England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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Continued.......

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

We had a more experienced and successful coach, when Borthwick arrived which aspect of our game would you say way working really well?

The biggest concern for me and has been for a long time as you and others know is our power and physicality.

If Underhill etc is not available we need to find some real genuine replacements.
I know I bang on...but Ted Hill is a physical monster. Why has he not even been looked at.

Dombrandt v Aldritt was just laughable and that was the epitome of the packs.

Midfield...get a proper 12 in there and put Lawrence at 13. Look what Danty did. Can Kelly offer us the same...or post World Cup Hartley or Atkinson etc.

Big rebuild job on...that's for sure....

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

Borthwick has said in all the keys aspects of the game...scrum etc we are the worst in top level international rugby...so an experienced coach wasn't doing great.

And it won't be for years of this....Borthwick will get it right quickly...

Saw this on my Faceache feed and thought it pretty apt.

"The English rugby team standing with Gary Lineker today and not showing up to work"

Geordie wrote:The biggest concern for me and has been for a long time as you and others know is our power and physicality.

If Underhill etc is not available we need to find some real genuine replacements.
I know I bang on...but Ted Hill is a physical monster. Why has he not even been looked at.

Dombrandt v Aldritt was just laughable and that was the epitome of the packs.

Midfield...get a proper 12 in there and put Lawrence at 13. Look what Danty did. Can Kelly offer us the same...or post World Cup Hartley or Atkinson etc.

Big rebuild job on...that's for sure....

We don't have a Danty. France don't have another Danty, it's not a coincidence his return just happened in France's best performance in the tournament.

I think Ted Hill is injured, didn't play for Bath last night.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

We had a more experienced and successful coach, when Borthwick arrived which aspect of our game would you say way working really well?

You mean from Jones to Borthwick? Not much was working under Jones which is why I was calling for his head.

Ouch!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

We had a more experienced and successful coach, when Borthwick arrived which aspect of our game would you say way working really well?

You mean from Jones to Borthwick?  Not much was working under Jones which is why I was calling for his head.

Exactly nowt was working and so we've got a full rebuild job to go through. Includes a new backroom staff, every playing element and I suspect quite a few more squad changes in the summer when it's EPS open season.

The French meanwhile a gunning for international top spot and winning their home world cup.

Sadly there's still a very unfun game against Ireland to go. I do wonder if we'll see changes for that game aimed at giving us more physicality up front. Chessum to 6 and Ribbans in the row perhaps. Might be Dombrandt dropping out though. We were desperately short of a carrier able to breach the French defence. Steward and Lawrence managed a couple of dents further out but the backrow got humiliated. Sinckler having an off game didn't help.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

We had a more experienced and successful coach, when Borthwick arrived which aspect of our game would you say way working really well?

You mean from Jones to Borthwick?  Not much was working under Jones which is why I was calling for his head.

Exactly nowt was working and so we've got a full rebuild job to go through. Includes a new backroom staff, every playing element and I suspect quite a few more squad changes in the summer when it's EPS open season.

The French meanwhile a gunning for international top spot and winning their home world cup.

Sadly there's still a very unfun game against Ireland to go. I do wonder if we'll see changes for that game aimed at giving us more physicality up front. Chessum to 6 and Ribbans in the row perhaps. Might be Dombrandt dropping out though. We were desperately short of a carrier able to breach the French defence. Steward and Lawrence managed a couple of dents further out but the backrow got humiliated. Sinckler having an off game didn't help.

Yup. And I suppose that was my reason in part for preferring others than Borthwick initially who I saw as a bit continuity Jones. He's going to be given time now of course he has to. But this is a bad marker early doors.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

We had a more experienced and successful coach, when Borthwick arrived which aspect of our game would you say way working really well?

You mean from Jones to Borthwick?  Not much was working under Jones which is why I was calling for his head.

Exactly nowt was working and so we've got a full rebuild job to go through. Includes a new backroom staff, every playing element and I suspect quite a few more squad changes in the summer when it's EPS open season.

The French meanwhile a gunning for international top spot and winning their home world cup.

