England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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Well Youngs was terrible ill give you that.

England have underperformed since RWC2019. Is this because:
a) Marcus Smith isn't good enough
b) England have until recently had tactics and selection that weren't working even with world class fly halves like Ford and Farrell?

Answers in a post card please

(c) I’d say FH is the least of our problems, with the enviable position of 3 excellent choices. Think it’s a bit more to do with the loss of Marler, LCD (injured I know), Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes (at lock), Billy, Underhill, Turry (ok, injured), Youngs & Care (at their albeit distant best), Manu (back when he wasn’t broke), Watson (ok just returning), May – with their replacements just not as good. The 16-19 vintage was way ahead of the current lot.

Poorfour wrote:England have underperformed since RWC2019. Is this because:
a) Marcus Smith isn't good enough
b) England have until recently had tactics and selection that weren't working even with world class fly halves like Ford and Farrell?

Answers in a post card please

Stop if you're being far too reasonable.

Smith was the chosen one, he was supposed to bring order to the England team!

There was a miriad of problems under Eddie. Borthwick seems to be bringing a more cohesive team together. 10 is the current glaring issue. He's fixed a lot of the other issues, even if some are sticking plasters (Slade and Malins). The pack works, discipline has improved massively, defence now looks like we've actually trained it and now we've got to find a more clinical edge in attack and that is partly down to the 10 issues and some of the decision making has been pretty bad.

Marcus Smith is going to get a run with a good pack, a 9 that should look after him and a decent backline. This is either going to be the best game yet under Borthwick or a heavy weekend of drinking for England fans.

formerly known as Sam wrote:There was a miriad of problems under Eddie. Borthwick seems to be bringing a more cohesive team together. 10 is the current glaring issue. He's fixed a lot of the other issues, even if some are sticking plasters (Slade and Malins). The pack works, discipline has improved massively, defence now looks like we've actually trained it and now we've got to find a more clinical edge in attack and that is partly down to the 10 issues and some of the decision making has been pretty bad.

Marcus Smith is going to get a run with a good pack, a 9 that should look after him and a decent backline. This is either going to be the best game yet under Borthwick or a heavy weekend of drinking for England fans.

Agree about the issues under Eddie Jones.  He kept going to the well with players who were past it or going down that road and with no effective game or long term strategy.  England were cratering and all we heard was creative psychobabble.  

So far, mate, I not sure we have seen enough from England to expect much more than heavy drinking regardless of who plays.   What I want to see from Smith at 10 is a better brand of Rugby which gives England a chance of scoring at least somewhat competently.  And not kicking possession away so much.   JvP needs a big performance if England will get over on France.    

And, of course, Malins actually defends and Ben Curry does his water boy impersonation.

I understand why Borthwick wants to give Smith a start but is a start for him against France the best idea? Surely you would want a stronger defensive 10 than Smith against France who do like to run up the 10 channel.

For me, I would start Farrell and bring Smith on around 55-60min mark to face a tiring French defense.

Surely though Billy tp beat France you need to take your chances and playing a fly half with a 47 per cent kicking stat is too risky?

Sexton doesn't go out there and play off the cuff like Russell for example.

Much of Russells playing is scripted and planned - it only appears off the cuff.

eirebilly_01 wrote:I understand why Borthwick wants to give Smith a start but is a start for him against France the best idea? Surely you would want a stronger defensive 10 than Smith against France who do like to run up the 10 channel.

For me, I would start Farrell and bring Smith on around 55-60min mark to face a tiring French defense.

It’s all about the leadership, though, innit? We’ve been told that Genge will start as captain, but that Farrell will come on and will be captain.

Genge, as a prop, will come off at around 55-60 minutes and Farrell will come on. You never know, he may turn out to be a better scrummager than Mako.

Poorfour wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:I understand why Borthwick wants to give Smith a start but is a start for him against France the best idea? Surely you would want a stronger defensive 10 than Smith against France who do like to run up the 10 channel.

For me, I would start Farrell and bring Smith on around 55-60min mark to face a tiring French defense.

It’s all about the leadership, though, innit? We’ve been told that Genge will start as captain, but that Farrell will come on and will be captain.

