England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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Continued.......

France looked impressive and had far more zip than when they played Ireland, where they looked tired. It looked like one match in three weekends had rejuvenated some of the French players too. They also had something to prove having not won a 6N game at Twickenham since 2005, which Ibanez and Edwards would definitely have talked about.
The English scrum problems looked to me like a general lack of force coming through from the second row. Chessum is clearly the future but he is only 22 and whilst he has the timber, he probably has some way to go to fulfilling his power potential.
I note that Borthwick has brought in Jonny Hill and Collier for scrummaging practice who bring scrum brute force and knowhow respectively.
France were far more clinical in sealing off the breakdown than Wales leaving minimal opportunity for the specialist turnover flankers. I would have thought that should have been anticipated with kiwi ref O'Keefe far more likely to be lenient in that area, in the name of pace on the game. I don't understand what Dombrandts role was, whether to lurk in midfield or carry closer in to the ruck, he ended up not really doing either.

Second half England were chasing the game which left space for counter attacks and France were good enough to take their chances. Despite the score from that game I am not too despondent, whilst clearly an improvement is required, the margins are small.

Against Ireland, England will need to legally target the kiwi scrum half, if they can get to him the timing of the Irish back play and the dummy/obstructing runners falters - but as ever easier said than done. England and Ireland usually cancel each other out at set piece, although England did pretty well last year with most of the same players.

We clearly miss Curry and perhaps, with a little bias, Underhill too. Tuilagi, despite comment on here, as a one-off game will also give Ireland something to think about.
Jaco Peyper owes a England a big game too and just if he gives England a fair share of the 50/50s against the pressure of a Dublin crowd, would be a plus.

Looking forward to the game and probably Ireland's coronation of Sexton into Irish rugby legend. Come the RWC, France however will surely be favourites and probably deserve a gold star given their contribution to numerous previous tournaments. I certainly wouldn't begrudge them that.

Well, after being humped out of the RWC15 in the groups with a good seeing to by Aus (jeez, how bad must we have been, Aus fgs!) we went on, in the next 4-year cycle, to win 2 6Ns and get to a RWC final after spanking one of the favourites. So there is hope – for 2027 that is.

Mind you, if it’s the humbling of the pack that was the problem on Sat, then we’re in more trouble than I thought. The best pack in the world wouldn’t win matches with the 9, 11, 12, 13 & 14 we have – these guys seem to define mediocrity in test rugby; I mean would any of our backs get into a Scotland side world ranked 5th?

I guess a return of LCD, the real Sinckler (not the cardboard cut-out he’s been replaced with), Lawes and Turry might take the edge off any future spankings.

Despite the score from that game I am not too despondent, whilst clearly an improvement is required, the margins are small.

I like your optimism but I thought England were miles off on Saturday. I guess we'll see this week but it looks to me as if gap between Fra/Ire and England is big. In cohesion, power, organisation and game plan.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Drop our best lock...

Aside from that did the Hill at 8 experiment go anywhere for Wuss? When I've seen Bath he's playing back at 6, though he's not played in a while has he?

Thay was a jit of fun 7 5, but lets be clear Itoje isnt irreplaceable with his form at the moment.

If we can put some some power and grunt around him though then maybe he can be let loose to cause the havoc he used to a few seasons ago.

Rugby Fan wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:If England do win in Dublin and prevent Ireland from winning the Grand Slam, do Ireland still wim the six nations?

Ireland have 19 points, with a scoring points difference of 66, and France have 15, with a difference of 46. If Ireland get something out of a loss, then they should still take the title.

Ireland need 2 match points to secure the title. France will put 40+ points on Wales and secure the BP to reach 20 points and a +80ish PD. That will mean a losing BP won't be enough, we will need 2 match points.

Realistically, win or draw, as I don't see this being a try-fest. It will be cagey and nerve wrecking. Ireland need an early score to keep England at arm's length like in 2018.

the-goon2 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:If England do win in Dublin and prevent Ireland from winning the Grand Slam, do Ireland still wim the six nations?

