[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

Well, it's certainly Wales' gain. I love how all these Welsh guys finally come back home, and there's plenty more yet to come!

You never know which grand father might turn up. Or get invented. Exciting times.

Ooh Vunipola injured.....May answer some hopes and prayers.

Then George is concussed....and it's a clear red card.

Ah the fact he's bowled over saves him. Stupid rule on the passive tackles. Could well be a citing that.

Got to hand it to Saracens, they are doing well to be so close, given the circumstances. I can't imagine them playing as badly in the second half, will be interesting to see what happens.

Daly also went off injured so potentially 2 more injury replacements from today and possibly Lawes.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah the fact he's bowled over saves him. Stupid rule on the passive tackles. Could well be a citing that.

Not IMO he did attempt to wrap and was passive - yellow is right under the rules. could have been red tho

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah the fact he's bowled over saves him. Stupid rule on the passive tackles. Could well be a citing that.

Not IMO he did attempt to wrap and was passive - yellow is right under the rules.  could have been red tho

So...exactly as I said.

How much will Jamie George and Elliot Dailey injjuie be oof concern to the England team to play Scotland in the 6nations be?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Ah man....the inexperienced Chessum is better than Roland's!!! And they'll be sending AWJ out with his Zimmer frame

Who's this Roland bloke you speak of, England's new boy? Will Rowlands is one of the top locks in the 6N, a position held by AWJ for a decade . If Itoje is at 6, England don't have that .

I assume he meant Rowlands, the guy not good enough to play for England?

Rowlands has turned into a decent international lock to be fair Mikey. He's obviously not Itoje, but he does the basics well which is what you need in the engine room.

The irony on you suggesting we could do with him is if he was still in England he would be nowhere the shirt....somewhere around 8-10th choice I would imagine. This is the issue with too large a playing pool, players don't get time to develop or just don't get the chance at the top level.

Rowland's is a consistently strong club lock and a solid international on a good day, invisible international on less good days. Similar to Hill in my opinon. Gatland picking Hill for the Lions squad would suggest even the new/old Wales coach rates Hill higher though I'd consider the two on a similar level.

Beard on the other hand is an absolutely fantastic lock. I'd love to have him as a partner for Itoje in the role Kruis once played. One of the very best set-piece specialists in rugby these days.

Hill was good when he was playing for the Lions, then had a slump in form. He has looked better since joining Sale IMO.

Beard had been poor for most of the season, it's a common theme with him, and instead of carrying to make the hard yards he had a habit of trying to show off his fly-half skills. Beard has recently improved however as have the Ospreys and is a lineout/set-piece specialist as you say. We can probably teach Rowlands that, which if we did Beard could drop out of the 23 through lack of consistency. It took a little while, but Rowlands has been pretty good at everything at international level so far and never has an off day.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah the fact he's bowled over saves him. Stupid rule on the passive tackles. Could well be a citing that.

Not IMO he did attempt to wrap and was passive - yellow is right under the rules.  could have been red tho

So...exactly as I said.

No chance it'll be a citing and if there was it would be dismissed. By the letter of the current interpretations the referee's decision was spot on. Whether Jamie George is going to be fit or not might be more of a question.

I suspect that Hill is well suited to the relatively straightforward game plans espoused by the Chiefs, Sharks and Gatland’s Lions, but struggled with what Eddie was asking of his forwards - which to be fair applied to pretty much the whole pack in the AIs. Borthwick might be able to get more out of him. I saw a comment over the weekend that said Eddie was interested in trends whereas Borthwick is much more about detail.

For me, that explains some of Eddie’s selections, and especially the players who underperformed or were discarded. The players who prospered under Eddie were those who could both read a dynamic situation and respond to it in the way Eddie wanted them to. You can see how, say, Itoje or Farrell would fit well in that scenario, but why he failed to get the most out of Hill and why he ultimately couldn’t get on with Care.

Squidge’s analysis of the NZ game made the point that England were trying to run some very complex patterns that could flick between two different configurations in an instant and it was clear that only some of the time were all the players getting where they needed to be. The current squad has a mix of players whose reading of the game is good enough to get this (e.g. Mako, Itoje, Dombrandt, JVP, Marchant, Murley, Daly) and some who will probably need more precise instructions.

