Ireland v England 18&19 March - Grand Slam opportunities

First topic message reminder :

Ireland are going for Grand Slam wins on Saturday and Sunday this weekend with the seniors and U20s lining out in Dublin and Cork to face England.

After the slew of injuries in the Scotland, Ireland were looking at being down a good few players for their final match.

Bealham, Beirne, Henderson, McCarthy and Ringrose are all definitely out of the reckoning.  Rónan Kelleher may join them.   Sheehan and Doris might recover sufficiently from their knocks to be named in the squad.

Team named at 3.30pm Irish time.  

Porter, Sheehan, Furlong, Ryan, Baird, O'Mahony, Van der Flier, Doris
Gibson-Park, Sexton, Lowe, Aki, Henshaw, Hansen, Keenan
R: Herring, Healy, O'Toole, Treadwell, Conan, Murray, Byrne, O'Brien

England looking to change up things from their 23 last Saturday with Owen Farrell starting at 10, alongside Manu Tuilagi in midfield.  

Genge, George, Kyle Sinckler, Itoje, Ribbans, Ludlam, Willis, Dombrandt
Steward, Watson, Slade, Tuilagi. Arundell, Farrell, van Poortvliet
R: Walker, Vunipola, Cole, Isiekwe, Curry, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant.

Collapse2005 wrote:England got the 50/50 call there, they also got away with being offside on numerous occasions. The ref in general was quite fair, it was a shame about the red but in general I do think England have work to do on their discipline. Blaming the ref isn’t going to fix that and Borthwick and Farrell to their credit made that point themselves in their post match interview. I think they both will drive England forward from here on in.

Well no. It wasn't close to a 50 50 call as I've explained.

Peyper I can live with, he's not as bad as Ben O'Keefe, but anyone that can't see Jonker has a bias against England (unconscious or otherwise) is just ignoring the clear evidence from previous history ...

You see a history to fit your own bias heaf

Well so did the refs that have previously overruled him then ...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:England got the 50/50 call there, they also got away with being offside on numerous occasions. The ref in general was quite fair, it was a shame about the red but in general I do think England have work to do on their discipline. Blaming the ref isn’t going to fix that and Borthwick and Farrell to their credit made that point themselves in their post match interview. I think they both will drive England forward from here on in.

Well no. It wasn't close to a 50 50 call as I've explained.

Everyone is going to see the world from their own perspective. It won’t change anything really as England failed to rise to the challenge in front of them. The Ireland team has a no excuses policy where they commit to fronting up to whatever is thrown at them right or wrong. England too to their credit clearly had a plan for a red card scenario and executed it well too but they didn’t have enough quality to get the job done.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:England got the 50/50 call there, they also got away with being offside on numerous occasions. The ref in general was quite fair, it was a shame about the red but in general I do think England have work to do on their discipline. Blaming the ref isn’t going to fix that and Borthwick and Farrell to their credit made that point themselves in their post match interview. I think they both will drive England forward from here on in.

Well no. It wasn't close to a 50 50 call as I've explained.

Everyone is going to see the world from their own perspective. It won’t change anything really as England failed to rise to the challenge in front of them. The Ireland team has a no excuses policy where they commit to fronting up to whatever is thrown at them right or wrong. England too to their credit clearly had a plan for a red card scenario and executed it well too but they didn’t have enough quality to get the job done.

You don't have to go from any perspective just apply the laws. Captains are allowed to speak to the ref so that draws aline under that.

You're now off on a tangent as your initial gotcha moment of a pen try was ruled out straight away.

I disagree, I also disagree that England were overly unlucky with the ref. I think they will be disappointed with their discipline and Borthwick and Farrell pretty much confirmed that.

England have the chance to spoil another Ireland grand slam in the under 20s on now. Good start for Ireland, try after 3 minutes.

Ignoring the red card, as we'll never agree on that one, I'm still left feeling unlucky about quite a few other decisions (or mostly non-decisions) eg:

Why was Genge (or George?) done for a tackle without the ball when GP passed the ball then ran into him?