Sadly there's still a very unfun game against Ireland to go. I do wonder if we'll see changes for that game aimed at giving us more physicality up front. Chessum to 6 and Ribbans in the row perhaps. Might be Dombrandt dropping out though. We were desperately short of a carrier able to breach the French defence. Steward and Lawrence managed a couple of dents further out but the backrow got humiliated. Sinckler having an off game didn't help.

Yup. And I suppose that was my reason in part for preferring others than Borthwick initially who I saw as a bit continuity Jones. He's going to be given time now of course he has to. But this is a bad marker early doors.

It certainly isn't good.

Not sure he's a continuity candidate. Several of the big names Eddie didn't like to drop have gone already.

Wow what happened guys… pants and down and lubed up, like Scotland u20s last night. England and Wales look like World Cup no-hopers at the moment.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

We had a more experienced and successful coach, when Borthwick arrived which aspect of our game would you say way working really well?

You mean from Jones to Borthwick?  Not much was working under Jones which is why I was calling for his head.

Exactly nowt was working and so we've got a full rebuild job to go through. Includes a new backroom staff, every playing element and I suspect quite a few more squad changes in the summer when it's EPS open season.

The French meanwhile a gunning for international top spot and winning their home world cup.

Sadly there's still a very unfun game against Ireland to go. I do wonder if we'll see changes for that game aimed at giving us more physicality up front. Chessum to 6 and Ribbans in the row perhaps. Might be Dombrandt dropping out though. We were desperately short of a carrier able to breach the French defence. Steward and Lawrence managed a couple of dents further out but the backrow got humiliated. Sinckler having an off game didn't help.

An off game or back to normal after a few decent games?

Borthwick has a big job on his hands.

But he has Ireland, then 3 world cup wa4m up games games and then he's in to the world Cup so no big changes to the squad, a mediocre world Cup and then he can start the rebuild properly. Hopefully a few of the kids really develop quick

Borthwick's fortunate England have got such a soft draw for the World Cup. Can get to the semi-finals without needing to play any of South Africa/Ireland/Scotland/France/New Zealand.

Hmm, so we have developed a side that even Aus could thrash, maybe in a world cup? You rascal Eddie, nicely played.

Duty281 wrote:Borthwick's fortunate England have got such a soft draw for the World Cup. Can get to the semi-finals without needing to play any of South Africa/Ireland/Scotland/France/New Zealand.

Well unless we have Italy in every game to the semis, then we're off for an early bath.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

We had a more experienced and successful coach, when Borthwick arrived which aspect of our game would you say way working really well?

You mean from Jones to Borthwick?  Not much was working under Jones which is why I was calling for his head.

Exactly nowt was working and so we've got a full rebuild job to go through. Includes a new backroom staff, every playing element and I suspect quite a few more squad changes in the summer when it's EPS open season.

The French meanwhile a gunning for international top spot and winning their home world cup.

Sadly there's still a very unfun game against Ireland to go. I do wonder if we'll see changes for that game aimed at giving us more physicality up front. Chessum to 6 and Ribbans in the row perhaps. Might be Dombrandt dropping out though. We were desperately short of a carrier able to breach the French defence. Steward and Lawrence managed a couple of dents further out but the backrow got humiliated. Sinckler having an off game didn't help.

Yup. And I suppose that was my reason in part for preferring others than Borthwick initially who I saw as a bit continuity Jones. He's going to be given time now of course he has to. But this is a bad marker early doors.

It certainly isn't good.

Not sure he's a continuity candidate. Several of the big names Eddie didn't like to drop have gone already.

Still think he's as close as we could get to continuity. Part of the Jones coaching group and idenifitifed pretty early as the favourite from that group to go on to be head coach at some point. There was a lot of sense of him being the rfus choice but personally like I said I would have preferred a bigger side step to the new coach.

We've seen plenty of times after a big blow out a response a week later so always hope. Decent run in after next week as well even to the group of the WC. I still think there are a few easy switch ins to make this group better but we do need a more attacking mindset too.

