England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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Continued.......

Why would people choose Farrell though? Based on his performances this 6Ns he's impressed no more than Smith Scotland, and his kicking has been poor. Turnovers good enough to keep him as a fly half?

Or he might never be ready at all ala Hodgson? How many caps is enough to show you haven't got it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would people choose Farrell though? Based on his performances this 6Ns he's impressed no more than Smith Scotland, and his kicking has been poor. Turnovers good enough to keep him as a fly half?

Farrell and the backline in general have improved each game....you know, this continuity thing people talk about.

Farrell is a proven top class flyhalf.

There's been some nice moves that's true. Farrell was also a bit under the weather vs Wales, charge down early which on another days could have led to a try, kicking out on the full, the obvious issues with place kicking. I completely get the train of thought that he's proven himself in the past though so will probably come good. And yes continuity can be a good thing; is this the reactionary thing you talked about? Should Borthwick have stuck with Smith after Scotland for instance? Should he be going back to H-Cs now he's fit?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would people choose Farrell though? Based on his performances this 6Ns he's impressed no more than Smith Scotland, and his kicking has been poor. Turnovers good enough to keep him as a fly half?

Farrell and the backline in general have improved each game....you know, this continuity thing people talk about.

Farrell is a proven top class flyhalf.

At Club and European level yes...is he that at international? He can follow gameplans to the letter....but can he break that an be the creative hub required like a Sexton etc or Johnny or previously mentioned Carter etc.

I would say Sexton and Wilkinson executed plans to perfection rather than be a creative hub.

Sexton doesn't go out there and play off the cuff like Russell for example. Everyone in that Irish side knows what Sexton will do and he does it to perfection. This also comes from having a completely settled backline who have played 30/40 times together.

You don't create this magic backline overnight, it takes time. It's no surprise we've improved each game.

When Smith plays, it's like nobody knows what's going on.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would say Sexton and Wilkinson executed plans to perfection rather than be a creative hub.

Sexton doesn't go out there and play off the cuff like Russell for example. Everyone in that Irish side knows what Sexton will do and he does it to perfection. This also comes from having a completely settled backline who have played 30/40 times together.

You don't create this magic backline overnight, it takes time. It's no surprise we've improved each game.

When Smith plays, it's like nobody knows what's going on.

To be fair to Smith, boss, he was playing in a team which was unravelling a bit in The Last Days of Eddie Jones.  I know that sounds like a cheesy excuse, and it may be.  I just don't have a feel for him as an International yet.  Either plus or minus.  And it's usually much easier to tell.  This is why I want to see him get a run.  One way or t'other.  

The thing about Sexton, as you say, everyone in his team knows what he is going to do.  I think the additional point is everyone on both sides know what he is going to do.  It's just the Irish side do it anyway....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would say Sexton and Wilkinson executed plans to perfection rather than be a creative hub.

Sexton doesn't go out there and play off the cuff like Russell for example. Everyone in that Irish side knows what Sexton will do and he does it to perfection. This also comes from having a completely settled backline who have played 30/40 times together.

You don't create this magic backline overnight, it takes time. It's no surprise we've improved each game.

When Smith plays, it's like nobody knows what's going on.

I'm not sure I agree. Both follow the plan to rhe letter but the likes of Johnny could go off plan and create that magic when required. Our 10 doesn't have to play like Russell...he just needs the ability to create when required when the plan isn't working.

I've seen Farrell do it at league and European level but very rarely at this level successfully consistently.

We need to find a 10 that can do rhat. For me it's not farrell for much longer...which leaves a bigger problem for Borthwick.  Smith needs a chance now in this side...which i think he'll be given...but if he doesnt perform..(and let be honest v France and Ireland are as tough as they come at the moment...) then Borthwick is looking at Ford for the World Cup and one of the young pretenders to come in and dominate post WC.

I see Itoje has released in an interview that he has been ill for the last year and only recently had a diagnosis.  This has caused a reduction in his energy and affected his conditioning etc.

He's got it all under control...though no disclosure of what it is.