Why was there no pen for a clear tackle around Watson's neck on the try line?

Why was Aki not pinged for at least one seatbelt tackle?

Why wasn't Ryan's clear shoulder to the face of Ludlam even looked at?

Ireland just narrowly miss another cracking try. 5-0 so far.

England, hit back. Good score under the sticks!

Collapse2005 wrote:I disagree, I also disagree that England were overly unlucky with the ref. I think they will be disappointed with their discipline and Borthwick and Farrell pretty much confirmed that.

Nothing to disagree with. In this instance the ref was correct.

England really picking up the pace now. Good game so far.

Some quality names in the England side. Chandler Cunningham-South, Monty Bradbury, Cassius Cleves….

Cleaves and C-S are real ones to watch too.

Another odd pen. Hands on the floor. They win it. England win it back and a pen. Odd.

Good game so far, both teams going for it.

Shame the ref is allowing so many people jackal with hands on the floor.

https://twitter.com/neilfissler/status/1637440378319122434?s=19

formerly known as Sam wrote:https://twitter.com/neilfissler/status/1637440378319122434?s=19

It never fails to surprise me that so many prominent rugby commentators and media figures aren't on top of the laws to begin with so that the viewers are given the correct info straight away.

carpet baboon wrote:Conspiracy here,
conspiracy there,
If not for conspiracies
England would win all the silverware

Exactly! So you know about them too?

Heaf wrote:Ignoring the red card, as we'll never agree on that one, I'm still left feeling unlucky about quite a few other decisions (or mostly non-decisions) eg:

Why was Genge (or George?) done for a tackle without the ball when GP passed the ball then ran into him?

Why was there no pen for a clear tackle around Watson's neck on the try line?

Why was Aki not pinged for at least one seatbelt tackle?

Why wasn't Ryan's clear shoulder to the face of Ludlam even looked at?

You can also find lots of possible penalties against ireland missed as well if you have two eyes open

Constant offside, lying around in rucks, late hits, etc etc

Refs will allways miss stuff. its such a complex game and as a fan we tend only to see the ones that would have favoured us

Having said that at lest one seatbelt tackle on an england player was missed

That's a pen try

Oh. No there's cover.

doctor_grey wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Conspiracy here,
conspiracy there,
If not for conspiracies
England would win all the silverware

Exactly!  So you know about them too?  

There was the conspiracy about Wayne Barnes having it in for Ireland and always giving the opposition calls and missing ones for us.

Turns out he wasn't biased at all we just didn't listen to him.
Who would have guessed???

Another red for England, mad for red cards.

They've changed the laws on how people land then.

Ireland allowed to take out c-s who isn't part of the ruck. Free for all now.

Cant see England preventing Irelands 2nd grand slam now, mighty stuff from the under 20s.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They've changed the laws on how people land then.

Yes - its only guidence not laws but landing on front and arms should be yellow I thought. Horrible tackle tho = do things like that you are always at risk

In defence of the young man I don't think he meant it. Unlike Willis yesterday who was lucky not to see red for his tip in my opinion.

Brilliant character from the England lads to come back with 4 minutes to play.

Three titles in four years for the under 20s. Impressive stuff Richie Murphy.

edit - wrong thread

TJ wrote:

Heaf wrote:Ignoring the red card, as we'll never agree on that one, I'm still left feeling unlucky about quite a few other decisions (or mostly non-decisions) eg:

Why was Genge (or George?) done for a tackle without the ball when GP passed the ball then ran into him?

Why was there no pen for a clear tackle around Watson's neck on the try line?

Why was Aki not pinged for at least one seatbelt tackle?

Why wasn't Ryan's clear shoulder to the face of Ludlam even looked at?