I feel sorry for Dombrandt...spanked by Aldritt and now has to face the even better Doris...

Nail in his international career.

After this 6n can Borthwick make as many changes as he wants to the squad, which will be for the world Cup warm ups in August..

Think there could be a few changes...certainly to the wider squad

Jeez boys, don't tell me what happened! I haven't watched it yet (though the Telegraph was pretty brutal in their write-up).

Quick update from Savannah, Georgia (the US state, not the country). Played the first day of the tournament today.
70°F. Sun.
Two games, one more tomorrow. One as blindside the next in the second row. I'm still 5' 10".
Pulled groin.
Possible sport hernia.
Neck sprain.
Lower back muscle inflammation.

doctor_grey wrote:Jeez boys, don't tell me what happened!  I haven't watched it yet (though the Telegraph was pretty brutal in their write-up).

Quick update from Savannah, Georgia (the US state, not the country).  Played the first day of the tournament today.  
70°F.  Sun.
Two games, one more tomorrow.  One as blindside the next in the second row.  I'm still 5' 10".  
Pulled groin.
Possible sport hernia.  
Neck sprain.  
Lower back muscle inflammation.

Strap yourself up, you're in the back row against Ireland next week. Might be a bit colder, mind.

God. On reflection after a sleep that game gets worse. We had a pretty good scrum. I enjoyed that bit.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

We had a more experienced and successful coach, when Borthwick arrived which aspect of our game would you say way working really well?

You mean from Jones to Borthwick?  Not much was working under Jones which is why I was calling for his head.

Exactly nowt was working and so we've got a full rebuild job to go through. Includes a new backroom staff, every playing element and I suspect quite a few more squad changes in the summer when it's EPS open season.

The French meanwhile a gunning for international top spot and winning their home world cup.

Sadly there's still a very unfun game against Ireland to go. I do wonder if we'll see changes for that game aimed at giving us more physicality up front. Chessum to 6 and Ribbans in the row perhaps. Might be Dombrandt dropping out though. We were desperately short of a carrier able to breach the French defence. Steward and Lawrence managed a couple of dents further out but the backrow got humiliated. Sinckler having an off game didn't help.

Yup. And I suppose that was my reason in part for preferring others than Borthwick initially who I saw as a bit continuity Jones. He's going to be given time now of course he has to. But this is a bad marker early doors.

It certainly isn't good.

Not sure he's a continuity candidate. Several of the big names Eddie didn't like to drop have gone already.

Still think he's as close as we could get to continuity. Part of the Jones coaching group and idenifitifed pretty early as the favourite from that group to go on to be head coach at some point. There was a lot of sense of him being the rfus choice but personally like I said I would have preferred a bigger side step to the new coach.

We've seen plenty of times after a big blow out a response a week later so always hope. Decent run in after next week as well even to the group of the WC. I still think there are a few easy switch ins to make this group better but we do need a more attacking mindset too.

You can have all the attacking mindset you like but no momentum means slow ball to play with. We played probably the most attacking game plan of the tournament for us with Steward running more kicks back than he has previously. We had quite a bit if time in the France 22. They demolished our breakdown, limited our carrying impact and we made errors under the pressure.

England need to up the physicality levels, hit the breakdowns earlier and harder then from somewhere find another forward who can get us over the gain line to replace Dombrandt who was pitiful.

I find it difficult to criticise any of the backline too much after getting absolutely destroyed in the forwards. I've not seen us dominated so much since probably the WC final against SA, it was quite something.

The French pack looked bigger, stronger and more savvy. The front row struggled in the scrum and hardly showed up in the loose....the engine room, for all of their attempts, looked underpowered (arguably the only two players to come out with a little credit)....and the backrow was an utter disaster.

Willis for all his adoring fans.....was utterly bullied throughout and looking back so far has only really put in a good performance against Italy. He was extremely poor and looked very much out of his depth  (7 tackles/3 missed - 4 runs/6m)

Ludlam, for all his endeavor and previous good showings....was completely ineffective and made very little ground throughout. He did come into things somewhat in the 2nd half but didn't have enough support. (12 tackles/2 missed - 5 runs/19m).

