win bonus etc). I’m not saying they didn’t try under Blair to start with, because they clearly did, last season was very good, but it’s also understandable for things to change if you don’t see the coach having a plan to help turn the tide.

I don’t think the two are comparable really. One means you have a bad weekend if you lose, the other means you could be out of a job/lose money because you are deemed to be a failure.

by Tramptastic Mon 08 May 2023, 11:39 am

Yeh i get that but then when we start talking about their attitudes in certain games it gets a bit messy.

The other thing, as a pro you are also playing for your fans who are paying a good swedge of cash for the evening of watching you, a pro, play. Its one thing having a coach who can't fix it but if your response is "well i shan't bother", what must the fans think?

I'm not saying you are wrong about the amateur and pro comparison but if camaraderie in the face of adversity is still a rugby value at both levels, you'd expect the team to display that irregardless, especially for the (paying) fans

by EWT Spoons Mon 08 May 2023, 12:01 pm

I may have picked you up wrong in your initial post. If it’s about not having faith in a coach and not standing by them, then I don’t think the comparison works. If it’s about trying hard for your teammates/club/fans regardless, then I’m more with you on that. I caveat it slightly, because coming back to it, if the players are not motivated to do their best, then some won’t, especially if they are on a losing streak and are at the stage of wondering what the point is. Some will be mentally tough enough to go out and give it their best regardless, but we’ve seen time and again, with Scotland as well as the pro teams, that if something isn’t working, players need a lift. It’s probably why a sports psychologist has been spoken about on these pages so often.

The Leicester example I called out, was probably a result of a mix of reasons all of which need addressed, but hopefully a new head coach can start the ball rolling on fixing it.

by Tramptastic Mon 08 May 2023, 12:08 pm

Yeh its the motivation in the face of adversity side that always rankles me. Whether the coach is right or wrong, as a player you have responsibilities to your club, your fans and yourself. If senior players dont believe in the coach they still owe it to put their best foot forward to show the young players how to react, they owe it to the paying fans for obvious reasons and, failing all that, they owe it to themselves so that if the club does indeed spiral they can at least have ensure that as an individual they never gave up so that other clubs/team selectors maybe bookmark them for a contract.

by jimbopip Mon 08 May 2023, 2:06 pm

Anglobraveheart wrote:I appear to have some sort of quote function malfunction. Doh!Welcome to my world.

by jimbopip Wed 10 May 2023, 12:10 pm

Glasgow leavers announced; Batman, Berghan (both retiring), Squaddie, Neild and..... Crying or Very sad

Sam Johnson.
Neild was signed as a stopgap and looked useful until he was injured. But back row isvery competitive and if his leaving menas Gregor Brown and Ali Miller are given time to develop then so be it.
Sam Johnson...well, he's long been one of my favourites. He seems to have become third choice 12 after Wee Shona and Stafford. Also, does this clear space for Tuipulotu jnr?
let's wait and see.

by bsando Wed 10 May 2023, 12:36 pm

Sad news about Johnson, he’s a great player and seems to have really made the most of his career opportunities. I think he might have even married a Scot while living in Glasgow. Hope he gets to play a part in the Toulon final.

Also bummed about Forbes. An injury here or there and he would be in the Scotland squad. Assume he’s heading back to NZ?

by jimbopip Wed 10 May 2023, 1:31 pm

bsando, apparently it was chronic homesickness for Forbes. Seems that after the Land Of The Long White Cloud Glasgow is too sunny.

Johnson to the Luvvies? Headscratch

by mikey_dragon Wed 10 May 2023, 1:59 pm

So Townsend staying until 2026, what we all thinking?

by Hazel Sapling Wed 10 May 2023, 2:06 pm

Johnson is a big shame. He had an excellent combination with McDowall and H Jones, and unless Duncan Mann is thought to be ready, it feels at least a season too soon. We are going to be short of centres at the start of the season as well. Maybe he got an offer he couldn't refuse from elsewhere

Berghan on a rugby level has been below par for a while but is not far off the Scotland squad. Rae, Owlett and Millar-Mills may all be available and we probably need a TH for next season with Zander off with Scotland at a minimum.

Neild, Bean and Wilson there are replacements for from the academy. Guys like Brown, Miller, Samuel, Ferrie and Williamson need gametime. Wilson will be sorely missed and interested to see what he does next. If he does go to Edinburgh, maybe he can get the attitude in the pack right

Forbes, it is a shame it went the way of Lambert. We are desperate for SQ wings and finding a replacement will be difficult

by **BigGee** Wed 10 May 2023, 9:52 pm

Forbes is apparently homesick and therefore heading back to NZ.

