England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:16 am

First topic message reminder :

Continued.......

by **Rugby Fan** Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:51 am

doctor_grey wrote:Slade is rather frustrating for me. Nice player, but I always kind of expected him to be better or have a higher ceiling than he does.

Commentators often mention his booming touchfinder, which helped Exeter beat Saracens at the death. That was six years ago now, and he's never done anything similar for England. Slade is an odd player, who commands the respect of his peers, to the extent a few old pros like BOd and Tom Shanklin though Gatland might have missed a trick not taking him on the 2021 Lions tour. He's never really imposed himself on a Test in the way he can do so for his club.

by Geordie Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:13 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Slade is in theory a very classy player but he rarely stands out despite his 50 odd caps. Still an important player for us.
Depends what you're looking for by standout to be fair. I'd say how quickly the defence improved in R2 and R3 compared to is standout and Slade deserves credit for that. Especially given that Lawrence isn't experienced either as a 12 or at international level.

I wouldn't argue that Slade is perfect, have in fact argued the opposite many times. I seem to remember going on multiple rants around Lions selection when folk mentioned his versatility as a reason to pick him for instance as apparently he covers 13, 12, 10 and 15 but actually only plays one well!

Similarly I think his kicking can be a touch overstated. Definitely a good kicker but can be inconsistent with his accuracy. The left boot angle is very useful to have but if he were right footed I do wonder if he'd kick as much as he does. He's a solid second tactical kicker or good third option to have in the back line. As opposed to players such as Ramos or Hogg who are secondary kickers that are good enough tactical kickers at their best to be a primary option.

I hope that over Borthwick's reign we see some of the younger talents offer his defensive attributes and much more in attack. As things stand I think he's been a vital part of what England have seen improve in the last two games.

I'd agree with that and also add that we don't have a readymade replacement waiting to step in.

Or We move Lawrence to his actual 13 spot and bring in one of Kelly, Atkinson, Hartley etc at 12 going forward.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:01 pm

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Slade is in theory a very classy player but he rarely stands out despite his 50 odd caps. Still an important player for us.
Depends what you're looking for by standout to be fair. I'd say how quickly the defence improved in R2 and R3 compared to is standout and Slade deserves credit for that. Especially given that Lawrence isn't experienced either as a 12 or at international level.

I wouldn't argue that Slade is perfect, have in fact argued the opposite many times. I seem to remember going on multiple rants around Lions selection when folk mentioned his versatility as a reason to pick him for instance as apparently he covers 13, 12, 10 and 15 but actually only plays one well!

Similarly I think his kicking can be a touch overstated. Definitely a good kicker but can be inconsistent with his accuracy. The left boot angle is very useful to have but if he were right footed I do wonder if he'd kick as much as he does. He's a solid second tactical kicker or good third option to have in the back line. As opposed to players such as Ramos or Hogg who are secondary kickers that are good enough tactical kickers at their best to be a primary option.

I hope that over Borthwick's reign we see some of the younger talents offer his defensive attributes and much more in attack. As things stand I think he's been a vital part of what England have seen improve in the last two games.

I'd agree with that and also add that we don't have a readymade replacement waiting to step in.

Or We move Lawrence to his actual 13 spot and bring in one of Kelly, Atkinson, Hartley etc at 12 going forward.

That's probably a medium term plan as opposed to a short term one. Seb Atkinson looks a real talent but needs way more game time before he gets dropped into international rugby. Hartley needs to play some Prem rugby first. Dan Kelly could have had a shot this 6N but injury has scuppered that to the summer after he picked up that injury in camp.

Our options are limited to bringing Marchant in for Slade but Marchant was poor Vs Scotland and offered less than Slade has. Manu is banned so a no go. Bring the aging Joseph back in?

by Geordie Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:21 pm

I wasnt suggesting before the world cup. Bar Kelly they all clearly need to develop in the prem. But theres hope now we have options coming through. Hartley played very well against us...and at 6'4 could become a big unit.

Whats happening with Will Joseph?

by formerly known as Sam Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:37 pm

Geordie wrote:I wasnt suggesting before the world cup. Bar Kelly they all clearly need to develop in the prem. But theres hope now we have options coming through. Hartley played very well against us...and at 6'4 could become a big unit.

Whats happening with Will Joseph?

Will Joseph is back from injury but riding the bench for LI. He's got a lot of promise, hopefully another option at 13 going forward. He'd certainly bring more pace to the backline.

