England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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No 7&1/2 wrote:That's a point too, Tuilagi in training while suspended, thought players were banned in totality?

Banned from playing. I imagine he's being used to simulate the effect of Aki when we are practicing our defence. There's no value in releasing him back to Sale.

Geordie wrote:What are they doing with Ribbans aswell...?

Third choice lock but lack of versatility keeps him off the bench I assume.

Makes sense to get Smith some game time with Quins.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's a point too, Tuilagi in training while suspended, thought players were banned in totality?

Banned from playing. I imagine he's being used to simulate the effect of Aki when we are practicing our defence. There's no value in releasing him back to Sale.

Fair enough, thought it covered more. And...there's avlue for the player and Sale surely!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's a point too, Tuilagi in training while suspended, thought players were banned in totality?

Banned from playing. I imagine he's being used to simulate the effect of Aki when we are practicing our defence. There's no value in releasing him back to Sale.

Fair enough, thought it covered more. And...there's avlue for the player and Sale surely!

There's no value in England releasing him back to Sale was what I meant.

Pretty sure players can train if banned. Rules mirror club ones I believe, imagine the nightmare of trying to check if a club players were training with other players whilst banned!

It seems they've got a good idea of the core squad but are going through options outside that.

Second row - Isiekwe and Ribbans both looked at since Hill was dropped
Flanker - Earl and Burry coming in and out
Fly-half - Smith X 2 and now Ford
Centre - Tuilagi training but Marchant out
Wing - May in but Murley out, presuming Malins and OHC are injured

Makes sense so early in a new setup.

Re Ribbans going to France, there are rumours that the overseas based ruling might change.

Launchbury has been picked in the world 15 vs Baa Baas and is apparently aiming for the WC.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Launchbury has been picked in the world 15 vs Baa Baas and is apparently aiming for the WC.

I was a massive Launchbury fan but he really slowed down after all the injuries, sadly. The defensive maul work is still excellent but the breakdown and carrying is way less prominent, he remains an nearly non-existant lineout option as international locks go. I'd love it if he could regain his best form as that player would walk into the 23. On his more recent performances over the last two seasons I'd probably pick Isiekwe and Ribbans ahead of him anyway being brutally honest though.

I have not kept up with his form in either watching or reading anythng since Wasps went kaput so not a clue. Just a report I read.

Smith left put of England 26 man traing squad and Ford back in why? surely it is a step backwards?

majesticimperialman wrote:Smith left put of England 26 man traing squad and Ford back  in why? surely it is a step backwards?

A 29 year old with 80 odd caps who set a record unbeaten run sequence with the team he won the league with last season is a backwards step?

You know Owen Farrell is the incumbent of the 10 shirt at the moment right?

majesticimperialman wrote:Smith left put of England 26 man traing squad and Ford back  in why? surely it is a step backwards?

As noted above and in Borthwick's comments, it looks like they want to give Smith some game time, as he hasn't played that much in the last 3 weeks, and he will come back into the squad after the weekend.

I really think that the best thing that could happen to England for a bit is for Farrell to pick up a knock that's enough to keep him out for a couple of games. I don't wish injury on anyone, but he's not been playing well, and he's kicking terribly. He's very much like Youngs at the moment - bang out of the sort of form that made him Captain in the first place.

Ford and Smith are perfectly capable of playing 10 in his place, and we might actually get some good attacking play together. Imagine if Ford got the backs running similar to 2015's game vs France... I can dream I guess. Farrell will be a bit dreary, possession will be kicked away and he'll miss penalties, costing us 10 or so points. If I say that now, he might actually play a blinder. Please!

Farrell's goal kicking was pretty poor on Saurday. IIRC, he landed the first penalty from in front but quite long range quite nicely with a good strike, but then the only other one I though he hit reasonably was the one that hit the post. Otherwise it was a bit of military golf - left, right, left...

Don't know if it was confidence issue, technique or perhaps him carrying a little niggle, but it certainly wasn't good enough for an international kicker, especially on a team that isn't going to blow you away with running rubgy at the moment, so must take every available opportunity.