Regress of rugby I hope he's well...but certainly explains his slightly subdued performances by his standards...

England performances have improved over the course of the tournament but I don't think Farrell has contributed much to that. The attacking moves often bypassed him - so are more dependent on JVP and Lawrence, and his kicking has been below par. It just feels a bit like the game has changed and he hasn't.

I see saint Johnny has been mentioned. One of the things about him was that he seemed to make the players around him play better. I don't think Farrell does that.

Geordie wrote:I see Itoje has released in an interview that he has been ill for the last year and only recently had a diagnosis.  This has caused a reduction in his energy and affected his conditioning etc.

He's got it all under control...though no disclosure of what it is.

Regress of rugby I hope he's well...but certainly explains his slightly subdued performances by his standards...

That's a bit odd, but there are some illnesses or infections which can knock a person back for extended periods. Usually pro athletes who indicate they have some issues get the complete treatment. Surprised it took a while for him to say something and/or the issue to be diagnosed. Unless it is one of those real rare situations.

Going to practice for the spring season tonight. At 9:00pm. I will be a grouchy pain in the posterior tomorrow.

Telegraph is doubling down on the prediction that Smith will start.

Steve Borthwick is on Thursday expected to take the seismic decision to drop England captain Owen Farrell from the side to face France at Twickenham on Saturday, the first time he has been omitted from a major Test match on form since 2015.

Marcus Smith is to be promoted to the fly-half position in place of Farrell, who must be content with a place on the bench against last season’s Grand Slam champions.

Ellis Genge, who captained Leicester under Borthwick to the Premiership title last season, is expected to be appointed captain after Courtney Lawes was ruled out of the remainder of the championship with a shoulder injury

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/03/08/owen-farrell-faces-axe-englands-starting-xv-v-france/

Tim from Eggchasers thinks, if Farrell is dropped, then his kicking form will be the main reason, rather than his distribution.

On the other hand, Mike Tindall thinks Borthwick will go with Smith to try and learn more about his players. In his view, the loss to Scotland demanded a more safety-first approach against Italy and Wales, as they were games England needed to win. Tindall now thinks Borthwick can start Smith, because expectations are lower against France and Ireland (though France have a poor record at Twickenham).

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph is doubling down on the prediction that Smith will start.

Steve Borthwick is on Thursday expected to take the seismic decision to drop England captain Owen Farrell from the side to face France at Twickenham on Saturday, the first time he has been omitted from a major Test match on form since 2015.

Marcus Smith is to be promoted to the fly-half position in place of Farrell, who must be content with a place on the bench against last season’s Grand Slam champions.

Ellis Genge, who captained Leicester under Borthwick to the Premiership title last season, is expected to be appointed captain after Courtney Lawes was ruled out of the remainder of the championship with a shoulder injury

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/03/08/owen-farrell-faces-axe-englands-starting-xv-v-france/

Tim from Eggchasers thinks, if Farrell is dropped, then his kicking form will be the main reason, rather than his distribution.

On the other hand, Mike Tindall thinks Borthwick will go with Smith to try and learn more about his players. In his view, the loss to Scotland demanded a more safety-first approach against Italy and Wales, as they were games England needed to win. Tindall now thinks Borthwick can start Smith, because expectations are lower against France and Ireland (though France have a poor record at Twickenham).

I think dropping Farrell from the XV can only be counted a seismic decision after we see how the subs play out.  If indeed Smith gets a good run and is allowed to play in a way that at least somewhat resembles his game, then we will know about more about both Smith and Borthwick.  For better or worse.

From my experience with pro athletes Farrell has that look of a tired and older player that is starting to lose his legs (at the minimum).  And it's almost always the legs that go first.   That's why I think he needs to be dropped.  If I was managing Farrell, I would have him sit for a few more weeks (club and country).  Just let him rest up a bit more and we see where he is come the RWC training.

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph is doubling down on the prediction that Smith will start.