Olly Hartley is a big unit at centre but a skillful one as well. I doubt he had only the one offer after Wasps went under. He played fullback in the PRC for Wasps and showed a nice range of kicking and reads the game well. I can see him being a fixture in that Sarries backline before long.

by Poorfour Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:44 pm

Anyanwu could be a contender if he continues to develop next season. He's only had a little 1st XV game time this season, but with Andre Esterhuizen moving on next season he is likely to shoulder a lot of the burden at 12 for Quins.

by king_carlos Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:48 pm

I often wonder if JJ was discarded too soon. His form did dip after the injuries but he then seemed to recapture it with Bath. He was brilliant in that early EJ period.

The way he used his pace in Gustard's very aggressive blitz to pressure opponents whilst blitzing but still cover the outside arc on the subsequent drift was something few have the acceleration to do. An interesting example of how pace can be vital in defence just as it is in attack.

Will Joseph is steadily picking up experience with LI. He hadn't started a Prem game until this season I think some didn't realise given he was capped so young. Just a handful of bench apps and Prem Cup until recently. That considering 14 Prem and Challenge Cup apps with 8 starts this season, albeit some on the wing, is good exposure. Since Rona left they seem to be sharing centre duties between van Rensburg (consistently strong performer), Luca Morisi and Rory Jennings.

by mountain man Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:24 pm

Give it a year or so and likes of Woodward and Ma'asi-White from U20s could be answer for England senior side. Ma'asi-White is a handful now and skills as well.

by Margin_Walker Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:31 pm

Joseph's back starting this weekend after a few weeks riding the bench easing back into it following injury. Was looking very good before picking up the issue at the back end of last year. LI certainly tend look better with him as a strike runner at 13 and BJvR back at 12.

by Geordie Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:31 pm

Yes Anyanwu looks quite an option aswell. Its like buses...none then loads come at once.

Hopefully the young locks follow suit.

Just need a few front rowers specifically tightheads to start coming through.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:58 pm

mountain man wrote:Give it a year or so and likes of Woodward and Ma'asi-White from U20s could be answer for England senior side. Ma'asi-White is a handful now and skills as well.

Joe Woodward looks like a very classy option but he's still got another year at under 20s level. Going to be a few years before he becomes an option. Ma'asi White though has really kicked on in his second season with the under 20s. A night and day difference. With Manu leaving Sale in the summer he could see more game time with Bedlow the signed replacement and that's much less of a challenge.

Anyanwu seems to have the physical capabilities but looks below Prem level at the minute. More game time will be good for his development but he's another that's a year or two away. Ojomoh at Bath is probably closer to selection.

by king_carlos Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:25 pm

Geordie wrote:Just need a few front rowers specifically tightheads to start coming through.

With the huge improvement Will Stuart showed in his later England apps TH doesn't concern me to much. I think Sinckler and Stuart as a 1st and 2nd choice is a good place to be. Then has showed he's still a solid option in the next year at least.

I think Heyes will get there too. His form's not been as good this season as last but last year was outstanding considering he was 22 and playing TH. Being tall he has a tendency to scrummage with his feet too far behind him at times which the best LHs can target. That's a small technical issue that experience should fix though.

Props change so much over their career that it's a tough position to judge younger players at times. Marler a perfect example. He was a bullocking carrier but no the best scrummager early on. Now the opposite. Early in his international career Uini Atonio looked like an impact sub who wouldn't be a starter. In the last two years that's flipped on it's head with him being an integral starter who nails the set-piece consistently before someone such as Bamba comes on later in the game and targets the breakdown more. It's a position where players naturally evolve a lot and later in their career.

by Poorfour Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:44 pm

The usual path for props is that at some point in their career they learn that they need to change their training and reshape their bodies if they want to be international class scrummagers. Their carrying drops away a bit, but their reliability in the set piece reaches a level where they can be relied upon to start regularly.

by doctor_grey Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:00 pm

Poorfour wrote:The usual path for props is that at some point in their career they learn that they need to change their training and reshape their bodies if they want to be international class scrummagers. Their carrying drops away a bit, but their reliability in the set piece reaches a level where they can be relied upon to start regularly.

They can still train at McDonald's, eh mate?

by king_carlos Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:24 pm

Will Stuart off with a HIA for Bath and looking very dazed. A shame as he was strong is his later England appearances.

