England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

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Continued......

I was actually being very tongue in cheek about Obatoyinbo but I actually I don't see why SB wouldnt be interested in seeing what a player of his ability can do. He's been a revelation for us ...and has all the skills you'd want at 15...

I'd prefer Daly to Slade at 13 in that role linking with the outer backs now if they continue with Lawrence or Manu at 12. For all the talk of his defence he's been very good defensively at 13, wing and fullback for Sarries. His start at 13 in the 2022 Six Nations was a fantastic defensive showing as well to be fair.

I'd sooner we went for Kelly at 12 if he's fit and Lawrence at 13...then if we need a playmaker have Daly on the wing.

Lots of power from Murley and big Joe this weekend. Would have made a difference in six nations I reckon.

It is concerning that we have little idea what our best squad is. SB has to decide early what our DNA is and select horses for courses. Priority for me is centres, wing and replacement front row. Second row we are stocked nicely now and back row is less of a priority as the others.

Several England qualified wings had good games on weekend. Murley, Thorley, Joe C and Radwan all scored some good tries.

Malins was excellent as well for Saracens against Quins, his cover tackle to stop David was exceptional pace and determination.

There's talent out there at least.

I reckon Borthwick knows who he'd like to get on the pitch for the world cup but there is still the chance for performances to turn his head; and that's no bad thing. The chances of his squad/team ticking the boxes of the majority of fans is not great though as with the earlier point there are shed loads of options.

I thought Pearson was superb at the weekend, in fact he seems to play very well every time I watch him. I appreciate that there is a lot of competition in the back-row, but he could possibly be a bolter for the World Cup squad? Seems a very dynamic player. I’m not sure who he would replace, but you could stake your life on somebody being injured between now and then (probably poor old Baggins).

Cumbrian wrote:I thought Pearson was superb at the weekend, in fact he seems to play very well every time I watch him.  I appreciate that there is a lot of competition in the back-row, but he could possibly be a bolter for the World Cup squad?  Seems a very dynamic player.  I’m not sure who he would replace, but you could stake your life on somebody being injured between now and then (probably poor old Baggins).

I do wonder if we could switch him across to 6 or TCurry to 6 and play them as a pair. They are both such strong all rounders that they could cause havoc in tandem. Not sure Pearson/JWillis would work as Willis hasn't shown his carrying game on the international stage. Ludlam the man most likely to be in the 20 shirt give his versatility.

Obano was pretty impressive yesterday bar the yellow/red.

England have a free hit at the world cup and also on the easy side of the draw...should be minimum of Semi Finals without even breaking sweat whilst the favorites all knock each other out on the other side of the draw.

Free hit. What if we fail to get out of the group?

Then we blame Eddie Jones and say the team was too far gone to turn around in time.

Easy

No 7&1/2 wrote:Free hit. What if we fail to get out of the group?

No excuses. If England cannot get out of group then don't deserve to progress. Simple.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Free hit. What if we fail to get out of the group?

No excuses. If England cannot get out of group then don't deserve to progress. Simple.

I meant to the coaches. I did laugh at Geordies response but I'm not sure they are kept on.

In all seriousness...Borthwick and his coaches turned the scrum and lineout from some of the worst performing internationally to the best in the 6n...in the space of 4 games...so surely picking his own squad and having more time and a few more games (albeit only 3 warm up games) he should be able to get us out of the group.

Geordie wrote:In all seriousness...Borthwick and his coaches turned the scrum and lineout from some of the worst performing internationally to the best in the 6n...in the space of 4 games...so surely picking his own squad and having more time and a few more games (albeit only 3 warm up games) he should be able to get us out of the group.

Scrum was miles better. Was massively surprised to hear that that was just not trained in the latter part of Jones reign....wasn't Proudfoot only the scrum coach?

Lineout, not sure how it's defined but think there's plenty of work to do on that still in terms of rolling maul.

But it was more to the point that I do think he has leeway but I'd be surprised had the rfu not learnt their lesson and put some performance related cut off in.....wtf am I saying of course they won't have!

Cumbrian wrote:I thought Pearson was superb at the weekend, in fact he seems to play very well every time I watch him.  I appreciate that there is a lot of competition in the back-row, but he could possibly be a bolter for the World Cup squad?  Seems a very dynamic player.  I’m not sure who he would replace, but you could stake your life on somebody being injured between now and then (probably poor old Baggins).