It’s going to be interesting to see how Borthwick and Evans combine for the 6N. Borthwick is going to have the precise instructions; Evans is much more about creating the conditions for players with vision to shine. If they can work out rapidly which players need which type of instructions, I could see it gel. Equally, it could be a mess.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Ah man....the inexperienced Chessum is better than Roland's!!! And they'll be sending AWJ out with his Zimmer frame

Who's this Roland bloke you speak of, England's new boy? Will Rowlands is one of the top locks in the 6N, a position held by AWJ for a decade . If Itoje is at 6, England don't have that .

IIRC Roland was the headless Thompson gunner. I do believe done in by Van Owen...who sounds suspiciously Bok to me.

So......McGuigan and Lawes out, Dunn and Ribbans in.

A better hooker and a better lock, win win, although Lawes will be tough to replace at 6.

Possibly suggests that Lawes was being considered more as a lock than flanker though? Ribbans could well find himself that odd selection that now finds himself in the starting lineup. Dunn is good but I am surprised that Blamire hasn't been called up ahead of him. I'm ever so slightly concerned that we have a couple of hookers, excellent around the field, Dunn particularly good at the breakdown, good scrummagers but slightly dodgy lineouts at times.

I agree, Blamire is a better option but does have some issues with his darts......maybe a problem for Borthwick.

Not sure why you would go with Dunn over Blamire. Blamires form has been good...and his throwing is clearly being worked on...improving alot.

Not sure why Dunn over Blamire - it may be a question of style of player.

Walker's darts have been good when he's had an experienced lock pairing to throw to, but Quins have had so many injuries to their locks this season that it's been a different (and usually inexperienced) pair most weeks. LO was good vs the Sharks (who are no slouches in that department) with Lewies back calling the shots.

And to the earlier discussion about whether a mobile pack can cope with the Boks - the Quins / Sharks game gave a hint of how to do that. A fast and committed pack manage to contain one with 3 RWC winners in it - admittedly in a match the Sharks didn't have to win (and dodgy caterpillar binds notwithstanding). The key caveat from an England perspective was that there was a top notch scummaging front row on the Quins side, though.

Suspect this means Hill starting in 2nd row and Ribbans bench.
Shame about McGuigan though, he deserved his chance. Hopefully not a serious injury.

mountain man wrote:Suspect this means Hill starting in 2nd row and Ribbans bench.
Shame about McGuigan though, he deserved his chance. Hopefully not a serious injury.

Well, I guess I will see whether my theory about Eddie's style vs Borthwick's holds any water...

Vunipola and Daly still being assessed too according to Chris Jones.

We can live without Vunipola and Daly. George will be tough to lose given we are already missing LCD. As said by others Blamire would seem an obvious choice to come in but maybe he'll get a call up if George drops out.

Maybe they'll bring in a LH who can scrummage...

The situation with the hookers feels a little reminiscent of the Youngs/ Care dominance of the 9 postion, it is going to feel a little strange seeing anybody else in there. I guess given that LCD and George are either in their 30s or heading off to France, it is good to start looking for a new alternative before they disappear over the horizon.

Tom Dunn is 30!

Geordie wrote:Tom Dunn is 30!

I was more thinking about Jack Walker and further down the line Jamie Blamire, something is going to give and I don't see Dunn being a longer term option. However, I agree we could really do with a younger guy appearing who is dead on in the set piece and retains the physicality to excel at international rugby.

I think Dunn fits the Borthwick Scotland game plan better than Blamire - I expect us to try and grind out dominance at the scrums and lineouts with plenty of kicking to get territory and apply pressure.  To that end I expect Chessum to be at 6 with Ribbans brought in to bolster second row numbers.

Sharkey06 wrote:I think Dunn fits the Borthwick Scotland game plan better than Blamire - I expect us to try and grind out dominance at the scrums and lineouts with plenty of kicking to get territory and apply pressure.  To that end I expect Chessum to be at 6 with Ribbans brought in to bolster second row numbers.

I was surprised, not sure Dunn is more of a fit than Blamire really as Borthwick tended towards Montoya and Dolly as his preferred hookers who are both very mobile. I am guessing that Borthwick feels more comfortable with the experience and leadership in his third choice hooker whilst he knows Jamie George will be undergoing the HIA protocols. Blamire will be playing for Falcons and developing there.

I'd also note that McGuigan who Dunn replaced isn't exactly the type of hooker you select for set piece domination.

I actually never thought of Dunn as an international. And certainly want someone younger. Or is hooker another position where we are lacking England depth?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Possibly suggests that Lawes was being considered more as a lock than flanker though?