Barbeary went off soon after coming off too. Injuries really hampering his development at the moment. Few players can make yards against set defences like Barbeary. Hopefully he can get fit and fulfil that potential.

by Poorfour Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:46 pm

king_carlos wrote:Will Stuart off with a HIA for Bath and looking very dazed. A shame as he was strong is his later England appearances.

Barbeary went off soon after coming off too. Injuries really hampering his development at the moment. Few players can make yards against set defences like Barbeary. Hopefully he can get fit and fulfil that potential.

Stuart also looked like he had a knee injury of some sort from the way they strapped him up. Not good for England, though Joe Marler had a lot of fun against his replacement.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:18 pm

king_carlos wrote:Will Stuart off with a HIA for Bath and looking very dazed. A shame as he was strong is his later England appearances.

Barbeary went off soon after coming off too. Injuries really hampering his development at the moment. Few players can make yards against set defences like Barbeary. Hopefully he can get fit and fulfil that potential.

Will Stuart was a bit unlucky. He ran a blocking line and stopped right under where the ball was about to land but didn't jump. Potter and de Glanville both did however. Stuart got Potter's hip in the back of his head and de Glanville's knee right in his face.

Barbeary looked great for the short time he was on. The Bath medic who encouraged him to try and run off his injury made a really bad call. Alfie barely made it six jogged steps.

by doctor_grey Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:15 pm

So....Marcus Smith put in a man-of-the-match performance today. I can see some people saying he only does it at club level. But to me, it shows what he can do with a 9 and (especially) a 12 who suits his style of play. And in a structure that allows him to do what he does. Not sure Borthwick has it in him to give the keys over to Smith. Too radically different. And if Smith is not tried with complementary players then we will never know.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:53 pm

doctor_grey wrote:So....Marcus Smith put in a man-of-the-match performance today. I can see some people saying he only does it at club level. But to me, it shows what he can do with a 9 and (especially) a 12 who suits his style of play. And in a structure that allows him to do what he does. Not sure Borthwick has it in him to give the keys over to Smith. Too radically different. And if Smith is not tried with complementary players then we will never know.

And yet one of Smith's worst performances I've seen was with Care at 9 and Mark Atkinson at 12 Vs the Baabaas.

International rugby is a significant step up. I think it's a case that he just needs more experience, it'll help him gain some more patience. Of course it'll be easier when the rest of the side is more settled in which is why I think Borthwick has preferred Farrell, hoping that his experience would help bridge the period where he's bedding in a lot of other new combinations.

Not unusual to see players tear it up at club level but make less impact at international level.

by Geordie Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:23 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Will Stuart off with a HIA for Bath and looking very dazed. A shame as he was strong is his later England appearances.

Barbeary went off soon after coming off too. Injuries really hampering his development at the moment. Few players can make yards against set defences like Barbeary. Hopefully he can get fit and fulfil that potential.

Will Stuart was a bit unlucky. He ran a blocking line and stopped right under where the ball was about to land but didn't jump. Potter and de Glanville both did however. Stuart got Potter's hip in the back of his head and de Glanville's knee right in his face.

Barbeary looked great for the short time he was on. The Bath medic who encouraged him to try and run off his injury made a really bad call. Alfie barely made it six jogged steps.

Why is Barbeary even mentioned? Waste of time

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:43 am

doctor_grey wrote:So....Marcus Smith put in a man-of-the-match performance today. I can see some people saying he only does it at club level. But to me, it shows what he can do with a 9 and (especially) a 12 who suits his style of play. And in a structure that allows him to do what he does. Not sure Borthwick has it in him to give the keys over to Smith. Too radically different. And if Smith is not tried with complementary players then we will never know.

Pfffttt.....I don't know Doc.

A 12 who suits his play....you mean arguably the best 12 in world rugby right now? And against a weakened Exeter side?

I just can't read too much into this really, despite being a big Smith fan. We don't have a world class option at 12 so if Smith wants to kick on with England, he needs to adapt his game to work with what we do have....rather than England looking for these players to suit Mr Smith.

Smith for me is a post WC option now.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:49 am

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Slade is in theory a very classy player but he rarely stands out despite his 50 odd caps. Still an important player for us.
Depends what you're looking for by standout to be fair. I'd say how quickly the defence improved in R2 and R3 compared to is standout and Slade deserves credit for that. Especially given that Lawrence isn't experienced either as a 12 or at international level.

I wouldn't argue that Slade is perfect, have in fact argued the opposite many times. I seem to remember going on multiple rants around Lions selection when folk mentioned his versatility as a reason to pick him for instance as apparently he covers 13, 12, 10 and 15 but actually only plays one well!

