England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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Continued.......

Poorfour wrote:Just watched the highlights package and it confirmed something else I suspected in the stadium - Mr Doleman's refereeing was somewhat asymmetric to say the least.

He penalised England a lot early on for not rolling away (including a rather theatrical dive over a player trying to exit by the scrum half), but Italy were on the wrong side in virtually every clip. And the second Italian try had a far more blatant and deliberate obstruction - from two players - than the England one that was chalked off.

Agreed - I said at the time the officials were poor. Ref inconsistent, TMO asleep most of the time, whole lot of them went blind in the 2nd half and/or unable to distinguish between forwards and backwards ...

Asymmetric. I like this.
Does this mean I can refer to some of my wife's decisions as asymmetric?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
It's a better performance than week 1 so he's likely to keep the shirt again for the next game. His fitness is an issue, we need him to last 80 mins and just manage one or two of those big trademark busts and he'll have gone a good way to securing that 8 shirt.

I don't know if his fitness is an issue - if he made the second highest metres in 66 minutes (according to the BBC) in addition to all the work he was doing off the ball (I don't have the stats, but he was involved in a lot of breakdowns) it may be that he was asked to empty the tank in the expectation of being subbed.

His fitness was an issue when he first broke into the Quins side, but now he's an 80 minute player who is regularly near the top of our tackle, carrying and breakdown stats. It may be that he needs to raise it a further notch for international rugby, but it looks more to me like he's been told to go flat out for as long as he can.

Or to put it another way: would Billy get through as much work in 80 minutes as Dombrandt is in 66?

It might well have been he's being told to empty the tank but I do wonder how long we can keep asking Chessum and Itoje to play a full 80 mins as they aren't exactly just ruck inspecting and playing guard in attack and defence.

The alternatives don't have his size to take into contact even if they are more mobile. If we can keep him on and the level maintained it would certainly help.

I don't think we're going back to Billy, we're safe from that at least. It's the lads coming back from France in the summer that will be the threat to his place.

He's an interesting one Dombrandt as he's coming up to the 10 cap mark and hasn't really produced anything close to his Quins form. He must be walking on a bit of a thin line but where exactly would we go? It's not something I've been keen on in the past, but could we see a case of getting our 3 best backrowers on the park rather than sticking with a number 8 who's not producing?

6. Ludlam/Hill
7. Willis/Underhill
8. Curry/Earl

Or any combination of the above? Curry is a good carrying option in the tight....he could go at the base when in a more defensive position....perhaps use Ludlam or Earl in attacking scenarios?

How close is Alfie Barbeary to a return? A report last year said late January, early February.

I think Dombrandt is producing, but like H-Cs I suppose it's what we're all looking for. Personally I wouldn't like to go back to a flanker at 8, still shudder thinking about that 5m vs France and Curry making a dogs dinner of it. If people aren't keen on Dombrandt we already have an actual number 8 in the wider squad in Simmonds.

Not that I ever trust the citing process as it seems almost completely reliant on what the commentators and media pick out but it should be today at the latest I think for anything to come of the hands to Farrell's face. Still can't believe the TMO waved it on on Sunday.

Rugby Fan wrote:How close is Alfie Barbeary to a return? A report last year said late January, early February.

No idea but I'd be surprised if he went from outside the squad to in. He's uncapped and not played in months. This weekend's team lists will make interesting reading.

I think Dombrandt will the go to during the 6N. We need more from him but he's slowly getting towards where we need him to be.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not that I ever trust the citing process as it seems almost completely reliant on what the commentators and media pick out but it should be today at the latest I think for anything to come of the hands to Farrell's face. Still can't believe the TMO waved it on on Sunday.

Farrell also got his hands in the opponents face from the clips. I don't remember either of them making a fuss tho

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not that I ever trust the citing process as it seems almost completely reliant on what the commentators and media pick out but it should be today at the latest I think for anything to come of the hands to Farrell's face. Still can't believe the TMO waved it on on Sunday.

Farrell also got his hands in the opponents face from the clips.  I don't remember either of them making a fuss tho

Farrell tends not to, not sure if it was around the time everyone was telling him to be less vocal as captain. I think he should have pointed it out the ref to put more pressure on him at the time.

Not a huge amount of options at 8...

In no particular order
Dombrandt
Tom Willis
Callum Chick
Zac Mercer
Barbeary
Simmonds
Young London Irish lad double barreled name....Chandler something...