To be honest, I'd have fancied myself to make more of the kicks that OF did, and I haven't taken a kick at goal for over 20 years (was a decent but not outstanding kicker - generally the back up for my teams).

dummy_half wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Smith left put of England 26 man traing squad and Ford back  in why? surely it is a step backwards?

As noted above and in Borthwick's comments, it looks like they want to give Smith some game time, as he hasn't played that much in the last 3 weeks, and he will come back into the squad after the weekend.

Wish they'd release Arundell as well so he could add to his 14 seconds from the last weekend ....

Heaf wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Smith left put of England 26 man traing squad and Ford back  in why? surely it is a step backwards?

As noted above and in Borthwick's comments, it looks like they want to give Smith some game time, as he hasn't played that much in the last 3 weeks, and he will come back into the squad after the weekend.

Wish they'd release Arundell as well so he could add to his 14 seconds from the last weekend ....

They are trying to keep him fresh for his next cameo.

Arundell may well be in line to start if Malins is injured. Especially with how England seemed to be using Steward, Malins and Farrell in the back field to marshall the kick tennis. That requires three strong kickers. Arundell isn't as good a kicker as Malins but better than May and Freeman.

I think Steward, Watson and Arundell could be a fantastic back three.

Will Borthwick got back to Farrell at 12 and Ford at 10 for the game against France?
In fairness, it was not a bad partnership in the past.

With Ford back in the squad i honestly think it will be a mistake if they go back to Ford at 10 and Farrell aat 12 when ir Lawrence at 12 and Slade at 13 as been working si qwell.

It's a training squad so I wouldn't get overly excited....but Ford is/was coming in for Smith at some point.

Ford looked off the pace last week so I can't imagine he'll be starting next week, but Ford/Farrell wouldn't be the end of the world, it worked extremely well for the 18 wins or whatever it was.

Personally, I think it will be either Ford or Farrell at 10 and we may see them combined if more control is required in a game. Ford is one of the best tactical kickers in rugby so you can see his appeal to SB.

eirebilly_01 wrote:Will Borthwick got back to Farrell at 12 and Ford at 10 for the game against France?
In fairness, it was not a bad partnership in the past.

Who knows. Ford wasn't kicking off the tee at the weekend, presumably because it was his first start coming back from an achilles injury and he didn't want to put extra stress on the ankle. Going to be hard to pick him on his own if he's needing to save his ankle like that.

That being said Farrell is well off the boil playing in a side that should really suit him, he was poor Vs Scotland at 12 though having Ford's authority at 10 as opposed to Smith (who seemingly neither Farrell nor Borthwick trust) might help him keep his shape. We are playing France and Ireland though and you'd expect them to apply a lot of pressure in the 10/12 channel if we line up with Ford and Farrell.

I am not so sure taking the careful, safe, territory approach to the game against France would be a good idea. If England approach the game that way then they will be exposed for me.

If Ford is fit, he should start at 10 with Farrell dropping to the bench. Just that selection alone could throw the French off their game plan as i am certain they will set up to play against Farrell at 10.

9 would be my major concern if I were an England fan though...

If Borthwick goes back to Ford-Farrell as a starting pair then that's a really bad call. Lawrence is one of our best players at the moment and he and Slade are starting to gel well.

With my prediction head on, we'll probably see it from about 65 minutes as Lawrence will probably be knackered after that long running full pelt into the oversized French back rowers.

Unless Farrell picks up an injury, in which case the midfield will stay the same for the full 80.

eirebilly_01 wrote:I am not so sure taking the careful, safe, territory approach to the game against France would be a good idea. If England approach the game that way then they will be exposed for me.

If Ford is fit, he should start at 10 with Farrell dropping to the bench. Just that selection alone could throw the French off their game plan as i am certain they will set up to play against Farrell at 10.

9 would be my major concern if I were an England fan though...