Similarly I think his kicking can be a touch overstated. Definitely a good kicker but can be inconsistent with his accuracy. The left boot angle is very useful to have but if he were right footed I do wonder if he'd kick as much as he does. He's a solid second tactical kicker or good third option to have in the back line. As opposed to players such as Ramos or Hogg who are secondary kickers that are good enough tactical kickers at their best to be a primary option.

I hope that over Borthwick's reign we see some of the younger talents offer his defensive attributes and much more in attack. As things stand I think he's been a vital part of what England have seen improve in the last two games.

I'd agree with that and also add that we don't have a readymade replacement waiting to step in.

Or We move Lawrence to his actual 13 spot and bring in one of Kelly, Atkinson, Hartley etc at 12 going forward.

Or we give Lawerence/Slade some game time together and see if they can build some kind of partnership and understanding? Imagine a midfield where both players are on a similar wavelength and know each others game inside out.

I think Lawerence/Slade have a nice balance and could become a bit of a mainstay.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:14 am

Well the midfield defence with Farrell and Marchant was terrible and Lawerence has impressed from a defensive and an attacking perspective. Suddenly we have a real running threat even with little space. Slade as said isn't do much of anything in attack, but it's just about fine for now. If Kelly had been fit I doubt we would have seen Lawrence at all.

Smith yesterday has done all he could to force his way in. Best player on the pitch, controlled the game, looked dangerous throughout. Kicking in 90s. For me it's a no brainer to start him vs France.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:02 am

Hopefully SB isn't as reactionary as you 7.5.

Same backline, lets build some continuity....I'm liking how we're developing.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:25 am

I'm reactionary in what respect Sarge? In dropping Farrell or Slade? I'd accept on the current squad, Slade stays from a defensive perspective, I don't expect him to have much of an attacking contribution in the next 2 games consistently. I said in the AIs he was actually doing well from first phase structured attacking moves, it's more when he has decisions to make it comes unstuck, he'll basically kick it ignoring wider players. We may see some moves he's learnt come to the fore! Throw in I'd bin Malins of course.

by mountain man Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:10 am

I'd be very surprised if Smith started against France. I'd say there are two scenarions which could force it. Farrell out injured or Farrell playing 12. Neither which options are good for England.
I suspect Farrell starts but Borthwick gives Smith more time off bench, of course this will probably depend upon how game is going after say 50 mins.

As for centres I'd leave Lawrence and Slade at 12 13. In fact I'd keep same starting XV.

by formerly known as Sam Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:19 am

Borthwick made some pretty left field selections when he was in charge at Tigers and he's not been shy of dropping players or combinations that haven't worked. Ask Marchant and Youngs. I remember at the start of his tenure the offy board would be incredulous (at best) with some of the selections and then the plan would unfold over 80 mins and more often than not it tended to be a good call, I wouldn't rule out changes or a reshuffle.

That being said he'll also be mindful of how much he's trying to bed in, in one go. New defence, attack, set piece etc it's been a pretty much rip up and start again. The less changes probably the better at this point though Farrell must be sweating as I doubt Steve will have been saying that performance was fine behind closed doors, not his style to shove players under the bus ala Eddie.

I would like to see Freeman come into the side though. He comes off his wing well and though he doesn't have the kicking game of Malins he's just as good a finisher. Would offer us another powerful ball carrier coming into the line. A more threatening back three with two 16 stone options and Watson's fast feet.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:52 am

I'd be happy with the same XV...perhaps Lawes starting or Curry getting involved in the squad at a push.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:19 am

Reactionary?

Think you're being a bit harsh on Freeman there sam, he's miles better than Malins on finishing.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:57 am

Malins deserves his spot for now....and its not like anybody is tearing up trees behind him.

With OHC deservedly ousted.......it would be interesting to see who's behind Arundel, probably Murley? I like Freeman though....solid option.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:58 am

What do you mean by reactionary though sarge?

by Yoda Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:13 pm

For me malins is a fullback. He has some lovely touches and did throw himself around against Wales. However he needs to bulk up a bit for international rugby as the Welsh team do not ask questions physically. There's no doubting his attacking skills (intercept passes aside) but he will get physically dominated against top teams and in the system that England are going down. He's another Elliot Daly for me, a jack of all trades a master of none. When big Joe and Freeman come into the mix I suspect they will suit SB blue print better.