Ireland have 19 points, with a scoring points difference of 66, and France have 15, with a difference of 46. If Ireland get something out of a loss, then they should still take the title.

Ireland need 2 match points to secure the title. France will put 40+ points on Wales and secure the BP to reach 20 points and a +80ish PD. That will mean a losing BP won't be enough, we will need 2 match points.

Realistically, win or draw, as I don't see this being a try-fest. It will be cagey and nerve wrecking. Ireland need an early score to keep England at arm's length like in 2018.

Win, draw or two losing BPs would be enough.

Willis extends with Toulouse. As the rules currently stand he'd be saying bye to his England career for the time being.

Finally had a chance to watch the France game.  First thought is France are really good and counter as well as anyone.  Made some moves appear almost effortless.  On the other hand England really did make it easier for them.  And this was a total team collapse.  Hard to tell exactly what England were trying to do at times because they seemed clueless.  

I don't remember seeing an England team so out of it from virtually the opening whistle.  So, for me it's hard to comment about too many players since they all seemed so....similar.  

That said, Dombrandt seemed really second best which is a shame because he can be a spark.  
Sinckler appeared to be there for the game cheque (he was not alone there).  
Itoje, well, there is something wrong.  Whether a long illness of a lot of miles on his tyres is another thing.  
Speaking of miles and tyres, Farrell was slow and even ponderous at times.  I said it after the last game, just watch him.  It's now a worry because like that he can get seriously hurt.  
JvP was pulled off almost as a mercy to the player, Slade as a mercy to the team.  
Shame about Ollie Lawrence:  We find a back who knows how to run forward and the Rugby gods curse him.  
Not getting too much into the mediocrity of the bench.  However, needs to be said, it's always hard to compare players doing it in garbage time near the end to the players who start a match.  But this was so bad, so quick.

Chessum is out. Martin comes in.

Really?
Interesting

No 7&1/2 wrote:Chessum is out. Martin comes in.

Who did Chessum have to bribe?

Ankle injury for Chessum in training apparently. Sounds like a nasty one judging by some reports. A real shame as he's been a bright spot in the tournament.

I'd ere towards giving players who haven't had a shot yet a go. Walker, Ribbans, Isiekwe and Arundell have been around the squad without real game time. Cole and Mitchell as starters. Reward Curry for that decent showing in a s*** storm on Saturday. Try Manu for some physicality. Marchant to see what he's learned defensively from R1. A return for Ford on the bench to see what he can offer in this game plan.

1.Genge 2.Walker 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Ribbans 6.Isiekwe 7.Curry 8.Ludlam
9.Mitchell 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Tuilagi 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.George 17.Rodd 18.Sinckler 19.Martin 20.Willis 21.JvP 22.Ford 23.Malins

With so many potential players to return and likely some new ones coming in over the summer during the long pre-RWC camps I'm expecting big changes there anyway after this tournament. As such the lack of continuity with that sort of 23 doesn't concern me as much after the evisceration just seen.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Chessum is out. Martin comes in.

Chessum was a doubt for last weekend earlier in the week. Some rumours George Martin spent a bit of time in camp unofficially then and hence was on the bench for Tigers Vs Glaws.

Hopefully the injury to Chessum isn't as bad as KC fears.

George Martin has been in very good form these last couple of months. Be interesting to see if Borthwick uses him and in what role. Last season Leinster really did a number on Tigers in the first half of a European Game and Borthwick subbed Reffell for Martin at the break. Martin did a phenomenal marking job on the big Leinster ball carriers (Doris in particular) in that second half and the Leinster momentum ground to a halt. Unfortunately Tigers didn't have enough of an edge in attack to break the Dublin boys down but Martin's inclusion does make me wonder whether Borthwick is thinking of something similar again.

king_carlos wrote:Willis extends with Toulouse. As the rules currently stand he'd be saying bye to his England career for the time being.