Genge, as a prop, will come off at around 55-60 minutes and Farrell will come on. You never know, he may turn out to be a better scrummager than Mako.

You talking Marcus Smith or Owen Farrell?

Poorfour wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:I understand why Borthwick wants to give Smith a start but is a start for him against France the best idea? Surely you would want a stronger defensive 10 than Smith against France who do like to run up the 10 channel.

For me, I would start Farrell and bring Smith on around 55-60min mark to face a tiring French defense.

It’s all about the leadership, though, innit? We’ve been told that Genge will start as captain, but that Farrell will come on and will be captain.

Genge, as a prop, will come off at around 55-60 minutes and Farrell will come on. You never know, he may turn out to be a better scrummager than Mako.

Ah sure but I do fear for Smith defensively in the first half, France will surely target him.

eirebilly_01 wrote:
Ah sure but I do fear for Smith defensively in the first half, France will surely target him.

Like every team, every week. He makes his tackles. Sometimes gives up yards, sometimes has to get up and have a second go, but he’s not a revolving door and his injury record so far has been good.

Going repeatedly down a channel that gives up a couple of yards can backfire on them too. Even without Turnover Owen on the pitch, England have a back row who are all good at the breakdown and hunt in packs. If France get their timing to the breakdown slightly wrong, a half break can turn into loss of possession very easily.

Poorfour wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:
Ah sure but I do fear for Smith defensively in the first half, France will surely target him.

Like every team, every week. He makes his tackles. Sometimes gives up yards, sometimes has to get up and have a second go, but he’s not a revolving door and his injury record so far has been good.

Going repeatedly down a channel that gives up a couple of yards can backfire on them too. Even without Turnover Owen on the pitch, England have a back row who are all good at the breakdown and hunt in packs. If France get their timing to the breakdown slightly wrong, a half break can turn into loss of possession very easily.

The Kevin Sinfield defence tends to defend quite narrow and keep bodies on their feet by limiting the number contesting a breakdown. Should mean there's always support for Smith and with Lawrence at 12 it's really only set pieces where he'll be an obvious target. Even then off lineouts England might drop Jack Willis to stand next to him.

I'm sure both sides will look to send their big 12 down the channel of the opposition flyhalf. England definitely should as there's no replacement for Ntamack on the French bench. Rough him up early and hope he tires quickly.

TJ wrote:

Sexton doesn't go out there and play off the cuff like Russell for example.

Much of Russells playing is scripted and planned - it only appears off the cuff.

Much of every attack is scripted and planned. You give your 10 options and they pick the one they think is best. Finn Russell is a stand out because he keeps the ball alive when it looks dead and likes to occasionally hit the high risk play button, even in his own half. Still a good game manager. Sexton just seems to have an age to pick the pass he wants, that's experience and playing with momentum though.

Rain forecast for Saturday at just about the time of kickoff. After the talk of razzle dazzle that so many think is the default of Smith it may well be his territorial game which draws the eye.

BBC podcast wonders - without having the answer - when Borthwick decided to start Smith. It's not that normal to let starting players turn out for their clubs on the weekend before a Test match. If Borthwick did always intend to start Smith, then the decision to release him back to his club is a real departure from the practice of previous England coaches. Most international coaches, for that matter.

Smith's performance for Quins must have played some role. After all, if he'd had a stinker, it's hard to imagine Borthwick deciding to plough ahead, and start him.

It's possible Borthwick did want to try dropping Farrell, and favoured starting Ford, when something happened to change his mind. Perhaps Ford didn't seem up to speed. Then, with Smith putting his hand up, Borthwick went for him, rather than u-turn on dropping Farrell.

Maybe Borthwick hadn't made up his mind at all, and wanted another weekend to ponder his options. Nick Evans could have been an important voice, arguing the merits of giving Smith a start, and using his Twickenham showing as evidence.

An alternative train of thought would be:
- The attack they're training for is based on one that Smith has trained and played under for 6 years and 135 games
- An extra week of training will probably benefit him less than some game time, especially since Smith took on some of the gap left by Evans being with England
- If Smith gets injured, he's still got Farrell
- Ford was never in contention for more than a bench spot at this point, given his lack of gametime.