9 isn't a problem. JVP is solid, and Mitchell is great in his cameos. The main issue in the last game was the management not pulling JVP off in the 2nd half when he was obviously shot.

lostinwales wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:I am not so sure taking the careful, safe, territory approach to the game against France would be a good idea. If England approach the game that way then they will be exposed for me.

If Ford is fit, he should start at 10 with Farrell dropping to the bench. Just that selection alone could throw the French off their game plan as i am certain they will set up to play against Farrell at 10.

9 would be my major concern if I were an England fan though...

9 isn't a problem. JVP is solid, and Mitchell is great in his cameos. The main issue in the last game was the management not pulling JVP off in the 2nd half when he was obviously shot.

I agree with this. JVP was actually very good in the first half but he played on to the 73rd minute, that's ten minutes to long. He did a lot of off the ball work in defence he was cream crackered.

Let JVP go same again but get Mitchell on after 55/60 mins. That will actually put us in a pretty place at 9.

10 is a real concern still, even if Ford our best all round flyhalf gets picked is his injury going to allow him to kick off the tee? Has he got enough minutes under his belt to go toe to toe with Sexton and Ntamack since return from injury?

An argument can be made to say the best fly half is Ford, though to me Smith is clearly ahead. I'm not sure many would be able to argue with a straight face that the fly half in the most form is Farrell. It's a big decision for Borthwick, he's already tackled the issue of having an underperforming Youngs in the team/squad, this is the next one. Does he move Farrell and Lawrence out one? If so do you give farrell the kicking duties (he's consistently been preferred to Smith and Ford) even though he's been pretty average to say the least these last couple of years and last weekend was the 2nd time he's gone completely to pot (France 20 being the other)?

I saw a post on a HYS on the BBC Rugby pages (so no idea how true it is) which suggested that Farrell was made captain as part of a continuation from the old Eddie-run teams. The captaincy would then pass to Genge in time for the summer tests and the run up to the World Cup.

I would like to think that there is some likelihood of this happening.

No 7&1/2 wrote:An argument can be made to say the best fly half is Ford, though to me Smith is clearly ahead. I'm not sure many would be able to argue with a straight face that the fly half in the most form is Farrell. It's a big decision for Borthwick, he's already tackled the issue of having an underperforming Youngs in the team/squad, this is the next one. Does he move Farrell and Lawrence out one? If so do you give farrell the kicking duties (he's consistently been preferred to Smith and Ford) even though he's been pretty average to say the least these last couple of years and last weekend was the 2nd time he's gone completely to pot (France 20 being the other)?

I'm not sure there's much argument that Ford has the best all round skillset. Whether he's the best flyhalf for the job would be a different discussion.

Farrell was in extremely good form (stupid ban aside) in the build up to the 6N. Since he's come into the 6N not so much.

I'm rather hoping we're keeping the midfield remains the same as it does seem to be working which hasn't been the case for some time really.

Either or. For me, Smith.
And midfield if Slade could just do something useful in attack it would be great. How long is kelly out for? Time for him and Lawrence to gel yet.

Mr Bounce wrote:I saw a post on a HYS on the BBC Rugby pages (so no idea how true it is) which suggested that Farrell was made captain as part of a continuation from the old Eddie-run teams. The captaincy would then pass to Genge in time for the summer tests and the run up to the World Cup.

I would like to think that there is some likelihood of this happening.

I'd be VERY careful of what you take note of on the BBC HYSs! There are a couple of us who actually discuss rugby there, there are an awful lot of desperate trolling morons whose sole aim is to disrupt and stir up Poopie. Hopefully fairly easy to sort the wheat from the chaff but there is a LOT of chaff.

As for Farrell captaincy, you'd like to think Borthwick is his own man so made his own decision, despite it turning out to be a bit of a chain around his neck.

mountain man wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I saw a post on a HYS on the BBC Rugby pages (so no idea how true it is) which suggested that Farrell was made captain as part of a continuation from the old Eddie-run teams. The captaincy would then pass to Genge in time for the summer tests and the run up to the World Cup.

I would like to think that there is some likelihood of this happening.