I'm really trying hard to hide my disappointment.....

I see two scenarios......1, The rules are being relaxed     2, Willis has came to the realisation he's a passenger at this level and is cashing out whilst he reputation is still somewhat intact

king_carlos wrote:Ankle injury for Chessum in training apparently. Sounds like a nasty one judging by some reports. A real shame as he's been a bright spot in the tournament.

I'd ere towards giving players who haven't had a shot yet a go. Walker, Ribbans, Isiekwe and Arundell have been around the squad without real game time. Cole and Mitchell as starters. Reward Curry for that decent showing in a s*** storm on Saturday. Try Manu for some physicality. Marchant to see what he's learned defensively from R1. A return for Ford on the bench to see what he can offer in this game plan.

1.Genge 2.Walker 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Ribbans 6.Isiekwe 7.Curry 8.Ludlam
9.Mitchell 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Tuilagi 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.George 17.Rodd 18.Sinckler 19.Martin 20.Willis 21.JvP 22.Ford 23.Malins

With so many potential players to return and likely some new ones coming in over the summer during the long pre-RWC camps I'm expecting big changes there anyway after this tournament. As such the lack of continuity with that sort of 23 doesn't concern me as much after the evisceration just seen.

Hexane only change 5 players from this squad for the world Cup though can't he KC? Then clean sweep after the WC...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Willis extends with Toulouse. As the rules currently stand he'd be saying bye to his England career for the time being.

I'm really trying hard to hide my disappointment.....

I see two scenarios......1, The rules are being relaxed     2, Willis has came to the realisation he's a passenger at this level and is cashing out whilst he reputation is still somewhat intact

The rules are already relaxed for former wasps and Worcester players. There was nothing to say that their next deal needed to be in England. And thank goodness for that. You see how much the Toulouse fans already rate him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Willis extends with Toulouse. As the rules currently stand he'd be saying bye to his England career for the time being.

I'm really trying hard to hide my disappointment.....

I see two scenarios......1, The rules are being relaxed     2, Willis has came to the realisation he's a passenger at this level and is cashing out whilst he reputation is still somewhat intact

The rules are already relaxed for former wasps and Worcester players. There was nothing to say that their next deal needed to be in England. And thank goodness for that. You see how much the Toulouse fans already rate him.

To be honest, I can see him being a big hit there as Toulouse have a giant pack....one of the biggest around. He doesn't have to get involved in too much of the grunt work/carrying which aren't his strong points and he can concentrate on the breakdown.

I mean that just shows you don't watch him much.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I mean that just shows you don't watch him much.

And I take it you tune into every Toulouse game.....

Shame about Chessum, one of the few bright sparks in an otherwise very dark 6N for England.

Looking on bright side, England can go into RWC with no pressure as literally no-one will expect them to win.

As for Saturday can't see anything other than 3 home wins.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I mean that just shows you don't watch him much.

And I take it you tune into every Toulouse game.....

No. But I don't envisage his game changing fundamentally simply by playing in France.

Ah i hope Chessum is not a long term injury. as said, hes been one of the few real bright spots.

If Martin gets to play, theres no pressure on him...probably be off the bench....just go out and smash things with and without the ball for 20 mins.

mountain man wrote:Shame about Chessum, one of the few bright sparks in an otherwise very dark 6N for England.

Looking on bright side, England can go into RWC with no pressure as literally no-one will expect them to win.

As for Saturday can't see anything other than 3 home wins.

You never know. It'd be a huge turnaround from last week but sport and all that.

Willis is available for the WC apparently.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Shame about Chessum, one of the few bright sparks in an otherwise very dark 6N for England.

Looking on bright side, England can go into RWC with no pressure as literally no-one will expect them to win.

As for Saturday can't see anything other than 3 home wins.

You never know. It'd be a huge turnaround from last week but sport and all that.

