[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

by king_carlos Sat 07 Jan 2023, 11:55 am

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 07 Feb 2023, 9:37 am

Where is Hartley these days? He looked like he had potential.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 10:10 am

TJ wrote:As a Scots fan - englands ruck speed was much faster than Scotlands according to the on screen stats. Youngs box kicking is surely done to instruction

No 10 plays totally off the cuff / what is in front of them. Russell certainly does not - a lot of pre planned moves where the aim is to get Russell into a position he has 2 or 3 choices of what to do. He will also call the plays to the other backs so they know whats coming

Englands issue to me was that 1) there was only one option for the passer most of the time and 2) no wrap around etc to create an overlap

From early on in the game it was obvious england were going after Russell to cut down his time / space and options which was countered by a quick miss pass getting Scotland outside the blitz and stopping the drift or by Russell attempting the pass out of the tackle to a close player

Where England lost the game was in the tactics played. Scotland were able to create mismatches and space in the backs. England rarely were able to do so.

Late on in the game Smith appeared to get frustrated with the lack of options so kept on trying to create something on his own - the problem being the rest of the team are not on the same wavelength and he ran up blind alleys too often

Well, I doubt if it was tactically the coaches said to do it as badly as Youngs does. Individual mistakes led to England's loss, be it Malins being lazy, Malins shooting out the line and not getting to the ball, kick chase errors and missed tackles.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 10:12 am

The final part (I think) of the coaching team coming together with news Cockerill is leaving (definitely) and that Peel will come in as scrum coach (apparently).

by Geordie Tue 07 Feb 2023, 10:16 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Where is Hartley these days? He looked like he had potential.

Saracens Academy Sgt hes still only 19 i think. Been playing in all the cup games for them...at 12. If hes going to make it...then hes surely at the right club. 6'4, 15stone

Seb Atkinson is at the other end of the scale physically 5'10, 14 stone...but he seems to have started his Glucester carreer nicely...some good reviews.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 10:25 am

Kelly won't be ignored just because he's injured now. We then have options on Tuilagi and Lawrence, you can argue they're both 13 but think they have the skillset to play there. Given Esterhuizen is off at the end of the season you'd imagine it will give Anyanwu another run in the team too. Raw but looked very impressive in his previous run. Then as you say Ojomoh, very much like the look of him. Plenty of options, particularly from the new season.

Kelly for me is the next cab, I think he's Nonu and Greenwood wrapped into one, and will captain the Lions next time around and score a hattrick in the WC final before being knighted.

by Geordie Tue 07 Feb 2023, 10:38 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kelly won't be ignored just because he's injured now. We then have options on Tuilagi and Lawrence, you can argue they're both 13 but think they have the skillset to play there. Given Esterhuizen is off at the end of the season you'd imagine it will give Anyanwu another run in the team too. Raw but looked very impressive in his previous run. Then as you say Ojomoh, very much like the look of him. Plenty of options, particularly from the new season.

Kelly for me is the next cab, I think he's Nonu and Greenwood wrapped into one, and will captain the Lions next time around and score a hattrick in the WC final before being knighted.

I would hope not. He was the 12 for Premiership winning team at a young age and looks an alround quality young player to develop.

Yes Anwanyu is a one to watch definitely.

by dummy_half Tue 07 Feb 2023, 10:38 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kelly won't be ignored just because he's injured now. We then have options on Tuilagi and Lawrence, you can argue they're both 13 but think they have the skillset to play there. Given Esterhuizen is off at the end of the season you'd imagine it will give Anyanwu another run in the team too. Raw but looked very impressive in his previous run. Then as you say Ojomoh, very much like the look of him. Plenty of options, particularly from the new season.

Kelly for me is the next cab, I think he's Nonu and Greenwood wrapped into one, and will captain the Lions next time around and score a hattrick in the WC final before being knighted.