I'd be VERY careful of what you take note of on the BBC HYSs! There are a couple of us who actually discuss rugby there, there are an awful lot of desperate trolling morons whose sole aim is to disrupt and stir up Poopie. Hopefully fairly easy to sort the wheat from the chaff but there is a LOT of chaff.

As for Farrell captaincy, you'd like to think Borthwick is his own man so made his own decision, despite it turning out to be a bit of a chain around his neck.

Yep. HYS on BBC seem to have a very small minority of folk discussing rugby, a lot of trolls who seem typically one eyed about their nation and then a whole lot of finger in air, where's the wind blowing, time to throw s**t that direction types. So much of the comments there seem to just come down to laziest and often poorly informed negative viewpoint available at arm's reach.

It's a shame given that my path to here, as for many, was through the largely good Been forums Scrum V and onto 606, then 606v2.

I don't personally think Farrell has been as poor as some are saying. His tactical kicking and marshalling of the battle for field position has largely been fairly good I think. Meanwhile the defensive alignment in midfield in the last two games has improved massively. Plus we have seen glimpses of the attack coming together after just 3 games. Early phase play in particular where I think he's meshing well with Lawrence to take advantage of an improving set-piece. I think some of his flat balls into midfield and picking of options against Wales was very good indeed.

The game plan currently is clearly that if there isn't a clear try scoring chance after a few phases that they kick. Vitally they seem to be doing so increasingly on the front foot which I don't view as that negative if the chase and subsequent defensive sets are where they were against Wales as oppose to the Scotland defensive debacle which their multiple very good attacking threats skillfully took advantage of.

His goal kicking has been less consistent for a while now and is certainly a concern.

Ah yes I remember the Scrum V forum. That must be a few years ago?

I like the BBC HYSs except it does get plagued by the clowns. If only they had decent moderation but sadly no. Often slightly tangential comments get removed but obvious blatant trolling doesn't. The regular trolls game the system by trolling but keeping just within rules so if reported the posts don't get deleted.

Toulouse have a back row crisis, so Jack Willis has left the England camp, and will play for them this Sunday.

Borthwick has said he would like the freedom to select players working overseas, so this represents a test case, as the same situation will often crop up on by-weeks during the Six Nations.

In Willis and LCD we have two players in a probable first choice 23 who will likely be playing in France next season. Plus Mercer who could realistically be in the current 23 if available.

Then Simmonds, Ribbans and Marchant from next season who are likely training squad members if available.

It's clearly a growing issue. Even if the ruling is changed players based in France will still be available for fewer training camps and miss bye weeks such as this in the Six Nations which will affect their selection chances I'd presume. I'd probably support a 2 year suspension of the ruling then reassess where things stand with the Prems finances and the squad for the 2025/6 season.

I'm far from being Farrell's biggest fan but he's been playing some fantastic stuff for Sarries prior to the 6N. He is arguably, the form pick at 10 as Smith hasn't been quite as great this season from the games I've seen and Ford hasn't played at all.

As much as I really like Smith, the constant clamoring for him is kind of un-warranted when you look at what he produced in an England shirt. At what point do we stop making excuses for him (He needs Farrell out of the team....he needs quicker delivery....he needs a hard running 12) and just judge him on what he's actually producing? Which let's be be honest, hasn't been particularly great.

I wanted Smith to succeed as much as the next man (even maybe as much as Poorfor!).....but he's got 20 caps under his belt now and we're still making excuses.

The WC is 3 games away.....

From a purely kicking pov you can't have a primary kicker at 40 odd percent. Farrels been below his best for a little while and it's the second time he's gone to absolute pot from the tee. We're in the bit of a weird situation for England where its the solid ten who is struggling to get points but the need at this level to be able to take 3 when you want to is important.  Maybe Farrell just needs Smith in the team to kick.

Unsurprisingly Haouas is banned. Would be nice if we can get well on top in the scrum.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm far from being Farrell's biggest fan but he's been playing some fantastic stuff for Sarries prior to the 6N. He is arguably, the form pick at 10 as Smith hasn't been quite as great this season from the games I've seen and Ford hasn't played at all.

