[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

mountain man wrote:.
If Manu in the highly likely scenario gets injured(!) then yes maybe have to revert to Farrell at 12.

Fixed that for you.

Ha yeah hence my ! when I put highly unlikey. Thinks he's vying with Halfpenny for title of most fragile player.

Leigh Halfpenny is 34 and has 97 Wales caps.  Johnny Sexton is 37 (38 in July) and has 110 Irish caps to his name.  You don't hear too many Irish fans calling for Sexton to be dropped because he breaks quite regularly.

Any player is just one game away from a career ending injury - Tom Rees, Jack Clifford, etc.  If Manu is fit let's just pick him, it isn't as if we have a queue of players ready to replace him.

Sharkey06 wrote:Leigh Halfpenny is 34 and has 97 Wales caps.  Johnny Sexton is 37 (38 in July) and has 110 Irish caps to his name.  You don't hear too many Irish fans calling for Sexton to be dropped because he breaks quite regularly.

Any player is just one game away from a career ending injury - Tom Rees, Jack Clifford, etc.  If Manu is fit let's just pick him, it isn't as if we have a queue of players ready to replace him.

The difference is that Manu regularly gets injured during his international appearances; he has in the past really struggled to stay fit for a full game. He seems to have improved that a bit now, but at the expense of losing some of what made him special.

I think Farrell is a safe but boring option. I think Smith will make more mistakes but it's more capable of creating opportunities against the best opponents.

We are not going to win the biggest prizes with Farrell.

lostinwales wrote:I think Farrell is a safe but boring option. I think Smith will make more mistakes but it's more capable of creating opportunities against the best opponents.

We are not going to win the biggest prizes with Farrell.

I think Smith got a bit frustrated last week when he'd find himself receiving the ball at 12 but he didn't have the runners & had to try & go himself.

How does Lozowski not get in the team? One of England’s best midfielders along with Marchant, Slade… haven’t seen enough of Lawrence to comment but by all accounts, he’s good.

Now England cannot win the win the Grand Slam or Triple cown will we see many changes in the England team dor this week ends game? or will we see the same Smith Farrell 10/12 combo?

majesticimperialman wrote:Now England cannot win the win the Grand Slam or Triple cown will we see many changes in the England team dor this week ends game? or will we see the same  Smith Farrell 10/12 combo?

Mate, no one wants to see a Smith-Farrell combination.  At least, no one outside the bubble of the RFU does.  

If Borthwick and the RFU think it is OK to break up the unhappy couple, then the big question is whether Borthwick will stage a direct competition for the 10 spot.  And a fair test would be 2 Six Nations games with Farrell at 10 and Smith on the bench (and hopefully real centres) and the other two games with Smith starting and Farrell on the bench.  To me Farrell outside Smith is a non-starter:  Farrell is too slow and ponderous playing 12 outside Smith and he got in Smith's way a few times.    

Nah, makes too much sense.

Hey Doc! I like the Smith/Farrell combo!

Interesting news coming out from camp...Smith/Farrell was the preferred combination and Kelly was never in for a start, fit or not.

Papers all seem to think Smith to bench and Farrell/Slade/Lawrence midfield.

A guy like Lawrence or Tuilagi gives a better option with 2 playmaker (if we can call Slade that). Really don't get dropping Smith though.

Why do i get an Italy win all over this one....

I'd be surprised Geordie. Bar some horrific individual errors we'd have beaten Scotland with a newly installed coach last week. I was pleasantly surprised at the attack, and it's another week working on scrums, mauls and remembering to tackle people. Youngs dropping out improves us, but I do remain on the edge of my seat at the midfield choice.

I just think we have a weak underbelly at the moment, are disjointed and Italy are playing good stuff and are aggressive.

i Just cant help thinking this is a banana skin about to happen.

The Italy games have been a mix of easy wins and really ugly games that we don't look like losing but look very uncomfortable in. There has been more of the latter than the former in the last few years and that is what I expect on Sunday.

