England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would have him over Willis in a heartbeat, a good step up in quality.

Geordie wrote:I noticed that Itoje has confimed hes being asked to play a different role at the moment...hence why his performances look to have reduced a bit.

Hes hitting more rucks and doing more of the workhorse style stuff that maybe Kruis used to do. Is that because we dont have a Kruis replacement?

Be interesting to see how the lock partnership develops.

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:I noticed that Itoje has confimed hes being asked to play a different role at the moment...hence why his performances look to have reduced a bit.

Hes hitting more rucks and doing more of the workhorse style stuff that maybe Kruis used to do. Is that because we dont have a Kruis replacement?

Be interesting to see how the lock partnership develops.

I think Itoje has been playing much better with Chessum alongside him than with Hill. Less flashy, maybe, but he's been making fewer of the silly mistakes that creep in when he's trying to do too much.

I suspect Curry may have been in a similar place - when really good players feel the gaps around them they are tempted to try to solve them for themselves and overreach. The last few games he's played the back row has felt a bit unbalanced and I think he was trying to do too much. Arguably Smith has been in a similar position, trying to force things when he hasn't had the options around him.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:I noticed that Itoje has confimed hes being asked to play a different role at the moment...hence why his performances look to have reduced a bit.

Hes hitting more rucks and doing more of the workhorse style stuff that maybe Kruis used to do. Is that because we dont have a Kruis replacement?

Be interesting to see how the lock partnership develops.

I think Itoje has been playing much better with Chessum alongside him than with Hill. Less flashy, maybe, but he's been making fewer of the silly mistakes that creep in when he's trying to do too much.

I suspect Curry may have been in a similar place - when really good players feel the gaps around them they are tempted to try to solve them for themselves and overreach. The last few games he's played the back row has felt a bit unbalanced and I think he was trying to do too much. Arguably Smith has been in a similar position, trying to force things when he hasn't had the options around him.

Agree with this.....I felt at times it looked Itoje and Curry had the weight of the world on their shoulders carrying a struggling side.

Borthwick seems to have brought more clarity and Curry is a known top top class player. I wouldn't be adverse to any of the potential combo's when all clicking...

6. Ludlam/Lawes
7. Curry/Underhill
8. Dombrandt

Nice balance and some outstanding options with Willis etc pushing for spots too.

Geordie wrote:I noticed that Itoje has confimed hes being asked to play a different role at the moment...hence why his performances look to have reduced a bit.

Hes hitting more rucks and doing more of the workhorse style stuff that maybe Kruis used to do. Is that because we dont have a Kruis replacement?

Be interesting to see how the lock partnership develops.

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:I noticed that Itoje has confimed hes being asked to play a different role at the moment...hence why his performances look to have reduced a bit.

Hes hitting more rucks and doing more of the workhorse style stuff that maybe Kruis used to do. Is that because we dont have a Kruis replacement?

Be interesting to see how the lock partnership develops.

We do have a close to direct Kruis replacement in Ribbans.  Not saying he is Kruis in his prime, but the closest we have that is in or close to the squad.  He loves the same donkey work that Kruis did very well.  I don't think Itoje has the same meat on his bones to do that kind of work consistently.  He does so much very well (despite current dip in form) but endless ruck pounding is not one of them.

Ribbans does a lot of the same work that Jonny Hill does (or, hopefully, did) for England, but smarter, more effective, and with better hair.

Geordie wrote:So it would appear Mr Borthwick is pushing to have players abroad available for selection.

Could have big implications for the clubs etc...

mountain man wrote:At least Mitchell getting a chance and has showed in the small amount of time he's had on pitch he's got what it takes. Quirke fit and playing again so he might get back into reckoning as well.

Chessum playing to the manor born, rather like Steward at 15 he has look he could be in team for years.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wonder what SB isn't quite seeing in Ribbans as he looked great in his brief time in an England shirt?

