England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Continued......

formerly known as Sam wrote:The NZ scrum isn't what it was. There's some young talent coming through for them that could improve it.

On the most recent episode of The Breakdown, the panel agreed New Zealand could do with more depth in props and locks.

Rugby Fan wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:The NZ scrum isn't what it was. There's some young talent coming through for them that could improve it.

On the most recent episode of The Breakdown, the panel agreed New Zealand could do with more depth in props and locks.

A quick phone call to Pacific Islands soon resolve that....

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scrum improved a lot. I've expressed my surprise previously that despite having a big name scrum coach they weren't actually doing much if any training on it and certainly not specific training on opposition. Lineout was ok, maul could have been a lot better and that's certainly an area Borthwick excelled at previously coaching wise.

And that's still where my optimism leaves me. But it's early days for an extremely callow coaching team.

My concern is England just doesn't have front row that can compete and beat with best in world. Genge scrummaging has improved a lot over the years but Sinckler got worse as has Mako and Cole bought back in doesn't fill me with confidence.
Whichever way you look at it, can Eng scrum compete with SA, France and probably NZ? I have severe doubts.

Granted the French were depleted but we took them to town this 6Ns. Think Sinckler and Genge are both very good scrummagers, the talk about the coaches leaving them to turn up on the day and sort it out...well frankly that's appalling and very remiss of Jones and particularly Proudfoot.

Did we? Maybe I'm not remembering correctly but despite France having 3rd choice prop I thought they'd dominated Eng scrum.

Happy to be corrected.

Am I think Ireland then? It's part of my new therapy process to try and forget England games as quickly as possible now but I had a thought stuck that scrum was the only area we had consistently the upper hand. Think there was 1 dodgy pen against Genge but the rest was us... happy to be corrected if I've just invented a happy place though.

We did ok in scrum it was just everything else was sh*t. We could put out a good pack with a an exceptional backrow if we went for it. Who's going to replace chessum and who are are impact front row subs?

Yoda wrote:We did ok in scrum it was just everything else was sh*t. We could put out a good pack with a an exceptional backrow if we went for it. Who's going to replace chessum  and who are are impact front row subs?

Ribbans in for Chessum. Stuart will come back in for Cole, Stuart being injured for the 6N. Loosehead on the bench is a question but hopefully VRR gets a go. Martin might well take Isiekwe's spot on the bench as it maintains the 19 shirt being able to cover lock and 6 but adds quite a bit more physicality.

Rapava-Ruskin really does deserve a game or 2 to show what he can do.

100% on VRR, he has to be involved in at least the training squad. I don't think our stable of props are too bad really.

TH - Sinckler, Stuart, Cole, Heyes
LH - Genge, Mako, VRR, Marler

On the tighthead, I think Stuart has started to fill some of his potential....Heyes will come good at some point in the near future with Cole moving out.

On the Loosie....Marler or/and Mako to go for another year or two at least with VRR hopefully stepping up.

That gives us at least another 2 years or so for some of the youngsters to kick on a bit.

Bringing on VRR, Stuart and LCD from the bench after 50mins is quite impressive really.

Well sorry to be the downer but does everyone think Cole and Mako up to Int scrum? Will Marler even be in RWC squad?

I agree VRR needs to be in mix and a fit Stuart be an asset.

Given how team went in 6N Borthwick needs to develop for 2027 as realistically SF best can hope for this year but who knows.

A lot depends on whether Marler's exclusion from the 6N squad (reportedly for sledging in the scrum) was a period on the naughty step or permanent. If Borthwick includes him in the training squad, I'd expect him to travel. VRR is a talented prop, but the setpiece step up at international level is huge and very few props in the men's game can make the jump in one season [1] - throwing him into an RWC with no international experience would seem a very un-Borthwick-like risk.

Marler's likely to retire permanently from international rugby after the RWC anyway - he's signed what has been billed as a contract to see out his career at Quins. One last hurrah on the biggest stage, in a tournament that's close enough he can get a helicopter ride home between matches if he feels homesick, is likely to bring out the best in him.

You'd also hope that Sinckler will be fired up and looking to finish the unfinished business he has from the last final. I'd prefer Stuart to Heyes (in a similar position to VRR) or Cole (still good in the setpiece but as someone said above, exposed in the loose).

The larger squad size probably means they can carry 3 full front rows this time, so there's room for options.