Bean heading to France and Berghan retiring.

Sam Johnson is the surprise and no word on where he might be heading.

Franco has said that none of them are being let go and there is some player choice in all of these decesions, which is hopefully how it should be.

It does free up a few squad spots for Glasgow next season though. Looking forward to some announcements.

by **BigGee** Thu 11 May 2023, 8:19 am

5 weeks for Tom Jordan, who will therefore unsurprisingly miss the Euro final.

It was at the top end of what he could have expected unfortunately.

by **RDW** Thu 11 May 2023, 10:22 am

BigGee wrote:5 weeks for Tom Jordan, who will therefore unsurprisingly miss the Euro final.

It was at the top end of what he could have expected unfortunately.

Funnily enough he is serving 3 of those games through missing the Super 6 and one game for the Barbarians v Scarlets...!

by **BigGee** Thu 11 May 2023, 10:53 am

RDW wrote:
BigGee wrote:5 weeks for Tom Jordan, who will therefore unsurprisingly miss the Euro final.

It was at the top end of what he could have expected unfortunately.

Funnily enough he is serving 3 of those games through missing the Super 6 and one game for the Barbarians v Scarlets...!

He'll miss the final, that's surely punishment enough!

by bsando Thu 11 May 2023, 12:29 pm

Gee and jimbo, Glasgow fans on fb seem confused about the length of the ban, perhaps you can enlighten them? All I’m going to say is this wouldn’t happen on the Edinburgh socials.

So that leaves the meatball to start against Toulon?

by bsando Thu 11 May 2023, 12:32 pm

jimbopip wrote:bsando, apparently it was chronic homesickness for Forbes. Seems that after the Land Of The Long White Cloud Glasgow is too sunny.

Johnson to the Luvvies?

Yes please! We’ll take dobie too when he’s ready.

by jimbopip Thu 11 May 2023, 12:54 pm

Meatball or the Lesser Spotted Miotti or Stafford.
I wouldn't be utterly shocked by Stafford-Wee Shona-Shug.

by jimbopip Thu 11 May 2023, 3:13 pm

bsando wrote:Gee and jimbo, Glasgow fans on fb seem confused about the length of the ban, perhaps you can enlighten them? All I’m going to say is this wouldn’t happen on the Edinburgh socials.

So that leaves the meatball to start against Toulon?

Bsando, it appears to be 5 weeks. The Diddy/B Cup final, the BaaBaas and 4 Super6 matches. Originally the BCup wasn't listed. As he has a hammy he wouldn't have played any of those matches. He will be available from the start of the season.
Interestingly it was adjudged dangerous enough for a 10 week starting point. The obviously believed that anyone hitting Connor Murray high must be acting pro bono and deliberately attempting to decapitate him .

by TAFKA The Oracle Fri 12 May 2023, 9:38 am

https://www.unitedrugby.com/latest/news/disciplinary-decision-tom-jordan

Fixtures Tom Jordan is unavailable for:

13 May 2023, Super 6 Sprint Series 5

9 May 2023 / 20 May 2023, EPCR Challenge Cup Final / Super 6 Sprint Series 5

27 May 2023, Super 6 Sprint Series Final

31 May 2023, Barbarians v Swansea RFC

29 July 2023, Super 6 Sprint Series 1 (Season 2023 - 2024)

Would he have been likely to play in the Super 6 tournament? Or is that a loophole clubs are able to use (i.e. nominating a different lower level tournament?). Seems iffy to me!

by **BigGee** Fri 12 May 2023, 9:55 am

It is a bit iffy, probably only 2 of those games he would genuinely have played in but he was eligible to have played.

This has been played before by others though and unless they go back to time and not match bans I am not sure there is any way round it.

He will miss the final, so hard to say he is not paying a fairly hefty price for his indiscretion!

by TAFKA The Oracle Fri 12 May 2023, 9:59 am

Yes, true. Missing the final is heart breaking for the player I'm sure.

Just wondering if, for example, a Welsh player could nominate a Welsh semi-pro side in their 'region' as a 2nd side to see out any bans if that side had upcoming fixtures, or an English player nominating a feeder club for their bans? If there's a loophole then we should all be able to use it. Just wondered if it was possible for everyone Smile

by **BigGee** Fri 12 May 2023, 10:08 am

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Yes, true. Missing the final is heart breaking for the player I'm sure.