Dombrandt, never really got a chance to get into the game and was mainly stuck defending....which lets be honest, isn't really why he's in the side. (13 tackles/1 missed - 7 runs/34m)

The lack of power overall in the backrow was concerning......I think we need a bigger, stronger option at 6 and would agree you're looking at a lock hybrid or somebody like Hill.

7....Curry to come back in and Ludlam to hang around with some credit. Underhill.....who knows.

8.....I'm not sure. We need 2 better flankers to have Dombrandt at 8 for me.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woodward....don't overreact. Its not that big of a gap. Criticism of the Borthwick tactics though. Young coach lots of learning.

Don't normally agree with him bit he's right. We'll rebuild...I have faith.

To a degree yes. We have deliberately gone for an inexperienced coach but with the goal that we hit the ground running. There were more experienced coaches and more successful coaches not considered. So yes perhaps we're in for 4 years of this....

We had a more experienced and successful coach, when Borthwick arrived which aspect of our game would you say way working really well?

You mean from Jones to Borthwick?  Not much was working under Jones which is why I was calling for his head.

Exactly nowt was working and so we've got a full rebuild job to go through. Includes a new backroom staff, every playing element and I suspect quite a few more squad changes in the summer when it's EPS open season.

The French meanwhile a gunning for international top spot and winning their home world cup.

Sadly there's still a very unfun game against Ireland to go. I do wonder if we'll see changes for that game aimed at giving us more physicality up front. Chessum to 6 and Ribbans in the row perhaps. Might be Dombrandt dropping out though. We were desperately short of a carrier able to breach the French defence. Steward and Lawrence managed a couple of dents further out but the backrow got humiliated. Sinckler having an off game didn't help.

Yup. And I suppose that was my reason in part for preferring others than Borthwick initially who I saw as a bit continuity Jones. He's going to be given time now of course he has to. But this is a bad marker early doors.

It certainly isn't good.

Not sure he's a continuity candidate. Several of the big names Eddie didn't like to drop have gone already.

Still think he's as close as we could get to continuity. Part of the Jones coaching group and idenifitifed pretty early as the favourite from that group to go on to be head coach at some point. There was a lot of sense of him being the rfus choice but personally like I said I would have preferred a bigger side step to the new coach.

We've seen plenty of times after a big blow out a response a week later so always hope. Decent run in after next week as well even to the group of the WC. I still think there are a few easy switch ins to make this group better but we do need a more attacking mindset too.

You can have all the attacking mindset you like but no momentum means slow ball to play with. We played probably the most attacking game plan of the tournament for us with Steward running more kicks back than he has previously. We had quite a bit if time in the France 22. They demolished our breakdown, limited our carrying impact and we made errors under the pressure.

England need to up the physicality levels, hit the breakdowns earlier and harder then from somewhere find another forward who can get us over the gain line to replace Dombrandt who was pitiful.

I agree and in a sense that's what I meant. We were looking to carry and safely secure the ball epitomised by that Domvrandt carry late on where he goes to ground quickly rather than try to drive through the contact, I think the thought was that every time someone had made a half break there was absolutely no support. Ironically made it easier to jackal and obviously defend. France on the other hand simply took our jacking away by their offloads. Lots of work to do. No idea what they focus on this week. Defence? Lineout and maul? Support running? This is the dream coaching team the rfu wanted, they're earning their money this week.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I find it difficult to criticise any of the backline too much after getting absolutely destroyed in the forwards. I've not seen us dominated so much since probably the WC final against SA, it was quite something.

The French pack looked bigger, stronger and more savvy. The front row struggled in the scrum and hardly showed up in the loose....the engine room, for all of their attempts, looked underpowered (arguably the only two players to come out with a little credit)....and the backrow was an utter disaster.