[1] The women's game is very different - there are a whole load of props who made successful debuts in their teens. Probably a function of the relatively small pool of players in the pro game and women finishing their physical development earlier than men.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:100% on VRR, he has to be involved in at least the training squad. I don't think our stable of props are too bad really.

TH - Sinckler, Stuart, Cole, Heyes
LH - Genge, Mako, VRR, Marler

On the tighthead, I think Stuart has started to fill some of his potential....Heyes will come good at some point in the near future with Cole moving out.

On the Loosie....Marler or/and Mako to go for another year or two at least with VRR hopefully stepping up.

That gives us at least another 2 years or so for some of the youngsters to kick on a bit.

Bringing on VRR, Stuart and LCD from the bench after 50mins is quite impressive really.

Well hopefully we'll see alot more of Brantingham next season and will get an idea if he is what he hope potentially or not. He's shown up alright in the few games this season.

mountain man wrote:Well sorry to be the downer but does everyone think Cole and Mako up to Int scrum? Will Marler even be in RWC squad?

I agree VRR needs to be in mix and a fit Stuart be an asset.

Given how team went in 6N Borthwick needs to develop for 2027 as realistically SF best can hope for this year but who knows.

If he's aiming at 27, and the RFUs thresholds of achievement match that ambition heads need to roll.

I would hope he targets every comp be it RWC, 6N etc rather than doing an Eddie and saying everything all in for RWC but I think given how team performed in 6N and before and level of opposition currently - Ireland, France, SA look extremely good - then chances of success at RWC2023 not great. By 2027 assuming Borthwick still in job he'll have had plenty time to develop team and build new one as several current squad be gone by then.

I don't think we stand a great chance at the WC but I've seen pretty rank teams across sports win cups. For me the outcome of individual comps or one off games is by the by but England need to be consistently contesting at the highest level. I'm not sure I'm expecting a step up this next set of games as so far not rating the set up, but it will let us know the direction of travel. There won't be any excuse around fitness or time with players, not being able to pick exactly who he wants etc, it's all on him.

Then into the 6Ns, where we have to be going into the last weekend knowing we can win the thing.

I'm really not a fan of what he's done so far, and I know there's the short notice caveat and depending on who's given the update his hands were either tied re elite squad (inside window) or he was giving the majority of the existing squad a go, but it's too much the same approach as Jones.

Given Jones was in the end given the push as the RFU decided aiming for the WC with less of an eye on the other games wasn't the right way to go I have a hard time thinking he will be allowed too much leeway on the way to 2027. I also think we have a group of massively talented players who the coaches are not getting the best out of. If Borthwick is set on his own particular brand of rugby then really come out and say it and pick a squad specifically to do that job, I won't like it particularly but it would show some cojones.

A last point as well, Borthwick has been picked to avoid situations like the one described above. He's worked within the England side as a top player and coach. He's coached in the league, and obviously won it. He's there as the identified next guy, long term planned not on a wing and a prayer. This is all about not losing any momentum, not having any period of stocktaking. This is the main man.

Nowell has ruled himself out of selection for England and the WC.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nowell has ruled himself out of selection for England and the WC.

To be brutal, not a great loss. His time gone now. Get proper pace on wings.

Nowell has in past been very good. Past though.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The scrum dealt with everyone bar perhaps France at times in the 6N. Can anyone deal with the SA scrum when it's in full force? I would suggest not.....it's the best in the world. NZ scrum is nothing to get worried about really.

The scrum has changed massively in recent years. It's very rare to dominate against the head at international level now. Even when it does happen there is usually something illegal going on that is picked up on in analysis so can't be repeated. Genge against Furlong in 2022 is a perfect example of that.

The 2019 RWC final is the simplest example of the scrum being an easy focus that distracts from the actual problem. England had 3 scrums, won all 3 and were awarded 1 penalty. 100% retention and a pen every 3 scrum put ins. The Boks had 11 put ins, won all 11 and were awarded 4 penalties. 100% retention and basically a penalty every 3 scrum put ins.

The difference being the 11 put ins which came about due to England's atrocious error count in open play. Even if England don't give away those penalties, which almost never happens when one side gets lots of put ins, they would still get pumped given the error count was high enough for the opposition to get 11 feeds.