Just wondering if, for example, a Welsh player could nominate a Welsh semi-pro side in their 'region' as a 2nd side to see out any bans if that side had upcoming fixtures, or an English player nominating a feeder club for their bans? If there's a loophole then we should all be able to use it. Just wondered if it was possible for everyone

I think they probably could, but in most cases it probably would not make much difference as during the season, the region would likely have a game the same day as well.

It is only a quirk of the Super 6 season being played outside of the regular season that has been to his benefit on this occasion.

by **BigGee** Fri 12 May 2023, 3:32 pm

Unsurprisingly Facundo Cordero signs on for another year with Glasgow, given our well publicised back three problems and despite him not managing a game for us since he arrived from Exeter.

McKay signed up for another 2 years yesterday as well and you do imagine we will be getting a few more announcements now that the leavers have been announced. We surely need another centre now that SJ has gone, Tuipolotu Jnr perhaps?

by **George Carlin** Mon 15 May 2023, 8:00 am

Perhaps unsporting of me to say, but I'm delighted that Munster stuck one on Leinster at the weekend.

The Ladyboys have had a monopoly on the league in recent years and it was starting to get boring.

I have no doubt that this means they'll increase their focus on turning La Rochelle over in the ERCC final so that should allow the Irish press to produce another 90 page commemorative booklet about Jonny Sexton and Why He Can Hear Sign Language.

by bsando Mon 15 May 2023, 10:15 am

I think we all feel the same way GC, Healy played a role in that win and having him for the World Cup could turnout to be a very useful point of différence to Russell and Hastings. Leinster are human after all and hopefully that’ll be a good motivator for the top URC clubs next season.

by **BigGee** Mon 15 May 2023, 10:23 am

The Champs Cup final against La Rochelle is certainly no gimme either

Leinster could come away with nothing from this season. They took a big risk rotating as much as they did against Munster and paid the price.

It just shows how hard it is. Even for a club that has the depth of Leinster to compete on 2 fronts at the knockout time of year.

by Oakdene Mon 15 May 2023, 11:53 am

George Carlin wrote:Perhaps unsporting of me to say, but I'm delighted that Munster stuck one on Leinster at the weekend.

The Ladyboys have had a monopoly on the league in recent years and it was starting to get boring.

I have no doubt that this means they'll increase their focus on turning La Rochelle over in the ERCC final so that should allow the Irish press to produce another 90 page commemorative booklet about Jonny Sexton and Why He Can Hear Sign Language.

And they will do that....even though he won't be playing.

by jimbopip Mon 15 May 2023, 4:30 pm

So, not being in the Rees Mogg/James Dyson/FES income bracket and thus unable to afford the myriad of sports channels ( a cut purse of subscriptions?) required to watch Glasgow fail gloriously in every competition I find myself in danger of starring in an episode of Gavin and Stacey.
I was chatting with Bigson and his BFF and wondering where we could watch the game. BFF being a true Essex Boy suggested The Players' Lounge, Billericay. A quick look at its website confirms (a) it shows sports and sells falling over juice (b) it has a shedload of football paraphernalia (c) it's the sort of gaff Smithy and Gavilar have wet dreams over.
What could go wrong?

by Mcsweens Mon 15 May 2023, 9:56 pm

jimbopip wrote:So, not being in the Rees Mogg/James Dyson/FES income bracket and thus unable to afford the myriad of sports channels ( a cut purse of subscriptions?) required to watch Glasgow fail gloriously in every competition I find myself in danger of starring in an episode of Gavin and Stacey.
I was chatting with Bigson and his BFF and wondering where we could watch the game. BFF being a true Essex Boy suggested The Players' Lounge, Billericay. A quick look at its website confirms (a) it shows sports and sells falling over juice (b) it has a shedload of football paraphernalia (c) it's the sort of gaff Smithy and Gavilar have wet dreams over.
What could go wrong?

Make sure you say hi to Fingers, Dirtbox, Deano, and Chinese Allan. God I love Gavin and Stacey so much.

by jimbopip Mon 15 May 2023, 10:08 pm

If it's ladies night I might dance with Pamelar, , Nesssa, Sue and Big Fat Sue.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 15 May 2023, 10:37 pm

jimbopip wrote:So, not being in the Rees Mogg/James Dyson/FES income bracket and thus unable to afford the myriad of sports channels ( a cut purse of subscriptions?) required to watch Glasgow fail gloriously in every competition I find myself in danger of starring in an episode of Gavin and Stacey.