Or perhaps the next James Simpson-Daniel, who was even better than that (allegedly) but never got on the field for England.

by Geordie Tue 07 Feb 2023, 10:40 am

Ah Simpson Daniel....what a sublime player....

by mountain man Tue 07 Feb 2023, 10:44 am

The bigger question is who is 12 for rest of this 6N. It surely cannot continue to be Farrell. I think Slade is more suited to 13 but suspect if anyone it'll be him if not Farrell.
Given availability I would start Manu at 12, yes I know England need to move on from him and I've said that but running out of viable options on a solid 12.
Given who is in squad I would have JvP Farrell Manu Lawrence at 9 10 12 13. Smith bench along with Marchant.
It almost certainly won't be but that's who I'd play.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 10:47 am

Lawrence to me did look good when he came, immediately looked more of a handful than Marchant.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 07 Feb 2023, 11:02 am

dummy_half wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Kelly won't be ignored just because he's injured now. We then have options on Tuilagi and Lawrence, you can argue they're both 13 but think they have the skillset to play there. Given Esterhuizen is off at the end of the season you'd imagine it will give Anyanwu another run in the team too. Raw but looked very impressive in his previous run. Then as you say Ojomoh, very much like the look of him. Plenty of options, particularly from the new season.

Kelly for me is the next cab, I think he's Nonu and Greenwood wrapped into one, and will captain the Lions next time around and score a hattrick in the WC final before being knighted.

Or perhaps the next James Simpson-Daniel, who was even better than that (allegedly) but never got on the field for England.

Ah the elusive JSD....another player who improved every time he missed an England game (and he missed a lot!). I don't think Kelly is quite at that level yet mind....

by Geordie Tue 07 Feb 2023, 11:05 am

mountain man wrote:The bigger question is who is 12 for rest of this 6N. It surely cannot continue to be Farrell. I think Slade is more suited to 13 but suspect if anyone it'll be him if not Farrell.
Given availability I would start Manu at 12, yes I know England need to move on from him and I've said that but running out of viable options on a solid 12.
Given who is in squad I would have JvP Farrell Manu Lawrence at 9 10 12 13. Smith bench along with Marchant.
It almost certainly won't be but that's who I'd play.

Sadly you might actually be right. Cant believe im saying that about manu either.

Or Slade at 12...but ....

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 11:11 am

I've only ever seen anyone say that Kelly is the best England centre to emerge for the last 50 years though, and that's massively underplaying it. Considering how good he is I'm surprised anyone considers him as being over egged, quite simply he will go onto be the best player the world has ever seen.

by dummy_half Tue 07 Feb 2023, 11:13 am

Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:The bigger question is who is 12 for rest of this 6N. It surely cannot continue to be Farrell. I think Slade is more suited to 13 but suspect if anyone it'll be him if not Farrell.
Given availability I would start Manu at 12, yes I know England need to move on from him and I've said that but running out of viable options on a solid 12.
Given who is in squad I would have JvP Farrell Manu Lawrence at 9 10 12 13. Smith bench along with Marchant.
It almost certainly won't be but that's who I'd play.

Sadly you might actually be right. Cant believe im saying that about manu either.

Or Slade at 12...but ....

It's alwats loked like 12 should be Slade's natural position - sound defender, good passing and kicking game and can take the ball into contact when needed. The attributes all look to be there, but he hardly ever plays the position at club level, and on the odd occasion he's spent time there for England he's looked a bit lost.
Can we not just invent a time machine and kidnap a 25 year old Will Greenwood?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 11:31 am

Started off as a 10 but moved ever further out, and now part time 15 under Jones. Just doesn't have the time on the ball at 12 to be effective for me. The criticisms of Farrell would all be there but multiplied for Slade at 12 I think.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 07 Feb 2023, 1:35 pm

Telegraph journalists seem convinced Borthwick had originally intended to play Farrell at 10, with Kelly and Slade outside. Among his other attributes, Kelly was familiar with Sinfield's defensive plan.

Listening to a lot of the pundit podcasts, there seems to be a mix of surprise and disappointment that the England players didn't manage to raise their game for a new coaching team.