I think it's an area that many England fans have an outdated view of. Ireland in recent times have switched Porter to LH pretty far along in his career accepting that it could impact the scrum but backing his loose work to counteract that. Healy has scrummaged at TH for Leinster when it facilitates them just getting the pest players on the pitch. He also scrummaged at hooker in the Six Nations of course. Bealham I think is a cracking prop but hardly a scrummaging powerhouse. Many French fans argue that Aldegheri is their best scrummaging TH but Atonio seems to be first choice and Falatea is being used as a specialist replacement for his impact in the loose.

I think Stuart should come straight back onto the bench when fit. His performances before injury were really improving. I'd also recall Marler but honestly for his defensive work just as much as set-piece.

Overall I really don't think props are an issue though and the scrum was good in the Six Nations. It just feels that some fans will only accept the scrum as being good when they have an unrealistic dominance that doesn't really exist in the international game anymore.

Thinking of proper pace, Adam Radwan in Barbarians squad for match against World XV on Sunday.

[quoteIt just feels that some fans will only accept the scrum as being good when they have an unrealistic dominance that doesn't really exist in the international game anymore.][/quote]

Apart from SA.

How often do even the Boks dominate against the head though? Which is the entire thrust of the point in that post. Once you're giving a side enough scrum put ins for them to be regularly converting them to penalties then your error count must be so high you're likely screwed already.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nowell has ruled himself out of selection for England and the WC.

No loss at all....

king_carlos wrote:How often do even the Boks dominate against the head though? Which is the entire thrust of the point in that post. Once you're giving a side enough scrum put ins for them to be regularly converting them to penalties then your error count must be so high you're likely screwed already.

Yes-ish. Scrum stats don't tell the whole story, though. A team can win its put ins but be under sufficient pressure that they're scrambling even though they get the ball back. And a dominant pack will usually be fresher and more composed than their opposition. Both of those can be a driver of the error count from the weaker side.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nowell has ruled himself out of selection for England and the WC.

To be brutal, not a great loss. His time gone now. Get proper pace on wings.

Nowell has in past been very good. Past though.

One of the most fun players to watch back in the day but not enough pace anymore.

lostinwales wrote:

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nowell has ruled himself out of selection for England and the WC.

To be brutal, not a great loss. His time gone now. Get proper pace on wings.

Nowell has in past been very good. Past though.

One of the most fun players to watch back in the day but not enough pace anymore.

It's a shame, but age and injuries take a toll. Seems clear his head is still in it, but seems he has lost that top edge speed and quickness. Unfortunately an everyday part of life in sport, but always a shame none the less.

And he knew how to bind on the side of a scrum!

It just occurred to me that given Marler is a) not injured, b) has featured prominently on the BaaBaas advertising but c) hasn’t been anywhere near the actual squad, he could well be one of the 70 players Borthwick reportedly embargoed from playing. Anyone else we’d have expected to be part of that squad who’s conspicuous by their absence?

Poorfour wrote:

king_carlos wrote:How often do even the Boks dominate against the head though? Which is the entire thrust of the point in that post. Once you're giving a side enough scrum put ins for them to be regularly converting them to penalties then your error count must be so high you're likely screwed already.

Yes-ish. Scrum stats don't tell the whole story, though. A team can win its put ins but be under sufficient pressure that they're scrambling even though they get the ball back. And a dominant pack will usually be fresher and more composed than their opposition. Both of those can be a driver of the error count from the weaker side.

A fair point but over a decent number of games, i.e. a full Six Nations, I think retention gives a good indicator of how much a scrum is under pressure.

On the dominant pack being fresher point I think that has been mitigated by 5 forward subs. A side with decent depth should be changing 4 of their starting tight 5 in the second half.

Unfit forwards will definitely struggle from the impact scrummaging knocking into loose play and vice versa. Realistically though unfit forwards are just going to struggle in every aspect though. See England at times in the Six Nations!

The Boks definitely benefitted from that point you make in 2019 when the bomb squad was first introduced. That's a really extreme example though given I don't think any other side has had that sort of tight five depth as they did there with everyone fit. It was legitimately two world class tight fives. Since suffering more injuries even that same Boks side haven't had that sort of impact from a fresher pack as often more recently. Enticingly and worryingly those tight five stars do seem to be getting fit again though to be fair.

Poorfour wrote:It just occurred to me that given Marler is a) not injured, b) has featured prominently on the BaaBaas advertising but c) hasn’t been anywhere near the actual squad, he could well be one of the 70 players Borthwick reportedly embargoed from playing. Anyone else we’d have expected to be part of that squad who’s conspicuous by their absence?