Willis for all his adoring fans.....was utterly bullied throughout and looking back so far has only really put in a good performance against Italy. He was extremely poor and looked very much out of his depth  (7 tackles/3 missed - 4 runs/6m)

Ludlam, for all his endeavor and previous good showings....was completely ineffective and made very little ground throughout. He did come into things somewhat in the 2nd half but didn't have enough support. (12 tackles/2 missed - 5 runs/19m).

Dombrandt, never really got a chance to get into the game and was mainly stuck defending....which lets be honest, isn't really why he's in the side. (13 tackles/1 missed - 7 runs/34m)

The lack of power overall in the backrow was concerning......I think we need a bigger, stronger option at 6 and would agree you're looking at a lock hybrid or somebody like Hill.

7....Curry to come back in and Ludlam to hang around with some credit. Underhill.....who knows.

8.....I'm not sure. We need 2 better flankers to have Dombrandt at 8 for me.

France took away Willis strength in terms of rucks very well. He's still our second best flanker after Curry.

For me the key difference was the backs - not just the halfbacks but the total lack of imaginative attacking plays. No wraparounds, no moves to create space, no one coming from deep etc etc. England more than matched the French on most stats but were simply toothless in attack. You cannot lay this at Smiths door solely because no one was helping him create anything

But we had Slade and Malins. They're intelligent playmakers. Apparently.

So baring injury replacements Borthwick can make 5 changes to the squad for the next series of games...which is the world Cup.

Then he can start from new post World Cup.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I find it difficult to criticise any of the backline too much after getting absolutely destroyed in the forwards. I've not seen us dominated so much since probably the WC final against SA, it was quite something.

The French pack looked bigger, stronger and more savvy. The front row struggled in the scrum and hardly showed up in the loose....the engine room, for all of their attempts, looked underpowered (arguably the only two players to come out with a little credit)....and the backrow was an utter disaster.

Willis for all his adoring fans.....was utterly bullied throughout and looking back so far has only really put in a good performance against Italy. He was extremely poor and looked very much out of his depth  (7 tackles/3 missed - 4 runs/6m)

Ludlam, for all his endeavor and previous good showings....was completely ineffective and made very little ground throughout. He did come into things somewhat in the 2nd half but didn't have enough support. (12 tackles/2 missed - 5 runs/19m).

Dombrandt, never really got a chance to get into the game and was mainly stuck defending....which lets be honest, isn't really why he's in the side. (13 tackles/1 missed - 7 runs/34m)

The lack of power overall in the backrow was concerning......I think we need a bigger, stronger option at 6 and would agree you're looking at a lock hybrid or somebody like Hill.

7....Curry to come back in and Ludlam to hang around with some credit. Underhill.....who knows.

8.....I'm not sure. We need 2 better flankers to have Dombrandt at 8 for me.

France took away Willis strength in terms of rucks very well. He's still our second best flanker after Curry.

Did they also make him struggle defensively....miss tackles....be totally ineffective carrying?

Willis is nowhere near the levels of Lawes, Curry, Underhill....he was bullied yesterday.

I know he's adored on here but he was just plain awful.

Well that was a battering. No excuses, completely out played in every facet of game.
I'd say Itoje and Steward aside none of England showed up.

Obviously masses of credit to France who were magnificent and turned up with a 9.5/10 performance.

England DEFINITELY had a very off day which coincided with arguably Frances best ever.

Not even sure if any variation of team 15/23 would have made any difference. Going on that game England are a million miles away at the moment.

All the talk about Smith v Farrell null and void. I would say things got slightly better when Mitchell got on for JvP and surely Mitchell starts next week. Otherwise God knows what Borthwick will do selection wise.

TJ wrote:For me the key difference was the backs - not just the halfbacks but the total lack of imaginative attacking plays.  No wraparounds, no moves to create space, no one coming from deep etc etc.  England more than matched the French on most stats but were simply toothless in attack.  You cannot lay this at Smiths door solely because no one was helping him create anything

That's what you took from this game? We were totally outmuscled and outplayed in the pack......any ball the backs got was slow and the breakdown was a shambles for pretty much 80mins. The one time the pack gave some kind of foundation, we made yards and eventually scored a try.