I dont expect a win at all...HOWEVER i expect a big reaction from some of these players. They're professional rugby players and good ones...who got absolutely embarrased on Saturday. If they dont react to that and genuinely try to show that they're peed off and that they're much better than that then they all need to be dropped after this game....

My concern is they may get so fired up to make an impact someone flies into a tackle, gets it wrong and gets a red card.
That is a distinct possibility. They need to show a reaction to a woeful performance but it must be controlled.

An opensides game can change drastically dependent on the pack around him.....there's many examples of this. You have your world class guys, like Pocock and Smith who played in relatively poor packs but still managed to have massive influence on games.

On the flip, you have someone like Steffon Armitage who played in that monstrous Toulon pack and looked an absolute world beater.....never looked as impressive for Irish.

Willis fits into the latter category, I think he'd be fantastic in a real dominant pack....but pretty much fades into the background when not on the front foot. We pretty much seen this during the 6N when he had his one good game against Italy.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:An opensides game can change drastically dependent on the pack around him.....there's many examples of this. You have your world class guys, like Pocock and Smith who played in relatively poor packs but still managed to have massive influence on games.

On the flip, you have someone like Steffon Armitage who played in that monstrous Toulon pack and looked an absolute world beater.....never looked as impressive for Irish.

Willis fits into the latter category, I think he'd be fantastic in a real dominant pack....but pretty much fades into the background when not on the front foot. We pretty much seen this during the 6N when he had his one good game against Italy.

Yeah that Wasps pack was formidable of course.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Shame about Chessum, one of the few bright sparks in an otherwise very dark 6N for England.

Looking on bright side, England can go into RWC with no pressure as literally no-one will expect them to win.

As for Saturday can't see anything other than 3 home wins.

You never know. It'd be a huge turnaround from last week but sport and all that.

I dont expect a win at all...HOWEVER i expect a big reaction from some of these players. They're professional rugby players and good ones...who got absolutely embarrased on Saturday. If they dont react to that and genuinely try to show that they're peed off and that they're much better than that then they all need to be dropped after this game....

Yeah. There were some silly mistakes which is one thing that can be eradicated. We really seemed surprised as to some.ofntge French tactics which is a bit surprising tbh. We can take a pretty good guess as to how the Irish will play on Saturday so hopefully a bit more prepared. The midfield defence is turning into a real issue, some big decisions on selection there again. Wouldn't be surprised to see Porter.

Tuilagi will be in I would think, if not starting he'll be on bench. I'd like to see Marchant at 13. Slade days are surely numbered for England. He's flattered to deceive for too long now.
Arundell starts on wing quite possibly instead of Malins. Watson gets another chance?

It's actually tricky to say who will be a definite starter, seeing as it'll be a 15 from same training squad most of team from France game will be in there but as to who deserves place is another matter.

Would make sense for Tuilagi to continue, but there was a positive contribution from Farrell as a second receiver. Given that Slade and Malins are there it's disappointing that they weren't as involved in that aspect especially when Smith is out of the game, if anything that's another thing that piles some pressure on them 2, but then do we go back to Farrell and Smith? Or is it going to back to a really simplistic kick the ball as long as possible and hope for mistakes/good defence? That would be a bit risky given how good Ireland are with the ball.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would make sense for Tuilagi to continue, but there was a positive contribution from Farrell as a second receiver. Given that Slade and Malins are there it's disappointing that they weren't as involved in that aspect especially when Smith is out of the game, if anything that's another thing that piles some pressure on them 2, but then do we go back to Farrell and Smith? Or is it going to back to a really simplistic kick the ball as long as possible and hope for mistakes/good defence? That would be a bit risky given how good Ireland are with the ball.