Steve Borthwick is on Thursday expected to take the seismic decision to drop England captain Owen Farrell from the side to face France at Twickenham on Saturday, the first time he has been omitted from a major Test match on form since 2015.

Marcus Smith is to be promoted to the fly-half position in place of Farrell, who must be content with a place on the bench against last season’s Grand Slam champions.

Ellis Genge, who captained Leicester under Borthwick to the Premiership title last season, is expected to be appointed captain after Courtney Lawes was ruled out of the remainder of the championship with a shoulder injury

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/03/08/owen-farrell-faces-axe-englands-starting-xv-v-france/

Tim from Eggchasers thinks, if Farrell is dropped, then his kicking form will be the main reason, rather than his distribution.

On the other hand, Mike Tindall thinks Borthwick will go with Smith to try and learn more about his players. In his view, the loss to Scotland demanded a more safety-first approach against Italy and Wales, as they were games England needed to win. Tindall now thinks Borthwick can start Smith, because expectations are lower against France and Ireland (though France have a poor record at Twickenham).

I can understand him being dropped for his kicking, it's been well short of the standard required. His general play has been good though and his defence, excellent.

If he is indeed dropped, I would say this is arguably a positive move for SB. It shows that nobody is untouchable in the side.....if you don't perform, you're out.

Personally.....unless Smith has 2 really strong games, I think SB is wanting Ford as his 10 option, he's just waiting for him to be fully fit and firing.

Telegraph again this morning

Steve Borthwick is on Thursday expected to take the seismic decision to drop England captain Owen Farrell from the side to face France at Twickenham on Saturday, the first time he has been omitted from a major Test match on form since 2015.

Marcus Smith is to be promoted to the fly-half position in place of Farrell, who must be content with a place on the bench against last season’s Grand Slam champions.

Ellis Genge, who captained Leicester under Borthwick to the Premiership title last season, is expected to be appointed captain after Courtney Lawes was ruled out of the remainder of the championship with a shoulder injury.

Genge, an aggressive ball carrier with an unrelenting work rate, will bring a new dimension to the leadership role, similar to the menace that was previously provided in spades by Martin Johnson and Lewis Moody before him.

The decision comes just five weeks after Borthwick appointed Farrell as his captain for the Guinness Six Nations campaign and represents a bigger selection decision than any taken during the seven years of his predecessor Eddie Jones.

The last time Farrell was not selected for a frontline Test match – when fit – was England’s scratchy victory over Fiji in the opening match of the 2015 World Cup at Twickenham.

For further context, the only international games he has not started since then when fit are matches against Japan in November 2018, a World Cup warm-up against Wales the following year and the pool-stage match against tier-two side the United States in Japan. He was also named on the bench for two Tests for the British and Irish Lions in the series against South Africa in 2021.

Borthwick refuses to shy away from big decisions

Borthwick made clear when he took the position that selection would be based on form and what is now certain is that no one’s position, not even the captain’s, is guaranteed.

If it might not be as dramatic as Warren Gatland’s decision to drop Brian O’Driscoll for the Lions’ third Test victory over Australia in 2013, it demonstrates that the head coach is not prepared to shy away from controversial decisions.

Smith, despite playing for just 14 seconds in the victory over Wales and a bit-part cameo in the win over Italy, he will now be handed the responsibility to spearhead a high-tempo attack as England look to meet fire with fire in Le Crunch against a side who have developed into one of the most dangerous counter-attackers in the world.

The decision to back the mercurial talent of Smith also challenges the perception that Borthwick would restrict his attacking ambitions to a dour, forward-based kicking game and will add further spice to the fixture, England’s last competitive game at Twickenham before the World Cup in France.


Borthwick ready to go toe-to-toe with French pace

England clearly believe that pace will be the key to challenging a French side who have struggled at times to cope with the high-tempo game employed by Scotland in their thrilling third-round defeat. Quick ruck speed and varying the point of attack was also central to Ireland’s victory over France in Dublin.