As much as I really like Smith, the constant clamoring for him is kind of un-warranted when you look at what he produced in an England shirt. At what point do we stop making excuses for him (He needs Farrell out of the team....he needs quicker delivery....he needs a hard running 12) and just judge him on what he's actually producing? Which let's be be honest, hasn't been particularly great.

I wanted Smith to succeed as much as the next man (even maybe as much as Poorfor!).....but he's got 20 caps under his belt now and we're still making excuses.

The WC is 3 games away.....

Have to say I pretty much agree with this. I was one last year calling for Smith to be England 10 and he has rarely produced so far. Couple glimpses in summer but otherwise not been great. I do think with Farrell at 12 it's definitely not working, so assuming Farrell starts against France and its Smith on bench it would be good to see how Smith gets on with Lawrence 12 for a decent amount of time not just 15 seconds. If we get that and similar scenario against Ireland and Smith still does not produce the goods I wonder what Borthwicks plan will be. Ford in quite possibly for pre WC games in summer?
It is tricky as at one point last year (year before?), Smith looked as if with his progression he would be England 10 for next 10 years. Doesn't look that way now.

Smith made a good impression in his early caps playing (iirc) Canada and/or USA with Mitchell as the scrum half. Can't remember who was at 12 (this was immediately before / during the Lions tour, so definitely not Farrell - might have been Atkinson).

I still see the moments of quality that of the other 6Ns 10s you'd only match from Russell, but their aren't enough of them or at least they don't lead to sufficient impact on the game given with the players he's had around him, and there are obvious weaknesses in Smith's game defensively at the top level - not that he's unwilling to defend or in the wrong position, but he's certainly a less effective tackler than Farrell.

Obviously, Smith-Farrell-Slade as a midfield is lacking in ball carrying prowess, especially if Youngs is giving slow and inaccurate ball - do think JvP has been instrumental in speeding up the breakdown work, which has been an obvious improvement this tournament. Smith does need a reasonable opportunity with a streong running 12, which has been somewhat lacking to date

Kelly at 12 vs Canada, Lawrence for USA I think. Then he's had the luxury of Slade, worse at 12 in attack than he is at 13 for the 6 nations, and Farrell.

Does anyone remember how boring it was in 2020 too? And that was with Ford...the tactics in attack frankly since 2019 have hamstrung us. It's been an improvement in the last 3 games albeit in fits and starts. Does Evans really leave after the 6Ns to be replaced by Wigglesworth? Surely the latter is there doing something else; any definitive word on that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Either or. For me, Smith.
And midfield if Slade could just do something useful in attack it would be great. How long is kelly out for? Time for him and Lawrence to gel yet.

Kelly out until after the 6N unfortunately. Kelly/Lawrence would be a good partnership but not sure we'll see it now until after the world cup.

To be fair to Slade he did have some nice moments in attack including making a scything break where he was dragged down 5m out and from which we scored in the next phase.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Either or. For me, Smith.
And midfield if Slade could just do something useful in attack it would be great. How long is kelly out for? Time for him and Lawrence to gel yet.

Kelly out until after the 6N unfortunately. Kelly/Lawrence would be a good partnership but not sure we'll see it now until after the world cup.

To be fair to Slade he did have some nice moments in attack including making a scything break where he was dragged down 5m out and from which we scored in the next phase.

But how often do we get moments like that? Compare with the rest of the 6Ns 13s (other than Wales, who are currently just in a big selection muddle) - you'd definitely take Ringrose , Fickou and Jones and possibly the Italian. All just offer a more consistent threat ball in hand.

I may not have this entirely accurate as I had to cobble it together flipping between pages on the RFU website, but since the 2020 6N (not counting sub appearances.):
Ford is 2W-0D-2L, all against Tier 1 opposition and with Farrell at 12
Farrell (at 10) is 2W-0D-1L, all T1 with Lawrence at 12
Smith is:
3W-1D-4L with Farrell at 12 (all T1)
0W-0D-3L with Slade at 12 (all T1)
3W-0D-0: against T1 and 2W-0D-0L with anyone else at 12.

