England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

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Continued......

Gleeson doesn't rate Smith from his previous comments anyway.

Headless chicken rugby and no scrum practice is a winning formula at international rugby...dont you know...

lol.

Does anyone actually think that Jones would have pulled this altogether for the World Cup as he seemed to be planning?

Geordie wrote:Does anyone actually think that Jones would have pulled this altogether for the World Cup as he seemed to be planning?

Never know but going on how England were under Jones last 12 months or so then no. In regards to winning RWC. There's coaching methods and also we have to be realistic about team, are they good enough players to beat SA, Ire, Fra, NZ? I'm not so sure. On a one off basis maybe but stringing together a run against top teams I don't know.

Announcement that LCD out of RWC due to shoulder injury.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66064492

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Does anyone actually think that Jones would have pulled this altogether for the World Cup as he seemed to be planning?

Never know but going on how England were under Jones last 12 months or so then no. In regards to winning RWC. There's coaching methods and also we have to be realistic about team, are they good enough players to beat SA, Ire, Fra, NZ? I'm not so sure. On a one off basis maybe but stringing together a run against top teams I don't know.

Personally yes we have the players that are good enough. I doubt we have the coaches to bring them together.

LCD officially ruled out of the WC due to his shoulder. Slightly surprised it's gone up to now. His name was being mentioned with Sale too given the break down of his move to France. Surely cements Blamire in the match day squads?

Blamire but I'd like to see Theo Dan get a chance, he's so dynamic.

Do England really have players to win RWC? Front row is what concerns me plus the age old 9/10/12/13 issue. Oh and wings. Hmm number 8?

best not to think about it really...

Yup, I'd say we comfortably have the players. but we've wasted so much time and frankly make some odd picks. Front had been a bit iffy hasn't it during the last days of Jones. See above for not bothering to do scrums in training (and all the comments saying wow Genge and Sinckler have become a bit iffy, comments about laziness etc), actually Borthwick in a few weeks turned that around and we had the strongest scrum (caveats on France down to 3rd loosehead).

9, well yes don't pick Youngs, actually pick Quirke. 10 Smith, but yes Borthwick is flip flapping. 12 well, yes don't pick Slade and Farrell as inside centres. 13 same ish pick Lawrence and be done. 8 Dombrandt and now Mercer. Wings, stop playing Malins. So while I agree there's lots of being underwhelmed it's because of crap picks and rubbish negative tactics.

Dont worry about Blamire. Cracking young player. He working hard on his areas to work on...but his strong areas a very good. Hes a big physical and yet mobile lad.

England's official Rugby World Cup 2023 training squad

Forwards (23)
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 45 caps)
Theo Dan (Saracens, uncapped)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 14 caps)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 15 caps)
Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 48 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 77 caps)
Jonny Hill (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 67 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 97 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 19 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 79 caps)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Tom Pearson (London Irish, uncapped)
Val Rapava-Ruskin (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 61 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 25 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 29 caps)
Jack Willis (Toulouse, 10 caps)
Tom Willis (Bordeaux Bègles, uncapped)

Backs (18)
Henry Arundell (London Irish, 7 caps)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 87 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 57 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 106 caps)
George Ford (Sale Sharks, 81 caps)
Max Malins (Saracens, 18 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 15 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 72 caps)
Cadan Murley (Harlequins, uncapped)
Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, 4 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 56 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 21 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 51 caps)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
Anthony Watson (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 122 caps)

Rehabilitation (5)
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 79 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 68 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, 3 caps)


IN: Farrell, Daly, Dan, Earl, George, Itoje, Malins (Sarries), T Curry, Tuilagi, Hill, Rodd, Ford (Sale), T Willis (Bordeaux), J Willis (Toulouse)

Out: Mercer, Dingwall, Feeman, F Smith, Dunn Ewels, Hayes, T Hill,

Some odd calls....

Tom Willis in....Mercer out??

Scrum halves...Care, Youngs and JVP

So no Mitchell or Quirke so 9s are Youngs, Care and JvP? FFS.
Mercer out!
T Hill out.
Hayes out.

I go by earlier comment, I don't think England have players to win RWC.

I mean Ben Youngs. Jesus. But no Vunipola is a good move.

Geordie wrote:Does anyone actually think that Jones would have pulled this altogether for the World Cup as he seemed to be planning?

Squidge Rugby did. He said after the Autumn New Zealand game, he'd seen enough to think Jones would have England in good shape fpr the tournament.

No Mitchell. No Mercer. Ben Youngs in.

At least Mako has been given the boot I guess.

Youngs. Still. Ffs.

At least Joe Marchant is there. He deserves to be in squad.

What's betting line up will include Youngs, Smith Farrell Manu at 9/10/12/13.

I suspect it'll be Youngs, Farrell, Manu, Slade which is depressing.

mountain man wrote:So no Mitchell or Quirke so 9s are Youngs, Care and JvP? FFS.
Mercer out!
T Hill out.
Hayes out.

I go by earlier comment, I don't think England have players to win RWC.

Really? You don't rate guys like Kelly, Quirke, Mitchell, Radwan, Hill?

Damn it, just read down to the rehab list, Mako is still there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:So no Mitchell or Quirke so 9s are Youngs, Care and JvP? FFS.
Mercer out!
T Hill out.
Hayes out.

I go by earlier comment, I don't think England have players to win RWC.

Really? You don't rate guys like Kelly, Quirke, Mitchell, Radwan, Hill?

Because they are not in squad! I was referring to training squad as announced.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:So no Mitchell or Quirke so 9s are Youngs, Care and JvP? FFS.
Mercer out!
T Hill out.
Hayes out.