Something has to give on the foreign policy, I'm sure this will be resolved to some level post WC.

lostinwales wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wonder what SB isn't quite seeing in Ribbans as he looked great in his brief time in an England shirt?

Something has to give on the foreign policy, I'm sure this will be resolved to some level post WC.

Possibly more to do with what he is seeing with the Itoje/ Chiessum combo

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not suggesting breaking up that combination....he's not even made the bench.

mountain man wrote:Manu banned though so think he's there for Lawrence and Slade to practise tackling for Bundee Aki.

Are you surprised Malins is in? He deserves to play.

mountain man wrote:Manu banned though so think he's there for Lawrence and Slade to practise tackling for Bundee Aki.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Anyone else think there might be a surprise return to the 6:2 bench for one week only?

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Anyone else think there might be a surprise return to the 6:2 bench for one week only?

Given they haven't subbed one lock let alone both so far I'd be pretty surprised myself but you never know!

Marcus Smith is in serious consideration to start for England in a high-tempo game plan to be unleashed against France at Twickenham on Saturday.

It is understood the Harlequins fly-half is primed for a return to the starting XV in place of Owen Farrell following his man-of-the-match display for his club against Exeter Chiefs last Saturday.

While injury issues, including a fresh set-back to Courtney Lawes, who was expected to captain the side if Farrell was rotated to the bench, forced further selection debate, it is understood that the England management have been highly impressed by Smith’s impact in training since his return from his club.

If Smith starts, Ellis Genge, one of the two vice-captains, is likely to be handed the captaincy for England’s final competitive match at Twickenham before the World Cup in France later this year.

Farrell, however, would be expected to play a significant role off the bench in attempting to manage the second half if he does not start.

Smith was released by Borthwick from the England squad last week with the instruction to seize the No 10 shirt by delivering a commanding display for Harlequins under the watchful eye of the national side’s interim attack coach Nick Evans and did not disappoint.



“I thought Marcus was outstanding,” said Kevin Sinfield, England’s defence coach. “We all did. But he has trained like that over the last six weeks. We've seen first-hand what he's been capable of and he's in the mix this week.

“Selfishly as a coaching team, and Steve in particular, could have kept him in camp but he wanted to do the right thing by Marcus. He cares about the lads and wants to do the best for them. Unfortunately, it can’t always be handled that way because of the make-up of who we need and how we train. But there was an opportunity to get vital minutes into Marcus.”

George Ford, who was called into the squad in place of Smith for the training camp in Brighton, has been released to play for his club Sale Sharks against London Irish in the Premiership on Sunday.

Smith and Farrell started the opening Six Nations defeat by Scotland at fly-half and inside centre respectively but England are unlikely to return to that combination, given the impact Ollie Lawrence has made at inside centre in the victories over Italy and Wales.

Dropping Farrell, whose kicking success rate has only been 47 per cent in the first three rounds of the championship, would undoubtedly represent the biggest call yet of Borthwick’s fledgling tenure as England head coach.

Smith has played a bit-part role since being dropped, including just a 14-second cameo against Wales. And yet there is a feeling that pace will be a key factor in England’s bid to defeat last year’s Grand Slam champions. That could see Smith paired with Jack van Poortvliet, who is set to retain his role at scrum-half ahead of Northampton Saints’ Alex Mitchell.

And while Farrell could only manage two successful kicks out of six against Wales, Smith landed five conversions from six in the 40-5 victory over Exeter.

“It looked like he enjoyed himself, didn't he?” said Farrell. “He played very well, so it’s only good for us. You only had to look at the game to see how much he enjoyed himself and how much of a spring he’ll have in his step coming into camp this week.

“If the whole team was all over the place last week and then you tried to implement an idea, a strategy, you’d be pulling in information from everywhere. It’s not, Marcus has been playing with his club, has played well at the weekend, and I’d say he was up to speed when we got on the training field. I wouldn’t say it’s difficult for him.”

The conundrum sheds a fascinating light on Borthwick’s mindset. What seems certain is that no player, even the captain, is guaranteed his place, with form and strategy the overriding factors taken into account in selection.