I really rate Pearson. I was sceptical when he was plucked from obscurity by Jones but to fair I'm really seeing it now. He's a terrific carrier both in traffic and as a link or support man. Which is different to most our opensides who's strengths are in different areas of defence. His tackling and breakdown work are still strong though.

If Underhill can't get fit then I really like the idea of Curry and Pearson on the flanks as Sam says.

Number 8 remains a big issue. I was pleased to see that there's been contact between Billy and Borthwick though. Billy's performance this weekend was standout to be fair. But there in lies the issue with the Prem being a lower standard now. We've repeatedly seen players in the last few years dropped after looking on their last legs internationally only to look comfortably above the rest with a run of Prem games.

I'm far from convinced that Billy can have the same impact in internationals. But if he keeps performing like that, given the dearth of other options I think it would be well worth having him in the long pre-RWC training camps, get his conditioning as good as possible, then see what he can do in the warmups. I'd do the same with Mercer too I think. Let them battle it out.

Barbeary's knee injury wasn't as serious as first thought thankfully. Still required surgery but it wasn't a rupture from van Graan's reports. They're not expecting him back before the season's end but it shouldn't long after for full training apparently.

RWC's are such a different proposition as the coaches and players get so long in camp beforehand. So it does open up the possibility of players who haven't yet featured or who have struggled with injury suddenly getting that good run of fitness and form heading into the tournament.

Tigers are apparently looking for an injury dispensation second row. If it's Kruis coming out of retirement then I'm going to lose my f***ing mind like a child seeing John Cena arrive as the final Royal Rumble entrant. The fact that a set-piece lock makes me feel that way is probably quite sad.

what about a power back line with Manu 12, Lawrence at 13 and Cockanasiga at 11 complimented by Watson and Steward? As England seem obsessed with power why not go the whole hog? Might be interesting seeing the opposition turn them with kicks behind, but if they get on the front foot it would be fun.

Take your pick for Wing.....there's stand out performances all over the shop...

Is Mercer available for the warm ups?

king_carlos wrote:Tigers are apparently looking for an injury dispensation second row. If it's Kruis coming out of retirement then I'm going to lose my f***ing mind like a child seeing John Cena arrive as the final Royal Rumble entrant. The fact that a set-piece lock makes me feel that way is probably quite sad.

Heard this earlier ...I take it they want experience..rather than go for Chessum Jr or Carmichael?

Geordie wrote:Is Mercer available for the warm ups?

As soon as the French season ends I'd presume.

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Tigers are apparently looking for an injury dispensation second row. If it's Kruis coming out of retirement then I'm going to lose my f***ing mind like a child seeing John Cena arrive as the final Royal Rumble entrant. The fact that a set-piece lock makes me feel that way is probably quite sad.

Heard this earlier  ...I take it they want experience..rather than go for Chessum Jr or Carmichael?

Chessum and Green already out long term. Wells might have a knock too. Think just looking for immediate quality basically. If it were a squad signing I wouldn't be interested but if they can add a genuinely excellent second row for upcoming KO games then definitely for me. Kruis is my pipe dream.

Ah I didn't realise Green and possibly Wells were out aswell. Makes sense then.

king_carlos wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I thought Pearson was superb at the weekend, in fact he seems to play very well every time I watch him.  I appreciate that there is a lot of competition in the back-row, but he could possibly be a bolter for the World Cup squad?  Seems a very dynamic player.  I’m not sure who he would replace, but you could stake your life on somebody being injured between now and then (probably poor old Baggins).

I really rate Pearson. I was sceptical when he was plucked from obscurity by Jones but to fair I'm really seeing it now. He's a terrific carrier both in traffic and as a link or support man. Which is different to most our opensides who's strengths are in different areas of defence. His tackling and breakdown work are still strong though.

If Underhill can't get fit then I really like the idea of Curry and Pearson on the flanks as Sam says.

Number 8 remains a big issue. I was pleased to see that there's been contact between Billy and Borthwick though. Billy's performance this weekend was standout to be fair. But there in lies the issue with the Prem being a lower standard now. We've repeatedly seen players in the last few years dropped after looking on their last legs internationally only to look comfortably above the rest with a run of Prem games.

I'm far from convinced that Billy can have the same impact in internationals. But if he keeps performing like that, given the dearth of other options I think it would be well worth having him in the long pre-RWC training camps, get his conditioning as good as possible, then see what he can do in the warmups. I'd do the same with Mercer too I think. Let them battle it out.