Smith wasn't great but he was playing with scraps...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I find it difficult to criticise any of the backline too much after getting absolutely destroyed in the forwards. I've not seen us dominated so much since probably the WC final against SA, it was quite something.

The French pack looked bigger, stronger and more savvy. The front row struggled in the scrum and hardly showed up in the loose....the engine room, for all of their attempts, looked underpowered (arguably the only two players to come out with a little credit)....and the backrow was an utter disaster.

Willis for all his adoring fans.....was utterly bullied throughout and looking back so far has only really put in a good performance against Italy. He was extremely poor and looked very much out of his depth  (7 tackles/3 missed - 4 runs/6m)

Ludlam, for all his endeavor and previous good showings....was completely ineffective and made very little ground throughout. He did come into things somewhat in the 2nd half but didn't have enough support. (12 tackles/2 missed - 5 runs/19m).

Dombrandt, never really got a chance to get into the game and was mainly stuck defending....which lets be honest, isn't really why he's in the side. (13 tackles/1 missed - 7 runs/34m)

The lack of power overall in the backrow was concerning......I think we need a bigger, stronger option at 6 and would agree you're looking at a lock hybrid or somebody like Hill.

7....Curry to come back in and Ludlam to hang around with some credit. Underhill.....who knows.

8.....I'm not sure. We need 2 better flankers to have Dombrandt at 8 for me.

France took away Willis strength in terms of rucks very well. He's still our second best flanker after Curry.

Did they also make him struggle defensively....miss tackles....be totally ineffective carrying?  

Willis is nowhere near the levels of Lawes, Curry, Underhill....he was bullied yesterday.

I know he's adored on here but he was just plain awful.

To be fair that label could be out on most of the pack...Sinckler back ot his woeful self. Dombrandt underpowered at this level, Ludlum...has had lots of plaudits...but questions of his level...Itoje battled but was on a hiding to nothing...Genge barely showed up...George anonymous...

I've bored everyone for years...but Rugby needs some basic essentials...power and physicality is one...and I've moaned for years...we don't pick the right players....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I find it difficult to criticise any of the backline too much after getting absolutely destroyed in the forwards. I've not seen us dominated so much since probably the WC final against SA, it was quite something.

The French pack looked bigger, stronger and more savvy. The front row struggled in the scrum and hardly showed up in the loose....the engine room, for all of their attempts, looked underpowered (arguably the only two players to come out with a little credit)....and the backrow was an utter disaster.

Willis for all his adoring fans.....was utterly bullied throughout and looking back so far has only really put in a good performance against Italy. He was extremely poor and looked very much out of his depth  (7 tackles/3 missed - 4 runs/6m)

Ludlam, for all his endeavor and previous good showings....was completely ineffective and made very little ground throughout. He did come into things somewhat in the 2nd half but didn't have enough support. (12 tackles/2 missed - 5 runs/19m).

Dombrandt, never really got a chance to get into the game and was mainly stuck defending....which lets be honest, isn't really why he's in the side. (13 tackles/1 missed - 7 runs/34m)

The lack of power overall in the backrow was concerning......I think we need a bigger, stronger option at 6 and would agree you're looking at a lock hybrid or somebody like Hill.

7....Curry to come back in and Ludlam to hang around with some credit. Underhill.....who knows.

8.....I'm not sure. We need 2 better flankers to have Dombrandt at 8 for me.

France took away Willis strength in terms of rucks very well. He's still our second best flanker after Curry.

Did they also make him struggle defensively....miss tackles....be totally ineffective carrying?  

Willis is nowhere near the levels of Lawes, Curry, Underhill....he was bullied yesterday.

I know he's adored on here but he was just plain awful.

Easily better than Underhill and Lawes. Don't think he was particularly great yesterday but he was getting blamed for Slades defensive mistakes!

That was the poorest performance from an England pack that I can remember. Only Itoje walks away with any credit from the pack and he was not that good either.