Dombrandt was much better against Italy and whilst not perfect he should be 8 for Wales game. Willis definitely deserves another start at 6. Ludlam 7 so same as for me with Earl bench. Prior to start I wanted to see Earl in starting XV but hard to justify dropping last weeks back row.

The majority of the team need the 6n....they are entitled to build some familiarity at the least...

Whats englands fixture list between the 6n and World Cup?

EDIT
So not much time at all for any kind of squad familiarisation...

Wales v England: Principality Stadium, Cardiff. Saturday 5th August 2023. Kick-off: TBC

England v Wales: Twickenham Stadium, London. Saturday 12th August 2023. Kick-off: TBC

England v Fiji: Twickenham Stadium, London. Saturday 26th August 2023. Kick-off: TBC

Then World Cup September

So Talk Lawes and T.Curry will be available for Wales.

Hopefully not in place of Willis!

Well it's a nice conundrum for Borthwick to have. Obviously I'm a huge fan of Willis, you saw at the weekend the impact he had. The only thing I was reasonably surprised at was that he wasn't used in the lineout at all and that he was subbed so early. Borthwick is supposed to be big on stats etc and his subs do appear pre planned to me, ignoring some of the performances on the pitch. That was definitely pointed out for Jones early on, perhaps Steve's influence then and now?

Big question on form then, do you drop Ludlam who has played ok, Willis who is back to France but was so good, Dombrandt and switch a flanker to 8? Or does he back some continuity and merely bring Lawes and Curry onto the bench?

Willis put in so much work, 20 tackles etc that after 50 mins he looked shattered so assume that was reason for sub. Rather like Itoje over last year or so I thought T Curry had lost form so I wouldn't bring him in for Wales, certainly not to start. Lawes maybe for bench instead of Isiekwe.

Curry is in the bracket with Itoje, so good that when he merely performs to the standards of the others it's more noticeable.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it's a nice conundrum for Borthwick to have. Obviously I'm a huge fan of Willis, you saw at the weekend the impact he had. The only thing I was reasonably surprised at was that he wasn't used in the lineout at all and that he was subbed so early. Borthwick is supposed to be big on stats etc and his subs do appear pre planned to me, ignoring some of the performances on the pitch. That was definitely pointed out for Jones early on, perhaps Steve's influence then and now?

Big question on form then, do you drop Ludlam who has played ok, Willis who is back to France but was so good, Dombrandt and switch a flanker to 8? Or does he back some continuity and merely bring Lawes and Curry onto the bench?

Id keep Willis on...tell him to empty the tank again for 50 mins, then bring Lawes or Curry on...and either switch Ludlum to 7 (for Lawes to go 6) or bring Curry on to actually play 7 and really go at Wales breakdown.

You'd have to imagine it will be a similar starting side with possibly only OHC dropping out. Lawes onto the bench could be an option...would be tough to drop Earl as he's looked good.

Charlie Morgan has dropped a point that I've not seen reported as such on Willis and Curry but being widely acknowledged. Jones didn't pick them together as he felt that it substantially weakened the lineout. Little odd to me as the lineout and maul hasn't been an area of strength anyway for a while (acknowledged publicly by Borthwick and then Jones), and the fact we looked so good with 2 flankers throughout Jones' time.

What did OHC do wrong?

Hes had litterally zero ball.

It was the same as Lawrence zero ball then dropped...but look what he can do when he actually gets the ball ....

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it's a nice conundrum for Borthwick to have. Obviously I'm a huge fan of Willis, you saw at the weekend the impact he had. The only thing I was reasonably surprised at was that he wasn't used in the lineout at all and that he was subbed so early. Borthwick is supposed to be big on stats etc and his subs do appear pre planned to me, ignoring some of the performances on the pitch. That was definitely pointed out for Jones early on, perhaps Steve's influence then and now?

Big question on form then, do you drop Ludlam who has played ok, Willis who is back to France but was so good, Dombrandt and switch a flanker to 8? Or does he back some continuity and merely bring Lawes and Curry onto the bench?

Id keep Willis on...tell him to empty the tank again for 50 mins, then bring Lawes or Curry on...and either switch Ludlum to 7 (for Lawes to go 6) or bring Curry on to actually play 7 and really go at Wales breakdown.