That struck me too. I'd welcome a return for Marler.

Tom Willis and Zach Mercer as well I thought. It often feels that 'exile' players that are abroad a targets for those games as they're usually available and you can build the narrative around them being international class but not picked.

70 is a massive group of players though.

So will this be an England trial for Radwan? See how the other parts of his game hold up.

Or is he not remotely considered now.

Geordie wrote:So will this be an England trial for Radwan? See how the other parts of his game hold up.

Or is he not remotely considered now.

Suggestions from some media reports is that those being seriously considered weren't made available.

It might have been mentioned earlier in the thread....but does anyone know when the England WC Squad is likely to be announced?
Is Borthers waiting till after the weekend to see if there are any serious injuries etc.

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:So will this be an England trial for Radwan? See how the other parts of his game hold up.

Or is he not remotely considered now.

Suggestions from some media reports is that those being seriously considered weren't made available.

No harm to his chances putting in a big performance against Piuatau, Folau, Radradra, Nkosi, etc etc I guess.

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:So will this be an England trial for Radwan? See how the other parts of his game hold up.

Or is he not remotely considered now.

Suggestions from some media reports is that those being seriously considered weren't made available.

No harm to his chances putting in a big performance against Piuatau,  Folau, Radradra, Nkosi, etc etc I guess.

The "harm" is that just playing in the game delays his ability to join the camp by two weeks. Borthwick has to suck that up for the players in the Prem Final, but he's reportedly asked that the pool of players he's considering don't play in the BaaBaas game. That would imply Radwan has an outside chance at best of being called up.

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:So will this be an England trial for Radwan? See how the other parts of his game hold up.

Or is he not remotely considered now.

Suggestions from some media reports is that those being seriously considered weren't made available.

No harm to his chances putting in a big performance against Piuatau,  Folau, Radradra, Nkosi, etc etc I guess.

The "harm" is that just playing in the game delays his ability to join the camp by two weeks. Borthwick has to suck that up for the players in the Prem Final, but he's reportedly asked that the pool of players he's considering don't play in the BaaBaas game. That would imply Radwan has an outside chance at best of being called up.

Ditto Nic Dolly a favourite of Borthwick's at Leicester. Still, if you play an absolute blinder in such a high profile game there's a good chance you might yet get a look in.

Anyone seen the comments from Gleeson, just seen a screen shot so can't copy but he's not exactly complimentary on Smith.

Apropos of, well, almost nothing, but I'm wondering about player payments during the RWC. If players are selected to the England squad for the RWC, and are consequently away from home for the duration, but only get into a game or two (if any) do they receive just the game cheque for the games they play or some additional stipend of payment for being on the road for so long? I'm not thinking about what I assume is a standard daily compensation for food and entertainment, but proper compensation. Anyone know?

doctor_grey wrote:Apropos of, well, almost nothing, but I'm wondering about player payments during the RWC.  If players are selected to the England squad for the RWC, and are consequently away from home for the duration, but only get into a game or two (if any) do they receive just the game cheque for the games they play or some additional stipend of payment for being on the road for so long?  I'm not thinking about what I assume is a standard daily compensation for food and entertainment, but proper compensation.  Anyone know?

I'm not sure exactly for the RWC but the matchday payments are split more equally now in general. The 28-man reduced squad that stay together into matchday get equal payment since 2021 AFAIK during the Six Nations and AIs. In the past it was just the matchday 23.

Whenever players come on for 60 seconds there's always comments such as, "getting Arundell his match fee", during the Six Nations. To my knowledge since the EPS agreement came in players have never needed to get off the bench for the payment though.

My presumption would be that similar to the whole 28-man squad getting paid in regular games that the entire 33-man RWC squad will get paid equally for games they play.

Performance bonuses for clean sweeps in the AIs, winning the Six Nations, Grand Slams, successful tours, etc etc have been hefty in the past and I'd guess they may be split among those who featured in the games themselves. I'd also presume they've been cut drastically following covid though. It's not mentioned as often because of the Prem being a financial dumpster fire but the RFU isn't as flush as it should be either considering broadcast deals and Twickers prices!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone seen the comments from Gleeson, just seen a screen shot so can't copy but he's not exactly complimentary on Smith.

Guessing Gleeson the former attack coach? I can't find anything from a quick Google.

Where's it popped up for you?

I'd imagine that as a minimum players are paid for however long they spend from the time they spend in the training camp through to the tournament, and as king_carlos says the players collectively decided that everyone involved in the squad should be paid equally regardless of whether they got on the pitch or not.