I cannot imagine that England will be this poor against Ireland so I am still very cautious.
Mitchell was fantastic when he came on and must certainly start against Ireland. I would also keep with Smith as he really did not have much to work with after that pack display.

mountain man wrote:Well that was a battering. No excuses, completely out played in every facet of game.
I'd say Itoje and Steward aside none of England showed up.

Obviously masses of credit to France who were magnificent and turned up with a 9.5/10 performance.

England DEFINITELY had a very off day which coincided with arguably Frances best ever.

Not even sure if any variation of team 15/23 would have made any difference. Going on that game England are a million miles away at the moment.

All the talk about Smith v Farrell null and void. I would say things got slightly better when Mitchell got on for JvP and surely Mitchell starts next week. Otherwise God knows what Borthwick will do selection wise.

Mitchell was much better. Bar I don't understand how any sh doesn't know about the ball being over the try line from a ruck and not kicking it away or dotting it down is suicide.

eirebilly_01 wrote:That was the poorest performance from an England pack that I can remember. Only Itoje walks away with any credit from the pack and he was not that good either.

I cannot imagine that England will be this poor against Ireland so I am still very cautious.
Mitchell was fantastic when he came on and must certainly start against Ireland. I would also keep with Smith as he really did not have much to work with after that pack display.

Im the same Billy. Can’t understand how England managed to be so bad. They still have enough good players to beat us.

There is absolutely no evidence that suggests Willis is "easily better than Underhill and Lawes". He's never done anything to suggest that he's anywhere close to being at the level the other 2 are....not even in the conversation.

I'm not sure you can really blame Slade for Willis only making 7 tackles (and missing 3) and only making 1.5m a carry....

Mitchell was much better, my point was "things" got slightly better when he came on. Trouble was rest of side didn't improve!

I think England be a lot better against Ireland, I have little hope of a win but just can't see them being as poor again.

However, point still stands that if Borthwick is picking best 23 available then I'm struggling to see how we compete against Fra/Ire/SA/NZ.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There is absolutely no evidence that suggests Willis is "easily better than Underhill and Lawes". He's never done anything to suggest that he's anywhere close to being at the level the other 2 are....not even in the conversation.

I'm not sure you can really blame Slade for only making 7 tackles (and missing 3) and only making 1.5m a carry....

And yet the conversation includes him.

Why can't we look at his performance. I know it's difficult when the French are running rampant but no one else seems to be avoiding analysis. I don't blame his carrying he's not a creative or powerful runner. But his defensive side yesterday was all over the place.

mountain man wrote:Mitchell was much better, my point was "things" got slightly better when he came on. Trouble was rest of side didn't improve!

I think England be a lot better against Ireland, I have little hope of a win but just can't see them being as poor again.

However, point still stands that if Borthwick is picking best 23 available then I'm struggling to see how we compete against Fra/Ire/SA/NZ.

Tbf it was a good substitution at the right time. The second Lawrence is injured though really kicks us where it hurts.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There is absolutely no evidence that suggests Willis is "easily better than Underhill and Lawes". He's never done anything to suggest that he's anywhere close to being at the level the other 2 are....not even in the conversation.

I'm not sure you can really blame Slade for only making 7 tackles (and missing 3) and only making 1.5m a carry....

And yet the conversation includes him.

Why can't we look at his performance. I know it's difficult when the French are running rampant but no one else seems to be avoiding analysis. I don't blame his carrying he's not a creative or powerful runner. But his defensive side yesterday was all over the place.

Yes, he was all over the place not making tackles....and missing ones that he should be making. He was completely ineffectual.......excuses can be made, but end of the day he was just poor. If he's in the team for his defensive game alone...what did he bring?

It's a tough take realising we have such a drop off from Lawes/Underhill/Curry.........

Hiw much do you change for Ireland....not much I guess

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Mitchell was much better, my point was "things" got slightly better when he came on. Trouble was rest of side didn't improve!

I think England be a lot better against Ireland, I have little hope of a win but just can't see them being as poor again.

However, point still stands that if Borthwick is picking best 23 available then I'm struggling to see how we compete against Fra/Ire/SA/NZ.