Yet what is also clear is that the basic requirements of goal-kicking will have come into the equation. Farrell, by his own admission, has been “over-thinking” his goalkicking, and his success rate of just 47 per cent in the previous three rounds is simply not of Test standard. Last year, his success rate was 83 per cent.

Against Wales, he missed four out of six attempts at goal and, given the rebuilding job that Borthwick is attempting, one absolute fundamental task of the fly-half is to keep the scoreboard ticking over to reward spells of pressure.

Smith landed five out of six kicks at goal for Harlequins on Saturday and now faces the biggest game of his career. His attacking flair was key to England’s victory over world champions South Africa in November 2021, a result that went a long way to extending Jones’s tenure but the white heat of a Six Nations contest will put his game management under even greater scrutiny.

A word here too for Farrell. Despite the disappointment of knowing the decision when he appeared at a press conference on Tuesday, the Saracens player showed true leadership qualities by heaping praise on Smith’s performance against Quins and speaking of the benefit it could bring to the England side.

‘Farrell will always be captain material and always play his role’

Borthwick has made it a priority to tighten the bonds within the squad, and the composure and maturity shown by Farrell, arguably the most competitive figure in the squad, was clear evidence of this.

There is little doubt that the 31-year-old will still play a key role from the bench and may yet return to the starting XV for the final round against Ireland.

“Faz will always be captain material and always play his role as he does, whether he is captain or not,” Kevin Sinfield, the England defence coach, said. “Whether Owen is in the side or not, he’ll continue to be a great leader for us.

For now though, the stage is Smith’s.

The decision to back the mercurial talent of Smith also challenges the perception that Borthwick would restrict his attacking ambitions to a dour, forward-based kicking game and will add further spice to the fixture, England’s last competitive game at Twickenham before the World Cup in France.

What lazy journalism......

Well. There we go. It's being reported that that the only change bar the bench. Would still prefer Borthwick to reconsider Malins.

Apparently Chessum struggling with an injury and Hill is with the squad.

Geordie wrote:I see Itoje has released in an interview that he has been ill for the last year and only recently had a diagnosis.  This has caused a reduction in his energy and affected his conditioning etc.

He's got it all under control...though no disclosure of what it is.

Regress of rugby I hope he's well...but certainly explains his slightly subdued performances by his standards...

This could well explain Itojes loss of form over last year. He has been definitely below par from his usual high standard. He has been better this 6N, certainly Italy and Wales games.

As for Smith/Farrell, well I was thinking it would be Farrell to start with hopefully Smith getting a decent spell off bench. Wonder how long Borthwick waits until change this way around.

Geordie wrote:Apparently Chessum struggling with an injury and Hill is with the squad.

Interesting that they've called another lock up. With Itoje, Chessum, Isiekwe and Ribbans there was already plenty of cover in the squad. Maybe suggests a 6-2 is being looked at as Sam suggested earlier in the week. Equally it could just be staying safe given there will be some tired bodies by this point of the tournament.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Personally.....unless Smith has 2 really strong games, I think SB is wanting Ford as his 10 option, he's just waiting for him to be fully fit and firing.

Ford coming straight into the training squad to see systems, 2 starts at 10 for Farrell and 2 starts for Smith would suggest all three are in contention. I'd say that's fair given their quality but differing strengths.

Whether all three fit into a RWC squad without one player not getting used much is a different question. That said the group stages being more spread out and the squad size going up to 33-man instead of 31 means that there should be far more flexibility in the squads this time than previous tournaments.

I'm excited to see how Smith goes despite sharing your feeling that more of his inconsistent international output thus far is on Smith than those around him. He should slot into the structure from R2 and R3 well.

Overall it feels like the team have moved in a positive direction over a short period.

Hill being included doesn't fill me with joy. Needless penalties ahoy.

Is Hill actually there then? No mention from the RFU as yet.

Just what Geordie mentions above. Apparently Chessum has a knock so Hill called in.
A double blow if that's the case as Chessum been excellent and I don't rate Hill at all.

mountain man wrote:Just what Geordie mentions above. Apparently Chessum has a knock so Hill called in.
A double blow if that's the case as Chessum been excellent and I don't rate Hill at all.