Talk in the media has been that the selection is based on wanting to play a faster game against France, so it may well be that Borthwick had it planned ahead of last weekend. I do wonder if part of the delay in using Smith was to allow more time for the attacking and defensive systems to bed in with a steadier hand on the tiller.

Still, we'll know in about 32 hours.

I think Borthwick wasn't happy with the Farrell/Smith combo and it was allegedly not what he wanted to field anyway. Dan Kelly's injury forced his hand, having an effective third flanker in the midfield would have certainly added to the team's defence.

Having seen the 10/12 combo not work, Borthwick changed tact. Lawrence was in form and injury meant now selectable (stupid EPS rules) made sense to bring him in for go forward alongside a good defensive organiser like Slade.

Farrell hasn't really performed and the attack has worked in parts. Not all Farrell has done has been bad but he's not nailing the basics which won't go down well with Borthers.

Releasing Smith to Quins was in hindsight a great call. Dropping Farrell was always going to raise a lot of questions but on the bal of a good performance for Quins there would be evidence of Smith being the form man and it would ease the pressure. Smith actually put in an excellent performance which turned the media conversation on its head. It will have boosted Smith's confidence as well which maybe looked a bit shaken after being dropped.

Having Ford in the training week made a lot of sense. Gets him up to speed with the game plan and the players around the squad for when he is back fit. We'll want Ford to be an option for the world cup.

Screw the England back row! I am off to Savannah, Georgia, for a spring season kick-off Rugby tournament. The young'uns will see how a proper flanker cheats masterfully to slow things down to a proper and dignified (ie. my) pace. England could learn a thing or two.

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.

Love that....

Once more unto the ruck, dear friends, once more;
Or seal off the ball with our English flanker

Rugby Fan wrote:Maybe Borthwick hadn't made up his mind at all, and wanted another weekend to ponder his options. Nick Evans could have been an important voice, arguing the merits of giving Smith a start, and using his Twickenham showing as evidence.

This seems most likely to me. I think Borthwick is clearly trying to get a look at lots of different options in certain areas.

In back row and second row there has been a bit of chopping and changing of the squad or potential bench players which seems like trying to see a lot of players he rates first hand.

In the back three we've seen OHC starting, now not making the extended squads. Murley has been in and out of training squads. May recalled briefly presumably for a look at his fitness. Arundell came straight back in the second he was fit. Daly also recalled to the original squad prior to injury. Freeman has been around the squads but not featured.

I think we are seeing the same at fly-half now. He knows he's got three options who are head and shoulders above the other EQP options at Prem level, with varying experience and strengths. It seems he's looking at all three to an extent.

Just looked at some YouTube highlights of old England-France matches. I must have watched it at the time, but I can't recall the 1997 match at Twickenham, when England threw away a 20-6 lead going into the final quarter. France eventually won the Grand Slam, which could have been England's, given we went on to get the Triple Crown in the final week.



I do remember beating France in 2012, which was Lancaster's first season, but had forgotten the tries, which must rank as some of the best we've scored in Paris. Tuilagi had a decent turn of pace back then.

Ah Tom Croft. He had more than a bit of pace as well. Wish we had another flanker like him now.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ah Tom Croft. He had more than a bit of pace as well. Wish we had another flanker like him now.

I'm not sure he'd survive with the physicality these days tbh. He was an amazing line-out option and obviously had bags of pace....but he did struggle in the tight.

With all this focus on physicality and dominant tackles from the pack, it's just wasn't his game.

Barbeary out for the season with a torn ACL. Did someone say the medic tried to get him to run it off?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ah Tom Croft. He had more than a bit of pace as well. Wish we had another flanker like him now.

I'm not sure he'd survive with the physicality these days tbh. He was an amazing line-out option and obviously had bags of pace....but he did struggle in the tight.

With all this focus on physicality and dominant tackles from the pack, it's just wasn't his game.

He didn't struggle when asked to do that role on the Lions tour in SA. Geech even spends time talking about it in his autobiography.