Barbeary's knee injury wasn't as serious as first thought thankfully. Still required surgery but it wasn't a rupture from van Graan's reports. They're not expecting him back before the season's end but it shouldn't long after for full training apparently.

RWC's are such a different proposition as the coaches and players get so long in camp beforehand. So it does open up the possibility of players who haven't yet featured or who have struggled with injury suddenly getting that good run of fitness and form heading into the tournament.

Totally agree on Pearson, he looks to have a great all round skill set and really should force his way in soon.

You can see a good base of options forming:

4. Ribbans/Martin
5. Itoje/Chessum
6. Lawes/Pearson
7. Curry/Underhill

And then there's Underhill, Hill, Barbeary and I guess Willis too, waiting in the wings. 8 obviously still has question marks......I wouldn't be adverse to Billy over Dombrandt and more athletic option in Mercer perhaps.

Move Ted Hill to 8...problem solved...

More head scratching after that performance Willis turned in for me!

Surely if you're looking for carriers it's Hill, and Earl as flankers? Not as if either lack work rate.

6 Willis
7 Curry / Pearson / Underhill
8 Ted HIll

There you go...has the lot.

Underhill too many injuries plus several worrying concussions. For his long term health he'd be better off retiring from playing.
From England point of view at least there are plenty viable optons for flankers if not number 8. Same with wings/15, options available.

What we need are centres, specially inside centre. Oh and front row....

mountain man wrote:Underhill too many injuries plus several worrying concussions. For his long term health he'd be better off retiring from playing.
From England point of view at least there are plenty viable optons for flankers if not number 8. Same with wings/15, options available.

What we need are centres, specially inside centre. Oh and front row....

Its like Dejavu....

Can't help thinking that we won't be seeing Underhill for much longer. I guess its all a byproduct of the way in which he plays, but the injuries must be a worry

Yeah its a shame but i think you might be right about Underhill.

Disappointing for Underhill but he's still younger than Willis. I would say he has it in his locker to put in a bigger performance than any other backrow option we have.......some of performances against NZ were some of the best I've seen for years. A top top player when on the park.

Age isnt really in the conversation though when hes had as many head issues as Sam has Sgt.

Whilst England are always good at age grade, and Wales usually meh, the 62-7 triumph over Wales by the U18s should have alarm bells ringing. On the bright side, I'm sure that Toby Cousins' real father is AWJ so that would make another one Wales eligible.

mikey_dragon wrote:Whilst England are always good at age grade, and Wales usually meh, the 62-7 triumph over Wales by the U18s should have alarm bells ringing. On the bright side, I'm sure that Toby Cousins' real father is AWJ so that would make another one Wales eligible.

Hah! Slightly alarmed to discover that two of the kids in this year's U18 championship are former schoolmates of Poorfour Jr. It's been obvious for a while that they were heading that way but it's still a bit of a shock to see it for real.

Well step 1 is completed. Brown signs Leicester extension. Step 2, Steward moves to 12.

Geordie wrote:Move Ted Hill to 8...problem solved...

I've never quite seen Hill at 8. His strengths are largely defensive being the reason. He's a good carrier but I tend to think his physicality shows more in defence. He's not got the offloading game of someone like Mercer either.

The main reason I think it's frequently mentioned is purely because he's big!

Hes "big" and powerful KC (he wins collisions)...some thing we have missed. Hence why im a broken down record player about him.

Personally i want him in at 6...simple as that but if we're insistent on putting 6'2 alrounder in on the flanks (Pearson and Curry) then i suggested him at 8.

A back 5 of
4 Itoje
5 Chessum
6 Pearson
7 Curry
8 Mercer

Might have alot but is still missing some real brute power to win collisions offensively..ie knocking people back in defence and breaking the gainline consistentyly in attack. Only really Pearson has that, but not to the extent of Underhill or Ted HIll.

Its also why im very glad to see George Martins switch to lock working so well...and genuinely hope he continues to improve.

Athletisicm and skills are essential these days...but you still need some raw power...again which i have harped on about for years under Jones and bored you all to death.

I haven't seen Ted Hill play in a while, what is he like in the line-out? I'd assume he must at least be partly effective there (given that he has flirted with playing in the second-row in the past).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well step 1 is completed. Brown signs Leicester extension. Step 2, Steward moves to 12.