If Hill has been brought in, you would like to think Ribbans would get selected before him as he's spent more time with the squad.

Not officially announced...probably just in as a precaution..

He wouldnt make the match day squad i wouldnt have thought...

mountain man wrote:Hill being included doesn't fill me with joy. Needless penalties ahoy.

Probably just a body in training. Ribbans has a back issue !long term thing) so probably has to be managed so if Chessum has a knock then the extra body helps.

We conceded only 6 pens all game Vs Wales. Much improved discipline so far this 6N, probably why Hill has been dropped and why he's unlikely to play.

France side

Baille, Marchand, Aldegheri, Flament, Willemse, Cros, Ollivon, Alldritt
Dupont, Ntamack, Dumortier, Danty, Fickou, Penaud, Ramos

Bench - Mauvaka, Wardi, Falatea, Toafifenua, Macalou, Lucu, Moefana, Jaminet

France:

Baille Marchand Aldegheri
Flament Willemse
Ollivon Cros
Alldritt
Dupont Ntamack
Dumortier Danty Fickou Penaud
Ramos

Mauvaka Wardi FAlatea Taofifenua Macalou Lucu Moefana Jaminet

Damn you Bam.

Even though France are missing 3 first choice starters in their pack I cannot see England getting the upper hand. In fact with the selection of Aldegheri at tighthead I expect France to really attack England in the scrum as South Africa have done, due to the weakness of our props.

Genge will be ready for Aldegheri...dont worry.

We’ll get to see how Smith copes with a power runner coming down his channel with Danty at 12 .. scary thought!

Nah...Danty will be too busy trying to deal with Ollie Lawrence to bother Smithy...

Interesting they've gone with Aldegheri. A strong scrummaging prop but one who wasn't in the original squad. With Antonio, Haouas and Bamba all unavailable they are very depleted at TH though. Falatea is a beast in the loose but hasn't actually started that many professional games so is clearly viewed as an impact sub by club and country.

Moefana is a fine young player but Danty's carrying in traffic adds something extra to France's attack likely balances their backline a bit better.

As we knew would be the case it's a terrific French 23 despite some notable absentees.

Looks like Smith is th eonly change to the starting line up. Good to have continuity.

England: Steward; Malins, Slade, Lawrence, Watson; M Smith, Van Poortvliet; Genge (capt), George, Sinckler; Itoje, Chessum; Ludlam, Willis, Dombrandt.

Replacements: Walker, M Vunipola, Cole, Ribbans, B Curry, Mitchell, Farrell, Arundell.

I like Borthwick's decision making here. You don't perform you're out. Sends Smith back to Quins with a remit of show you deserve a spot and rewards him when he delivers. Meritocracy coming through which should increase competition for places.

Happy with that. I am more excited for this game now!

Nice to see Ribeye on the bench (at last!).

Cumbrian wrote:Looks like Smith is th eonly change to the starting line up.  Good to have continuity.

It’s a lineup that’s starting to work, especially up front - the question now is whether Smith can get more out of the backline than Farrell did. I certainly hope so

Going back to Smith having 20 games to date, how many of them were with Youngs at 9; no fly half of his type is able to show what he can do with slow ponderous inaccurate passing to him. Add to that a pack that were usually outmuscled and out thought and you have the worst scenario possible for a free running 10.

I am a bit disappointed that JvP is starting, Mitchell is the nearest thing we have to Care keeping the game at a high tempo to allow Smith to see the space before it is closed down. Mitchell/Smith, JvP/Farrell are the combos that I think would work best, like for like players.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Going back to Smith having 20 games to date, how many of them were with Youngs at 9; no fly half of his type is able to show what he can do with slow ponderous inaccurate passing to him. Add to that a pack that were usually outmuscled and out thought and you have the worst scenario possible for a free running 10.

I am a bit disappointed that JvP is starting, Mitchell is the nearest thing we have to Care keeping the game at a high tempo to allow Smith to see the space before it is closed down. Mitchell/Smith, JvP/Farrell are the combos that I think would work best, like for like players.