It's a job, after all, and quite a high risk one.

As has been said, it isn't just the penalties you concede at the scrum that are the issue - if you are under pressure and going backwards then that affects what you are able to do with the ball.  England seem to have this idea that we are a big forward dominated side, that can beat other sides up front.  We haven't had a really strong scrum for a long time now and none of the tight 5 players available are in the Malherbe/Marx/Etzebeth mould.  Add in the fact that for whatever reasons our coaches don't want to pick the likes of Marler and VRR, parity is as much as we can expect against most teams and hope we don't get annihilated as we were by SA in the Autumn international.

Looking at the 6 Nations stats we won zero lineout steals.  If you have no edge at the scrum or lineout, then England need to be winning the breakdown and not missing tackles.  One table we did manage to top in the 6 Nations was missed tackles.  Suffice it to say, I don't have a lot of positivity about England's chances at the World Cup.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone seen the comments from Gleeson, just seen a screen shot so can't copy but he's not exactly complimentary on Smith.

Guessing Gleeson the former attack coach? I can't find anything from a quick Google.

Where's it popped up for you?

Twitter. The article is in the Telegraph.

Sharkey06 wrote:As has been said, it isn't just the penalties you concede at the scrum that are the issue - if you are under pressure and going backwards then that affects what you are able to do with the ball.  England seem to have this idea that we are a big forward dominated side, that can beat other sides up front.  We haven't had a really strong scrum for a long time now and none of the tight 5 players available are in the Malherbe/Marx/Etzebeth mould.  Add in the fact that for whatever reasons our coaches don't want to pick the likes of Marler and VRR, parity is as much as we can expect against most teams and hope we don't get annihilated as we were by SA in the Autumn international.

Looking at the 6 Nations stats we won zero lineout steals.  If you have no edge at the scrum or lineout, then England need to be winning the breakdown and not missing tackles.  One table we did manage to top in the 6 Nations was missed tackles.  Suffice it to say, I don't have a lot of positivity about England's chances at the World Cup.

England don't even bother to contest lineouts even when Lawes is fit and playing flanker so no surprise there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:As has been said, it isn't just the penalties you concede at the scrum that are the issue - if you are under pressure and going backwards then that affects what you are able to do with the ball.  England seem to have this idea that we are a big forward dominated side, that can beat other sides up front.  We haven't had a really strong scrum for a long time now and none of the tight 5 players available are in the Malherbe/Marx/Etzebeth mould.  Add in the fact that for whatever reasons our coaches don't want to pick the likes of Marler and VRR, parity is as much as we can expect against most teams and hope we don't get annihilated as we were by SA in the Autumn international.

Looking at the 6 Nations stats we won zero lineout steals.  If you have no edge at the scrum or lineout, then England need to be winning the breakdown and not missing tackles.  One table we did manage to top in the 6 Nations was missed tackles.  Suffice it to say, I don't have a lot of positivity about England's chances at the World Cup.

England don't even bother to contest lineouts even when Lawes is fit and playing flanker so no surprise there.

Competing in the air less to concentrate on maul defence isn't unusual at all now to be fair. La Rochelle have a terrific maul defence by largely doing that. France competed noticeably less with Woki injured too.

When refs cracked down on contact in the air and jumping across the line it made counter jumping far more difficult to do effectively without being penalised.

Scotland were so stuck in that thinking that they didn't start competing at the front when van der Flier was throwing in for instance!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone seen the comments from Gleeson, just seen a screen shot so can't copy but he's not exactly complimentary on Smith.

Guessing Gleeson the former attack coach? I can't find anything from a quick Google.

Where's it popped up for you?

Twitter. The article is in the Telegraph.

It'll be behind a paywall then. Any idea which article specifically? I'll try to get an archived version to read.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone seen the comments from Gleeson, just seen a screen shot so can't copy but he's not exactly complimentary on Smith.

Guessing Gleeson the former attack coach? I can't find anything from a quick Google.

Where's it popped up for you?

Twitter. The article is in the Telegraph.

It'll be behind a paywall then. Any idea which article specifically? I'll try to get an archived version to read.

Sorry no. Sounds like a wide ranging Gleeson interview (yes the guy who England purring). Basically intimates that Farrell is a better attacker than someone with a hop skip and a jump or someone who needs a big ball carrying 12.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone seen the comments from Gleeson, just seen a screen shot so can't copy but he's not exactly complimentary on Smith.