Or just keep Willis on for the entire game. We looked so different without him on the pitch. I really want Lawes considered as a lock.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it's a nice conundrum for Borthwick to have. Obviously I'm a huge fan of Willis, you saw at the weekend the impact he had. The only thing I was reasonably surprised at was that he wasn't used in the lineout at all and that he was subbed so early. Borthwick is supposed to be big on stats etc and his subs do appear pre planned to me, ignoring some of the performances on the pitch. That was definitely pointed out for Jones early on, perhaps Steve's influence then and now?

Big question on form then, do you drop Ludlam who has played ok, Willis who is back to France but was so good, Dombrandt and switch a flanker to 8? Or does he back some continuity and merely bring Lawes and Curry onto the bench?

Id keep Willis on...tell him to empty the tank again for 50 mins, then bring Lawes or Curry on...and either switch Ludlum to 7 (for Lawes to go 6) or bring Curry on to actually play 7 and really go at Wales breakdown.

Or just keep Willis on for the entire game. We looked so different without him on the pitch. I really want Lawes considered as a lock.

It depends on his fitness 7.5
If hes fit enough to do it...then yes im all for that. But he might need to acclimatize to the fitness levels of the next step up.

Geordie wrote:What did OHC do wrong?

Hes had litterally zero ball.

It was the same as Lawrence zero ball then dropped...but look what he can do when he actually gets the ball ....

When does it stop being "what did he do wrong" and "what did he actually do?". 2 games in and he's added practically nothing.....this can't really go on.

Or just keep Willis on for the entire game.

No, given pace he played on Sunday and work he did I doubt he'd last. He looked done when he was subbed.
I'd keep same team bar OHC and put Arundell on. I suspect Borthwick though will keep same starting XV.
Lawes bench assuming he's ready.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it's a nice conundrum for Borthwick to have. Obviously I'm a huge fan of Willis, you saw at the weekend the impact he had. The only thing I was reasonably surprised at was that he wasn't used in the lineout at all and that he was subbed so early. Borthwick is supposed to be big on stats etc and his subs do appear pre planned to me, ignoring some of the performances on the pitch. That was definitely pointed out for Jones early on, perhaps Steve's influence then and now?

Big question on form then, do you drop Ludlam who has played ok, Willis who is back to France but was so good, Dombrandt and switch a flanker to 8? Or does he back some continuity and merely bring Lawes and Curry onto the bench?

Id keep Willis on...tell him to empty the tank again for 50 mins, then bring Lawes or Curry on...and either switch Ludlum to 7 (for Lawes to go 6) or bring Curry on to actually play 7 and really go at Wales breakdown.

Or just keep Willis on for the entire game. We looked so different without him on the pitch. I really want Lawes considered as a lock.

It depends on his fitness 7.5
If hes fit enough to do it...then yes im all for that. But he might need to acclimatize to the fitness levels of the next step up.

Similar to the Dombrandt assumptions on fitness. I didn't see any notable dips in their performances. A tired Willis is still better than Isiekwe as a flanker.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:What did OHC do wrong?

Hes had litterally zero ball.

It was the same as Lawrence zero ball then dropped...but look what he can do when he actually gets the ball ....

When does it stop being "what did he do wrong" and "what did he actually do?". 2 games in and he's added practically nothing.....this can't really go on.

What are you expecting him to do though sarge?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it's a nice conundrum for Borthwick to have. Obviously I'm a huge fan of Willis, you saw at the weekend the impact he had. The only thing I was reasonably surprised at was that he wasn't used in the lineout at all and that he was subbed so early. Borthwick is supposed to be big on stats etc and his subs do appear pre planned to me, ignoring some of the performances on the pitch. That was definitely pointed out for Jones early on, perhaps Steve's influence then and now?

Big question on form then, do you drop Ludlam who has played ok, Willis who is back to France but was so good, Dombrandt and switch a flanker to 8? Or does he back some continuity and merely bring Lawes and Curry onto the bench?

Id keep Willis on...tell him to empty the tank again for 50 mins, then bring Lawes or Curry on...and either switch Ludlum to 7 (for Lawes to go 6) or bring Curry on to actually play 7 and really go at Wales breakdown.

Or just keep Willis on for the entire game. We looked so different without him on the pitch. I really want Lawes considered as a lock.

It depends on his fitness 7.5
If hes fit enough to do it...then yes im all for that. But he might need to acclimatize to the fitness levels of the next step up.

Similar to the Dombrandt assumptions on fitness. I didn't see any notable dips in their performances. A tired Willis is still better than Isiekwe as a flanker.

But not Curry or lawes coming off the bench.

Keeps the standard incredibly high..