You joke but Steward and Potter mixed and matched between 13 and the wing at the weekend after Scott went off injured. Tigers are running short of fit centres so we could see one of Steward or Potter at centre on the weekend. Unsure if Gopperth can keep playing game after game as well, he might have to be rested at some point.

Cumbrian wrote:I haven't seen Ted Hill play in a while, what is he like in the line-out? I'd assume he must at least be partly effective there (given that he has flirted with playing in the second-row in the past).

He jumps but no more of a strength than say Ludlam from what I've seen. The lock thing was a touch overblown IMO. From memory he covered one game there for Worcester during an injury crisis and IIRC actually reverted to the back row in that game to cover injuries. Then covered lock from the bench once for England when their locks were so depleted through injury and Lions callups that McNally and Wells were capped.

Geordie wrote:Hes "big" and powerful KC (he wins collisions)...some thing we have missed. Hence why im a broken down record player about him.

Absolutely agree on players who can dominate contact. I think the Six Nations showed that players who can do that are worth giving a shot to even if weaker in other areas. I just think Hill is a 6 rather than an 8.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well step 1 is completed. Brown signs Leicester extension. Step 2, Steward moves to 12.

You joke but Steward and Potter mixed and matched between 13 and the wing at the weekend after Scott went off injured. Tigers are running short of fit centres so we could see one of Steward or Potter at centre on the weekend. Unsure if Gopperth can keep playing game after game as well, he might have to be rested at some point.

It's been brought up before. While I see it as crazy for England to try him at 12 o would love to see Leicester try it for us. Stuart Barnes has been banging the Steward's a midfielder for about 9 months.

king_carlos wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I haven't seen Ted Hill play in a while, what is he like in the line-out? I'd assume he must at least be partly effective there (given that he has flirted with playing in the second-row in the past).

He jumps but no more of a strength than say Ludlam from what I've seen. The lock thing was a touch overblown IMO. From memory he covered one game there for Worcester during an injury crisis and IIRC actually reverted to the back row in that game to cover injuries. Then covered lock from the bench once for England when their locks were so depleted through injury and Lions callups that McNally and Wells were capped.

Geordie wrote:Hes "big" and powerful KC (he wins collisions)...some thing we have missed. Hence why im a broken down record player about him.

Absolutely agree on players who can dominate contact. I think the Six Nations showed that players who can do that are worth giving a shot to even if weaker in other areas. I just think Hill is a 6 rather than an 8.

And we are in full agreance...I just visualise a role similar to Hsskells on the Australia tour. Just hit things very hard and fast both in attack and defence over and over again...unsettling the opposition at every opportunity. Let others in the team do the more skilled work....

Maybe in tandem with Geroge Martin....

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well step 1 is completed. Brown signs Leicester extension. Step 2, Steward moves to 12.

You joke but Steward and Potter mixed and matched between 13 and the wing at the weekend after Scott went off injured. Tigers are running short of fit centres so we could see one of Steward or Potter at centre on the weekend. Unsure if Gopperth can keep playing game after game as well, he might have to be rested at some point.

It's been brought up before. While I see it as crazy for England to try him at 12 o would love to see Leicester try it for us. Stuart Barnes has been banging the Steward's a midfielder for about 9 months.

If anything that makes me want to keep Steward at fullback.

SCW has also suggested Steward will be the long term option at 12.

Lol. I wouldn't want to see it for England until I knew he could play there, he does have some great skills that could transfer to 12, great running lines, great hands, obvious size. May be all at sea there though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. I wouldn't want to see it for England until I knew he could play there, he does have some great skills that could transfer to 12, great running lines, great hands, obvious size. May be all at sea there though.

Sometimes everything looks like it should work and it just doesn't, this could be one of them. I still feel Harry Mallinder could have a been a revelation at 12 if only he would tackle occasionally....I think he's currently playing in Japan???

Mallinder perhaps a warning around moving Steward too. Moved around shed loads, asked to cover fly half for a good while, tried at 12, 15, sure I saw him shunted to wing at a point in a game. Can't be fun to be moved so often. Injuries hit him too, which was a shame.

He played most of his U20 rugby at FH (Winning a WC of course) so a jump to 12 would seem like a pretty natural move really. He just didn't have the stomach/technique in defence from what I recall.