Care and Smith did not combine well for England in the summer. The game Vs the Baabaas was shambolic at best (Atkinson at 12 doing his best Andre impersonation and Marchant at 13). The idea that the backline should be built in the Quins image is an odd one. We are going to borrow elements of their attack via Evans we aren't going to play like Quins entirely.

The level is excuses for Smith have been pretty extensive so far. He really needs to take his Prem form to international level this weekend. Statement performance no more, wrong game plan, needs his own 9/8/13, the advertising hoardings weren't to his taste etc ...

JVP has been very good for us at 9, ridiculous levels of game management considering he's only 21. He does need to be replaced by Mitchell a lot sooner though, 55/60mins and then we should be upping the tempo via Mitchell.

I don't see a need for Owen Farrell to enter the game unless Smith is playing badly or there is an injury so I'm not particularly interested in which halfback pairing combines best though I would note Care/Farrell used to work well at stages previously. JVP can take on a lot of the game management (Care often does for Smith) and let Smith concentrate on doing his thing, identifying space and looking for mismatches. A little bit of patience from Marcus and it could come together nicely for him this weekend.

From reading the beeb article I wouldn't be surprised if Farrell comes on early in the 2nd half. Genge obviously won't go the full 80 so when he comes off there will be some motivation to bring Farrell on to lead.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Going back to Smith having 20 games to date, how many of them were with Youngs at 9; no fly half of his type is able to show what he can do with slow ponderous inaccurate passing to him. Add to that a pack that were usually outmuscled and out thought and you have the worst scenario possible for a free running 10.

I am a bit disappointed that JvP is starting, Mitchell is the nearest thing we have to Care keeping the game at a high tempo to allow Smith to see the space before it is closed down. Mitchell/Smith, JvP/Farrell are the combos that I think would work best, like for like players.

Care and Smith did not combine well for England in the summer. The game Vs the Baabaas was shambolic at best (Atkinson at 12 doing his best Andre impersonation and Marchant at 13). The idea that the backline should be built in the Quins image is an odd one. We are going to borrow elements of their attack via Evans we aren't going to play like Quins entirely.

The level is excuses for Smith have been pretty extensive so far. He really needs to take his Prem form to international level this weekend. Statement performance no more, wrong game plan, needs his own 9/8/13, the advertising hoardings weren't to his taste etc ...

JVP has been very good for us at 9, ridiculous levels of game management considering he's only 21. He does need to be replaced by Mitchell a lot sooner though, 55/60mins and then we should be upping the tempo via Mitchell.

I don't see a need for Owen Farrell to enter the game unless Smith is playing badly or there is an injury so I'm not particularly interested in which halfback pairing combines best though I would note Care/Farrell used to work well at stages previously. JVP can take on a lot of the game management (Care often does for Smith) and let Smith concentrate on doing his thing, identifying space and looking for mismatches. A little bit of patience from Marcus and it could come together nicely for him this weekend.

For all the excuses of Smith, having to play with Slade at 12 et al, there's also some pretty extensive white washing going over Fords last performances for England and Farrells. There is some harking back to when they were playing really well, feels a bit off. Borthwick does need to get better use of his bench, it does feel he's doing alot based off stats and numbers.

I'm hoping one of the byproducts of Genge being made captain is that he stays on the field longer. He's been one of our best players and doesn't seem to be tiring much when he's made way on 55 mins the last few games.

You'd hope that with the couple (three of Sinckler doesn't come off at the same time or earlier than Ellis) of Lions we have in the tight five then the other two Lions we have in the backs plus the two club captains in the backrow (and another on the bench) we'd have the experience and leadership required.

Also if everything is working well, who would you sacrifice for Farrell? Smith the playmaker who is hopefully finally getting the attack going, Lawrence the gain line maker or Slade the defensive leader.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'm hoping one of the byproducts of Genge being made captain is that he stays on the field longer. He's been one of our best players and doesn't seem to be tiring much when he's made way on 55 mins the last few games.