Or looked at another way:
Farrell at 12: 5W-1D-6L
Slade at 12 0W-0D-3L
Any other 12: 7W-0D-0L

Reasonable conclusions to draw:
1) Slade should not play 12
2) Farrell is not as bad as Slade, but also probably shouldn’t play 12
3) Having a proper 12 produces significantly better results than not having one

Poorfour wrote:I may not have this entirely accurate as I had to cobble it together flipping between pages on the RFU website, but since the 2020 6N (not counting sub appearances.):
Ford is 2W-0D-2L, all against Tier 1 opposition and with Farrell at 12
Farrell (at 10) is 2W-0D-1L, all T1 with Lawrence at 12
Smith is:
3W-1D-4L with Farrell at 12 (all T1)
0W-0D-3L with Slade at 12 (all T1)
3W-0D-0: against T1 and 2W-0D-0L with anyone else at 12.

Or looked at another way:
Farrell at 12: 5W-1D-6L
Slade at 12 0W-0D-3L
Any other 12: 7W-0D-0L

Reasonable conclusions to draw:
1) Slade should not play 12
2) Farrell is not as bad as Slade, but also probably shouldn’t play 12
3) Having a proper 12 produces significantly better results than not having one

The oddity in all of this is that on paper, Slade appears to have the attributes of a very good 12 in the manner of Will Greenwood or Mike Catt. He rarely if ever plays there for his club though, so perhaps there's something missing that isn't so obvious...

Farrell at 12 has always felt a bit like fitting a square peg in a round hole - he's a good if unflashy 10 but as a second playmaker doesn't challenge the defence sufficiently. As a 12 he needs a hard running centre or ball carrying 8 coming off him to compensate for his own limitations there. Slade and Tom Curry or an out of form Billy V just doesn't get the job done. Of course, his current form as a 10 is another discussion...

dummy_half wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Either or. For me, Smith.
And midfield if Slade could just do something useful in attack it would be great. How long is kelly out for? Time for him and Lawrence to gel yet.

Kelly out until after the 6N unfortunately. Kelly/Lawrence would be a good partnership but not sure we'll see it now until after the world cup.

To be fair to Slade he did have some nice moments in attack including making a scything break where he was dragged down 5m out and from which we scored in the next phase.

But how often do we get moments like that? Compare with the rest of the 6Ns 13s (other than Wales, who are currently just in a big selection muddle) - you'd definitely take Ringrose , Fickou and Jones and possibly the Italian. All just offer a more consistent threat ball in hand.

As highly as I rate Shug I'd probably still take Slade as a partner for Lawrence. Slade is a terrific defender. After how abject the defence was against Scotland I don't think that should be brushed over, especially in the short term, regardless of it being more boring than scything breaks.

Ringrose is for me the second best 13 in rugby after Am and even then he's hot on his heels. A terrific player. So somewhat tough judging there. Worth noting that Ringrose has got to that level with experience too. Whilst he was always good he wasn't at this level when breaking through. Vitally he was still good enough to become first choice on merit though. Then just improved and improved.

Fickou is an odd one. The way his career has transformed under the current France setup is remarkable. No matter where he plays he seems to have a fantastic game and has done for a few years now across 13, 12 and wing. It's an interesting shift in form from a player who clearly seems to have fitted with exactly what his coaches needed. In that form I would certainly take Fickou in the England side though, yes!

Slade is in theory a very classy player but he rarely stands out despite his 50 odd caps. Still an important player for us.

lostinwales wrote:Slade is in theory a very classy player but he rarely stands out despite his 50 odd caps. Still an important player for us.

Depends what you're looking for by standout to be fair. I'd say how quickly the defence improved in R2 and R3 compared to is standout and Slade deserves credit for that. Especially given that Lawrence isn't experienced either as a 12 or at international level.