Hmm. He tried running the ball and did make some meters when in space. Slade was anonymous so you could claim he was an improvement, but no I don't want to see Farrell starting on Saturday.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would make sense for Tuilagi to continue, but there was a positive contribution from Farrell as a second receiver. Given that Slade and Malins are there it's disappointing that they weren't as involved in that aspect especially when Smith is out of the game, if anything that's another thing that piles some pressure on them 2, but then do we go back to Farrell and Smith? Or is it going to back to a really simplistic kick the ball as long as possible and hope for mistakes/good defence? That would be a bit risky given how good Ireland are with the ball.

Hmm. He tried running the ball and did make some meters when in space. Slade was anonymous so you could claim he was an improvement, but no I don't want to see Farrell starting on Saturday.

I mean on Saturday it's all relative!

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would make sense for Tuilagi to continue, but there was a positive contribution from Farrell as a second receiver. Given that Slade and Malins are there it's disappointing that they weren't as involved in that aspect especially when Smith is out of the game, if anything that's another thing that piles some pressure on them 2, but then do we go back to Farrell and Smith? Or is it going to back to a really simplistic kick the ball as long as possible and hope for mistakes/good defence? That would be a bit risky given how good Ireland are with the ball.

Hmm. He tried running the ball and did make some meters when in space. Slade was anonymous so you could claim he was an improvement, but no I don't want to see Farrell starting on Saturday.

I see no benefit to playing Farrell. Besides, as I have said, in my estimation - at the current moment at least - this is a tired player who is clearly slowing down. He looks both uncomfortable and needs rest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:An opensides game can change drastically dependent on the pack around him.....there's many examples of this. You have your world class guys, like Pocock and Smith who played in relatively poor packs but still managed to have massive influence on games.

On the flip, you have someone like Steffon Armitage who played in that monstrous Toulon pack and looked an absolute world beater.....never looked as impressive for Irish.

Willis fits into the latter category, I think he'd be fantastic in a real dominant pack....but pretty much fades into the background when not on the front foot. We pretty much seen this during the 6N when he had his one good game against Italy.

Yeah that Wasps pack was formidable of course.

Wasps had a very underrated pack, especially the back 5. The lock combo of Launchbury and Rowlands was one of the best in the league for a number of years....they used to get through a whole load of work.

Hopefully England line out on the wrong side of the pitch for the anthems to get the ball rolling with a bit of spice for this game

Collapse2005 wrote:Hopefully England line out on the wrong side of the pitch for the anthems to get the ball rolling with a bit of spice for this game

They will need to pull all the dirty tricks they can. But I think this Irish team would welcome it.

Collapse2005 wrote:Hopefully England line out on the wrong side of the pitch for the anthems to get the ball rolling with a bit of spice for this game

That was a team led by a 6'8 beast that could back up being tw&ts....this team cant!

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Ankle injury for Chessum in training apparently. Sounds like a nasty one judging by some reports. A real shame as he's been a bright spot in the tournament.

I'd ere towards giving players who haven't had a shot yet a go. Walker, Ribbans, Isiekwe and Arundell have been around the squad without real game time. Cole and Mitchell as starters. Reward Curry for that decent showing in a s*** storm on Saturday. Try Manu for some physicality. Marchant to see what he's learned defensively from R1. A return for Ford on the bench to see what he can offer in this game plan.

1.Genge 2.Walker 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Ribbans 6.Isiekwe 7.Curry 8.Ludlam
9.Mitchell 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Tuilagi 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.George 17.Rodd 18.Sinckler 19.Martin 20.Willis 21.JvP 22.Ford 23.Malins

With so many potential players to return and likely some new ones coming in over the summer during the long pre-RWC camps I'm expecting big changes there anyway after this tournament. As such the lack of continuity with that sort of 23 doesn't concern me as much after the evisceration just seen.

Hexane only change 5 players from this squad for the world Cup though can't he KC? Then clean sweep after the WC...

EPS squad restrictions won't be a thing for the world cup. It's a designated international window and the pre tournament training is all in the off season so there's no issue with player release. Borthwick will get to pick who he likes. The RFU and the clubs both need England to look good in rugby's biggest showpiece.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:An opensides game can change drastically dependent on the pack around him.....there's many examples of this. You have your world class guys, like Pocock and Smith who played in relatively poor packs but still managed to have massive influence on games.