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:What did OHC do wrong?

Hes had litterally zero ball.

It was the same as Lawrence zero ball then dropped...but look what he can do when he actually gets the ball ....

When does it stop being "what did he do wrong" and "what did he actually do?". 2 games in and he's added practically nothing.....this can't really go on.

But hes operated in over crowded areas...hes defended very well. Hes even roamed looking for the ball when he can.

Malins on the other hand has been operating in orchards of space. Difficult to compare.

Well Curry (Tom that is) I'm looking forward to seeing back. Lawes, ain't an international flanker for me, would prefer to see Ludlam, Earl continue with Curry and Willis for those spots.

Lawes though covers 2nd row and is better than Isiekwe in both positions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Curry (Tom that is) I'm looking forward to seeing back. Lawes, ain't an international flanker for me, would prefer to see Ludlam, Earl continue with Curry and Willis for those spots.

Well its no secret who i would prefer at 6...but agree Ludlum has done very well and Willis, Earl and T Curry gives us some very strong options indeed.

Geordie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:What did OHC do wrong?

Hes had litterally zero ball.

It was the same as Lawrence zero ball then dropped...but look what he can do when he actually gets the ball ....

When does it stop being "what did he do wrong" and "what did he actually do?". 2 games in and he's added practically nothing.....this can't really go on.

But hes operated in over crowded areas...hes defended very well. Hes even roamed looking for the ball when he can.

Malins on the other hand has been operating in orchards of space. Difficult to compare.

I don't disagree that much.....but he's done pretty much nothing. The few times he managed to get ball in hand, he's not produced anything. Harsh on the lad but true really. Why isn't he getting into the game?

I agree mm, and I agree Geordie. If we're after a bit 6 then try Hill for me.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:What did OHC do wrong?

Hes had litterally zero ball.

It was the same as Lawrence zero ball then dropped...but look what he can do when he actually gets the ball ....

When does it stop being "what did he do wrong" and "what did he actually do?". 2 games in and he's added practically nothing.....this can't really go on.

But hes operated in over crowded areas...hes defended very well. Hes even roamed looking for the ball when he can.

Malins on the other hand has been operating in orchards of space. Difficult to compare.

I don't disagree that much.....but he's done pretty much nothing. The few times he managed to get ball in hand, he's not produced anything. Harsh on the lad but true really. Why isn't he getting into the game?

Do you think Malins should be kept in?

No 7&1/2 wrote: Lawes, ain't an international flanker for me,

What....I mean.....what? Lawes in an outstanding flanker, right up there with the worlds best. To suggest he's not even an International standard is utterly absurd.

I've seen some interesting takes on here over the years, that is right up there!

Geordie wrote:

Do you think Malins should be kept in?

I don't like Malins as winger but at least he's producing, OHC has done nothing of note....absolutely nothing.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: Lawes, ain't an international flanker for me,

What....I mean.....what? Lawes in an outstanding flanker, right up there with the worlds best. To suggest he's not even an International standard is utterly absurd.

I've seen some interesting takes on here over the years, that is right up there!

When we play him the balance of the back row disappears for me. We inevitably give away so many penalties. He also pops up too much much in midfield for carrying duty (albeit that will be under instruction) whereas one of the plus points on a big 6 would be sharing the duty of carrying in the tight. Still not the most interesting take for me, once saw someone say they didn't rate Jack Willis!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Do you think Malins should be kept in?

I don't like Malins as winger but at least he's producing, OHC has done nothing of note....absolutely nothing.

What do you want H-Cs to do though? Get a run in? Get a nice kick floated to him on the wing? Give a few penalities and tries away each game?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: Lawes, ain't an international flanker for me,

What....I mean.....what? Lawes in an outstanding flanker, right up there with the worlds best. To suggest he's not even an International standard is utterly absurd.

I've seen some interesting takes on here over the years, that is right up there!

When we play him the balance of the back row disappears for me. We inevitably give away so many penalties. He also pops up too much much in midfield for carrying duty (albeit that will be under instruction) whereas one of the plus points on a big 6 would be sharing the duty of carrying in the tight. Still not the most interesting take for me, once saw someone say they didn't rate Jack Willis!

Yea, suggesting Jack Willis and his 7 caps at 26 might not be quite International class (2 good games) v Suggesting multiple Lion....England captain....almost 100 caps.....is not an international level flanker!

You win 606 today 7.5........I'll get an award made up for you. I'll just leave this here.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJSyqeR5PPA

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Do you think Malins should be kept in?