England’s game plan has been relatively limited in the opening three rounds as Borthwick focused on improving the side’s setpiece and defence.

Yet with the promise of adding more layers to the attacking game, it seems he is considering fighting fire with fire against the free-flowing French, a prospect that is likely to delight the Twickenham crowd.

The prospect of facing France, ranked second in the World Rugby rankings, followed by the top-ranked side Ireland in Dublin on Saturday week, offers England the chance to prepare for their Six Nations finale as if it were the World Cup knock-out stages in France and Borthwick is renowned for his attention to detail and forward planning.

Lawes, who made his first appearance off the bench against Wales since captaining the side in Australia last summer, has been ruled out of the remainder of the championship with a shoulder injury.

“You are disappointed because he wants to play rugby and you take that away from any player…. Most players can handle being left out of teams or squads or a lack of form but injury is different,” added Sinfield.

“Injury puts you in a different place mentally, if you look across the game over the last 10 years at guys who get a little bit older, I know he is not that old, but he has played that amount of rugby, the amount of minutes he has played you can get into a position when an injury leads to another one and another one and sometimes that is how desperate players are to get back fit but he will be back soon.”

David Ribbans and Nick Isiekwe remain in the squad in Lawes’s absence, while Manu Tuilagi, currently suspended, is thought to have played a key role in testing the England midfield during training.

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph thinks Smith might start, though plans might be complicated by the availabillity of Lawes to start, and take over the captaincy.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/england-six-nations-sqaud-latest-george-ford-marcus-smith/

Marcus Smith is in serious consideration to start for England in a high-tempo game plan to be unleashed against France at Twickenham on Saturday.

It is understood the Harlequins fly-half is primed for a return to the starting XV in place of Owen Farrell following his man-of-the-match display for his club against Exeter Chiefs last Saturday.

While injury issues, including a fresh set-back to Courtney Lawes, who was expected to captain the side if Farrell was rotated to the bench, forced further selection debate, it is understood that the England management have been highly impressed by Smith’s impact in training since his return from his club.

If Smith starts, Ellis Genge, one of the two vice-captains, is likely to be handed the captaincy for England’s final competitive match at Twickenham before the World Cup in France later this year.

Farrell, however, would be expected to play a significant role off the bench in attempting to manage the second half if he does not start.

Smith was released by Borthwick from the England squad last week with the instruction to seize the No 10 shirt by delivering a commanding display for Harlequins under the watchful eye of the national side’s interim attack coach Nick Evans and did not disappoint.



“I thought Marcus was outstanding,” said Kevin Sinfield, England’s defence coach. “We all did. But he has trained like that over the last six weeks. We've seen first-hand what he's been capable of and he's in the mix this week.

“Selfishly as a coaching team, and Steve in particular, could have kept him in camp but he wanted to do the right thing by Marcus. He cares about the lads and wants to do the best for them. Unfortunately, it can’t always be handled that way because of the make-up of who we need and how we train. But there was an opportunity to get vital minutes into Marcus.”

George Ford, who was called into the squad in place of Smith for the training camp in Brighton, has been released to play for his club Sale Sharks against London Irish in the Premiership on Sunday.

Smith and Farrell started the opening Six Nations defeat by Scotland at fly-half and inside centre respectively but England are unlikely to return to that combination, given the impact Ollie Lawrence has made at inside centre in the victories over Italy and Wales.

Dropping Farrell, whose kicking success rate has only been 47 per cent in the first three rounds of the championship, would undoubtedly represent the biggest call yet of Borthwick’s fledgling tenure as England head coach.

Smith has played a bit-part role since being dropped, including just a 14-second cameo against Wales. And yet there is a feeling that pace will be a key factor in England’s bid to defeat last year’s Grand Slam champions. That could see Smith paired with Jack van Poortvliet, who is set to retain his role at scrum-half ahead of Northampton Saints’ Alex Mitchell.