With France on the horizon our best bet is playing tight and forcing them into errors and frustrating them. Farrell, Lawrence Slade have been good defensively so should stay as the nucleus with smith coming on to spark an attack (hopefully with more than 14 sec). If we try to attack too much against France I think we will lose. However I fully accept I could be wrong but both Italy and Scotland overplayed and got done over in the end by les bleus.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you mean by reactionary though sarge?

Can't speak for Sarge, as I don't know the bloke, but I wonder if he meant reactive, or knee-jerk, in the sense of favouring Smith just in response to one performance yesterday. Not reactionary, in the sense of turning away from new ideas, and falling back on the old guard.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:58 pm

I'm guessing that's what he meant but I haven't exactly changed my mind on Smith.

by lostinwales Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:22 pm

Yoda wrote:For me malins is a fullback. He has some lovely touches and did throw himself around against Wales. However he needs to bulk up a bit for international rugby as the Welsh team do not ask questions physically. There's no doubting his attacking skills (intercept passes aside) but he will get physically dominated against top teams and in the system that England are going down. He's another Elliot Daly for me, a jack of all trades a master of none. When big Joe and Freeman come into the mix I suspect they will suit SB blue print better.

With France on the horizon our best bet is playing tight and forcing them into errors and frustrating them. Farrell, Lawrence Slade have been good defensively so should stay as the nucleus with smith coming on to spark an attack (hopefully with more than 14 sec). If we try to attack too much against France I think we will lose. However I fully accept I could be wrong but both Italy and Scotland overplayed and got done over in the end by les bleus.

I'd disagree on the 'like Daly' argument. Daly had more than his fair share of howlers catching the ball but he could be a genuine threat with ball in hand, plus the long range kicking. He was selected for the Lions. You are never going to see Malins getting a look in for the Lions.

by formerly known as Sam Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Reactionary?

Think you're being a bit harsh on Freeman there sam, he's miles better than Malins on finishing.

9 tries in 12 starts (2 sub appearances), 2 in 3 for England for Malins. Freeman has 9 from 14 starts for Saints and 0 from 1 start for England.

So pretty comparable really. Malins is very good at finishing to be fair to him. Freeman would offer more pace and power around the park then.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:20 pm

Well if you're just pulling tries out fair enough. But thought we were thinking on how good a finisher both are. To me that's 2 different things. Yes Malins has 2 tries on a plate which brings him to 2 in 3 or 2 in 15 if you want to view it a different way but I'd expect any winger in the prem to have finished those 2. I think Freeman is the better of the 2.

by doctor_grey Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:05 pm

mountain man wrote:I'd be very surprised if Smith started against France. I'd say there are two scenarions which could force it. Farrell out injured or Farrell playing 12. Neither which options are good for England.
I suspect Farrell starts but Borthwick gives Smith more time off bench, of course this will probably depend upon how game is going after say 50 mins.

As for centres I'd leave Lawrence and Slade at 12 13. In fact I'd keep same starting XV.

I agree with you about Farrell, though I think it's the wrong thing to do. Just watch Farrell - he doesn't move as well and doesn't seem as strong. Not sure if the endless grubbers are due to some over-cooked strategy or whether he just doesn't feel it in the legs.

If Farrell gets hurt for any reason, and there is a lot of mileage in those 100 caps, then there is no real game tested halfback pairing. It almost defies logic that Borthwick and team don't get it. Are they so focused on winning each game (or rather, afraid of losing) they won't take a risk which could really pay off? Smith is not some neophyte and would at the minimum hold his own out there. Perhaps show he is not the man for the RWC. Perhaps he might show he is. With a big hole at 10 if Farrell goes down, no one will want to hear excuses.

by king_carlos Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:10 pm

lostinwales wrote:I'd disagree on the 'like Daly' argument. Daly had more than his fair share of howlers catching the ball but he could be a genuine threat with ball in hand, plus the long range kicking. He was selected for the Lions. You are never going to see Malins getting a look in for the Lions.

Daly's peak was very high. His work in the wide spaces as a distributor who could also threaten as a runner completely changed how England attacked. He was one of only 3 Lions players in 2017 to play every minute of the tests alongside Jonathan Davies and Faletau.

His form this season for Sarries was absolutely fantastic prior to injury. He was one of the standout players in the league. Had he not got injured I think he may have been starting in Malins place here.