So suggestions are that it will be:

10 Farrell
12 Slade
13 Lawrence

Italy could win but it would be a big upset especially at Twickenham.
If England get a red card in first 10 minutes then that could do it but really England should win.

I know there is a lot of in all this, but my problem with that midfield is that when they decide to bring Smith on they'll take one of the centers off and push Farrell over, and we'll be back to the same crap we saw last Saturday.

I would be impressed if they took Farrell off though.

lostinwales wrote:The Italy games have been a mix of easy wins and really ugly games that we don't look like losing but look very uncomfortable in. There has been more of the latter than the former in the last few years and that is what I expect on Sunday.

Still one of my favourite games ever when they did the old no ruck so no offside line!!

One of the worst. Ref made a right mess of that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:One of the worst. Ref made a right mess of that.

How so?

When you watch it back as hilarious as it was for a neutral, you can see several times where the ref was calling tackle alone, or not calling a maul when it was allowing players to then be offside. And that was with pre warning that Italy were going to do it. The instance where Haskell and Hartley were questioning it (as Haskell had come across the exact same tactic while abroad) was brushed away too (and made fun of from commentators) but again showed the ref wasn't quite on top of it. It was incredibly hard to call these moment so I don't really blame the refs ability but you can understand why the rules were changed almost immediately.

No 7&1/2 wrote:One of the worst. Ref made a right mess of that.

No that would be the thicko England players not adapting...

No 7&1/2 wrote:When you watch it back as hilarious as it was for a neutral, you can see several times where the ref was calling tackle alone, or not calling a maul when it was allowing players to then be offside. And that was with pre warning that Italy were going to do it. The instance where Haskell and Hartley were questioning it (as Haskell had come across the exact same tactic while abroad) was brushed away too (and made fun of from commentators) but again showed the ref wasn't quite on top of it. It was incredibly hard to call these moment so I don't really blame the refs ability but you can understand why the rules were changed almost immediately.

But as the referee rightly said, he isn't there to teach them the laws of the game.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hey Doc! I like the Smith/Farrell combo!

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. It feels like you just fed me a wafer thin mint....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Interesting news coming out from camp...Smith/Farrell was the preferred combination and Kelly was never in for a start, fit or not.

That bit is interesting, especially since Kelly seems to be more anointed than Marcus Smith.  I guess that the existing combination was preferred to the unknown (at international level, at least) is not the biggest surprise.  But I wonder how the attack gets going.   Farrell, to me, is too slow to be in the centres.  But the way the attack is shaping up, it does seem Borthwick likes to use his back row, in the last game Ludlum in particular, to punch holes and set the table for the next phase attack with quicker ball.  Now all we need is somewhat consistent quicker ball and the passes need to go to hand.

Oakdene wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:When you watch it back as hilarious as it was for a neutral, you can see several times where the ref was calling tackle alone, or not calling a maul when it was allowing players to then be offside. And that was with pre warning that Italy were going to do it. The instance where Haskell and Hartley were questioning it (as Haskell had come across the exact same tactic while abroad) was brushed away too (and made fun of from commentators) but again showed the ref wasn't quite on top of it. It was incredibly hard to call these moment so I don't really blame the refs ability but you can understand why the rules were changed almost immediately.

But as the referee rightly said, he isn't there to teach them the laws of the game.

Indeed. He was just wrong a fair few times in its application.

3pm team announcement. Seems forever away.

Oakdene wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:One of the worst. Ref made a right mess of that.

How so?

In a famous exchange (which I can't remember verbatim), Haskell wanted to clarify how the officiating at the breakdown. The referee replied "I am not your coach!" and the world laughed, as if Haskell had asked a ridiculous question.

However, referees are always explaining what they want to see ("Hands away", "Roll away", "Back behind the line" etc) so it was ridiculous to suddenly take the view that players know the laws, and don't need guidance. It was particularly ridiculous, because Italy had discussed beforehand with the officials how they would officiate a recent unheralded law clarification (not a law change). All the referee had to do was tell England what he had already told Italy before the match.