You'd hope that with the couple (three of Sinckler doesn't come off at the same time or earlier than Ellis) of Lions we have in the tight five then the other two Lions we have in the backs plus the two club captains in the backrow (and another on the bench) we'd have the experience and leadership required.

Also if everything is working well, who would you sacrifice for Farrell? Smith the playmaker who is hopefully finally getting the attack going, Lawrence the gain line maker or Slade the defensive leader.

Ideally none of them. Suspect it would either be Smith (who may even be told he's got 60 minutes so empty the tank) or Slade with Lawrence moving over and Farrell in at 12.

Do we know if Mitchell has been training with Farrell much?

lostinwales wrote:From reading the beeb article I wouldn't be surprised if Farrell comes on early in the 2nd half. Genge obviously won't go the full 80 so when he comes off there will be some motivation to bring Farrell on to lead.

Not if we're playing well.

Surely the leadership experience of Itoje, Slade, George, Ludlum will be enough?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Going back to Smith having 20 games to date, how many of them were with Youngs at 9; no fly half of his type is able to show what he can do with slow ponderous inaccurate passing to him. Add to that a pack that were usually outmuscled and out thought and you have the worst scenario possible for a free running 10.

I am a bit disappointed that JvP is starting, Mitchell is the nearest thing we have to Care keeping the game at a high tempo to allow Smith to see the space before it is closed down. Mitchell/Smith, JvP/Farrell are the combos that I think would work best, like for like players.

Care and Smith did not combine well for England in the summer. The game Vs the Baabaas was shambolic at best (Atkinson at 12 doing his best Andre impersonation and Marchant at 13). The idea that the backline should be built in the Quins image is an odd one. We are going to borrow elements of their attack via Evans we aren't going to play like Quins entirely.

The level is excuses for Smith have been pretty extensive so far. He really needs to take his Prem form to international level this weekend. Statement performance no more, wrong game plan, needs his own 9/8/13, the advertising hoardings weren't to his taste etc ...

JVP has been very good for us at 9, ridiculous levels of game management considering he's only 21. He does need to be replaced by Mitchell a lot sooner though, 55/60mins and then we should be upping the tempo via Mitchell.

I don't see a need for Owen Farrell to enter the game unless Smith is playing badly or there is an injury so I'm not particularly interested in which halfback pairing combines best though I would note Care/Farrell used to work well at stages previously. JVP can take on a lot of the game management (Care often does for Smith) and let Smith concentrate on doing his thing, identifying space and looking for mismatches. A little bit of patience from Marcus and it could come together nicely for him this weekend.

For all the excuses of Smith, having to play with Slade at 12 et al, there's also some pretty extensive white washing going over Fords last performances for England and Farrells. There is some harking back to when they were playing really well, feels a bit off. Borthwick does need to get better use of his bench, it does feel he's doing alot based off stats and numbers.

Not sure there's much whitewashing of Ford's last performances he was bemoaned on here and in the media for not getting the attack going. He was playing whilst injured, with Youngs at 9 and a midfield of Farrell and Slade. He'd have loved to have been fit with an actual running threat in the midfield.

Farrell is getting hammered for his last few performances so not sure what you mean there.

Borthwick does try and create an 80 minute team. Does tend towards odd timing of substitutions. At Tigers he went through a spell where he'd replace the whole front row just after half time or start with a weaker team and stack the bench with some of his best players making a raft of subs on fifty mins. So far his bench usage has been a bit mixed, some subs to early and some to late. I guess he's still getting to know some of the players and their limitations.

Ha. So excuses re fitness and not a great midfield balance while having Youngs!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. So excuses re fitness and not a great midfield balance while having Youngs!

The same 9 that has made it impossible for Smith apparently and a worse midfield than Smith has ever had plus he was running on one leg and somehow those performances are an excuse for Smith not playing so well.

Ford shouldn't have been playing in those games but we know Eddie was somewhat wedded to certain team combinations.