On the flip, you have someone like Steffon Armitage who played in that monstrous Toulon pack and looked an absolute world beater.....never looked as impressive for Irish.

Willis fits into the latter category, I think he'd be fantastic in a real dominant pack....but pretty much fades into the background when not on the front foot. We pretty much seen this during the 6N when he had his one good game against Italy.

Yeah that Wasps pack was formidable of course.

Wasps had a very underrated pack, especially the back 5. The lock combo of Launchbury and Rowlands was one of the best in the league for a number of years....they used to get through a whole load of work.

Can't really see your view on Willis at all but hey that's your opinion. You are clearly very upset by the French defeat and are judging him from that. Willis is a cracking player and will continue to be highly rated. Toulouse don't sign dross.

Yoda wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:An opensides game can change drastically dependent on the pack around him.....there's many examples of this. You have your world class guys, like Pocock and Smith who played in relatively poor packs but still managed to have massive influence on games.

On the flip, you have someone like Steffon Armitage who played in that monstrous Toulon pack and looked an absolute world beater.....never looked as impressive for Irish.

Willis fits into the latter category, I think he'd be fantastic in a real dominant pack....but pretty much fades into the background when not on the front foot. We pretty much seen this during the 6N when he had his one good game against Italy.

Yeah that Wasps pack was formidable of course.

Wasps had a very underrated pack, especially the back 5. The lock combo of Launchbury and Rowlands was one of the best in the league for a number of years....they used to get through a whole load of work.

Can't really see your view on Willis at all but hey that's your opinion. You are clearly very upset by the French defeat and are judging him from that. Willis is a cracking player and will continue to be highly rated. Toulouse don't sign dross.

To be fair to Sarge hes said that all along about Willis...not just after France.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Ankle injury for Chessum in training apparently. Sounds like a nasty one judging by some reports. A real shame as he's been a bright spot in the tournament.

I'd ere towards giving players who haven't had a shot yet a go. Walker, Ribbans, Isiekwe and Arundell have been around the squad without real game time. Cole and Mitchell as starters. Reward Curry for that decent showing in a s*** storm on Saturday. Try Manu for some physicality. Marchant to see what he's learned defensively from R1. A return for Ford on the bench to see what he can offer in this game plan.

1.Genge 2.Walker 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Ribbans 6.Isiekwe 7.Curry 8.Ludlam
9.Mitchell 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Tuilagi 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.George 17.Rodd 18.Sinckler 19.Martin 20.Willis 21.JvP 22.Ford 23.Malins

With so many potential players to return and likely some new ones coming in over the summer during the long pre-RWC camps I'm expecting big changes there anyway after this tournament. As such the lack of continuity with that sort of 23 doesn't concern me as much after the evisceration just seen.

Hexane only change 5 players from this squad for the world Cup though can't he KC? Then clean sweep after the WC...

EPS squad restrictions won't be a thing for the world cup. It's a designated international window and the pre tournament training is all in the off season so there's no issue with player release. Borthwick will get to pick who he likes. The RFU and the clubs both need England to look good in rugby's biggest showpiece.

Evolution or revolution then.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Ankle injury for Chessum in training apparently. Sounds like a nasty one judging by some reports. A real shame as he's been a bright spot in the tournament.

I'd ere towards giving players who haven't had a shot yet a go. Walker, Ribbans, Isiekwe and Arundell have been around the squad without real game time. Cole and Mitchell as starters. Reward Curry for that decent showing in a s*** storm on Saturday. Try Manu for some physicality. Marchant to see what he's learned defensively from R1. A return for Ford on the bench to see what he can offer in this game plan.