More likely that Isiekwe is the next option at 6 with Ribbans adding a lock so Isiekwe can switch.

When's the last time that Lawes started a game of professional rugby at lock out of interest?

doctor_grey wrote:I actually never thought of Dunn as an international.  And certainly want someone younger.   Or is hooker another position where we are lacking England depth?

Here's a good stat I saw, Hartley, George or LCD started 78 of 81 tests under Jones. And played 6181 minutes of a possible 6480 under hss tenure. From Charlie Morgan.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Possibly suggests that Lawes was being considered more as a lock than flanker though?

More likely that Isiekwe is the next option at 6 with Ribbans adding a lock so Isiekwe can switch.

When's the last time that Lawes started a game of professional rugby at lock out of interest?

World Cup I'd say. He obviously basically played there from the off vs Ireland last year.

I don't think Lawes can be classed as a lock anymore, he seemingly only sees himself as a 6 who can occasionally fill in there from reports.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think Lawes can be classed as a lock anymore, he seemingly only sees himself as a 6 who can occasionally fill in there from reports.

Up to people to decide if he has the skill set to play there now. I think that Ireland game produced the best performance from our pack since the WC, the games either side meh. For me clearly, he's a lock or nothing as the balance to the back row goes squint. I would rather see 2 out and out flankers, particularly against Scotland.

Lawes is a better 2nd row than 6 but he himself prefers 6 and I think he's a bit too lightweight for 2nd row now. I think he struggles to maintain mass anyway.
Anyway, out of our hands as it's up to coach to put him where he sees best. Plus he's currently injured.
The other side is if he's in 2nd row that frees up 6 for someone else which is what I'd like to see.

All this talk of a big 6...watch it'll be...

6 Willis
7 Earl
8 Dombrandt

Smash them at the breakdown etc

Geordie wrote:All this talk of a big 6...watch it'll be...

6 Willis
7 Earl
8 Dombrandt

Smash them at the breakdown etc

That is the backrow I'd have.

Geordie wrote:All this talk of a big 6...watch it'll be...

6 Willis
7 Earl
8 Dombrandt

Smash them at the breakdown etc

That doesn't really look like a Borthwick backrow, but time will tell I guess. I personally wouldn't have Willis near the starting XV....especially at 6.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:All this talk of a big 6...watch it'll be...

6 Willis
7 Earl
8 Dombrandt

Smash them at the breakdown etc

That doesn't really look like a Borthwick backrow, but time will tell I guess. I personally wouldn't have Willis near the starting XV....especially at 6.

I live in hope that it will be. You never know if the other coaches or more options will move him away for the lump at 6. Shall we put Willis on the vP and Kelly pile for you sarge!

Still no more news as to whether Daly and Vunipola are ok or not that I've seen, must be relatively serious but still touch and go.

Put him where you want 7.5.

We all have our favourites and players we don't think are quite up to standard......opinions eh.

Blamire and Lawrence in for George and Daly.

From the England Rugby Faceache page.

No mention of Mako.

Mr Bounce wrote:Blamire and Lawrence in for George and Daly.

From the England Rugby Faceache page.

No mention of Mako.

Good. Lawrence should have been in before and I guess Blamire needed as hookers dropping like flies.

Some justifiable. Some less so! George out, Blamire in. Daly out, Lawrence in. Some of these injuries are making us slightly stronger in my view. I would have preferred George to stay though.

George is the best hooker in England, and one of the best in the world. Hes simply a Class act. I dont really worry about losing LCD..but i do about George.

Blamire is a work in progress but can be very good. Hes playing very well at the moment in a pack that is beginning to dominate some good packs...but lacks some consistency (but the falcons themselves are a work in progress under new coaches)

Seriously glad to see Lawrence in the mix now. Hope he gets a chance during the 6n and really takes it.

My perception is that Blamire is very good in the scum, don't remember him in a struggling one anyway?

He is 7.5
Hes good around the park...his stumbling block has probably been his arrows...but its clear thats being worked on.

Id still like to see him put a few pounds on though. He really did lose alot of visible size during the summer.

No 7&1/2 wrote:My perception is that Blamire is very good in the scum, don't remember him in a struggling one anyway?

He's a big strong boy for sure. Nearest hooker I like comparing him to Marx...maybe not quite as good. He has bags of potential when/if his arrows straighten.