I've mentioned it a few times but England are clearly using Steward, Malins and Farrell to try to control kick tennis battles. It gives them three strong kickers, one exceptional high ball option in Steward and another good one in Malins. They are using that to manipulate kicking battles so that they can place Steward in areas where the opposition would look to compete as often as possible. That leaves the option of kicking shorter to Steward, kicking long but giving Farrell and/or Malins time to dictate play or running into a strong kick chase. Non of which are ideal and it's showed signs of being very effective given they are only three games in.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:36 am

Squad update in.....

Can't see many surprises;

No Tom Curry still
Smith, Ford and Farrell as 10 option........(Smith to drop out?)
Arundell, Freeman, Malins, Murley, Watson on the wings.....(Freeman and Murley to drop out?)

by No 7&1/2 Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:59 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Squad update in.....

Can't see many surprises;

No Tom Curry still
Smith, Ford and Farrell as 10 option........(Smith to drop out?)
Arundell, Freeman, Malins, Murley, Watson on the wings.....(Freeman and Murley to drop out?)

Too reactionary.

by Geordie Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:20 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Slade is in theory a very classy player but he rarely stands out despite his 50 odd caps. Still an important player for us.
Depends what you're looking for by standout to be fair. I'd say how quickly the defence improved in R2 and R3 compared to is standout and Slade deserves credit for that. Especially given that Lawrence isn't experienced either as a 12 or at international level.

I wouldn't argue that Slade is perfect, have in fact argued the opposite many times. I seem to remember going on multiple rants around Lions selection when folk mentioned his versatility as a reason to pick him for instance as apparently he covers 13, 12, 10 and 15 but actually only plays one well!

Similarly I think his kicking can be a touch overstated. Definitely a good kicker but can be inconsistent with his accuracy. The left boot angle is very useful to have but if he were right footed I do wonder if he'd kick as much as he does. He's a solid second tactical kicker or good third option to have in the back line. As opposed to players such as Ramos or Hogg who are secondary kickers that are good enough tactical kickers at their best to be a primary option.

I hope that over Borthwick's reign we see some of the younger talents offer his defensive attributes and much more in attack. As things stand I think he's been a vital part of what England have seen improve in the last two games.

I'd agree with that and also add that we don't have a readymade replacement waiting to step in.

Or We move Lawrence to his actual 13 spot and bring in one of Kelly, Atkinson, Hartley etc at 12 going forward.

Or we give Lawerence/Slade some game time together and see if they can build some kind of partnership and understanding? Imagine a midfield where both players are on a similar wavelength and know each others game inside out.

I think Lawerence/Slade have a nice balance and could become a bit of a mainstay.

Slade is a classy player for Exeter. Weve never seen those performances consistently at this level. Maybe thats because of who he has around him etc...we shall see with lawrence in there now. But i think he'll go to the world cup and then be replaced.

by king_carlos Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:06 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Squad update in.....

Can't see many surprises;

No Tom Curry still
Smith, Ford and Farrell as 10 option........(Smith to drop out?)
Arundell, Freeman, Malins, Murley, Watson on the wings.....(Freeman and Murley to drop out?)

Turry's out of the tournament now after injuring the other hamstring, sadly.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:30 am

Totally missed that one KC, shame.

by mountain man Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:33 am

I don't think Curry being missed particularly, it's one area England do have strength in depth the back row.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:42 am

I would have him over Willis in a heartbeat, a good step up in quality.

by mountain man Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:46 am

Apart from Curry gets rushes to head and gives away silly pens? He's a brilliant player but I'd say over last 12 months rather like Itoje his Eng form took a dive.

by doctor_grey Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:04 am

Curry (Tom) is a very good player, but I think the back row, and the pack in general, is generally fine. And will most likely not be a reason for a loss, though could be a cause of a win.

I do wonder about Dombrandt a bit. Really enjoy how he plays, but just a wee bit unsure against France or Ireland. Could easily see Ludlum moved to 8 and Lawes on the blind side. But would prefer the same starting pack as against Wales.

by Geordie Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:06 am

I noticed that Itoje has confimed hes being asked to play a different role at the moment...hence why his performances look to have reduced a bit.

Hes hitting more rucks and doing more of the workhorse style stuff that maybe Kruis used to do. Is that because we dont have a Kruis replacement?

Be interesting to see how the lock partnership develops.

by mountain man Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:11 am

France have such a big physical pack, my only concern about Dombrandt is his carrying in traffic. Will he be able to make metres, bust tackles etc.
Anyway, given how physical France are I'd say keep ball in play as much as possible and try and tire out their front 5. A fast, open running game is more suited to Dombrandt anyway.

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