1.Genge 2.Walker 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Ribbans 6.Isiekwe 7.Curry 8.Ludlam
9.Mitchell 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Tuilagi 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.George 17.Rodd 18.Sinckler 19.Martin 20.Willis 21.JvP 22.Ford 23.Malins

With so many potential players to return and likely some new ones coming in over the summer during the long pre-RWC camps I'm expecting big changes there anyway after this tournament. As such the lack of continuity with that sort of 23 doesn't concern me as much after the evisceration just seen.

Hexane only change 5 players from this squad for the world Cup though can't he KC? Then clean sweep after the WC...

EPS squad restrictions won't be a thing for the world cup. It's a designated international window and the pre tournament training is all in the off season so there's no issue with player release. Borthwick will get to pick who he likes. The RFU and the clubs both need England to look good in rugby's biggest showpiece.

Evolution or revolution then.

That might depend on the weekend's game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Ankle injury for Chessum in training apparently. Sounds like a nasty one judging by some reports. A real shame as he's been a bright spot in the tournament.

I'd ere towards giving players who haven't had a shot yet a go. Walker, Ribbans, Isiekwe and Arundell have been around the squad without real game time. Cole and Mitchell as starters. Reward Curry for that decent showing in a s*** storm on Saturday. Try Manu for some physicality. Marchant to see what he's learned defensively from R1. A return for Ford on the bench to see what he can offer in this game plan.

1.Genge 2.Walker 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Ribbans 6.Isiekwe 7.Curry 8.Ludlam
9.Mitchell 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Tuilagi 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.George 17.Rodd 18.Sinckler 19.Martin 20.Willis 21.JvP 22.Ford 23.Malins

With so many potential players to return and likely some new ones coming in over the summer during the long pre-RWC camps I'm expecting big changes there anyway after this tournament. As such the lack of continuity with that sort of 23 doesn't concern me as much after the evisceration just seen.

Hexane only change 5 players from this squad for the world Cup though can't he KC? Then clean sweep after the WC...

EPS squad restrictions won't be a thing for the world cup. It's a designated international window and the pre tournament training is all in the off season so there's no issue with player release. Borthwick will get to pick who he likes. The RFU and the clubs both need England to look good in rugby's biggest showpiece.

Not really sure how many players not currently in the extended training squad who would be picked over some of the incumbents.  There are always a few but I think we already know 90%+ of the cast of characters.  So, for the Ireland game let's see who can suck it up and turn it on....

It's tough for some of the young'uns, like Arundell, for instance, to hit out and make a pitch for the RWC roster against Ireland.  But, that is life in pro sport.  We need to see if he is the goods, as we hope, or just a show pony who nails it in garbage time.  This should be his time.    
I would say the same for Ford, though his situation is obviously different.  We need to know if he can still do it at the top level.  He is older, coming off significant injury, and has played a lot of Rugby in his career.  If he can't, England might be screwed.  To me, he has to start this game if healthy.  Otherwise, England will have only two out halves and neither are showing it at the needed level.
Jack Willis has to play because England will be fighting against stronger teams in the RWC and he has to demonstrate that he can find a way to hold back the Irish (and then everyone else's) hordes.  
Ben Curry had one OK game in the French beatdown after a couple of stinkers.  What else will we learn if he plays?  
Freeman is another who needs to show he has it or he doesn't.  He is a better player than Malins.
McGuigan.  Until the French Mistake, Borthwick played a visibly tired Jamie George too long and clearly doesn't trust Jack Walker.  Even when LCD comes back - assuming close to his previous level - it's not good to have only two hookers who are trusted.  Give the boy some meaningful time off the bench.  
Centres.  England are a mess.  Bring back Greenwood and Tindall.

Theres a number of players who can come in...and really improve the squad...
And a number who can be released and improve the squad.

From Now to the World Cup...i cant see a massive change...maybe as we all agree now finally...a few "meatheads" might come in.

Also we can hope Dan Kelly gets fit and stays fit...big call but id throw him in if he is. Hes a good young 12 who we can develop going forward so why not give him the World Cup experience.