The aggressive line speed, emphasis on kick chase etc if modern rugby would have suited him to a tee. Given his skillset as well he'd have been an ideal link option for popping to a fellow forward or switching out the back.

Rolling mauls are a big part of our attack and having a jumper that only needs one lifter would be immense with that.

Croft was an excellent player as part of a back row with two players who can get through a lot of hard graft. The closest modern equivalent might be someone like Ben Earl, who's lauded for his pace but hasn't yet looked at home at international level - it's been noticeable that his carrying was less effective in traffic than the players who started, and the game didn't open up enough to make the most of his lines out wide. There may be scope for a player like that if England can consistently open games up in the final quarter.

My general view is that players that make big impacts in one era would have every chance to in another but they'd just be different players.

Occasionally it's mentioned that Lomu wouldn't have the same impact now due to better defences or his defence not being as strong but with better training, coaching and analysis he'd have been an even better player.

Simon Shaw's a good example there I think given so many England fans are desperate for a gigantic set-piece lock. Shaw was a favourite of mine for years but if you could drop the exact same player in the modern game today he'd look like he was dragging trailer around. A bit like Willie Skelton when he tried to step up to internationals. With different s & c work, different coaching a player with Shaw's talent could evolve though.

The Robinson, Lewsey and Cohen back three probably a good example too. Given how much smarter and more accurate teams are kicking their lack of kicking ability stands out immediately. There's no reason Lewsey or Robinson couldn't have developed that though.

They'd just have been different as the period you play in always has and always will mould how players train and play.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ah Tom Croft. He had more than a bit of pace as well. Wish we had another flanker like him now.

I'm not sure he'd survive with the physicality these days tbh. He was an amazing line-out option and obviously had bags of pace....but he did struggle in the tight.

With all this focus on physicality and dominant tackles from the pack, it's just wasn't his game.

He didn't struggle when asked to do that role on the Lions tour in SA. Geech even spends time talking about it in his autobiography.

The aggressive line speed, emphasis on kick chase etc if modern rugby would have suited him to a tee. Given his skillset as well he'd have been an ideal link option for popping to a fellow forward or switching out the back.

Rolling mauls are a big part of our attack and having a jumper that only needs one lifter would be immense with that.

Don't agree Croft dealt with the SA physicality at all....and its arguably on a different level now.

Croft had his unique skill sets.....one of the best backrow line-out options I think I've ever seen with Bonnaire and Harinordoquy.....but he struggled against physicality. As I recall, he struggled to put on weight?

Good player, no question....and a great highlights reel with his gas.....but not a player that would excel today.

A fast start could be important here with the weather forecast.

I'm not at all confident about this - could be a shocker

If France play to their full potential they could blow England away by a fair bit. But they haven't been at that level so far this Six Nations.

So exactly what we didn't need

The defence looking like it did against Scotland there.

Slade on a bit of a wander there.

Fast start - but wrong team. Not sure that ball was out though as it wasn't beyond the back foot, unless it was outside the feet but couldn't see from the angle.

Slade again creating the space.

where was the deliberate knock-on?

Hate to find myself agreeing with often abysmal comms but the failure to stop the carry or offload when making a double tackle feels like the bigger error in that first try.

Willis done on the inside for Aldritt's break too.

Cracking hands from Dombrandt on the gain line there.

Hands clearly on the ground before that turnover ... ref is hopeless

Poor from Willis for the try.....and Steward turning like an oil tanker!

Great start lads.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Poor from Willis for the try.....and Steward turning like an oil tanker!

Great start lads.

Willis who was left exposed by Slade walk about and Steward who had to stand his ground then go again.

So we're kicking away attacking ball again

Ah a shame. Another really good bit of handling from Genge just before contact then the knock on at the breakdown.

England forwards clearly trying to shift the ball just before contact though.

That's the issue with the spiral bomb. If it's hit slightly wrong it ends up very long. Still a good weapon from those sorts of free kicks though IMO.

Ludlam giving a few pens away. Needs to be Wales level really. Though 6 in a match was amazing.

Good kick that from Ntamack.

Lots of penalties conceded early, plus it looks like we're seeing good France today.

Both flankers need to up their game