You can also find lots of possible penalties against ireland missed as well if you have two eyes open

Constant offside, lying around in rucks, late hits, etc etc

Refs will allways miss stuff.  its such a complex game and as a fan we tend only to see the ones that would have favoured us

Having said that at lest one seatbelt tackle on an england player was missed

Quite probably - however 2 of those lead to tries and 3 of them were clear foul play that should have been picked up by the TMO - and the shoulder to face was literally right in front of the ref ...

I am pretty sure I saw a Farrell shoulder charge as well - maybe the "offside" tackle? England were lucky to get away with that one. Itoje ( was it?) had barely got level with Farrell to put him onside but I haven't looked at it in detail. So that one was a penalty try not given ( perhaps depending what side a fan you are)

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:https://twitter.com/neilfissler/status/1637440378319122434?s=19

It never fails to surprise me that so many prominent rugby commentators and media figures aren't on top of the laws to begin with so that the viewers are given the correct info straight away.

Nevermind the media figures I'd just like the officials to read up on them as well.

I'm less fussed about unusual law interpretations for general penalties as players have chance to adapt, as long as it's consistent I don't mind so much. Huge calls like red cards in tight games just have to be right though.

As they were in this match? Thats why there is such a detailed algorithm to work thru to try to get consistency and to try to make it fact based not opinion

TJ wrote:As they were in this match?  Thats why there is such a detailed algorithm to work thru to try to get consistency and to try to make it fact based not opinion

Well England would always be screwed if it was your opinion.

Thought the Aki hit on Ludlum at  a ruck was worse than this one but this one looks pretty clear cut in front of the ref.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/100-ireland-star-could-be-in-trouble-for-horror-hit-on-lewis-ludlam/

England generally are in and around the top 4/5 teams in the world, despite their record with SH refs, which isn't a conspiracy despite the attempted weak ridicule by some on here - the trend is there and whilst I wouldn't expect England to win every game in this scenario, it is a fact that they don't win pretty much any outside Twickenham and sometimes there too.

TJ wrote:I am pretty sure I saw a Farrell shoulder charge as well - maybe the "offside" tackle?  England were lucky to get away with that one.  Itoje ( was it?) had barely got level with Farrell to put him onside but I haven't looked at it in detail.  So that one was a penalty try not given ( perhaps depending what side a fan you are)

Even if Farrell hadn't been put onside it wouldn't have been a PT thought as Itoje was there to make the tackle ...

good point!

TJ wrote:As they were in this match?  Thats why there is such a detailed algorithm to work thru to try to get consistency and to try to make it fact based not opinion

It's not working though as we still see huge inconsistencies week in week out ...

TJ wrote:I am pretty sure I saw a Farrell shoulder charge as well - maybe the "offside" tackle?  England were lucky to get away with that one.  Itoje ( was it?) had barely got level with Farrell to put him onside but I haven't looked at it in detail.  So that one was a penalty try not given ( perhaps depending what side a fan you are)

Best not to guess and go look. It wasn't a pen try.

TJ wrote:As they were in this match?  Thats why there is such a detailed algorithm to work thru to try to get consistency and to try to make it fact based not opinion

This is a good example. You keep going back to the algorithm as you call it but ignore the fact its a rugby incident so this doesn't apply.

Thats an opinion not a fact.

TJ wrote:Thats an opinion not a fact.

Just one based on fact.

TJ wrote:Thats an opinion not a fact.

https://twitter.com/neilfissler/status/1637440378319122434?s=19

No there it is in the laws

A good point made separately about these incidents is that we're also seeing inconsistent reviews, or tmo simply not able to pick up red card incidents in real time. Seemingly a lot of time they're only going back and looking when a player does pick up an injury or has to have an hia. There's a bit of complaining going on with play acting from penaud Williams Hogg etc but what incentive is there to get up and get on when the perpetrator will escape sanction if he's managed not to hurt someone? Ludlam if he'd stayed down holding his face would have got Ireland down to 14.

Well when I woke up today Ireland had still won a grand slam. However, in this alternate reality they probably wouldnt have.

https://twitter.com/StevenPConnolly/status/1637530306629578757?t=q3xZRf9djKktzT4F444Awg&s=08