I thought Eddie made a massive mistake taking Maro to Aus last summer. The poor guy had been non-stop at the highest level (Lions the previous summer) with his only breaks being injuries. I always thought this would come back to haunt us. Saracens will flog him until the end of the season so no chance of restoring him to 100% mentally and physically before the RWC.

The whole physicality and winning the gain line is far more about attitude on the day. England turned over Ireland in Dublin before the 2019 RWC and Ireland were defending GS champions and had beaten the All blacks in the autumn. But we blasted them that day.
Ireland Team Line-up 2019
Forwards
1 Cian Healy
2 Rory Best (Captain)
3 Tadhg Furlong
4 Devin Toner
5 James Ryan
6 Peter O’Mahony
7 Josh van der Flier
8 CJ Stander
Backs
9 Conor Murray
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Jacob Stockdale
12 Bundee Aki
13 Garry Ringrose
14 Keith Earls
15 Robbie Henshaw
Replacements
16 Sean Cronin
17 David Kilcoyne
18 Andrew Porter
19 Quinn Roux
20 Sean O’Brien
21 John Cooney
22 Joey Carbery
23 Jordan Larmour
England Team Line-up
Forwards
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Kyle Sinckler
4 Maro Itoje
5 George Kruis
6 Mark Wilson
7 Tom Curry
8 Billy Vunipola
Backs
9 Ben Youngs
10 Owen Farrell (Captain)
11 Jack Nowell
12 Manu Tuiagi
13 Henry Slade
14 Jonny May
15 Elliot Daly
Replacements
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie
17 Ellis Genge
18 Harry Williams
19 Courtney Lawes
20 Nathan Hughes
21 Dan Robson
22 George Ford
23 Chris Ashton

So basically several players remain the same in both teams. Ours have lost form and confidence whereas Ireland's have improved beyond all recognition. Is that down to Ireland's better set up and control of players? Better coaching? Maybe both? I don't think we can summon another great performance from our boys as they all appear spent.

For the RWC we do need some fresh players and energy....VPR, Launchbury, Curry & Underhill, Marler, Arundell etc. Post RWC we really need a sensible rebuilding job.

If we're talking players that could come into the squad that currently aren't involved.

1. VRR, Marler
2. Blamire, McGuigan
6. T Hill
8. Mercer, T Willis
9. Quirke
12. Kelly, S Atkinson
14. Cokanasiga, Ramm
15. Carpenter

hugehandoff wrote:I don't think we can summon another great performance from our boys as they all appear spent.

That's exactly how most of them appeared to varying degrees.  For me, Farrell is the most glaring example. But amongst regular starters Sinckler, George, Itoje, Dombrandt, JvP, Slade, maybe Watson.  And even if some players were generally OK against France like Steward, for instance, surrounded by a team looking tired, hurt, or slow, it brings them down a few levels as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:If we're talking players that could come into the squad that currently aren't involved.

1. VRR, Marler
2. Blamire, McGuigan
6. T Hill
8. Mercer, T Willis
9. Quirke
12. Kelly, S Atkinson
14. Cokanasiga, Ramm
15. Carpenter

Sam whats your views on Thorley at Gloucester?

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:If we're talking players that could come into the squad that currently aren't involved.

1. VRR, Marler
2. Blamire, McGuigan
6. T Hill
8. Mercer, T Willis
9. Quirke
12. Kelly, S Atkinson
14. Cokanasiga, Ramm
15. Carpenter

Sam whats your views on Thorley at Gloucester?

He needs to refind his best form and ideally develop more of a kicking game. He's strong and quick but injuries have left him a bit behind some of the others.

Ramm (poaching from the Aussies here) and Carpenter are both bang in form and have great all round skillsets. Cokanasiga is a unique talent and I'd hope he'd at least make the initial larger RWC squad because I think working with one of the best S&C guys in the business might really allow him to offer a lot more.