Many of us thought reaching the 2019 World Cup final should be a stepping stone to an era of consistent excellence. Maybe we ought to look back at that tournament as a time of outperformance, when a number of other leading title contenders were off their game.

by eirebilly_01 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 1:47 pm

Personally, I Didn't think that England played that badly. A few players looked rusty (Itoje looked very gassed) but otherwise i thought that England were simply beaten by a more settled team. There were very good signs for England going forward.

That said, I never have or ever will see Farrell as a 12. He is either a 10 or not playing for me.

I read alot of negative comments about JvP but again, I thought he had a decent game. His substitution for Youngs took any momentum England had away for me.

by Sharkey06 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 1:58 pm

I think it was a game we managed to lose rather than us being a poor team.

• Someone needs to tell Steve Borthwick that Ben Curry isn’t Tom Curry
• Dombrandt needs England to play a Harlequins type of game to be effective which isn’t going to happen
• Smith and Farrell don’t go together like a horse and carriage
• Malins isn’t a winger

If we hadn’t made these ‘mistakes’ then I think we would have won. Win a couple of games and the confidence rises and you start to look a better team.

by Geordie Tue 07 Feb 2023, 2:20 pm

So Wigglesworth and Aled Walters will join the England squad ahead of the World CUp...

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 07 Feb 2023, 2:32 pm

Tim from Eggchasers looks at the England centre options.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 2:38 pm

Geordie wrote:So Wigglesworth and Aled Walters will join the England squad ahead of the World CUp...

....Wigglesworth as the attack coach? Merely states assistant in the press release. That may be terrible.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 07 Feb 2023, 2:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:So Wigglesworth and Aled Walters will join the England squad ahead of the World CUp...

....Wigglesworth as the attack coach? Merely states assistant in the press release. That may be terrible.

Walters as S&C coach will be huge benefit.

I hope Wigglesworth isn't the attack coach of choice.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 2:50 pm

Yeah...can't say that looking in on Leicester's attack either post or during Borthwick sets the heart aflame. Just filling in the blanks though, are there any other obvious roles?

by mountain man Tue 07 Feb 2023, 2:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah...can't say that looking in on Leicester's attack either post or during Borthwick sets the heart aflame. Just filling in the blanks though, are there any other obvious roles?

It is obvious, Wigglesworth is there to ensure Ben Youngs gets another 50 caps.

by Geordie Tue 07 Feb 2023, 3:07 pm

It says Wigglesworth as assisntant coach.

by hugehandoff Tue 07 Feb 2023, 3:07 pm

If Nick Evans is only for 6Ns and Wigglesworth takes over the attack then we can all look forward to some lovely ariel stuff....hope the chase is a lot better than Saturday

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 3:27 pm

It's always slightly awkward with the timing of these appointments. If Evans turns England's attack around (decent start) and we bring in another attack coach, there's real pressure on that guy if it goes back to stodge.

by doctor_grey Tue 07 Feb 2023, 3:30 pm

hugehandoff wrote:If Nick Evans is only for 6Ns and Wigglesworth takes over the attack then we can all look forward to some lovely ariel stuff....hope the chase is a lot better than Saturday

Wiggly does love his box kicks.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 3:31 pm

mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah...can't say that looking in on Leicester's attack either post or during Borthwick sets the heart aflame. Just filling in the blanks though, are there any other obvious roles?

It is obvious, Wigglesworth is there to ensure Ben Youngs gets another 50 caps.

I'm too fragile for these jokes.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 3:33 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:If Nick Evans is only for 6Ns and Wigglesworth takes over the attack then we can all look forward to some lovely ariel stuff....hope the chase is a lot better than Saturday
Wiggly does love his box kicks.