Guessing Gleeson the former attack coach? I can't find anything from a quick Google.

Where's it popped up for you?

Twitter. The article is in the Telegraph.

It'll be behind a paywall then. Any idea which article specifically? I'll try to get an archived version to read.

Sorry no. Sounds like a wide ranging Gleeson interview (yes the guy who England purring). Basically intimates that Farrell is a better attacker than someone with a hop skip and a jump or someone who needs a big ball carrying 12.

I've read the article. What he says is;

“To pull teams apart through shape, you have to be brave,” Gleeson says. “You have to be direct at times and you have to run into big men.

“You won’t get a more attack-minded player than Faz. Just because he doesn’t do a hop, skip and a jump and beat people himself, doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to attack. He’s not going to get the ball on his own 22, beat five people and score a try, but that doesn’t mean he’s not an attacking brain."

king_carlos wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Apropos of, well, almost nothing, but I'm wondering about player payments during the RWC.  If players are selected to the England squad for the RWC, and are consequently away from home for the duration, but only get into a game or two (if any) do they receive just the game cheque for the games they play or some additional stipend of payment for being on the road for so long?  I'm not thinking about what I assume is a standard daily compensation for food and entertainment, but proper compensation.  Anyone know?

I'm not sure exactly for the RWC but the matchday payments are split more equally now in general. The 28-man reduced squad that stay together into matchday get equal payment since 2021 AFAIK during the Six Nations and AIs. In the past it was just the matchday 23.

Whenever players come on for 60 seconds there's always comments such as, "getting Arundell his match fee", during the Six Nations. To my knowledge since the EPS agreement came in players have never needed to get off the bench for the payment though.

My presumption would be that similar to the whole 28-man squad getting paid in regular games that the entire 33-man RWC squad will get paid equally for games they play.

Performance bonuses for clean sweeps in the AIs, winning the Six Nations, Grand Slams, successful tours, etc etc have been hefty in the past and I'd guess they may be split among those who featured in the games themselves. I'd also presume they've been cut drastically following covid though. It's not mentioned as often because of the Prem being a financial dumpster fire but the RFU isn't as flush as it should be either considering broadcast deals and Twickers prices!

Poorfour wrote:I'd imagine that as a minimum players are paid for however long they spend from the time they spend in the training camp through to the tournament, and as king_carlos says the players collectively decided that everyone involved in the squad should be paid equally regardless of whether they got on the pitch or not.

It's a job, after all, and quite a high risk one.

Thanks gents. I didn't know (or remember) what the compensation packages were.

It makes more sense to have everyone in the training squad being paid. The alternative creates a tiered system amongst the players which could lead to serious discord in the squad. And this seems much fairer as well. And I hope it is how it will work for the RWC. Being away from home for 6,7,8 weeks is a strain, especially for players with young families.

Marcus Smith seems to be dividing opinions...

Be interesting to see the World Cup selections at 10 and even more so the following 6n!

Well Farrell was excellent today which possibly confuses things somewhat. I can't see him being a RWC winning 10 but he was far better than Ford today.
As for Smith, be interesting who Borthwick picks.

So finally the season concludes with an extra domestic final and many congrats to Sarries. I watched yesterday with mainly an England lens and was not disappointed. Farrell was superb. Ford was pretty decent too.Malins annoyingly excellent as I wanted him out of the England team and now I have having 2nd doubts. Manu had a couple of barnstorming runs, but was not perfect. In fact after one good carry Farrell stripped the ball off him from which Sarries got a 50/22 and then a score. Earl was also good and Beven Rodd showed amazing skills off the bench. His left handed pass that led to his own try was top notch.

And England are where England are....still with no idea as to the best team thanks to wasted Eddie Jones years. But we need to be pragmatic now and at least use the warm up matches to at least bed in our gun XV and to bed in key combos. Pick a side and back it.

For me it should be Farrell at 10, but who in the centres? Manu or Lawrence (player of the season) with Slade or Marchant? Steward at 15 and Watson on one wing.

For Argentina I would probably go with....

Genge
George
Sinckler
Ribbans
Itoje
Lawes
Curry
Earl
Mitchell
Farrell
Watson
Manu
Slade
Malins
Steward

Bench
Marler
Cowan-Dickie
Stuart
Chessum
Willis
Quirke
Ford
Daly