Haskell had seen Italy's tactic when he was playing in New Zealand, and knew how teams had eventually countered it (by grabbing hold of opposition players who had not committed to form a ruck). He did the same in that match only to find that the new clarification had nullified the counter. When he approached the referee, he was under the impression he just wasn't showing the right picture, so asked "What do you want to see?"

That's a very normal question, because referees are always telling teams what they want to see at the breakdown, so for the referee to say "I am not your coach" was an abdication of responsibility, meaning one team knew something the other didn't.

The irony after the match, was the number of pundits who mocked England, when it was evident they also didn't know how the law interpretation had been tweaked.

It was Roman Poite on the whistle that day, wasn't it? I'd not be surprised if Conor O'Shea had chosen that game specifically because he was the ref.

He was one of the best technical refs around, so I'd be inclined to think that his application was correct (based on what he could see on the pitch). But he wasn't the most empathetic to teams who were on the wrong side of his interpretation.

Agree with all that Rugby Fan

It became a bit of a meme afterward and a stick to beat English rugby with, but ultimately Poite got far too caught up in the fun of it. I also remember in a few examples highlighted after the game, a ruck had actually been formed (even allowing for the different interpretation), but Italy were still never pinged for coming round offside.

As widely trailed, Willis goes to 7 (Earl on the bench), Midfield is Farrell / Lawrence / Slade (Marchant dropped, Smith to bench), Arundell and Mitchell on the bench.

It will be interesting to see what substitutions happen when. Early subs would have something of the feel of a trial match...

England XV 15. Freddie Steward; 14. Max Malins 13. Henry Slade 12. Ollie Lawrence 11. Ollie Hassell-Collins; 10. Owen Farrell (Captain) 9. Jack van Poortvliet; 1. Ellis Genge 2. Jamie George 3. Kyle Sinckler 4. Maro Itoje 5. Ollie Chessum 6. Lewis Ludlam 7. Jack Willis 8. Alex Dombrandt.

Replacements 16. Jack Walker 17. Mako Vunipola 18. Dan Cole 19. Nick Isiekwe 20. Ben Earl 21. Alex Mitchell 22. Marcus Smith 23. Henry Arundell.

Poorfour wrote:
It will be interesting to see what substitutions happen when. Early subs would have something of the feel of a trial match...

If Italy play as well as they did last weekend then treating like a trial match might cause disaster.

Good to see some of the under performers from last weekend dropped. Farrell surely in last chance saloon and his Sarries chums Vunipola and Isiekwe likewise on thin ice.

Would have preferred Malins dropped, SMith starting and Ribbans on the bench but a lot more to like about that side than last week. That bench should have a lot of impact too.

Willis needs big game to justify being straight in, I reckon he will.
Lawrence good choice for 12, no Manu again even on bench so I guess his days really are numbered.

Bench looks very tasty with likes of Earl, Smith, Mitchell and Arundell.

The team is getting better but I am actually frustrated seeing Malins retained, because (one of my ) he will do well against Italy but rubbish against Ireland, France and probably Wales

Firstly extremely pleased that the Smith/Farrell combo is axed...for now. Of course both Lawrence and Slade are 13s so this is another, far from ideal, gamble. Why can't England produce international quality 12s.....it has been our achilles heel for ever! But hoping that this at least gives us a much better balanced back line. Slade is a quality defender and Farrell far more comfortable at 10. I am not sure how Lawrence will fair at 12 especially in defence? And of course later in the match will Farrell move to 12 rather than just be replaced by Smith?

Challenges for us....yet another new combo in the back row. Jack certainly deserves his chance, but this close to a RWC we need these units to have played consistently together. At least the back 3 will enjoy a 2nd game in a row! I think the bench, especially the forwards, looks meh. No wonder we struggle in the final stages these days. We really need Will Stuart and a few others back. And if Arundell goes well then he should be getting a starting spot as we need some proper gas (Malins to the bench).