Tbf it was a good substitution at the right time. The second Lawrence is injured though really kicks us where it hurts.

Still think Kelly being injured was a big blow despite his inexperience at this level.

Seems to be quite a lot of criticism for individual players, Willis, Dombrandt, Ludlum, Sinckler, George, basicially most of pack.

However, of the players available for selection would any combination of team made much difference? I'm not so sure.
France were a seemingly unstoppable force yesterday and England were, well awful.
I cannot though think of a 15/23 which would have altered result by much.

Love to see it but at moment can't.

Geordie wrote:Hiw much do you change for Ireland....not much I guess

Backrow has to be shaken up....I'd potentially look to strengthen the engine room too.

Could we see:

4. Ribbans
5. Itoje
6. Chessum/Lawes
7. Ludlam
8. Dombrandt

Ireland are arguably stronger in the contact than France which is very worrying with us struggling so much. Front row.....is there anybody we could be bring in? I'm not sure there is.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There is absolutely no evidence that suggests Willis is "easily better than Underhill and Lawes". He's never done anything to suggest that he's anywhere close to being at the level the other 2 are....not even in the conversation.

I'm not sure you can really blame Slade for only making 7 tackles (and missing 3) and only making 1.5m a carry....

And yet the conversation includes him.

Why can't we look at his performance. I know it's difficult when the French are running rampant but no one else seems to be avoiding analysis. I don't blame his carrying he's not a creative or powerful runner. But his defensive side yesterday was all over the place.

Yes, he was all over the place not making tackles....and missing ones that he should be making. He was completely ineffectual.......excuses can be made, but end of the day he was just poor. If he's in the team for his defensive game alone...what did he bring?

It's a tough take realising we have such a drop off from Lawes/Underhill/Curry.........

He hasn't brought much at all. Kicking with his eft foot. Defence. Neither were good yesterday. He's surely about on his last chance. Kelly will replace him soon as he's fit. And stays fit.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Mitchell was much better, my point was "things" got slightly better when he came on. Trouble was rest of side didn't improve!

I think England be a lot better against Ireland, I have little hope of a win but just can't see them being as poor again.

However, point still stands that if Borthwick is picking best 23 available then I'm struggling to see how we compete against Fra/Ire/SA/NZ.

Tbf it was a good substitution at the right time. The second Lawrence is injured though really kicks us where it hurts.

Still think Kelly being injured was a big blow despite his inexperience at this level.

Could well be. The common thought is that defence and set piece are the easiest things to get right, 2 nightmares in defence so far and he's obviously proved class for Leicester there.

mountain man wrote:Seems to be quite a lot of criticism for individual players, Willis, Dombrandt, Ludlum, Sinckler, George, basicially most of pack.

However, of the players available for selection would any combination of team made much difference? I'm not so sure.
France were a seemingly unstoppable force yesterday and England were, well awful.
I cannot though think of a 15/23 which would have altered result by much.

Love to see it but at moment can't.

I'm hoping it starts to click but more players getting used to this set of coaches?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There is absolutely no evidence that suggests Willis is "easily better than Underhill and Lawes". He's never done anything to suggest that he's anywhere close to being at the level the other 2 are....not even in the conversation.

I'm not sure you can really blame Slade for only making 7 tackles (and missing 3) and only making 1.5m a carry....

And yet the conversation includes him.

Why can't we look at his performance. I know it's difficult when the French are running rampant but no one else seems to be avoiding analysis. I don't blame his carrying he's not a creative or powerful runner. But his defensive side yesterday was all over the place.

Yes, he was all over the place not making tackles....and missing ones that he should be making. He was completely ineffectual.......excuses can be made, but end of the day he was just poor. If he's in the team for his defensive game alone...what did he bring?

It's a tough take realising we have such a drop off from Lawes/Underhill/Curry.........

He hasn't brought much at all. Kicking with his eft foot. Defence. Neither were good yesterday. He's surely about on his last chance. Kelly will replace him soon as he's fit. And stays fit.

Kelly could maybe do a better job at flanker than Willis to be fair.........