Maybe he can convince Borthwick to pick himself over Youngs? I'd take that tbh.

by Geordie Tue 07 Feb 2023, 3:57 pm

Was Wigglesworth SB's assistant at Tigers?

by king_carlos Tue 07 Feb 2023, 4:06 pm

Walters should be a great addition. The job he did of getting the Boks and Tigers squad both on the park and in incredible shape is impressive. For a RWC run in and tournament he's a fairly ideal addition. When playing lots of games at 100% in short succession keeping your best players available is a lot of the battle. It's one of the reasons the Boks were so potent come the knockouts. Being able to rotate their two world class tight fives early in the second half meant that their forwards were very fresh.

by king_carlos Tue 07 Feb 2023, 4:09 pm

Geordie wrote:Was Wigglesworth SB's assistant at Tigers?

Attack coach.

The 'assistant' thing might be a case of folk just reading too much into wording though. There's only two roles left to fill longer term with Walters in charge of S&C. Attack coach and scrum coach. It's not like Wigglesworth is going to be assisting with the scrum! Which leaves attack coach as his clear role regardless of the title.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 7:02 pm

Playing spot the bib colours in training again.

Sinckler farrell dombrandt itoje slade arundell are starting.

by king_carlos Tue 07 Feb 2023, 8:12 pm

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Ludlam 7.Earl 8.Dombrandt
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.Walker 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Isiekwe 20.Willis 21.Mitchell 22.Smith 23.Marchant

I'd probably pick that from the squad available.

Given how quickly Arundell has been a recalled I'm a touch surprised Quirke hasn't been looked at too.

I'm really not convinced by Dombrandt. He just looks a bit lost against international defences. The speed with which they reset mean the gaps around the ruck Dombrandt usually exploits for Quins are very rarely there. He then just seems to be running into a brick wall ineffectively. Personally feel that Mercer has a bit more to his game so hope he can come back in over the summer.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 07 Feb 2023, 9:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's always slightly awkward with the timing of these appointments. If Evans turns England's attack around (decent start) and we bring in another attack coach, there's real pressure on that guy if it goes back to stodge.

Unless of course Wigglesworth is coming in as a skills coach of some sort to help the transition from our 100 and something capped scrum half to some younger greener options. Could work under a more experienced attack coach like the rumoured Vesty or Evans. Maybe I'm just clutching at straws, we'll see.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 07 Feb 2023, 11:00 pm

king_carlos wrote:Given how quickly Arundell has been a recalled I'm a touch surprised Quirke hasn't been looked at too.

Telegraph says Arundell played a part in preparations for the Scotland match. Presumably, that puts him a step ahead of Quirke.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 08 Feb 2023, 4:38 am

king_carlos wrote:1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Ludlam 7.Earl 8.Dombrandt
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.Walker 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Isiekwe 20.Willis 21.Mitchell 22.Smith 23.Marchant

I'd probably pick that from the squad available.

Given how quickly Arundell has been a recalled I'm a touch surprised Quirke hasn't been looked at too.

I'm really not convinced by Dombrandt. He just looks a bit lost against international defences. The speed with which they reset mean the gaps around the ruck Dombrandt usually exploits for Quins are very rarely there. He then just seems to be running into a brick wall ineffectively. Personally feel that Mercer has a bit more to his game so hope he can come back in over the summer.

That looks a bit more like it (bar JVP perhaps).

I'm tending to agree with you on Dombrandt. He seems to struggle with the physicality of Int rugby and his iffy defence is getting highlighted each game it seems. He's approaching the 10 cap mark which is a good indication of if a player has the cahunas to step up........has he showed anything so far?

by formerly known as Sam Wed 08 Feb 2023, 7:58 am

A bit on the Chessum's via Mrs Chessum.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11724405/amp/Mum-Ollie-Lewis-Chessum-reveals-pride-Leicester-Tigers-pair-set-England-stardom.html

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 08 Feb 2023, 8:43 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:A bit on the Chessum's via Mrs Chessum.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11724405/amp/Mum-Ollie-Lewis-Chessum-reveals-pride-Leicester-Tigers-pair-set-England-stardom.html

3 ginger kids.......at what point do you stop trying?

by Geordie Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:09 am

Telegraph reporting Willis in for Curry

by No 7&1/2 Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:14 am

Considerable step up if that's the case. Watson rumoured to take the other wing slot as well as Arundell so in turn I'd imagine H-C drops out completely which I still think is very harsh from the team but understandable from a bench perspective.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:16 am

Arundell and Watson are different level to the two dropped.