I go by earlier comment, I don't think England have players to win RWC.

Really? You don't rate guys like Kelly, Quirke, Mitchell, Radwan, Hill?

Because they are not in squad! I was referring to training squad as announced.

So we don't have the players, or we don't have the coach?

I'll spell it out again.

In my opinion I don't think England have players in the announced RWC squad required to win.

If likes of Mitchell, Quirke etc been inc then I'd still have reservations although be more hopeful but as it stands no.

As for coach, too early to tell as Borthwick not had long enough but so far so not very good.

I don't wish injury on anyone, but it seems that the only way Youngs doesn't get picked will be because of injury, something that he's very good at avoiding.

Going to sit in the corner and slowly rock whilst trying not to cry...

mountain man wrote:I'll spell it out again.

In my opinion I don't think England have players in the announced RWC squad required to win.

If likes of Mitchell, Quirke etc been inc then I'd still have reservations although be more hopeful but as it stands no.

As for coach, too early to tell as Borthwick not had long enough but so far so not very good.

Well I agree with the first part. And not with the second. Borthwick has assembled a team to see him sacked after the 6Ns I reckon.

"We hope today's announcement is the start of something special for our supporters, who I know are eagerly anticipating the tournament as much as we are," said Borthwick. - Not so much no, Steve.

Well I said "so far so not very good"

If you disagree with that then you are saying Borthwick HAS done well? Dind't think you did....

Well it was the too early to tell bit. I don't think it's been good no, but it's the way we've gone to play more than results.

He's reinforced my fears and I think it's clear to see how he will play, which anywhere from 9 outwards isn't good enough. The pack for me has makings of a really good unit, but it's going to be a grind. We have a set of forwards who can do that to great effect but also actually play a bit, and I don't think they're going to get permission to do that. We'll grind teams down, should have enough for Argentina comfortably (should have had in the AIs though). Slight risk that if Argentina or Japan produce some magic moments we will come under pressure to turn things around. France, well they should match our forwards or be slightly better power stakes wise, they way they can just open up their game though will be too much for our kick and hope for a mistake tactics.

France more than a match for Eng forwards I think power wise. As will be SA.

Well potentially. I do think we have a group there who have the ability to front up physically. Just don't think there's any plan b.

1. Genge, Marler, VRR, Rodd (Mako)
2. George, Blamire, Dan (Walker)
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
4. Itoje, Martin
5. Hill, Ribbans (Chessum)
6. Lawes, Underhill, Ludlam
7. Curry, J. Willis, Pearson
8. Dombrandt, T.Willis, Earl (Billy)

9. Youngs, JVP, Care
10. Farrell, Ford, Smith
11. May, Murley, Cokanasiga
12. Tuilagi, Porter (Lawrence)
13. Slade, Marchant, Daly
14. Watson, Malins,
15. Steward, Arundell

Organised by position

Forwards (23)
LH: Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 48 caps), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 79 caps), Val Rapava-Ruskin (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped), Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
HK: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps), Theo Dan (Saracens, uncapped), Jamie George (Saracens, 77 caps)
TH: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 61 caps), Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 25 caps)
LK: Jonny Hill (Sale Sharks, 19 caps), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 67 caps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 97 caps), George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap), David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
FL: Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 45 caps), Ben Earl (Saracens, 15 caps), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 19 caps), Tom Pearson (London Irish, uncapped), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 29 caps), Jack Willis (Toulouse, 10 caps)
8: Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 14 caps), Tom Willis (Bordeaux Bègles, uncapped)

Backs (18)
SH: Danny Care (Harlequins, 87 caps), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 122 caps)
FH: Owen Farrell (Saracens, 106 caps), George Ford (Sale Sharks, 81 caps), Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 21 caps)
CN: Elliot Daly (Saracens, 57 caps), Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 15 caps), Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, 4 caps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 56 caps), Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 51 caps)
WG: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 14 caps), Max Malins (Saracens, 18 caps), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 72 caps), Cadan Murley (Harlequins, uncapped), Anthony Watson (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps)
FB: Henry Arundell (London Irish, 7 caps), Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)

Rehabilitation (5)
LH: Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 79 caps)
HK: Jack Walker (Harlequins, 3 caps)
LK: Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
8: Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 68 caps)
CN: Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)

What's the likely final squad composition? 33 players should allow for 3 players who can cover each specialist position, but that then places a premium on players who can cover multiple of the other positions:
LH 3 - 2 to drop out, depending on Mako's fitness. Genge is secure but the rest is up in the air.
HK 3 - probably one of Walker or Dan to drop out, which may be moot if Walker isn't fit in time
TH 3 - barring injury, looks like those are the three to go
LK 4 - 2 to drop out assuming Chessum is fit in time
FL 3 - if we assume Ludlam is cover for no 8, then 2 to drop out (though there's also a scenario where they keep an extra lock and take Lawes as a flanker)
8 3 - Dombrandt, Willis and Ludlam look pretty safe unless Billy recovers form and fitness.
(19)

SH 3 - barring injury, that's yer lot
FH 3 - ditto
CN  3 - 3 to drop out across centre and wing. Cover for 12 is a bit light (though alleviated if Lawrence recovers), and several of these players can play wing
WG 3 - Probably the most contested spot, and genuinely hard to call. I suspect that the group I would select is not going to be what Borthwick selects.
FB 3 - my guess is that Watson will be viewed as the 3rd FH cover. Please not Daly...  
(14)

Mitchell gone. Freeman not being in there is a shame ditto Mercer.

On the upside VRR is still in there and good to see T Willis in.

New one - https://www.606v2.com/t71132-england-2023-post-6n-and-beyond-prep-for-wc#4093966