It pains me that you lump me together with Rees Mogg and Dyson. When my ships come in from the colonies I'll own those "new money" losers....

by **George Carlin** Wed 17 May 2023, 8:06 am

Getting the old dry boak about the Euro final. Come on Glasgow, ffs.

I appreciate that Sergio Parisse is 117 years old now and winning would be nice for him but I think that Glasgow deserves it more.

Toulon are not looking all that clever at the moment. 8th in the Top 14 and Finn Russell helped smack them around in last week's game against Racing. This is me trying to talk myself into being positive.

by **BigGee** Wed 17 May 2023, 8:31 am

George Carlin wrote:Getting the old dry boak about the Euro final. Come on Glasgow, ffs.

I appreciate that Sergio Parisse is 117 years old now and winning would be nice for him but I think that Glasgow deserves it more.

Toulon are not looking all that clever at the moment. 8th in the Top 14 and Finn Russell helped smack them around in last week's game against Racing. This is me trying to talk myself into being positive.

The caveat for that George is that unfortunately it was their B team that got stuffed last weekend and they gave their big lads, Cornell du Prez, Big Brian and the venerable Sergio amongst them, the weekend off to prepare.

It seens likely they will be up for this game, they have lost the final twice recently and all their season ticket holders get a free year if they don't win a trophy this year! A clause put into the contract 5 years ago.

The match is going to be a classic of two styles, a big monster French pack against a fast moving counter attacking team.

It is hard to call.

by **BigGee** Wed 17 May 2023, 8:55 am

https://www.606v2.com/t71076-glasgow-v-toulon-european-challenge-cup-final-friday-19th-may-2023#4087299

by **BigGee** Wed 17 May 2023, 1:57 pm

Another year for Fraser Brown

Getting managed a bit better now, less game time with more decent hookers at Glasgow.

Probably a good idea to keep some experience around for the post WC period when we may well be stretched

by **RDW** Wed 17 May 2023, 10:26 pm

https://twitter.com/EdinburghRugby/status/1658775219090104320?t=y0F4Wo9vz3W1jyEODElU5A&s=19

Edinburgh have posted their squad for next season as it currently stands.

9 and 12 are the obvious positions lacking top class players, and again I'm worried about back 3 during international weekends.

Kinghorn listed as a 10!

by bsando Wed 24 May 2023, 12:42 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65694650

This would be fantastic. The top of the league has become a lot more competitive thanks to SA sides. The focus on bringing up the quality of lower ranked sides via a draft system would be a major boost for the league as a whole. And that would act as a new incentive for the super 6 players who might have otherwise missed out in contracts at Edinburgh or Glasgow.

by Oakdene Wed 24 May 2023, 1:46 pm

bsando wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65694650

This would be fantastic. The top of the league has become a lot more competitive thanks to SA sides. The focus on bringing up the quality of lower ranked sides via a draft system would be a major boost for the league as a whole. And that would act as a new incentive for the super 6 players who might have otherwise missed out in contracts at Edinburgh or Glasgow.

Yeah all good until the player realises they've been drafted to one of the regions who offer him a fraction of what they were on...

by bsando Wed 24 May 2023, 6:13 pm

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/10/28/the-huge-financial-sacrifice-afl-clubs-make-to-draft-a-player/

If they do it like they do in the AFL it should ensure player welfare and salaries are adequate for each draftee. It adds another off season interest for us fans too, speculating who will be first pick, who your club might get to bolster the squad. A winner for the players unions too if their players gain valuable experience outside their own setup and challenge the established players for international honours. Especially Italy who really want to make that next step up.

by **BigGee** Wed 24 May 2023, 9:41 pm

I really don't see this as working in the URC and comparing it to American football is comparing apples and oranges.

From the perspectives of the Scottish teams, an important part of their function is to produce players who can play for Scotland. The other constituent parts of the league likely think the same.

This is not Premier League football modrl, where clubs are more important than the international game and create more revenue. In rugby and in particular for the smaller nations that make up the URC, international rugby is the financial lifeblood of the game and diluting our pro teams with other promising players who are not SQi is nog goinv to do us any favours internationally, even if it does improve our pro teams in the short term.

by bsando Thu 25 May 2023, 12:31 pm

Yes if it were to degrade the Scottish setup in anyway then I would agree that it’s a flawed idea. I think as the URC is going through big changes while the English Prem has teams going under it’s good to be pushing change and ensuring a sustainable league. So I think that is the main reason I would be pro draft over status quo for this one. It would really depend on how they set it up and if each respective union feels it’s a good idea moving forwards.

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