I don't like Malins as winger but at least he's producing, OHC has done nothing of note....absolutely nothing.

What do you want H-Cs to do though? Get a run in? Get a nice kick floated to him on the wing? Give a few penalities and tries away each game?

Try and touch the ball would be a start...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: Lawes, ain't an international flanker for me,

What....I mean.....what? Lawes in an outstanding flanker, right up there with the worlds best. To suggest he's not even an International standard is utterly absurd.

I've seen some interesting takes on here over the years, that is right up there!

When we play him the balance of the back row disappears for me. We inevitably give away so many penalties. He also pops up too much much in midfield for carrying duty (albeit that will be under instruction) whereas one of the plus points on a big 6 would be sharing the duty of carrying in the tight. Still not the most interesting take for me, once saw someone say they didn't rate Jack Willis!

Yea, suggesting Jack Willis and his 7 caps at 26 might not be quite International class (2 good games) v Suggesting multiple Lion....England captain....almost 100 caps.....is not an international level flanker!

You win 606 today 7.5........I'll get an award made up for you. I'll just leave this here.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJSyqeR5PPA

It's not worked for the team. For me the combos of Curry and Underhill and Robshaw and Haskell (and I never thought I'd say that at the time), work miles better.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Do you think Malins should be kept in?

I don't like Malins as winger but at least he's producing, OHC has done nothing of note....absolutely nothing.

What he producing? Hes scored a few tries that i could have scored to be fair...and OHC could have scored. What has he done that has exclled over OHC....and im not a huge OHC fan..id have prefered Murley on but just think OHC is getting alot of unfair stick.

Now now ladies.
I 've always thought Lawes better in 2nd row than backrow but he is good at both.
I agree I don't think OHC has done much, maybe not getting enough chances but what he has had I can't say he's impressed.

However, all opinions within reason are valid. Guess it just depends how you see things. If we all agreed on everything this forum be pretty empty.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Do you think Malins should be kept in?

I don't like Malins as winger but at least he's producing, OHC has done nothing of note....absolutely nothing.

What do you want H-Cs to do though? Get a run in? Get a nice kick floated to him on the wing? Give a few penalities and tries away each game?

Try and touch the ball would be a start...

Well I agree that wingers are more noticeable when they get the ball, for good or bad. So far I'm seeing a newby making roughly the correct decisions and not get many chances to show what he can do as a finisher. The guy on the other wing has got a couple of nice chances and taken them, but made a few errors each game so far this 6Ns.

Lawes is an outstanding International flanker......one of the best about.

I think I'll have to log off now, you've sent me over the edge, I need a lie down.

Well Borthwick must be saying to OHC.......

"get yourself out there lad....don't worry about touching the ball, just try and pretend you're invisible for 80mins. In fact, don't even go looking for work, just stand out there on the wing with your pretty painted nails, brushing your hair out of your eyes".

Malins...

Looked good in his 1st couple of internationals but they were against weaker teams. Looked 'powder puff' against stronger teams that came after and got dropped.

So far this 6N he did take his tries well vs Scotland but defence wasn't all that. Vs Italy less opportunities to do his stuff but generally neither good nor bad. My expectation is vs Ireland or France is that he could end up being a liability. It is only an opinion and it can be difficult for wingers because, depending on the game, they may hardly see the ball and when they do finally get it they are very visible.

I guess when we judge players we are always comparing them against the best features of their predecessors. May turned into a good defender, not the strongest but possibly the fastest, and that meant getting into the right positions and recovering causes that seemed lost. Malins just looks weak and he's not a small guy.

I think it's unfair on Ludlam to be moved aside straight away for Lawes. He's been given a chance to show what he can do and has not disappointed. For me he's been the best back rower over the past two games and his constant tackling and carrying (plus the distribution for the Malins try) has been a delight. He's more of a normal flanker size, being about 6ft 3, but to drop him would be a mistake I think.

He has taken his chance, as has Willis. Ben Curry was simply not physical enough (plus he missed tackles), and Earl, although playing really well in the Premiership, and putting in some excellent tackling in the time he's been on the pitch, hasn't quite replicated that form in an England shirt. For now, as they're only just coming back to fitness, I would be inclined to replace Earl and Isiekwe on the bench with Tom Curry and Lawes for now. IF they're up to International fitness that is.

I think Isiekwe has been underwhelming and Lawes would be a far superior alternative