And while Farrell could only manage two successful kicks out of six against Wales, Smith landed five conversions from six in the 40-5 victory over Exeter.

“It looked like he enjoyed himself, didn't he?” said Farrell. “He played very well, so it’s only good for us. You only had to look at the game to see how much he enjoyed himself and how much of a spring he’ll have in his step coming into camp this week.

“If the whole team was all over the place last week and then you tried to implement an idea, a strategy, you’d be pulling in information from everywhere. It’s not, Marcus has been playing with his club, has played well at the weekend, and I’d say he was up to speed when we got on the training field. I wouldn’t say it’s difficult for him.”

The conundrum sheds a fascinating light on Borthwick’s mindset. What seems certain is that no player, even the captain, is guaranteed his place, with form and strategy the overriding factors taken into account in selection.

England’s game plan has been relatively limited in the opening three rounds as Borthwick focused on improving the side’s setpiece and defence.

Yet with the promise of adding more layers to the attacking game, it seems he is considering fighting fire with fire against the free-flowing French, a prospect that is likely to delight the Twickenham crowd.

The prospect of facing France, ranked second in the World Rugby rankings, followed by the top-ranked side Ireland in Dublin on Saturday week, offers England the chance to prepare for their Six Nations finale as if it were the World Cup knock-out stages in France and Borthwick is renowned for his attention to detail and forward planning.

Lawes, who made his first appearance off the bench against Wales since captaining the side in Australia last summer, has been ruled out of the remainder of the championship with a shoulder injury.

“You are disappointed because he wants to play rugby and you take that away from any player…. Most players can handle being left out of teams or squads or a lack of form but injury is different,” added Sinfield.

“Injury puts you in a different place mentally, if you look across the game over the last 10 years at guys who get a little bit older, I know he is not that old, but he has played that amount of rugby, the amount of minutes he has played you can get into a position when an injury leads to another one and another one and sometimes that is how desperate players are to get back fit but he will be back soon.”

David Ribbans and Nick Isiekwe remain in the squad in Lawes’s absence, while Manu Tuilagi, currently suspended, is thought to have played a key role in testing the England midfield during training.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It's an interesting twist on the normal England fly half narrative. Normally it's the swashbuckling, maverick creator vs the steady eddy nuts and bolts machine. This time the machine is being criticised for the basics of kicking and tackling while looking pretty decent with ball in hand creation and the maverick is not creating tries every time he touches the ball, but all the fundamentals are there. Interesting choice but I can't get away from you can't have a kicker in your team with 40 odd % conversion.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It's an interesting twist on the normal England fly half narrative. Normally it's the swashbuckling, maverick creator vs the steady eddy nuts and bolts machine. This time the machine is being criticised for the basics of kicking and tackling while looking pretty decent with ball in hand creation and the maverick is not creating tries every time he touches the ball, but all the fundamentals are there. Interesting choice but I can't get away from you can't have a kicker in your team with 40 odd % conversion.

I can't recall Farrell being overly criticised for his tackling this 6N....if anything, his defence has been superb. On the attack front (not Italy) we have 6 tries in 2 games......compared to the disappointing 3 tries in 4 games with Smith at 10 last year.

You can't argue with the kicking stats though, Farrell has been very poor.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It's an interesting twist on the normal England fly half narrative. Normally it's the swashbuckling, maverick creator vs the steady eddy nuts and bolts machine. This time the machine is being criticised for the basics of kicking and tackling while looking pretty decent with ball in hand creation and the maverick is not creating tries every time he touches the ball, but all the fundamentals are there. Interesting choice but I can't get away from you can't have a kicker in your team with 40 odd % conversion.

I can't recall Farrell being overly criticised for his tackling this 6N....if anything, his defence has been superb. On the attack front (not Italy) we have 6 tries in 2 games......compared to the disappointing 3 tries in 4 games with Smith at 10 last year.

You can't argue with the kicking stats though, Farrell has been very poor.