Isiekwe- Promising when he was first selected 5 years ago and on paper he has a lot going for him, but he's looked underwhelming when he's had his most recent chances.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would have preferred Malins dropped, SMith starting  and Ribbans on the bench but a lot more to like about that side than last week. That bench should have a lot of impact too.

I didn't think Malins did a lot wrong last weekend. I'd have probably gone with Freeman personally but after a solid game Vs Scotland I don't see an issue with Malins staying in for now.

Smith or Farrell, neither played well enough last weekend with both looking good in patches. Farrell's incredibly dumb lapse in the build up to the first Scotland try still annoys but out of the 12 shirt is a start.

Yeah I'd have liked Ribbans on the bench as well.

And Ribbans off to Toulon at the end of the season....does that impact his selection for this RWC? I am thinking it does not, but very disappointing news anyway.

Nice to see Farrell starting and Smuth on the bench for this game.

I get that Owen Farrell is an awesome leader, but so was winston Churchill, and wouldn’t start Churchill if there was a better fly half available

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would have preferred Malins dropped, SMith starting  and Ribbans on the bench but a lot more to like about that side than last week. That bench should have a lot of impact too.

I didn't think Malins did a lot wrong last weekend. I'd have probably gone with Freeman personally but after a solid game Vs Scotland I don't see an issue with Malins staying in for now.

Smith or Farrell, neither played well enough last weekend with both looking good in patches. Farrell's incredibly dumb lapse in the build up to the first Scotland try still annoys but out of the 12 shirt is a start.

Yeah I'd have liked Ribbans on the bench as well.

Defence for me. Lazy on that first, Made a couple of rash decisions bar that, as did both midfielders and Curry though. 2 of them have counted the cost.

tazfalklands wrote:I get that Owen Farrell is an awesome leader, but so was winston Churchill, and wouldn’t start Churchill if there was a better fly half available

He's a bit skinny these days too for pro rugby.

Arundell starting ahead of Malins aside that's basically the side I wanted from the reduced squad so fairly happy with that.

I'd also have preferred Watson or Murley over OHC but the former two had already been released earlier in the week.

Interesting that Willis leapfrogs Earl as well as Burry.

Slade should massively improve the defensive alignment in midfield so I'm very happy to see him return. That was a gigantic issue last week.

Overall a side I like more. As with almost every England selection for so long I look at it and think that we weather the loss of key players abysmally though. I think that pack would be incomparable with Turry and Lawes in the back row or the addition of LCD's and Marler impact on the bench. Compared with how Ireland for instance can absorb the loss of players such as Furlong and Henshaw that's a long term frustration.

I am not so happy at seeing Henry Arundell being rushed back without any club game time – it is a lot of pressure on young shoulders that he is clearly seen as the saviour of English rugby and the lack of game fitness must increase his risk of injury.

Sharkey06 wrote:I am not so happy at seeing Henry Arundell being rushed back without any club game time – it is a lot of pressure on young shoulders that he is clearly seen as the saviour of English rugby and the lack of game fitness must increase his risk of injury.

Fair comment and although I'm pleased to see him fit and getting another chance the other thing is if he has an off day after his startling debut against Australia whether he'll be a one day wonderkid and dropped.
His lack of game time is a concern so hopefully people won't expect him to single handedly win match for England.

Sharkey06 wrote:I am not so happy at seeing Henry Arundell being rushed back without any club game time – it is a lot of pressure on young shoulders that he is clearly seen as the saviour of English rugby and the lack of game fitness must increase his risk of injury.

He'd probably be starting in the Prem Cup tonight if he wasn't on the bench on Sunday.

You could make an argument he may be too rusty, but not sure he's at more risk on the injury front playing 20 minutes for England.

If there is one past England player that Arundell reminds me of then it is Ian Balshaw, and it is worth remembering what he did vs Italy