I wouldn't argue that Slade is perfect, have in fact argued the opposite many times. I seem to remember going on multiple rants around Lions selection when folk mentioned his versatility as a reason to pick him for instance as apparently he covers 13, 12, 10 and 15 but actually only plays one well!

Similarly I think his kicking can be a touch overstated. Definitely a good kicker but can be inconsistent with his accuracy. The left boot angle is very useful to have but if he were right footed I do wonder if he'd kick as much as he does. He's a solid second tactical kicker or good third option to have in the back line. As opposed to players such as Ramos or Hogg who are secondary kickers that are good enough tactical kickers at their best to be a primary option.

I hope that over Borthwick's reign we see some of the younger talents offer his defensive attributes and much more in attack. As things stand I think he's been a vital part of what England have seen improve in the last two games.

king_carlos wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Slade is in theory a very classy player but he rarely stands out despite his 50 odd caps. Still an important player for us.

Depends what you're looking for by standout to be fair. I'd say how quickly the defence improved in R2 and R3 compared to is standout and Slade deserves credit for that. Especially given that Lawrence isn't experienced either as a 12 or at international level.

I wouldn't argue that Slade is perfect, have in fact argued the opposite many times. I seem to remember going on multiple rants around Lions selection when folk mentioned his versatility as a reason to pick him for instance as apparently he covers 13, 12, 10 and 15 but actually only plays one well!

Similarly I think his kicking can be a touch overstated. Definitely a good kicker but can be inconsistent with his accuracy. The left boot angle is very useful to have but if he were right footed I do wonder if he'd kick as much as he does. He's a solid second tactical kicker or good third option to have in the back line. As opposed to players such as Ramos or Hogg who are secondary kickers that are good enough tactical kickers at their best to be a primary option.

I hope that over Borthwick's reign we see some of the younger talents offer his defensive attributes and much more in attack. As things stand I think he's been a vital part of what England have seen improve in the last two games.

I'd agree with that and also add that we don't have a readymade replacement waiting to step in.

BOD spoke about the importance of an outside centre who can see what the other team might be doing in attack, and play the percentages in defence. He starts talking about Gary Ringrose about three minutes into this clip. Not sure how much Slade is doing that, or whether Lawrence can handle that responsibility at Test level. Seem to recall Jonathan Joseph was lauded for his defence, during that long unbeaten run, when he played outside Farrell.



The next clip overlaps with the one above, but shows more of the conversation when BOD talked about his own experience of reading defences, and the dangers of analysis.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Slade is in theory a very classy player but he rarely stands out despite his 50 odd caps. Still an important player for us.

Depends what you're looking for by standout to be fair. I'd say how quickly the defence improved in R2 and R3 compared to is standout and Slade deserves credit for that. Especially given that Lawrence isn't experienced either as a 12 or at international level.

I wouldn't argue that Slade is perfect, have in fact argued the opposite many times. I seem to remember going on multiple rants around Lions selection when folk mentioned his versatility as a reason to pick him for instance as apparently he covers 13, 12, 10 and 15 but actually only plays one well!

Similarly I think his kicking can be a touch overstated. Definitely a good kicker but can be inconsistent with his accuracy. The left boot angle is very useful to have but if he were right footed I do wonder if he'd kick as much as he does. He's a solid second tactical kicker or good third option to have in the back line. As opposed to players such as Ramos or Hogg who are secondary kickers that are good enough tactical kickers at their best to be a primary option.

I hope that over Borthwick's reign we see some of the younger talents offer his defensive attributes and much more in attack. As things stand I think he's been a vital part of what England have seen improve in the last two games.

I'd agree with that and also add that we don't have a readymade replacement waiting to step in.

Agree the team seems to be playing somewhat better than against Scotland, but Scotland is a better team than Italy and Wales.  So, I agree with you in a hopeful, but not completely convinced, kind of way.  

Slade is rather frustrating for me. Nice player, but I always kind of expected him to be better or have a higher ceiling than he does.