Geordie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It's an interesting twist on the normal England fly half narrative. Normally it's the swashbuckling, maverick creator vs the steady eddy nuts and bolts machine. This time the machine is being criticised for the basics of kicking and tackling while looking pretty decent with ball in hand creation and the maverick is not creating tries every time he touches the ball, but all the fundamentals are there. Interesting choice but I can't get away from you can't have a kicker in your team with 40 odd % conversion.

I can't recall Farrell being overly criticised for his tackling this 6N....if anything, his defence has been superb. On the attack front (not Italy) we have 6 tries in 2 games......compared to the disappointing 3 tries in 4 games with Smith at 10 last year.

You can't argue with the kicking stats though, Farrell has been very poor.

How much is Lawrences influence in there....having an actual proactive strike running 12 as opposed to Farrell...

Geordie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It's an interesting twist on the normal England fly half narrative. Normally it's the swashbuckling, maverick creator vs the steady eddy nuts and bolts machine. This time the machine is being criticised for the basics of kicking and tackling while looking pretty decent with ball in hand creation and the maverick is not creating tries every time he touches the ball, but all the fundamentals are there. Interesting choice but I can't get away from you can't have a kicker in your team with 40 odd % conversion.

I can't recall Farrell being overly criticised for his tackling this 6N....if anything, his defence has been superb. On the attack front (not Italy) we have 6 tries in 2 games......compared to the disappointing 3 tries in 4 games with Smith at 10 last year.

You can't argue with the kicking stats though, Farrell has been very poor.

How much is Lawrences influence in there....having an actual proactive strike running 12 as opposed to Farrell...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It's an interesting twist on the normal England fly half narrative. Normally it's the swashbuckling, maverick creator vs the steady eddy nuts and bolts machine. This time the machine is being criticised for the basics of kicking and tackling while looking pretty decent with ball in hand creation and the maverick is not creating tries every time he touches the ball, but all the fundamentals are there. Interesting choice but I can't get away from you can't have a kicker in your team with 40 odd % conversion.

I can't recall Farrell being overly criticised for his tackling this 6N....if anything, his defence has been superb. On the attack front (not Italy) we have 6 tries in 2 games......compared to the disappointing 3 tries in 4 games with Smith at 10 last year.

You can't argue with the kicking stats though, Farrell has been very poor.

How much is Lawrences influence in there....having an actual proactive strike running 12 as opposed to Farrell...

Farrell didn't play any games at 12 last 6N, he was out injured.

I'm not aiming this it you GF, but as soon as something negative is suggested about Smith (in this case our lack of tries), people tend to jump to his defence stating it's not really his fault.....usually with the Farrell at 12 thing. Smith has not produced in an England shirt, that's the bread and butter of it.....he's not been good enough.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If he does get a start, I hope he produces. We can't continue finding excuses for the lad.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If he does get a start, I hope he produces. We can't continue finding excuses for the lad.....

He's produced already for me, but I suppose it's what exactly you're looking for. A good example is the last game. Comes on with 15 seconds to go, gets pretty ok ball, the options he wants ain't there so ball gets recycled and goes wide with Arundell running out of space. So for me I was thinking, shame he didn't get longer whereas there was the view from Sam (I think) in that he ran up a blind alley and should really have created a try scoring move. A little bit like the Itoje reviews, we know how good they are so if they're not all conquering then they're poor, whereas in comparison with their peers they hold up well.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't buy into this, a top 10 adapts to what he has.

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't buy into this, a top 10 adapts to what he has.

This. Something I've argued many times in the Smith debate. I find the insistence that he needs particular players or even club partners around him to be on the same wavelength as his teammates really odd. It's something you so rarely hear with others. I can't remember many arguing for Daly to return because he plays at Sarries with Farrell for instance. Yet with Smith I've heard it said a lot in relation to Care, Dombrandt and Marchant, even mentioned around Murley and Lynagh.