Bit odd if Willis leapfrogs Earl....I don't really see the positives in that one. Willis is much of a likeness for Ben Curry really.

by mountain man Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:24 am

Happy to see Arundell and Watson in, Curry hardly set world alight so Willis can have a go. Earl definitely needs to be in team. Assume Dombrandt be 8 as not many other options there.
Now to the easy bit, who's 9 10 12 13....

by No 7&1/2 Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:29 am

Willis is miles better than Curry. He'll actually slow and steal ball at the breakdown! I want Dombrandt to continue, think they guys class. Dropped too many balls on Saturday but his runs helped us along the way to 2 of the tries.

mm, from the look of training Farrell starts, Slade starts...just don't think the balance of the midfield is right if we then go Smith, will be Tuilagi or Lawrence I reckon. vP played well so can't imagine he will be dropped.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:42 am

I think Ben Curry is a better player than Willis personally, not by much mind....they're quite similar.

If that's JVP playing well, we're in trouble. I really hope Mitchell comes in to start or at least a bench spot, he's a cut above. I could see him nailing the shirt if he gets any kind decent run in the side.

by mountain man Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:42 am

Well as I said yesterday my picks be JvP Farrell Manu Lawrence at 9 10 12 13 but doubt it will be.

Will Farrell be 10 or 12 is the thing. If Slade starts is he at 12 or 13? I'm asking what Borthwick will do not what I'd do.
He could go JvP Farrell Slade Lawrence maybe. Guess we'll find out Friday.

by mountain man Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:44 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think Ben Curry is a better player than Willis personally, not by much mind....they're quite similar.

If that's JVP playing well, we're in trouble. I really hope Mitchell comes in to start or at least a bench spot, he's a cut above. I could see him nailing the shirt if he gets any kind decent run in the side.

I'd definitely have Mitchell in instead of Youngs be it bench or start with JvP other 9.

by Collapse2005 Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:45 am

mountain man wrote:Well as I said yesterday my picks be JvP Farrell Manu Lawrence at 9 10 12 13 but doubt it will be.

Will Farrell be 10 or 12 is the thing. If Slade starts is he at 12 or 13? I'm asking what Borthwick will do not what I'd do.
He could go JvP Farrell Slade Lawrence maybe. Guess we'll find out Friday.

I reckon Borthwick will go with something like that from here on in.

I can see JVP and Farrell being the world cup 9 and 10 and Lawrence, Kelly, Slade and Tuilagi being the centre options for the world cup with Smith being out half cover.

by dummy_half Wed 08 Feb 2023, 9:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Willis is miles better than Curry. He'll actually slow and steal ball at the breakdown! I want Dombrandt to continue, think they guys class. Dropped too many balls on Saturday but his runs helped us along the way to 2 of the tries.

mm, from the look of training Farrell starts, Slade starts...just don't think the balance of the midfield is right if we then go Smith, will be Tuilagi or Lawrence I reckon. vP played well so can't imagine he will be dropped.

Agree, you don't want your 10 to be the biggest ball carrying threat of your midfield - have to have someone either to punch holes or to exploit them with pace and elusiveness (ideally, a bit of both, which Manu at his best could do). Especially when your scrum half isn't taking on some of the burden by sniping round the fringes.

Actually through JvP had a decent game in terms of doing the basics - got to rucks quickly and got the ball away generally quite accurately. OK, I recall one knock on at the base of a attacking ruck early on, and I think his kick in the lead up to the DvdM try was too long / lacked hang time (or should have been out for a throw in), but generally he seemed to get players running off him quite effectively. Not brilliant, but a 6 or 7 out of 10 performance.

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