To be a top international, which Smith definitely has the talent to be, in any position let alone at 10 you need to be able to mould yourself to the tactics and teammates that suit the squad not having the squad and tactics moulded around one player. It's something I've been saying from the earliest mentions of "building a backline around Smith".

For all the talk of Smith having the insurmountable obstacle of Farrell outside him at 12 didn't Ford won 3 Six Nations as fly-half with the same player outside him for instance?

I definitely think Smith can by a fantastic international fly-half but he has been poor in several of his chances. The lack of adaption to varying his depth more against international defences last Six Nations being a key example. Some astonishingly poor attacking kicks not taking into account how much better international back threes cover space being another - the speculative cross-field kick straight to Jaminet from our own 22 that gave France their try just before half time last year being a true stinker!

That's not to say he hasn't had good moments too. I think there was definitely signs of him directing the attack much more smartly in the summer and autumn. He was starting to work phases in advance (almost Ford-esque one might say...  ) to manipulate the defence really well. The ridiculous error count that plagued the later EJ games didn't take full advantage but it was definitely there. That's what will make Smith a world class international 10 though. The half a dozen phases before the pass or kick that ends up on the highlights reel. Or the quickly forgotten kick tennis battles that win a big net gain giving an attacking lineout from which a first phase strike play works.

Carter is the greatest example of this. He started out as a flashy running fly-half playing 12. He ended his career as the pragmatic head and heartbeat of the best side I've seen play rugby who kicked more than any other side in the game but did so to create chances from which DC still used all the skills seen in those early fireworks to ruthlessly cut through defences.

hugehandoff wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't buy into this, a top 10 adapts to what he has.

This. Something I've argued many times in the Smith debate. I find the insistence that he needs particular players or even club partners around him to be on the same wavelength as his teammates really odd. It's something you so rarely hear with others. I can't remember many arguing for Daly to return because he plays at Sarries with Farrell for instance. Yet with Smith I've heard it said a lot in relation to Care, Dombrandt and Marchant, even mentioned around Murley and Lynagh.

To be a top international, which Smith definitely has the talent to be, in any position let alone at 10 you need to be able to mould yourself to the tactics and teammates that suit the squad not having the squad and tactics moulded around one player. It's something I've been saying from the earliest mentions of "building a backline around Smith".

For all the talk of Smith having the insurmountable obstacle of Farrell outside him at 12 didn't Ford won 3 Six Nations as fly-half with the same player outside him for instance?

I definitely think Smith can by a fantastic international fly-half but he has been poor in several of his chances. The lack of adaption to varying his depth more against international defences last Six Nations being a key example. Some astonishingly poor attacking kicks not taking into account how much better international back threes cover space being another - the speculative cross-field kick straight to Jaminet from our own 22 that gave France their try just before half time last year being a true stinker!

That's not to say he hasn't had good moments too. I think there was definitely signs of him directing the attack much more smartly in the summer and autumn. He was starting to work phases in advance (almost Ford-esque one might say...  ) to manipulate the defence really well. The ridiculous error count that plagued the later EJ games didn't take full advantage but it was definitely there. That's what will make Smith a world class international 10 though. The half a dozen phases before the pass or kick that ends up on the highlights reel. Or the quickly forgotten kick tennis battles that win a big net gain giving an attacking lineout from which a first phase strike play works.

Carter is the greatest example of this. He started out as a flashy running fly-half playing 12. He ended his career as the pragmatic head and heartbeat of the best side I've seen play rugby who kicked more than any other side in the game but did so to create chances from which DC still used all the skills seen in those early fireworks to ruthlessly cut through defences.

Let's be honest about the quality of Smith's performances in a white shirt to date. He has not impressed at all. As you point out can this really be all down to other players and tactics? Maybe he is just not ready to translate club form into international? If Saturday was a knock out RWC match I would start Farrell, but as we probably won't go too far in the RWC with Farrell at 10 then we might as well get Smith in now to run the show. Could be really useful for RWC 2027!